I also never said their fun was wrong you were saying people who want a balanced game that has good battle are wrong . So you are wrong on that
dnd did start from a war game another name for battle simulation or your just choosing to warp meaning for your own sake. . So wrong again
I can keep going if you want.
If you want a balanced game, go play Fourth Edition. Spellcasters were neutered, everyone had "powers", monks were psionic, and everyone had to have specific magic item bonuses or the math would literally break down. Or you can play Pathfinder 2nd edition, which is more like D&D 4.5 than most are willing to admit. Paizo poached some of the 4E design team to make it.
Balance with the current rules isn't bloody well possible; nor is it the point. If it were, the design team wouldn't be grading features on player satisfaction. What you want is directly at odds with the guiding design principles of the people making the game. Class identity and "feel" matters just as much, if not more, than the number totals. And as has already been pointed out, damage literally isn't everything. Every class has different defenses, movement modes, and utility that also need consideration. You claim to want balance, but you only talk about one variable in the equation.
It's asinine.
Shoot your monks. They have Deflect Missiles and Evasion, so give them a chance to use these features. Yes, they might want a Ki Point to throw whatever they catch back. That's something both the DM and player need to be cognizant of. Monks shouldn't be using Flurry of Blows every round. Why should they? They can make up to three attacks, including two with a versatile weapon, without a feat or fighting style, all while adding their Ability modifier to every damage roll. That's nothing to sneeze at. All things equal, a 5th-level fighter need Polearm Master and a glaive or halberd to outpace that by 1. Meanwhile, the monk gets to invest in something else. Its power isn't married to raw damage, and that's a big part of the class' appeal.
You desperately want to be right, but you aren't even having the same conversation as the rest of us.
Ok I think your misreading intent why don't we start over . why do you not want monk to be on par with other martials is it because of ss or some other reason?
does the fact that they nerfed ss have no effect on you ? or thematically do you just want them to be weak? just trying to understand your logic.
"Don't write so that you can be understood, write so that you can't be misunderstood." -William Howard Taft
Don't accuse someone else of misreading your intent. It's your job to effectively communicate your point. If someone else doesn't get it, it's because you screwed up your messaging.
That said, what does parity even look like to you?
I'm gonna just take that comment as an e hug, back at ya bro. any way so parity ,well for one I would like monks to have access to first level warrior feats like barb and fighter.
they currently cannot cause they all require mastery of a martial weapons which has been removed from monks.
2 either an increase in hit die or something like half proficiency gained into base ac .
3 add ma die back to weapons .
4 allow for use of weapon mastery just like fighter but only on the unarmed strikes.
5.stretch goal would be one more attack at level eleven, but I could live with it if they did the most of the rest .
I hate to break it to you, but you'll live with whatever they give you. Nobody is ending their existence over the next Player's Handbook.
Hell, you admit to liking the 3.5 monk. The 2014 monk is leagues better, for its system, and the most recent playtest is more than two months old. Feedback closed more than a month ago, and we'll get another one in about two months. At this point, the continued gnashing of teeth over this may as well be self-flagellation. But to address your points...
The several class groups no longer exists, and the Fighting Style feats as last written have the Fighting Style class feature as a prerequisite; it's only a Fighter thing at 1st-level.
Monks, IIRC, began as an offshoot of Cleric, so the Hit Die is fine, and this edition eschews stacking incremental bonuses.
If they do add it back in, lack of martial weapons wouldn't matter because the only options they can't use (Cleave, Graze, and Push) are gated behind heavy weapons.
No, this is silly, because they can already deal Force Damage.
I've stated publicly, several times, I would not be opposed to Flurry of Blows gaining an additional attack at 11th-level.
Personally, there's been enough outrage over the monk's AC that I have half a mind to opt for a Strength focus with Wisdom as the secondary statistic; just to see how it actually measures up. Stacking it is a sucker's bet at high levels anyway.
As far as I know, Monk was it's own class in 1E AD&D, I don't think it was in anything earlier. I still have my PHB to prove it, lol. They started at first level with 2d4 hit points (d4 hit die like magic-users) and 1d4 every level after that, ending with a whopping 18d4 at 17th level, it's level cap (45hp average before con bonus, which caps at +2 for an 18 con). At 17th level, they got 4 attacks at 8d4 each.
I think its first incarnation as its own class was there. The mystic in BECMI I am pretty sure came out later but its been 45 years so my memory isn't solid.
I'm going to posit that part of some folks' perception that Monks are weak and too limited in points stems entirely from their perception that Stunning Strike is the only thing worth using for a Monk. As such, those folks are likely inclined to blow points to try to stun enemies, even if the odds are against them, rather than taking advantage of other Monk features. Then when they've exhausted their options, they then blame the class itself for their poor play of it.
While I like what the Playtest has done so far, I'm expecting the next UA to add some bells and whistles to the class, just as they've added on to other classes with later UAs, particularly skill-based options. Fighters getting Tactical Mind and Studied Attack, Blade Warlocks getting a third attack, Wizards having an area of Expertise and schools getting free spells.
thats because of a combination of monk design flaws. which exasperate each other.
1) Ki is generally low
2) stunning strike bas very little competition, Ki has few uses, and most of offensive based ones replace an action while stunning strike is a free action.
3)most other uses of Ki are expensive
4)monk's base damage and contribution is very low. from 5+ (using FOB)
this comes together to mean, my damage is low, my offensive options are inefficient other than FOB, landing a stun is the only way my turn is not a net loss for the team.
they can just use FOB, and know they will underperform, or they can use stun and hope to beat the odds (though this might make them underperform even more if unlucky, or the fight takes extra rounds)
to be honest the whole thing comes together fairly poorly, in a way that isnt obvious to people who don't playtest/use the class after 5.
Mentzer’s BECMI was 83, and prior there wasn’t a monk outside of AD&D. The 1e monk was first iteration, then Mentzer wanted to do a western type monk, and then in 85 came the OA monk that is the predecessor for 5e (after 3, 3.5, and 4).
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I also never said their fun was wrong you were saying people who want a balanced game that has good battle are wrong . So you are wrong on that
dnd did start from a war game another name for battle simulation or your just choosing to warp meaning for your own sake. . So wrong again
I can keep going if you want.
If you want a balanced game, go play Fourth Edition. Spellcasters were neutered, everyone had "powers", monks were psionic, and everyone had to have specific magic item bonuses or the math would literally break down. Or you can play Pathfinder 2nd edition, which is more like D&D 4.5 than most are willing to admit. Paizo poached some of the 4E design team to make it.
Balance with the current rules isn't bloody well possible; nor is it the point. If it were, the design team wouldn't be grading features on player satisfaction. What you want is directly at odds with the guiding design principles of the people making the game. Class identity and "feel" matters just as much, if not more, than the number totals. And as has already been pointed out, damage literally isn't everything. Every class has different defenses, movement modes, and utility that also need consideration. You claim to want balance, but you only talk about one variable in the equation.
It's asinine.
Shoot your monks. They have Deflect Missiles and Evasion, so give them a chance to use these features. Yes, they might want a Ki Point to throw whatever they catch back. That's something both the DM and player need to be cognizant of. Monks shouldn't be using Flurry of Blows every round. Why should they? They can make up to three attacks, including two with a versatile weapon, without a feat or fighting style, all while adding their Ability modifier to every damage roll. That's nothing to sneeze at. All things equal, a 5th-level fighter need Polearm Master and a glaive or halberd to outpace that by 1. Meanwhile, the monk gets to invest in something else. Its power isn't married to raw damage, and that's a big part of the class' appeal.
You desperately want to be right, but you aren't even having the same conversation as the rest of us.
you are totally off here. Yeah 5e goes for feel and fantasy.
And monk players have been saying for years, the feel and fantasy of monk is off.
second, numbers matter no matter what your goal, thats why fireball being an 8d6 mattered. It helped create the 'feel' and fantasy of wizard.
use ranged attacks on your monks makes no sense. Not on a never will I ever, but more on a, generally ranged attacks are less damage, and generally a monk is within walking distance of a melee attack, and generally enemies would have disadvantage or AC cover loss making ranged attacks.
the reality is most times ranged attacks aren't a great option, and when they are, the monk is almost always a low value target. Also monk being the arrow guy is cool, but its an edge case of the feel and fantasy of the monk, which is to be very effective at close range combat.
Monks needs to be making FOB every round, 3 attacks is BASELINE for any shieldless martial, either through PAM or General TWF rules. And EVERY other martial has means of boosting their damage beyond the 3 attack baseline. divine favor, smite, blessed strikes, hunting mark, rage, brutal critical, dueling, twf, great weapon master. extra attack 2-3 That doesnt even count feats.
the 5e fighter or ranger doesnt need to invest in Pam to beat monk, they get twf, which is better or equal than monks unarmed attack until level 11. (or 5 in 5er)BUT they also have other built in damage boosters. And the monk is not free to invest in other things, they need wisdom and dex.
Also not counting feats makes no sense, if anything, monk should get high value out of feats, its completely on brand. But even considering no feat, the monk is still bad, because as previously mentioned other classes have built in ways to do more damage. Ranger level 5 twf in 5e has (2d6+4)*3 via HM. Fighter at level 6 will get another ASI, meaning (d6+5)*3 with 7% more damage from accuracy. paladin level 5 is (d6+d4+4)*3. Barbarian is (d6+6)*3 with 33% more damage via reckless attack. And monk only falls further after 5, this was the high point.
And this is in addition to being less survivable in and out of melee, than all these other classes.
and this is still the case in 5er, even worse in fact because oher martials have better utility via masteries and features
and none of this helps the fantasy or feel of monk. it may help the fantasy and feel of other classes, being able to say, I'm better than that guy over there.
Unarmed BA is essentially twf until much later, at which point other classes are off the map
The Brawler has a design note stating that magic items will be available for Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons. This fixes the accuracy gap between Unarmed Strikes and +1/+2/+3 weapons. And possible added rider effects from magic items.
With the dropping of the Weapon Mastery Flex, Spear and Quarterstaff now have better Masteries. Sap was already available on a 1d6 Mace, but is now also available on 1d8 Spear. Hitting a target with either of those will allow to the Monk to retreat while taking an Opportunity Attack with Disadvantage. I feel like this is sufficient for a Monk hit & run playstyle. I would prefer Topple or Push were also options, but they require additional rule changes that may not happen.
The Brawler has a design note stating that magic items will be available for Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons. This fixes the accuracy gap between Unarmed Strikes and +1/+2/+3 weapons. And possible added rider effects from magic items.
With the dropping of the Weapon Mastery Flex, Spear and Quarterstaff now have better Masteries. Sap was already available on a 1d6 Mace, but is now also available on 1d8 Spear. Hitting a target with either of those will allow to the Monk to retreat while taking an Opportunity Attack with Disadvantage. I feel like this is sufficient for a Monk hit & run playstyle. I would prefer Topple or Push were also options, but they require additional rule changes that may not happen.
withdrawing while being within 10 feet is essentially of no great relative value.
any martial that wants it has push and reach weapons, and can swap weapons as long as they have two attacks.
Also, monk's movement advantage is really not that great until very high levels. fighter has tactical shift now, and barbarian has base 40 feet movement along with extra movement when using rage, dancer can move as a BA, Ranger has zephyr strike.
The elephant in the room is everyone except maybe paladin has pretty good movement, and none of them have a real problem if they want to hit and run, other than monk who needs to get in unarmed range to begin with. (which essentially costs them 10 movement to hit and run versus reach)
overall 5er has improved most martials capabilities, versatility, and battlefield options(this is good). Except monk(this is bad). The old concepts for monk's strengths need to be re evaluated, And it needs to be reworked.
however they started late, AND they want to be lazy and keep it as similar to 5e as possible without reworking more than 3 subclasses. So it looks pretty Grim.
I think monk is going to end up as a homebrew class if you aren't a new player who doesnt know better.
Hard to surprise (disadvantage on rolls to surprise a monk, enatlies at higher level)
feather fall
when using a weapon, they cause +1 damage for every two levels (max +10)
Speed of 36
Base AC of 10, at 1st level, increases by 1 point fr every two levels (so 11 at 3rd, 12 at 5th, 13 at 7th, etc)
unaffected by diease at 2nd, unaffected by slow at 4th, unaffected by haste at 6th, unaffected by suggestion at 8th, unaffected by charm at 10th, unaffected by poison at 12th,
heal 1d6 points per long rest on demand
additional unarmed blow at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th
damage increases of +1 point per attack at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 20th levels.
Note, this does not include the use of Ki abilities.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
At level 11 PAM on a Fighter is doing 3d10 + d4 + Mod*4 Average 39 (Mod = +5)
At level 11 PAM on a Paladin is doing 2d10 + d4 + Mod*3 + 3d8, Average 42
At level 11 PAM on a Barbarian (while raging) is doing 2d10 + d4 + Mod*3 + 9, Average 37.5
At level 11 a Monk is doing 3d10 + Mod*3, or 4d10 + Mod*4, Average 31.5 or 42
Comparable, yes, but a Monk is giving up their bonus action mobility and defense in order to do so, while the Fighter and Paladin are relying on their heavy armour. and the Barbarian is halving most damage. If the Monk is using Step of the Wind to be mobile, or Patient Defense to not be too squishy, their damage drops down to 2d10 + Mod*2, or 21.
And those martials are doing that with their base class features. Your combat performance is not compromised if you choose the "wrong" subclass. With the GWM power feat they were even further ahead. Paladin can still smite on top of that (unless the "smite as bonus action spell" is retained).
A Warlock with Agonizing Blast is doing that 31.5 average at 120 feet, unless they take Spell Sniper in which case it becomes 180 feet (from the Expert UA).
An additional thing I can apply to my last post is the ability to create a customized “style” of unarmed combat that incorporates certain special attacks. Something not available to any other class because it relies on the way that Monks are trained and disciplined.
so all of the above is the *base* monk, and sub-classes would expand on that core basis — some might not even use Ki powers, for example.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I also never said their fun was wrong you were saying people who want a balanced game that has good battle are wrong . So you are wrong on that
dnd did start from a war game another name for battle simulation or your just choosing to warp meaning for your own sake. . So wrong again
I can keep going if you want.
If you want a balanced game, go play Fourth Edition. Spellcasters were neutered, everyone had "powers", monks were psionic, and everyone had to have specific magic item bonuses or the math would literally break down. Or you can play Pathfinder 2nd edition, which is more like D&D 4.5 than most are willing to admit. Paizo poached some of the 4E design team to make it.
Balance with the current rules isn't bloody well possible; nor is it the point. If it were, the design team wouldn't be grading features on player satisfaction. What you want is directly at odds with the guiding design principles of the people making the game. Class identity and "feel" matters just as much, if not more, than the number totals. And as has already been pointed out, damage literally isn't everything. Every class has different defenses, movement modes, and utility that also need consideration. You claim to want balance, but you only talk about one variable in the equation.
It's asinine.
Shoot your monks. They have Deflect Missiles and Evasion, so give them a chance to use these features. Yes, they might want a Ki Point to throw whatever they catch back. That's something both the DM and player need to be cognizant of. Monks shouldn't be using Flurry of Blows every round. Why should they? They can make up to three attacks, including two with a versatile weapon, without a feat or fighting style, all while adding their Ability modifier to every damage roll. That's nothing to sneeze at. All things equal, a 5th-level fighter need Polearm Master and a glaive or halberd to outpace that by 1. Meanwhile, the monk gets to invest in something else. Its power isn't married to raw damage, and that's a big part of the class' appeal.
You desperately want to be right, but you aren't even having the same conversation as the rest of us.
you are totally off here. Yeah 5e goes for feel and fantasy.
And monk players have been saying for years, the feel and fantasy of monk is off.
second, numbers matter no matter what your goal, thats why fireball being an 8d6 mattered. It helped create the 'feel' and fantasy of wizard.
use ranged attacks on your monks makes no sense. Not on a never will I ever, but more on a, generally ranged attacks are less damage, and generally a monk is within walking distance of a melee attack, and generally enemies would have disadvantage or AC cover loss making ranged attacks.
the reality is most times ranged attacks aren't a great option, and when they are, the monk is almost always a low value target. Also monk being the arrow guy is cool, but its an edge case of the feel and fantasy of the monk, which is to be very effective at close range combat.
Monks needs to be making FOB every round, 3 attacks is BASELINE for any shieldless martial, either through PAM or General TWF rules. And EVERY other martial has means of boosting their damage beyond the 3 attack baseline. divine favor, smite, blessed strikes, hunting mark, rage, brutal critical, dueling, twf, great weapon master. extra attack 2-3 That doesnt even count feats.
the 5e fighter or ranger doesnt need to invest in Pam to beat monk, they get twf, which is better or equal than monks unarmed attack until level 11. (or 5 in 5er)BUT they also have other built in damage boosters. And the monk is not free to invest in other things, they need wisdom and dex.
Also not counting feats makes no sense, if anything, monk should get high value out of feats, its completely on brand. But even considering no feat, the monk is still bad, because as previously mentioned other classes have built in ways to do more damage. Ranger level 5 twf in 5e has (2d6+4)*3 via HM. Fighter at level 6 will get another ASI, meaning (d6+5)*3 with 7% more damage from accuracy. paladin level 5 is (d6+d4+4)*3. Barbarian is (d6+6)*3 with 33% more damage via reckless attack. And monk only falls further after 5, this was the high point.
And this is in addition to being less survivable in and out of melee, than all these other classes.
and this is still the case in 5er, even worse in fact because oher martials have better utility via masteries and features
and none of this helps the fantasy or feel of monk. it may help the fantasy and feel of other classes, being able to say, I'm better than that guy over there.
Unarmed BA is essentially twf until much later, at which point other classes are off the map
Here is another shot at fixing Martial Arts to make it correct some of the monks problems and give the player more options on there turn.
1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons. You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn. Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property. Martial Arts Die. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This die changes as you gain Monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table. Martial Art Strikes. When you hit with an Unarmed Strike you may choose to use a lower die size for damage than your Martial Arts Die to also apply an effect to the target. The smallest die you may use is a d4. An effect can only be applied once per turn and only one effect can be applied with each attack. The effect begins after damage and any saving throws for the attack that applied the effect have been rolled. At level 1 in this class you only have access to the -1 die size effect by using a d4 for damage instead of your d6 Martial Arts Die. As your Martial Arts Die changes to a larger diesize you will gain access to more effects to apply by lowering the die size used. d12>d10>d8>d6>d4
-1 die size: can’t take reactions until the end of this turn.
-2 die sizes: grants advantage until the end of this turn.
-3 die sizes: 1d4 penalty on there next saving throw until the end of this turn.
-4 die sizes: takes an additional 1d6 force damage anytime they take damage until the end of this turn.
I also never said their fun was wrong you were saying people who want a balanced game that has good battle are wrong . So you are wrong on that
dnd did start from a war game another name for battle simulation or your just choosing to warp meaning for your own sake. . So wrong again
I can keep going if you want.
If you want a balanced game, go play Fourth Edition. Spellcasters were neutered, everyone had "powers", monks were psionic, and everyone had to have specific magic item bonuses or the math would literally break down. Or you can play Pathfinder 2nd edition, which is more like D&D 4.5 than most are willing to admit. Paizo poached some of the 4E design team to make it.
Balance with the current rules isn't bloody well possible; nor is it the point. If it were, the design team wouldn't be grading features on player satisfaction. What you want is directly at odds with the guiding design principles of the people making the game. Class identity and "feel" matters just as much, if not more, than the number totals. And as has already been pointed out, damage literally isn't everything. Every class has different defenses, movement modes, and utility that also need consideration. You claim to want balance, but you only talk about one variable in the equation.
It's asinine.
Shoot your monks. They have Deflect Missiles and Evasion, so give them a chance to use these features. Yes, they might want a Ki Point to throw whatever they catch back. That's something both the DM and player need to be cognizant of. Monks shouldn't be using Flurry of Blows every round. Why should they? They can make up to three attacks, including two with a versatile weapon, without a feat or fighting style, all while adding their Ability modifier to every damage roll. That's nothing to sneeze at. All things equal, a 5th-level fighter need Polearm Master and a glaive or halberd to outpace that by 1. Meanwhile, the monk gets to invest in something else. Its power isn't married to raw damage, and that's a big part of the class' appeal.
You desperately want to be right, but you aren't even having the same conversation as the rest of us.
you are totally off here. Yeah 5e goes for feel and fantasy.
And monk players have been saying for years, the feel and fantasy of monk is off.
second, numbers matter no matter what your goal, thats why fireball being an 8d6 mattered. It helped create the 'feel' and fantasy of wizard.
use ranged attacks on your monks makes no sense. Not on a never will I ever, but more on a, generally ranged attacks are less damage, and generally a monk is within walking distance of a melee attack, and generally enemies would have disadvantage or AC cover loss making ranged attacks.
the reality is most times ranged attacks aren't a great option, and when they are, the monk is almost always a low value target. Also monk being the arrow guy is cool, but its an edge case of the feel and fantasy of the monk, which is to be very effective at close range combat.
Monks needs to be making FOB every round, 3 attacks is BASELINE for any shieldless martial, either through PAM or General TWF rules. And EVERY other martial has means of boosting their damage beyond the 3 attack baseline. divine favor, smite, blessed strikes, hunting mark, rage, brutal critical, dueling, twf, great weapon master. extra attack 2-3 That doesnt even count feats.
the 5e fighter or ranger doesnt need to invest in Pam to beat monk, they get twf, which is better or equal than monks unarmed attack until level 11. (or 5 in 5er)BUT they also have other built in damage boosters. And the monk is not free to invest in other things, they need wisdom and dex.
Also not counting feats makes no sense, if anything, monk should get high value out of feats, its completely on brand. But even considering no feat, the monk is still bad, because as previously mentioned other classes have built in ways to do more damage. Ranger level 5 twf in 5e has (2d6+4)*3 via HM. Fighter at level 6 will get another ASI, meaning (d6+5)*3 with 7% more damage from accuracy. paladin level 5 is (d6+d4+4)*3. Barbarian is (d6+6)*3 with 33% more damage via reckless attack. And monk only falls further after 5, this was the high point.
And this is in addition to being less survivable in and out of melee, than all these other classes.
and this is still the case in 5er, even worse in fact because oher martials have better utility via masteries and features
and none of this helps the fantasy or feel of monk. it may help the fantasy and feel of other classes, being able to say, I'm better than that guy over there.
Unarmed BA is essentially twf until much later, at which point other classes are off the map
Monk needs changes.
No.
"No." amazing response. The way you stated absolutely no counter-argument is truly... something.
Here is a radical idea. I just thought of this on my way to work this morning so it might just be bad, so feel free to tell me so. But what if we just dissolve the Mercy Monk and put those subclass features (maybe not all but at least the Hands of Healing/Harm ones) on the base monk class.
I never liked the theme of Mercy monk, so I may be biased. But the mechanics are solid and fits not only the “living weapon” feel but also the “spiritual/prefer peace over violence but will fight when needed” feel. And be a benefit to the party as well with some minor healing.
Just a thought
Edit: So add Hand of Healing/Harm (change Harm damage type to unarmed damage type), Physician’s Touch (minus the give poisoned condition), Flurry of Healing and Harm. Maybe Hand of Ultimate Mercy, but probably not. And possibly add MA die back to weapons.
I mean, "no" is a great response to someone genuinely making the argument that two-weapon fighting is superior to a Monk's bonus strike. Let's look at that math.
At levels 1-3, the two-weapon Fighter/Ranger is swinging two d6 weapons per turn, that's 2-12 damage plus Mod*2. Meanwhile, the Monk is using a quarterstaff for 1d8 plus their 1d4 unarmed strike for...2-12 damage plus Mod*2. Equal damage.
At level 4, the Fighter/Ranger can take Dual Wielder to let them dual-wield d8 weapons, while the Monk takes +2 DEX. Let's say both started at a +3. The Fighter/Ranger now does 8-22 damage while the Monk does 10-20 damage. They average out the same.
Then at level 5, the Fighter/Ranger can do three d8 attacks, 12-33 (or 15-33 if they stuck with light weapons...). Meanwhile, the Monk does 15-34 due to higher modifier.
So yep, the Monk all but keeps pace with two-weapon fighting, with the advantage of Flurry of Blows. And remember, this is without OneD&D's Martial Arts die buff. Once you factor that in, the Monk outpaces a two-weapon fighter consistently, without the need for feat investment.
It really serves to drive home the point that when people say "Monk is inferior to [x] class with [y] feats", what they effectively mean is "[x] class needs feats to outpace Monk".
All you are proving here is monk is better than a class-less two weapon fighter, which duh? a character using their main class feature to do a thing is going to be better than a character not using any class features to do a thing.
In 5eR all martial lasses get features that boost their damage except for monk Fighter gets : Weapon Masteries, Fighting Style, Action Surge, and an Extra Feat/ASI at level 6 and 8, an Extra Attack at level 11 Barbarian gets : Weapon Masteries, Rage, Reckless Attack, Brutal Critical at level 9 Ranger gets : Weapon Masteries, Fighting Style, Hunter's Mark, Nature's veil, summoning spells Paladin gets : Weapon Masteries, Fighting Style, Divine Favor / Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Spirit Shroud And all of these can use all the martial feats
Monk gets : Weapon Masteries (if they sacrifice using their MA die for damage), and FoB. - they are barred from all the martial feats and get NOTHING else to increase their damage
Also arguing that Monk is equal to two-weapon fighting is still a weak argument (even if you did include other classes features) because pretty much nobody plays the other classes as two-weapon fighters beyond 5th level because every other fighting style is superior to it.
"keeping pace" with the weakest possible build for other martial classes does not mean monk is good, and fine.
Here, if you really want to argue that Monk is good. Here is a basic Barbarian build, taking the most obvious choices for the archtype not particularly optimized at 4 different levels that most campaign reach. Show me a monk that can match their damage, use any subclass you want:
Here is a radical idea. I just thought of this on my way to work this morning so it might just be bad, so feel free to tell me so. But what if we just dissolve the Mercy Monk and put those subclass features (maybe not all but at least the Hands of Healing/Harm ones) on the base monk class.
I never liked the theme of Mercy monk, so I may be biased. But the mechanics are solid and fits not only the “living weapon” feel but also the “spiritual/prefer peace over violence but will fight when needed” feel. And be a benefit to the party as well with some minor healing.
Just a thought
Edit: So add Hand of Healing/Harm (change Harm damage type to unarmed damage type), Physician’s Touch (minus the give poisoned condition), Flurry of Healing and Harm. Maybe Hand of Ultimate Mercy, but probably not. And possibly add MA die back to weapons.
The mechanics of the mercy monk are the most solid of any monk. I hope they keep a similar design strategy for future builds.
Do you mean to have these ideas as homebrew or for suggested revisions to the phb monk?
Your ideas are all good and there are also alot of other great ideas on these forums.
However there are so many ideas floating around i think the message to wotc on the next monk UA would not be coherant enough to warrant any change.
Spitballing ideas is fun, but for any meaningful changes to the monk, feedback has to be large in numbers and fairly uniform.
I think the best approach would be to do a vote and pick the top 3 or 4 ideas and then have everyone spam those ideas to wotc in the next monk (UA 8?) feedback survey. If we cant agree on what those top 3 or 4 things are, then we can fully expect more of the same dissapointing monk.
The most common ideas i have seen probably are:
1) more ki to start the game
2) more damage in melee (particularly starting at level 11) with an extra flurry of blows and/or adding martial arts die back to weapons
3) better defense in melee - through some combination of better unarmored AC, a parry manuever to reduce damage, or increased hit die
4) unclog the monks bonus action by moving one or both of the monks bonus action unarmed strikes to the attack action.
There are quite few other things like adding dex to monks save dc for grappling but those have been less common.
I dont know how to do votes on this forum. Would someone would someone like to get that started? And also perhaps add another two or three very simple high impact ideas that i may have missed?
I mean, "no" is a great response to someone genuinely making the argument that two-weapon fighting is superior to a Monk's bonus strike. Let's look at that math.
At levels 1-3, the two-weapon Fighter/Ranger is swinging two d6 weapons per turn, that's 2-12 damage plus Mod*2. Meanwhile, the Monk is using a quarterstaff for 1d8 plus their 1d4 unarmed strike for...2-12 damage plus Mod*2. Equal damage.
At level 4, the Fighter/Ranger can take Dual Wielder to let them dual-wield d8 weapons, while the Monk takes +2 DEX. Let's say both started at a +3. The Fighter/Ranger now does 8-22 damage while the Monk does 10-20 damage. They average out the same.
Then at level 5, the Fighter/Ranger can do three d8 attacks, 12-33 (or 15-33 if they stuck with light weapons...). Meanwhile, the Monk does 15-34 due to higher modifier.
So yep, the Monk all but keeps pace with two-weapon fighting, with the advantage of Flurry of Blows. And remember, this is without OneD&D's Martial Arts die buff. Once you factor that in, the Monk outpaces a two-weapon fighter consistently, without the need for feat investment.
It really serves to drive home the point that when people say "Monk is inferior to [x] class with [y] feats", what they effectively mean is "[x] class needs feats to outpace Monk".
It still has lower hp and AC. You keep pointing out that monk barely keeps up with other martials. While having lower HP and AC and no other class features to lean on that don’t draw from its offensive resource, and being so MAD that taking feats cripples you while fighter, ranger, paladin, and barbarian are free to use them.
2d6 plus 6 averages out at 13. 1d8 plus 1d4 plus 6 averages out at 13. Identical at those levels, though monk has essentially no ki to use. When it gets one additional d4+mod unarmed strike per short rest, fighter gets action surge.
At level 4, Monk has 17 AC. If the fighter is STR based, it has 17 also (if they haven’t found any magic armour), and if it’s DEX-based, it has 17. Fighter has action surge and second wind and higher HP. Fighter average DPR becomes 2d8+6, or 15. Monk becomes 1d8+1d4+8, or also 15. That’s assuming dual wielder, however. If the fighter took +2 DEX also, it edges out monk by two points while keeping the same AC.
At level 5, fighter becomes 3d6+12 (assuming the same ASIs previous level) or 22. Monk has 2d8+1d6+12, or 24.5. Same AC, but fighter has more HP. And action surge. Monk has 5 ki at this point, and access to stunning strike, but it has a Ki DC of only 14. Fighter can also attack at range without crippling itself.
Level 6. Fighter gets another ASI/feat. Monk gets magic unarmed strikes. Fighter will likely get a magic weapon at around this time, but I am not factoring that into these damage calculations. Fighter could increase DEX by +2. In that case, damage becomes 26. It also beats monk AC in addition to hit points. Monk has 6 ki, so it could flurry of blows for a single average combat, as long as it didn’t do anything else. It gets a subclass feature at this point, but I’m not counting those (even though it would only accelerate the fighter/monk disparity).
Level 7. Fighter subclass feature (not counted.) Monk gets evasion and stillness of mind - very neat, but unlikely to come up often at this level of play. No DPR change. It is important to mention that monk has fifteen feet of speed on fighter now, but with no cost-effective way to avoid opportunity attacks, it’s essentially irrelevant.
Level 8. ASI. Fighter can take a feat. Monk is stuck increasing its WIS or DEX because it either needs more AC or a better ki DC than 14 so it could actually stun anything. Options for feats include, funnily enough, mobile or dual wielder. Monk’s speed is now only 5ft greater, and fighter can avoid opportunity attacks and skirmish better than the monk can. If monk bumps DEX its DPR average increases to 27.5. Fighter with dual wielder gets 3d8+15, or 29. I sound like a broken record, but monk AC would then be one behind (with no magic items AT ALL at level 8) and its damage is behind, and it has lower health. Uh oh.
Level 9 does nothing.
Level 10. Fighter takes the other of dual wielder or mobile. Monk can run on liquids and walls. Yippee. It can still barely keep up with fighter damage wise and it’s very expensive to avoid opportunity attacks and stay out of melee while attacking.
Level 11. Fighter is now on 4d8+20, or 38. Monk has 3d8+12, or 26. No magic items or subclasses. Monk only has enough resources to keep up with fighter for a few rounds.
Level 12. ASI again. Monk can get to 29 damage or it can increase Ki DC. Fighter gets another feat. Amazing. It would probably end up being +2 CON or slasher, in which case fighter is still more manoeuvrable than monk. And can attack from range with much more effectiveness.
It only gets worse from there. Monk’s only meaningful DPR increase is the die size increase. Fighter gets more feats and damage boosting subclass features. Monk gets Diamond Soul, which is nice, but definitely defensive.
That’s also possibly the lowest damage output fighter build I’ve ever built intentionally. Ouch. You can’t actually get monk better than that. You can definitely get fighter better than that. Monk’s ceiling is fighter’s floor.
Here is a radical idea. I just thought of this on my way to work this morning so it might just be bad, so feel free to tell me so. But what if we just dissolve the Mercy Monk and put those subclass features (maybe not all but at least the Hands of Healing/Harm ones) on the base monk class.
I never liked the theme of Mercy monk, so I may be biased. But the mechanics are solid and fits not only the “living weapon” feel but also the “spiritual/prefer peace over violence but will fight when needed” feel. And be a benefit to the party as well with some minor healing.
Just a thought
Edit: So add Hand of Healing/Harm (change Harm damage type to unarmed damage type), Physician’s Touch (minus the give poisoned condition), Flurry of Healing and Harm. Maybe Hand of Ultimate Mercy, but probably not. And possibly add MA die back to weapons.
The mechanics of the mercy monk are the most solid of any monk. I hope they keep a similar design strategy for future builds.
Do you mean to have these ideas as homebrew or for suggested revisions to the phb monk?
Your ideas are all good and there are also alot of other great ideas on these forums.
However there are so many ideas floating around i think the message to wotc on the next monk UA would not be coherant enough to warrant any change.
Spitballing ideas is fun, but for any meaningful changes to the monk, feedback has to be large in numbers and fairly uniform.
I think the best approach would be to do a vote and pick the top 3 or 4 ideas and then have everyone spam those ideas to wotc in the next monk (UA 8?) feedback survey. If we cant agree on what those top 3 or 4 things are, then we can fully expect more of the same dissapointing monk.
The most common ideas i have seen probably are:
1) more ki to start the game
2) more damage in melee (particularly starting at level 11) with an extra flurry of blows and/or adding martial arts die back to weapons
3) better defense in melee - through some combination of better unarmored AC, a parry manuever to reduce damage, or increased hit die
4) unclog the monks bonus action by moving one or both of the monks bonus action unarmed strikes to the attack action.
There are quite few other things like adding dex to monks save dc for grappling but those have been less common.
I dont know how to do votes on this forum. Would someone would someone like to get that started? And also perhaps add another two or three very simple high impact ideas that i may have missed?
Anyone?
I mean for the updated PHB monk not homebrew. These are already features in the game so some balance is already there. And it doesn’t look like they will be making big changes anyway, if previous UA are any indication and for backwards compatibility. So something that is already in the game might be better than something new. But I’m hoping the revision will be better.
Thinking on it more I think it might be better if you take it out of FoB and just Hand of Healing and Harm when you take the Attack action and make an unarmed strike you can replace one unarmed strike to Heal (no DP, you are sacrificing damage to heal) or 1DP to Harm added to an unarmed strike. Later on you can replace both Attack action attacks to heal or harm without DP (heal) or the no DP once per turn (Harm)(harm, maybe with no DP at higher level) Not sure what levels to put these in. You can still use your BA attack or FoB either way. This way if you want to do all unarmed you get the damage boost (or heal) or if you want to use weapons (with MA die back on weapons) you can do that with Masteries, so it sort of balances out. I haven’t done numbers, at work so not a lot of time.
I agree there are a lot of ideas out there and I put in my comments on the survey. We will have to see how they react when we get the revisions in UA8.
Here is a radical idea. I just thought of this on my way to work this morning so it might just be bad, so feel free to tell me so. But what if we just dissolve the Mercy Monk and put those subclass features (maybe not all but at least the Hands of Healing/Harm ones) on the base monk class.
I never liked the theme of Mercy monk, so I may be biased. But the mechanics are solid and fits not only the “living weapon” feel but also the “spiritual/prefer peace over violence but will fight when needed” feel. And be a benefit to the party as well with some minor healing.
Just a thought
Edit: So add Hand of Healing/Harm (change Harm damage type to unarmed damage type), Physician’s Touch (minus the give poisoned condition), Flurry of Healing and Harm. Maybe Hand of Ultimate Mercy, but probably not. And possibly add MA die back to weapons.
The mechanics of the mercy monk are the most solid of any monk. I hope they keep a similar design strategy for future builds.
Do you mean to have these ideas as homebrew or for suggested revisions to the phb monk?
Your ideas are all good and there are also alot of other great ideas on these forums.
However there are so many ideas floating around i think the message to wotc on the next monk UA would not be coherant enough to warrant any change.
Spitballing ideas is fun, but for any meaningful changes to the monk, feedback has to be large in numbers and fairly uniform.
I think the best approach would be to do a vote and pick the top 3 or 4 ideas and then have everyone spam those ideas to wotc in the next monk (UA 8?) feedback survey. If we cant agree on what those top 3 or 4 things are, then we can fully expect more of the same dissapointing monk.
The most common ideas i have seen probably are:
1) more ki to start the game
2) more damage in melee (particularly starting at level 11) with an extra flurry of blows and/or adding martial arts die back to weapons
3) better defense in melee - through some combination of better unarmored AC, a parry manuever to reduce damage, or increased hit die
4) unclog the monks bonus action by moving one or both of the monks bonus action unarmed strikes to the attack action.
There are quite few other things like adding dex to monks save dc for grappling but those have been less common.
I dont know how to do votes on this forum. Would someone would someone like to get that started? And also perhaps add another two or three very simple high impact ideas that i may have missed?
Anyone?
I mean for the updated PHB monk not homebrew. These are already features in the game so some balance is already there. And it doesn’t look like they will be making big changes anyway, if previous UA are any indication and for backwards compatibility. So something that is already in the game might be better than something new. But I’m hoping the revision will be better.
Thinking on it more I think it might be better if you take it out of FoB and just Hand of Healing and Harm when you take the Attack action and make an unarmed strike you can replace one unarmed strike to Heal (no DP, you are sacrificing damage to heal) or 1DP to Harm added to an unarmed strike. Later on you can replace both Attack action attacks to heal or harm without DP (heal) or the no DP once per turn (Harm)(harm, maybe with no DP at higher level) Not sure what levels to put these in. You can still use your BA attack or FoB either way. This way if you want to do all unarmed you get the damage boost (or heal) or if you want to use weapons (with MA die back on weapons) you can do that with Masteries, so it sort of balances out. I haven’t done numbers, at work so not a lot of time.
I agree there are a lot of ideas out there and I put in my comments on the survey. We will have to see how they react when we get the revisions in UA8.
No-cost healing would be very easy to exploit over short rests.. although if it meant people actually took short rests and warlock and monk benefited from them, that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
I mean, "no" is a great response to someone genuinely making the argument that two-weapon fighting is superior to a Monk's bonus strike. Let's look at that math.
At levels 1-3, the two-weapon Fighter/Ranger is swinging two d6 weapons per turn, that's 2-12 damage plus Mod*2. Meanwhile, the Monk is using a quarterstaff for 1d8 plus their 1d4 unarmed strike for...2-12 damage plus Mod*2. Equal damage.
At level 4, the Fighter/Ranger can take Dual Wielder to let them dual-wield d8 weapons, while the Monk takes +2 DEX. Let's say both started at a +3. The Fighter/Ranger now does 8-22 damage while the Monk does 10-20 damage. They average out the same.
Then at level 5, the Fighter/Ranger can do three d8 attacks, 12-33 (or 15-33 if they stuck with light weapons...). Meanwhile, the Monk does 15-34 due to higher modifier.
So yep, the Monk all but keeps pace with two-weapon fighting, with the advantage of Flurry of Blows. And remember, this is without OneD&D's Martial Arts die buff. Once you factor that in, the Monk outpaces a two-weapon fighter consistently, without the need for feat investment.
It really serves to drive home the point that when people say "Monk is inferior to [x] class with [y] feats", what they effectively mean is "[x] class needs feats to outpace Monk".
Two-Weapon Fighting is a "trap" that rapidly falls behind Dueling with a shield. I'm not being compensated, here. If you want my best, give me a reason to think you deserve it.
Case in point...
Assuming two fighters both have a +3 modifier at 5th-level, which is low but not unreasonable, it's 19.5 (3d6+9) versus 19 (2d8+10). If they both have a +4 modifier, it's 22.5 (3d6+12) versus 21 (2d8+12). The difference of 1.5 DPR is negligible when you're (a) freeing up that bonus action and (b) carrying a shield for additional AC. And if they're using Action Surge to Attack a second time it becomes, let's say, 37.5 (5d6+20) versus 42 (4d8+24).
I reiterate, you and I aren't even having the same conversation.
Here is a radical idea. I just thought of this on my way to work this morning so it might just be bad, so feel free to tell me so. But what if we just dissolve the Mercy Monk and put those subclass features (maybe not all but at least the Hands of Healing/Harm ones) on the base monk class.
I never liked the theme of Mercy monk, so I may be biased. But the mechanics are solid and fits not only the “living weapon” feel but also the “spiritual/prefer peace over violence but will fight when needed” feel. And be a benefit to the party as well with some minor healing.
Just a thought
Edit: So add Hand of Healing/Harm (change Harm damage type to unarmed damage type), Physician’s Touch (minus the give poisoned condition), Flurry of Healing and Harm. Maybe Hand of Ultimate Mercy, but probably not. And possibly add MA die back to weapons.
The mechanics of the mercy monk are the most solid of any monk. I hope they keep a similar design strategy for future builds.
Do you mean to have these ideas as homebrew or for suggested revisions to the phb monk?
Your ideas are all good and there are also alot of other great ideas on these forums.
However there are so many ideas floating around i think the message to wotc on the next monk UA would not be coherant enough to warrant any change.
Spitballing ideas is fun, but for any meaningful changes to the monk, feedback has to be large in numbers and fairly uniform.
I think the best approach would be to do a vote and pick the top 3 or 4 ideas and then have everyone spam those ideas to wotc in the next monk (UA 8?) feedback survey. If we cant agree on what those top 3 or 4 things are, then we can fully expect more of the same dissapointing monk.
The most common ideas i have seen probably are:
1) more ki to start the game
2) more damage in melee (particularly starting at level 11) with an extra flurry of blows and/or adding martial arts die back to weapons
3) better defense in melee - through some combination of better unarmored AC, a parry manuever to reduce damage, or increased hit die
4) unclog the monks bonus action by moving one or both of the monks bonus action unarmed strikes to the attack action.
There are quite few other things like adding dex to monks save dc for grappling but those have been less common.
I dont know how to do votes on this forum. Would someone would someone like to get that started? And also perhaps add another two or three very simple high impact ideas that i may have missed?
Anyone?
I mean for the updated PHB monk not homebrew. These are already features in the game so some balance is already there. And it doesn’t look like they will be making big changes anyway, if previous UA are any indication and for backwards compatibility. So something that is already in the game might be better than something new. But I’m hoping the revision will be better.
Thinking on it more I think it might be better if you take it out of FoB and just Hand of Healing and Harm when you take the Attack action and make an unarmed strike you can replace one unarmed strike to Heal (no DP, you are sacrificing damage to heal) or 1DP to Harm added to an unarmed strike. Later on you can replace both Attack action attacks to heal or harm without DP (heal) or the no DP once per turn (Harm)(harm, maybe with no DP at higher level) Not sure what levels to put these in. You can still use your BA attack or FoB either way. This way if you want to do all unarmed you get the damage boost (or heal) or if you want to use weapons (with MA die back on weapons) you can do that with Masteries, so it sort of balances out. I haven’t done numbers, at work so not a lot of time.
I agree there are a lot of ideas out there and I put in my comments on the survey. We will have to see how they react when we get the revisions in UA8.
It does seem as if backwards compatability is a higher priority than reworking overall design to improve class function. If a new feature is not well recieved the first time, wotc's response seems to be "lets go back to the way it was" rather than come up with other alternatives. If mercy monk is part of the new phb then how likely is it they will move some of mercy monks features to the core monk? I dont know.
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I think its first incarnation as its own class was there. The mystic in BECMI I am pretty sure came out later but its been 45 years so my memory isn't solid.
thats because of a combination of monk design flaws. which exasperate each other.
1) Ki is generally low
2) stunning strike bas very little competition, Ki has few uses, and most of offensive based ones replace an action while stunning strike is a free action.
3)most other uses of Ki are expensive
4)monk's base damage and contribution is very low. from 5+ (using FOB)
this comes together to mean, my damage is low, my offensive options are inefficient other than FOB, landing a stun is the only way my turn is not a net loss for the team.
they can just use FOB, and know they will underperform, or they can use stun and hope to beat the odds (though this might make them underperform even more if unlucky, or the fight takes extra rounds)
to be honest the whole thing comes together fairly poorly, in a way that isnt obvious to people who don't playtest/use the class after 5.
Mentzer’s BECMI was 83, and prior there wasn’t a monk outside of AD&D. The 1e monk was first iteration, then Mentzer wanted to do a western type monk, and then in 85 came the OA monk that is the predecessor for 5e (after 3, 3.5, and 4).
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
you are totally off here. Yeah 5e goes for feel and fantasy.
And monk players have been saying for years, the feel and fantasy of monk is off.
second, numbers matter no matter what your goal, thats why fireball being an 8d6 mattered. It helped create the 'feel' and fantasy of wizard.
use ranged attacks on your monks makes no sense. Not on a never will I ever, but more on a, generally ranged attacks are less damage, and generally a monk is within walking distance of a melee attack, and generally enemies would have disadvantage or AC cover loss making ranged attacks.
the reality is most times ranged attacks aren't a great option, and when they are, the monk is almost always a low value target. Also monk being the arrow guy is cool, but its an edge case of the feel and fantasy of the monk, which is to be very effective at close range combat.
Monks needs to be making FOB every round, 3 attacks is BASELINE for any shieldless martial, either through PAM or General TWF rules. And EVERY other martial has means of boosting their damage beyond the 3 attack baseline. divine favor, smite, blessed strikes, hunting mark, rage, brutal critical, dueling, twf, great weapon master. extra attack 2-3 That doesnt even count feats.
the 5e fighter or ranger doesnt need to invest in Pam to beat monk, they get twf, which is better or equal than monks unarmed attack until level 11. (or 5 in 5er)BUT they also have other built in damage boosters. And the monk is not free to invest in other things, they need wisdom and dex.
Also not counting feats makes no sense, if anything, monk should get high value out of feats, its completely on brand. But even considering no feat, the monk is still bad, because as previously mentioned other classes have built in ways to do more damage. Ranger level 5 twf in 5e has (2d6+4)*3 via HM. Fighter at level 6 will get another ASI, meaning (d6+5)*3 with 7% more damage from accuracy. paladin level 5 is (d6+d4+4)*3. Barbarian is (d6+6)*3 with 33% more damage via reckless attack. And monk only falls further after 5, this was the high point.
And this is in addition to being less survivable in and out of melee, than all these other classes.
and this is still the case in 5er, even worse in fact because oher martials have better utility via masteries and features
and none of this helps the fantasy or feel of monk. it may help the fantasy and feel of other classes, being able to say, I'm better than that guy over there.
Unarmed BA is essentially twf until much later, at which point other classes are off the map
Monk needs changes.
Switching to good news from UA7.
The Brawler has a design note stating that magic items will be available for Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons. This fixes the accuracy gap between Unarmed Strikes and +1/+2/+3 weapons. And possible added rider effects from magic items.
With the dropping of the Weapon Mastery Flex, Spear and Quarterstaff now have better Masteries. Sap was already available on a 1d6 Mace, but is now also available on 1d8 Spear. Hitting a target with either of those will allow to the Monk to retreat while taking an Opportunity Attack with Disadvantage. I feel like this is sufficient for a Monk hit & run playstyle. I would prefer Topple or Push were also options, but they require additional rule changes that may not happen.
withdrawing while being within 10 feet is essentially of no great relative value.
any martial that wants it has push and reach weapons, and can swap weapons as long as they have two attacks.
Also, monk's movement advantage is really not that great until very high levels. fighter has tactical shift now, and barbarian has base 40 feet movement along with extra movement when using rage, dancer can move as a BA, Ranger has zephyr strike.
The elephant in the room is everyone except maybe paladin has pretty good movement, and none of them have a real problem if they want to hit and run, other than monk who needs to get in unarmed range to begin with. (which essentially costs them 10 movement to hit and run versus reach)
overall 5er has improved most martials capabilities, versatility, and battlefield options(this is good). Except monk(this is bad). The old concepts for monk's strengths need to be re evaluated, And it needs to be reworked.
however they started late, AND they want to be lazy and keep it as similar to 5e as possible without reworking more than 3 subclasses. So it looks pretty Grim.
I think monk is going to end up as a homebrew class if you aren't a new player who doesnt know better.
“Superhero power fantasies in a fantasy world”
Curious how this set up seems to you:
missle deflection
Move silently
Hear Noise
Hide in Shadows
Climb walls
Hard to surprise (disadvantage on rolls to surprise a monk, enatlies at higher level)
feather fall
when using a weapon, they cause +1 damage for every two levels (max +10)
Speed of 36
Base AC of 10, at 1st level, increases by 1 point fr every two levels (so 11 at 3rd, 12 at 5th, 13 at 7th, etc)
unaffected by diease at 2nd, unaffected by slow at 4th, unaffected by haste at 6th, unaffected by suggestion at 8th, unaffected by charm at 10th, unaffected by poison at 12th,
heal 1d6 points per long rest on demand
additional unarmed blow at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th
damage increases of +1 point per attack at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 20th levels.
Note, this does not include the use of Ki abilities.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
At level 11 PAM on a Fighter is doing 3d10 + d4 + Mod*4 Average 39 (Mod = +5)
At level 11 PAM on a Paladin is doing 2d10 + d4 + Mod*3 + 3d8, Average 42
At level 11 PAM on a Barbarian (while raging) is doing 2d10 + d4 + Mod*3 + 9, Average 37.5
At level 11 a Monk is doing 3d10 + Mod*3, or 4d10 + Mod*4, Average 31.5 or 42
Comparable, yes, but a Monk is giving up their bonus action mobility and defense in order to do so, while the Fighter and Paladin are relying on their heavy armour. and the Barbarian is halving most damage. If the Monk is using Step of the Wind to be mobile, or Patient Defense to not be too squishy, their damage drops down to 2d10 + Mod*2, or 21.
And those martials are doing that with their base class features. Your combat performance is not compromised if you choose the "wrong" subclass. With the GWM power feat they were even further ahead. Paladin can still smite on top of that (unless the "smite as bonus action spell" is retained).
A Warlock with Agonizing Blast is doing that 31.5 average at 120 feet, unless they take Spell Sniper in which case it becomes 180 feet (from the Expert UA).
An additional thing I can apply to my last post is the ability to create a customized “style” of unarmed combat that incorporates certain special attacks. Something not available to any other class because it relies on the way that Monks are trained and disciplined.
so all of the above is the *base* monk, and sub-classes would expand on that core basis — some might not even use Ki powers, for example.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
No.
Here is another shot at fixing Martial Arts to make it correct some of the monks problems and give the player more options on there turn.
1ST LEVEL: MARTIAL ARTS
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Simple Weapons.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Simple Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a shield:
Bonus Unarmed Strike. When you use the Attack action with an Unarmed Strike or a Simple Weapon on your turn, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action on the same turn.
Dexterous Attacks. You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Simple Weapons, except those that have the Two- Handed property.
Martial Arts Die. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your Unarmed Strike. This die changes as you gain Monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
Martial Art Strikes. When you hit with an Unarmed Strike you may choose to use a lower die size for damage than your Martial Arts Die to also apply an effect to the target. The smallest die you may use is a d4. An effect can only be applied once per turn and only one effect can be applied with each attack. The effect begins after damage and any saving throws for the attack that applied the effect have been rolled. At level 1 in this class you only have access to the -1 die size effect by using a d4 for damage instead of your d6 Martial Arts Die. As your Martial Arts Die changes to a larger die size you will gain access to more effects to apply by lowering the die size used. d12>d10>d8>d6>d4
"No." amazing response. The way you stated absolutely no counter-argument is truly... something.
Here is a radical idea. I just thought of this on my way to work this morning so it might just be bad, so feel free to tell me so. But what if we just dissolve the Mercy Monk and put those subclass features (maybe not all but at least the Hands of Healing/Harm ones) on the base monk class.
I never liked the theme of Mercy monk, so I may be biased. But the mechanics are solid and fits not only the “living weapon” feel but also the “spiritual/prefer peace over violence but will fight when needed” feel. And be a benefit to the party as well with some minor healing.
Just a thought
Edit: So add Hand of Healing/Harm (change Harm damage type to unarmed damage type), Physician’s Touch (minus the give poisoned condition), Flurry of Healing and Harm. Maybe Hand of Ultimate Mercy, but probably not. And possibly add MA die back to weapons.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
All you are proving here is monk is better than a class-less two weapon fighter, which duh? a character using their main class feature to do a thing is going to be better than a character not using any class features to do a thing.
In 5eR all martial lasses get features that boost their damage except for monk
Fighter gets : Weapon Masteries, Fighting Style, Action Surge, and an Extra Feat/ASI at level 6 and 8, an Extra Attack at level 11
Barbarian gets : Weapon Masteries, Rage, Reckless Attack, Brutal Critical at level 9
Ranger gets : Weapon Masteries, Fighting Style, Hunter's Mark, Nature's veil, summoning spells
Paladin gets : Weapon Masteries, Fighting Style, Divine Favor / Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Spirit Shroud
And all of these can use all the martial feats
Monk gets : Weapon Masteries (if they sacrifice using their MA die for damage), and FoB. - they are barred from all the martial feats and get NOTHING else to increase their damage
Also arguing that Monk is equal to two-weapon fighting is still a weak argument (even if you did include other classes features) because pretty much nobody plays the other classes as two-weapon fighters beyond 5th level because every other fighting style is superior to it.
"keeping pace" with the weakest possible build for other martial classes does not mean monk is good, and fine.
Here, if you really want to argue that Monk is good. Here is a basic Barbarian build, taking the most obvious choices for the archtype not particularly optimized at 4 different levels that most campaign reach. Show me a monk that can match their damage, use any subclass you want:
Barbarian - Beserker
Abilities : 17, 14, 14, 8, 12, 8
Level 3 : any 1d6 light weapon, 0.88 * (2d6+3+4) + 7 = 19 DPR
Level 5: Feats: GWM, Greatsword, 0.88*(2d6+4+2)*2 + 7 + 0.12*(4)*2 + 3 = 34 DPR
Level 8 : Feats: GWM + ASI, Greatsword, 0.88*(2d6+5+2)*2 + 7 + 0.12*(5)*2 + 3 = 36 DPR
Level 12 : Feats: GWM + ASI + Sentinel, Greatsword, 0.88*(2d6+5+3)*3 + 10.5 + 0.12*(5)*3 + 4 = 65 DPR *Note: Sentinel + Retaliation guarantee you get a reaction attack each turn.
The mechanics of the mercy monk are the most solid of any monk. I hope they keep a similar design strategy for future builds.
Do you mean to have these ideas as homebrew or for suggested revisions to the phb monk?
Your ideas are all good and there are also alot of other great ideas on these forums.
However there are so many ideas floating around i think the message to wotc on the next monk UA would not be coherant enough to warrant any change.
Spitballing ideas is fun, but for any meaningful changes to the monk, feedback has to be large in numbers and fairly uniform.
I think the best approach would be to do a vote and pick the top 3 or 4 ideas and then have everyone spam those ideas to wotc in the next monk (UA 8?) feedback survey. If we cant agree on what those top 3 or 4 things are, then we can fully expect more of the same dissapointing monk.
The most common ideas i have seen probably are:
1) more ki to start the game
2) more damage in melee (particularly starting at level 11) with an extra flurry of blows and/or adding martial arts die back to weapons
3) better defense in melee - through some combination of better unarmored AC, a parry manuever to reduce damage, or increased hit die
4) unclog the monks bonus action by moving one or both of the monks bonus action unarmed strikes to the attack action.
There are quite few other things like adding dex to monks save dc for grappling but those have been less common.
I dont know how to do votes on this forum. Would someone would someone like to get that started? And also perhaps add another two or three very simple high impact ideas that i may have missed?
Anyone?
It still has lower hp and AC. You keep pointing out that monk barely keeps up with other martials. While having lower HP and AC and no other class features to lean on that don’t draw from its offensive resource, and being so MAD that taking feats cripples you while fighter, ranger, paladin, and barbarian are free to use them.
2d6 plus 6 averages out at 13. 1d8 plus 1d4 plus 6 averages out at 13. Identical at those levels, though monk has essentially no ki to use. When it gets one additional d4+mod unarmed strike per short rest, fighter gets action surge.
At level 4, Monk has 17 AC. If the fighter is STR based, it has 17 also (if they haven’t found any magic armour), and if it’s DEX-based, it has 17. Fighter has action surge and second wind and higher HP. Fighter average DPR becomes 2d8+6, or 15. Monk becomes 1d8+1d4+8, or also 15. That’s assuming dual wielder, however. If the fighter took +2 DEX also, it edges out monk by two points while keeping the same AC.
At level 5, fighter becomes 3d6+12 (assuming the same ASIs previous level) or 22. Monk has 2d8+1d6+12, or 24.5. Same AC, but fighter has more HP. And action surge. Monk has 5 ki at this point, and access to stunning strike, but it has a Ki DC of only 14. Fighter can also attack at range without crippling itself.
Level 6. Fighter gets another ASI/feat. Monk gets magic unarmed strikes. Fighter will likely get a magic weapon at around this time, but I am not factoring that into these damage calculations. Fighter could increase DEX by +2. In that case, damage becomes 26. It also beats monk AC in addition to hit points. Monk has 6 ki, so it could flurry of blows for a single average combat, as long as it didn’t do anything else. It gets a subclass feature at this point, but I’m not counting those (even though it would only accelerate the fighter/monk disparity).
Level 7. Fighter subclass feature (not counted.) Monk gets evasion and stillness of mind - very neat, but unlikely to come up often at this level of play. No DPR change. It is important to mention that monk has fifteen feet of speed on fighter now, but with no cost-effective way to avoid opportunity attacks, it’s essentially irrelevant.
Level 8. ASI. Fighter can take a feat. Monk is stuck increasing its WIS or DEX because it either needs more AC or a better ki DC than 14 so it could actually stun anything. Options for feats include, funnily enough, mobile or dual wielder. Monk’s speed is now only 5ft greater, and fighter can avoid opportunity attacks and skirmish better than the monk can. If monk bumps DEX its DPR average increases to 27.5. Fighter with dual wielder gets 3d8+15, or 29. I sound like a broken record, but monk AC would then be one behind (with no magic items AT ALL at level 8) and its damage is behind, and it has lower health. Uh oh.
Level 9 does nothing.
Level 10. Fighter takes the other of dual wielder or mobile. Monk can run on liquids and walls. Yippee. It can still barely keep up with fighter damage wise and it’s very expensive to avoid opportunity attacks and stay out of melee while attacking.
Level 11. Fighter is now on 4d8+20, or 38. Monk has 3d8+12, or 26. No magic items or subclasses. Monk only has enough resources to keep up with fighter for a few rounds.
Level 12. ASI again. Monk can get to 29 damage or it can increase Ki DC. Fighter gets another feat. Amazing. It would probably end up being +2 CON or slasher, in which case fighter is still more manoeuvrable than monk. And can attack from range with much more effectiveness.
It only gets worse from there. Monk’s only meaningful DPR increase is the die size increase. Fighter gets more feats and damage boosting subclass features. Monk gets Diamond Soul, which is nice, but definitely defensive.
That’s also possibly the lowest damage output fighter build I’ve ever built intentionally. Ouch. You can’t actually get monk better than that. You can definitely get fighter better than that. Monk’s ceiling is fighter’s floor.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
I mean for the updated PHB monk not homebrew. These are already features in the game so some balance is already there. And it doesn’t look like they will be making big changes anyway, if previous UA are any indication and for backwards compatibility. So something that is already in the game might be better than something new. But I’m hoping the revision will be better.
Thinking on it more I think it might be better if you take it out of FoB and just Hand of Healing and Harm when you take the Attack action and make an unarmed strike you can replace one unarmed strike to Heal (no DP, you are sacrificing damage to heal) or 1DP to Harm added to an unarmed strike. Later on you can replace both Attack action attacks to heal
or harmwithout DP (heal) or the no DP once per turn (Harm)(harm, maybe with no DP at higher level)Not sure what levels to put these in. You can still use your BA attack or FoB either way. This way if you want to do all unarmed you get the damage boost (or heal) or if you want to use weapons (with MA die back on weapons) you can do that with Masteries, so it sort of balances out. I haven’t done numbers, at work so not a lot of time.I agree there are a lot of ideas out there and I put in my comments on the survey. We will have to see how they react when we get the revisions in UA8.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
No-cost healing would be very easy to exploit over short rests.. although if it meant people actually took short rests and warlock and monk benefited from them, that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
I can’t remember what’s supposed to go here.
Two-Weapon Fighting is a "trap" that rapidly falls behind Dueling with a shield. I'm not being compensated, here. If you want my best, give me a reason to think you deserve it.
Case in point...
Assuming two fighters both have a +3 modifier at 5th-level, which is low but not unreasonable, it's 19.5 (3d6+9) versus 19 (2d8+10). If they both have a +4 modifier, it's 22.5 (3d6+12) versus 21 (2d8+12). The difference of 1.5 DPR is negligible when you're (a) freeing up that bonus action and (b) carrying a shield for additional AC. And if they're using Action Surge to Attack a second time it becomes, let's say, 37.5 (5d6+20) versus 42 (4d8+24).
I reiterate, you and I aren't even having the same conversation.
It does seem as if backwards compatability is a higher priority than reworking overall design to improve class function. If a new feature is not well recieved the first time, wotc's response seems to be "lets go back to the way it was" rather than come up with other alternatives. If mercy monk is part of the new phb then how likely is it they will move some of mercy monks features to the core monk? I dont know.