So as it is now, since UA6, at 17th level you can do all unarmed for 4d12+20 (assuming 20 Dex and FoB), or 46 avg damage. With WM Nick (no fighting style) Handaxe/dagger 2d6+10, 1d4 (Nick dagger), and 2d12+10 for 42.5 avg damage. If MA die was on weapons it becomes 4d12+20 and 1d12 (Nick dagger) for 52.5 avg damage. Not a huge difference if only looking at mundane items. And skews toward weapon wielding over unarmed for the Attack Action. Which has always been the case with monks in 5E.
Add in fighting style then you go up 5 points of damage. 47.5 (current UA) or 57.5 if you have MA die on weapons. Which puts it 11.5 avg damage per round over all unarmed strikes.
Im not saying monks don’t need MA die on weapons, but I would like it more if they were fairly even so you can choose which way you want to go, depending on the fantasy you are trying to achieve with your character. Maybe the Unarmed magic items they mentioned that are coming will help that.
I dont see a problem with that they would have to spend ki every turn to deep up that dpr. you ought to be rewarded if your spending a resource and sacrificing bonus action
I think they should add "your ma die turns your fist or weapon into a plus magic weapon at certain levels" maybe plus one level 5 plus 2 level eleven or plus 3 at seventeen that way you could use whatever you want for flavor and it would make sense with monk having the inherent power within themselves rather then needing equipment.
we could adjust levels as needed but that way you could be pretty strong no matter what you like to use .
and for those who think we cant cause weapon mastery then I say weapon mastery needs to change . I don't see people crying that the fighter and barb can use them . this was supposed to be the warriors thing including the monk now ya have a ton of classes who can use weapon mastery better then monk, that is unacceptable imo.
They need to not nerf the ma die or weapon mastery for the monk .
barb doesn't get nerfed fighter doesn't get nerfed . I don't care if they use the unarmed attacks, they shouldn't be taxed for their class . I know they are worried monks will be best with simple weapons(fighter will still be better) . at level seventeen you could use a quarterstaff for 1d12 oh no, someone call the fun police . a barb, fighter, ranger, paladin could all start with a d12.
The Main reason MA die isn’t on weapons is one Mastery. Nick. They don’t want ever monk running around with daggers attacking with their ma die. I was shocked they allowed monk to keep 3 attacks at level 1 with Nick, but now it’s 1d4+ mod, 1d4, BA 1d6+mod. If you let MA apply to weapons that all 1d6s at level 1 where that 3 points of average damage difference if they all hit actually matters.
I think that's dumb . if ya want level gate it ok ,
but its bad design to add a cool feature and only nerf one of the classes who it is supposed to be for .
In my opinion the only class that should have gotten weapon masteries is the Fighter, but my opinion on that doesn’t really matter. Unarmed Strikes don’t start really outclassing the weapon choices until level 11. There is no way to level gate Nick because Weapon Mastery is a level 1 feature on every other class that gets it. It would be strange to get it at later.
So as it is now, since UA6, at 17th level you can do all unarmed for 4d12+20 (assuming 20 Dex and FoB), or 46 avg damage. With WM Nick (no fighting style) Handaxe/dagger 2d6+10, 1d4 (Nick dagger), and 2d12+10 for 42.5 avg damage. If MA die was on weapons it becomes 4d12+20 and 1d12 (Nick dagger) for 52.5 avg damage. Not a huge difference if only looking at mundane items. And skews toward weapon wielding over unarmed for the Attack Action. Which has always been the case with monks in 5E.
Add in fighting style then you go up 5 points of damage. 47.5 (current UA) or 57.5 if you have MA die on weapons. Which puts it 11.5 avg damage per round over all unarmed strikes.
Im not saying monks don’t need MA die on weapons, but I would like it more if they were fairly even so you can choose which way you want to go, depending on the fantasy you are trying to achieve with your character. Maybe the Unarmed magic items they mentioned that are coming will help that.
I dont see a problem with that they would have to spend ki every turn to deep up that dpr. you ought to be rewarded if your spending a resource and sacrificing bonus action
I don’t necessarily see a problem with it either but it may be what WotC was concerned about. Especially when magic weapons come into play along with any DPS increase gained by the mastery, like Vex’s advantage on next attack that isn’t calculated in my example.
I do think monks could use a damage boost and I would also like both unarmed and weapons to be on equal footing so people can play they monk how they would like. Doesn’t have to be equal so maybe giving unarmed strikes additional utility that masteries doesn’t cover could make up the difference.
Considering how much WotC is pushing Weapon Masteries I was shocked the Warrior of the Blade wasn’t a subclass in the UA.
Here is one we can agree on sir . I was shocked no Kensei when weapon mastery is the flavor . I might be ok if they just gave ma die to Kensei as long as other monks had ways to cover the distance.
UA8 "Bastions and Cantrips" is out, if you didn't know. just a "bonus UA" geared more towards DMG stuff that they didn't plan to have out at this time. anyway, 2/3rds through the video released alongside it they hit on classes that will show up in the next real PHB UA. specifically, they mention monk:
adjust discipline point costs so that a player doesn't feel their fantasy and effectiveness is held back by those constraints
looking for places where a skill/feature/etc has both a usage limit and a point cost. "that's too much restraint." ...referring to "X times per day" things only or maybe to include "bonus action + discipline point" stuff?? unclear.
reduced and removed discipline point costs
only Warrior (path?) of the Hand going out?? Elements and Shadows scored too high to resurface.
The sad thing is that at the end of the day, capitulating to abuse and organized harassment a.) only encourages such folks to continue their abuse and b.) never actually satisfies such people, because now they know they can keep pushing further.
The Monk is never going to be what its obsessed detractors want it to be: a class that does more damage than every other martial, moves three times farther every turn, has higher defenses in every regard, and deals out multiple crippling conditions per turn—with either nonexistent or inconsequential resource costs. The Monk is not going to have an overabundance of resources at the levels that every class is limited in their special abilities, on top of their innate and free bonuses like bonus attacks and movement speed.
Or they will, because angry gamers on the internet get everything they want, in which I'll feel sorry for the creators when the YouTubers who want more for Fighters inevitably rally their followers to harass them for absurd buffs.
You don’t have to try and be Yurei-lite with your over exaggeration on this topic. Many of us are not looking for monk to be the highest damage martial, etc. But the 2014, and the UA6 versions were nowhere near perfect.
And there were areas where it was completely unnecessary to have two forms of restrictions, like Ascendent Dragon’s Wings Unfurled, which wasn’t great to begin with, but required SotW (which is limited by Ki) and only PB times per LR. It didn’t need both.
Honestly their remarks in the video left me with a lot of hope that they will be fixing some stuff. I really hated that one of the "Hand" abilities was limited to number of days + used the bonus action + Used ki. The fact that they are moving away from that is great. I look forward to the next iteration.
Honestly their remarks in the video left me with a lot of hope that they will be fixing some stuff. I really hated that one of the "Hand" abilities was limited to number of days + used the bonus action + Used ki. The fact that they are moving away from that is great. I look forward to the next iteration.
Just to drive home how utterly ridiculous this sort of complaint is: This is like complaining that a Wizard can't cast a spell without using up their action.
We have now genuinely reached the point where people are arguing that Monk Bad because they have to use their actions to do things.
Everyone has to use their action to do SOME things. Some things are just passive. Like I don't see needing to use an action to turn on a paladins auras. The wizard needs to cast a spell with an action, but doesnt need to use its action to maintain concentration on that spell to keep it going.
The monks actions + RESOURCE limitation were such that it wasnt providing the VALUE of an action or a resource expenditure. They were using resources to do what other classes could do for free. They were using bonus actions AND their action to do things that other classes could do with JUST their action. That was the problem.
The complain about Wholeness of Body is not about action economy (which kinda screws over Hand's main feature, BTW, but that's a problem of the Open Hand Technique, rather than WoB).
It's the fact that it's using 2 resources at once (DP AND 'X times per long rest' points), regardless of whether or not it takes an action/bonus action/free action/reaction. If it were a 'spend one, then the other' situation (like how an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can use it's Warping Implosion once per long rest and then spend 5 sorcery points to use it again), or if it only used the 'X times per rest' points, then sure, it'd not be a problem. But as it is, it is like saying a Wizard has to use spell slots and is limited to X (INT mod) times per long rest for any spell.
Everyone has to use their action to do SOME things. Some things are just passive. Like I don't see needing to use an action to turn on a paladins auras. The wizard needs to cast a spell with an action, but doesnt need to use its action to maintain concentration on that spell to keep it going.
The monks actions + RESOURCE limitation were such that it wasnt providing the VALUE of an action or a resource expenditure. They were using resources to do what other classes could do for free. They were using bonus actions AND their action to do things that other classes could do with JUST their action. That was the problem.
Many Wizard spells require using an action or bonus action on subsequent turns to repeat the effect, such as Minute Meteors or Heat Metal.
It's also bizarre to complain about this in regard to the Monk, when most of their class and subclass features are well aware that the Monk will be routinely using their action and bonus action. Many Monk subclass features apply on-hit without any additional action required, or only require a single turn to activate and then last for a duration afterwards. Like the very feature you cited: the Open Hand's Quivering Palm. It takes one bonus action to trigger, has a duration of days in which the Monk can choose to trigger it and unlimited range, and does not require any dedicated action to apply. All you need to do is hit the enemy, with no additional action required. Which also goes for the Open Hand's opening feature, which takes effect any time you use one of the Monk's most basic features, no additional action required.
So yes, you are 100% demanding that the Monk, a class with numerous features that play politely with its base options, be allowed to do everything and anything without even taking up their bonus action.
I didn't site quivering palm. The one I sited was actually Wholeness of body, which costs a bonus action (removing the ability to use martial arts, flurry of blows, patient defense, or step of the wind on the turn you use it) it costs 1 ki point AND it has a limited number of uses per day to go along with that.
Wizards of the coast specifically pointed out abilities like THIS where there is a ki cost AND another limiter put on it at the same time. I have 0 problem with monks making a decision on what to do with their bonus action. I have a problem with the FACT (not opinion) that they have to use their bonus action to keep up with characters that are JUST using their action.
For example if the fighter wants to use second wind (their version of wholeness of body) they aren't locked out of using Action surge that round AND they still do more damage with their weapon attacks than the monk does. Their weapon attacks still scale farther at level 11 and without any resource use or use of their bonus action they can out damage and, with the new weapon mastery, out combat strategy, the monk that is using ALL of their resources and their bonus action.
If you had read or been paying attention at all. My only suggestions for monk recently have been 3 fold. 1. Remove the ki cost of abilities that already have a limit number of uses. There needs to be a limited number of uses OR a ki cost NOT BOTH (WoTC agrees, thank goodness). 2. Give Monks an second extra attack at level 11 similar to fighters. 3. Remove "when you take the attack action" qualifier on martial arts bonus action attack and Flurry of blows to allow greater action variety.
That is it. I think the monk is 98% fine, but has some obvious pain points. I would LOVE to see the run on walls and walk on water much earlier, but i am ok with it not being earlier. I am ok with most other things. it just doesn't scale well and double dipping on restrictions feels Dumb. It is fine costing a bonus action, it is fine costing a bonus action and a ki point. It isnt fine to cost a bonus action a ki point AND have a limited number of uses per day. that is too much to track and too many resources used for a single ability. Even worse that it isn't even a great ability.
I LIKE and WANT choices in actions and bonus actions to be MEANINGFUL. I don't want bonus action expenditures to be mandatory to meet "bare minimum" and I don't want resource expenditure to allow a character to match what another is doing without a cost.
You are focusing on the "it costs a bonus action" portion rather than everything else. Honestly, it was getting to the point I was thinking another ability was going to cost 3 ki, a bonus action, an action, half your movement and you could still only do it 3 times per long rest, but every long rest you would have to stand up spin around three times put a blind fold on and pin the tail on a donkey to recover 1 use of the ability. And the ability would be something like for one round you gain the effects of the jump spell. That is what Wholeness of Body feels like when I read it.
I honestly think the only real thing the monk needs is what they mentioned in the video. Have abilities use one resource such as flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of the wind are already limited to your bonus action. They don’t need to cost points too. The rouge’s cunning action does exactly that. I don’t see why the monk should have to pay for it too with points. I would like to see deflect projectile also be limited to simply a reaction, maybe allow it to deflect melee attacks too but it’s really okay, just take away the double cost. Stunning strike and the higher abilities would be okay to use points for because they don’t use anything else.
I LIKE and WANT choices in actions and bonus actions to be MEANINGFUL. I don't want bonus action expenditures to be mandatory to meet "bare minimum" and I don't want resource expenditure to allow a character to match what another is doing without a cost.
So here is the thing about people who complain about 5e and "meaningful choice". When presented with a class like the Monk, where they have multiple choices per turn, options as to how they spend their resources, such people either want:
a.) a specific choice that (in their minds at least) supersedes all other choices to the point that there are no other options worth using (see: people who think Stunning Strike is the only Monk feature worth using) b.) to be able to utilize multiple "choices" simultaneously, without cost or limitation (see: people who complain that the Monk can't make two bonus attacks and double their movement speed in the same turn)
When presented with actual meaningful choice and options that require weighing limited resources and the various opportunities at one's disposal in a given encounter...surprisingly, the most vocal crowd doesn't want to be forced to think too hard. They don't want to not always be doing "full" damage. They don't want using one option to take away from them using another option at the same time, even though literally every other class with options has to choose between said options.
Which again, is one of those "you can just play the Fighter" complaints that so many people complaining about Monk cannot grasp. You want a class that can be built for sheer and simple damage-per-round, that can facetank all the attacks in melee? Play a Fighter, instead of saying the Monk other people enjoy shouldn't exist because their focus on strategic use of their abilities doesn't interest you.
Up until level 11 I COMPLETELY agree with you. At MOST of the game the monk has VERY meaningful choices on how it attacks or operates, if it wants to do more damage or more focus on survival or mobility or even if it wants to focus on controlling a particular target it can choose to do so, it is literal trade offs that are fun and fair to me and those choices being round to round are POWERFUL. I want MORE choice with the ability to be flexible about being able to dodge and still make one unarmed strike as a bonus action without spending ki (lower damage, but hey no ki cost that is trade off, but again lets me make that choice.) At level 11 and higher, the problem is I can spend ALL my resources and all my actions and still not even get to "acceptable damage" not "highest damage" just decent even if the thing I chose to do that round was "damage". The choices from before become LESS meaningful when they become less powerful. That is why I am for the 1 more extra attack just baseline at level 11 like the fighter and now the Warlock gets (warlock unlikely to keep it though fair enough). Because that extra attack means the bonus action is still meaningful, whether you spend no ki and use martial arts or spend 1 ki for flurry, step or patient defense they all still trade at the same rate with the same ideas this way in my opinion. A ki to do a little over baseline damage, a ki to be super defensive or a ki to be super fast.
Monk gameplay is really fun, there are just a few pain points still though that aren't full fixed by subclasses.
Up until level 11 I COMPLETELY agree with you. At MOST of the game the monk has VERY meaningful choices on how it attacks or operates, if it wants to do more damage or more focus on survival or mobility or even if it wants to focus on controlling a particular target it can choose to do so, it is literal trade offs that are fun and fair to me. I want MORE choice with the ability to be flexible about being able to dodge and still make one unarmed strike as a bonus action without spending ki (lower damage, but hey no ki cost that is trade off, but again lets me make that choice.) At level 11 and higher, the problem is I can spend ALL my resources and all my actions and still not even get to "acceptable damage" not "highest damage" just decent even if the thing I chose to do that round was "damage". The choices from before become LESS meaningful when they become less powerful. That is why I am for the 1 more extra attack just baseline at level 11 like the fighter and now the Warlock gets (warlock unlikely to keep it though fair enough). Because that extra attack means the bonus action is still meaningful, whether you spend no ki and use martial arts or spend 1 ki for flurry, step or patient defense they all still trade at the same rate with the same ideas this way in my opinion. A ki to do a little over baseline damage, a ki to be super defensive or a ki to be super fast.
Monk gameplay is really fun, there are just a few pain points still though that aren't full fixed by subclasses.
So the Monk needs more attacks per turn than every other martial (three with their bonus attack on top, which at Level 11 is a d10, with a likely +5 modifier, so that's 24-60 every turn compared to 18-51 from a Fighter with a d12 weapon), plus all of their discipline options that give them more damage-boosting options (which at the most basic is taking that 24-60 and making it 30-75 for 11 turns/short rest), plus all of the mobility and defensive features they have that said Fighter that can't keep up damage-wise lacks and has nothing comparative to offer.
Heck, let's compare the 2+1-attacks-at-11 Monk with a Fighter at 11. Monk hits three times for d10+5, so that's 18-45 damage, while the Fighter is 18-51 with a d12 weapon. The Monk is only slightly behind said Fighter, and the Monk still has 11 discipline points to boost their damage, mobility, and defense in ways the Fighter can't, and has support options from both their class and subclass that the Fighter also lacks.
The only way the math supports the Monk Bad conclusion is if literally the only metric you care about is purely damage-per-round...and then you ignore the math demonstrating that Monks actually have good damage-per-round.
So your math is a bit off and kind of bad and makes sense why you think monk is fine.
So your math completely ignores feats, magic weapons, other features that the fighter has while also counting all the features of the monk is the problem. If they are using a d10 weapon the fighter is probably using a polearm, at level 6 has an extra ASI, by level 11 that extra ASI allows for 3 feats as he doesn't need to up his wisdom in addition to his strength or dex. This means that his attacks will actually be 3d10+5+1d4+5 from Pole Arm Master + 5 extra damage from GWM + extra damage from Charger Feat + extra damage from Great weapon fighting fighting style + extra from weapon mastery. So the minimum isn't 18 it is 30 the max damage isn't 51 it is 67, and the average is actually closer to the 67 because of great weapon fighting style. And that is 0 resource use 30 to 67 points of damage...with monk using EVERYTHING it has to just do 24-60, lower on both ends. No subclasses taken into account for either class. My suggestion brings monk to 30-70, without the rerolls making it lower on average even with higher max WITH the use of ki. You are ignoring all of the choices the fighter has while touting the monk's choices.
The Warlock with Hex is doing 1d10+1d6+5*3 at this level as well. that is 21 to 63 from 120 feet away + being able to have other riders on that blast.
Edit: as far as better defenses, the Fighter can have Higher to = AC at the time use second wind to recover health and his indomitable making it better at saving throws and baseline more health. The monk is definitively better at mobility, and that is it.
Edit 2: ( I am presuming you aren't suggesting that the monk is Over Powered at level 6 or 7 and needs to be nerfed when the number of attack differences between the monk and fighter is the same as the one I am suggesting from level 11 to 19. I do not see you suggesting that the monk should lose extra attack at level 5).
The sad thing is that at the end of the day, capitulating to abuse and organized harassment a.) only encourages such folks to continue their abuse and b.) never actually satisfies such people, because now they know they can keep pushing further.
The Monk is never going to be what its obsessed detractors want it to be: a class that does more damage than every other martial, moves three times farther every turn, has higher defenses in every regard, and deals out multiple crippling conditions per turn—with either nonexistent or inconsequential resource costs. The Monk is not going to have an overabundance of resources at the levels that every class is limited in their special abilities, on top of their innate and free bonuses like bonus attacks and movement speed.
Or they will, because angry gamers on the internet get everything they want, in which I'll feel sorry for the creators when the YouTubers who want more for Fighters inevitably rally their followers to harass them for absurd buffs.
I think people just want to be on even footing. some want monk to be improved you seem fine with the satus quo . you are free to put that in your feedback.
also movement is easy to get id be ok to trade some in for other options . mounts and the flying spell exist or just be a tabaxi. its not that its useless but it needs to be paired with a stronger base class.
The sad thing is that at the end of the day, capitulating to abuse and organized harassment a.) only encourages such folks to continue their abuse and b.) never actually satisfies such people, because now they know they can keep pushing further.
The Monk is never going to be what its obsessed detractors want it to be: a class that does more damage than every other martial, moves three times farther every turn, has higher defenses in every regard, and deals out multiple crippling conditions per turn—with either nonexistent or inconsequential resource costs. The Monk is not going to have an overabundance of resources at the levels that every class is limited in their special abilities, on top of their innate and free bonuses like bonus attacks and movement speed.
Or they will, because angry gamers on the internet get everything they want, in which I'll feel sorry for the creators when the YouTubers who want more for Fighters inevitably rally their followers to harass them for absurd buffs.
Nothing about being competitive and able to contribute to your party is busted. ranger is considered weak next to monk but can easily out damage fighters with the right set up thanks to spell casting . you have a weird hang up about damage.
Id like you to write out what you want for the monk so we can actually argue points. atm it just seems like you want monk to be the same.
You don’t have to try and be Yurei-lite with your over exaggeration on this topic. Many of us are not looking for monk to be the highest damage martial, etc. But the 2014, and the UA6 versions were nowhere near perfect.
And there were areas where it was completely unnecessary to have two forms of restrictions, like Ascendent Dragon’s Wings Unfurled, which wasn’t great to begin with, but required SotW (which is limited by Ki) and only PB times per LR. It didn’t need both.
You're the one demanding that a class be "perfect".
And yes, numerous people have constantly complained throughout this thread that the Monk can't limitlessly spam features like Flurry of Blows or other subclass features that allow them to spike above other martials' damage, even though the bonus strike keeps them competitive (if not exceeding most martials not specced for raw damage). They've constantly complained that even though Flurry of Blows already exceeds Action Surge's contribution to damage, FoB still needs to do more. They've constantly complained that even though the Monk has innate heightened defenses in several regards and increased movement speed and bonus attack, the Monk isn't able to Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, and Patient Defense all at once—with the expectation that doing so should have an entirely inconsequential discipline-point cost to boot. And they've constantly complained that at a point in the game where Fighters get one shot of Action Surge between short rests, casters have half a dozen spells to last them all day, Barbarians get to Rage twice per day...the Monk should get to use their abilities a half-dozen times per short-rest by Level 2, and if they want those points restored, they should be able to do so with just as little limitation.
They've also said that Monks would be "better" if their Unarmoured Defense was blatantly nerfed (but made easier for multiclass builds to take advantage of), if they were given gimmicks that would induce headaches for DMs and players alike, if they were converted to half-casters with all of their features changed to spells (even the ones with zero action or resource cost whatsoever), and countless other awful ideas that would make the Monk unplayable for people who enjoy what the class is, as opposed to demanding it change to fit their "fantasy". All suggested by folks who supposedly want the Monk to be "better", but literally everything they want the Monk to be is either "blatantly unbalanced" or "why not just play the class you want Monk to be".
But the people enjoying Monk don't make YouTube videos encouraging their followers to brigade and spam hate and vitriol, and isn't that what truly validates an opinion?
your kidding right . I'm the one who wants monk to be very strong. Kreen wants to be very balance sensitive which I respect him for and even i don't need them to be the most powerful just strong enough to be competitive . he's not the droid your looking for .
UA8 "Bastions and Cantrips" is out, if you didn't know. just a "bonus UA" geared more towards DMG stuff that they didn't plan to have out at this time. anyway, 2/3rds through the video released alongside it they hit on classes that will show up in the next real PHB UA. specifically, they mention monk:
adjust discipline point costs so that a player doesn't feel their fantasy and effectiveness is held back by those constraints
looking for places where a skill/feature/etc has both a usage limit and a point cost. "that's too much restraint." ...referring to "X uses per day" things or "bonus action + discipline point" stuff?? unclear.
reduced and removed discipline point costs
only Warrior (path?) of the Hand going out?? Elements and Shadows scored too high to resurface.
You don’t have to try and be Yurei-lite with your over exaggeration on this topic. Many of us are not looking for monk to be the highest damage martial, etc. But the 2014, and the UA6 versions were nowhere near perfect.
And there were areas where it was completely unnecessary to have two forms of restrictions, like Ascendent Dragon’s Wings Unfurled, which wasn’t great to begin with, but required SotW (which is limited by Ki) and only PB times per LR. It didn’t need both.
You're the one demanding that a class be "perfect".
And yes, numerous people have constantly complained throughout this thread that the Monk can't limitlessly spam features like Flurry of Blows or other subclass features that allow them to spike above other martials' damage, even though the bonus strike keeps them competitive (if not exceeding most martials not specced for raw damage). They've constantly complained that even though Flurry of Blows already exceeds Action Surge's contribution to damage, FoB still needs to do more. They've constantly complained that even though the Monk has innate heightened defenses in several regards and increased movement speed and bonus attack, the Monk isn't able to Flurry of Blows, Step of the Wind, and Patient Defense all at once—with the expectation that doing so should have an entirely inconsequential discipline-point cost to boot. And they've constantly complained that at a point in the game where Fighters get one shot of Action Surge between short rests, casters have half a dozen spells to last them all day, Barbarians get to Rage twice per day...the Monk should get to use their abilities a half-dozen times per short-rest by Level 2, and if they want those points restored, they should be able to do so with just as little limitation.
They've also said that Monks would be "better" if their Unarmoured Defense was blatantly nerfed (but made easier for multiclass builds to take advantage of), if they were given gimmicks that would induce headaches for DMs and players alike, if they were converted to half-casters with all of their features changed to spells (even the ones with zero action or resource cost whatsoever), and countless other awful ideas that would make the Monk unplayable for people who enjoy what the class is, as opposed to demanding it change to fit their "fantasy". All suggested by folks who supposedly want the Monk to be "better", but literally everything they want the Monk to be is either "blatantly unbalanced" or "why not just play the class you want Monk to be".
But the people enjoying Monk don't make YouTube videos encouraging their followers to brigade and spam hate and vitriol, and isn't that what truly validates an opinion?
The things you say are inaccurate, do you actually believe them? They did a survey, monk didnt do well. People did math, monk didnt do well. Not sure why you are so invested in monk being bad, but hopefully you'll be very disappointed with the final monk result.
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I dont see a problem with that they would have to spend ki every turn to deep up that dpr. you ought to be rewarded if your spending a resource and sacrificing bonus action
I think they should add "your ma die turns your fist or weapon into a plus magic weapon at certain levels" maybe plus one level 5 plus 2 level eleven or plus 3 at seventeen that way you could use whatever you want for flavor and it would make sense with monk having the inherent power within themselves rather then needing equipment.
we could adjust levels as needed but that way you could be pretty strong no matter what you like to use .
and for those who think we cant cause weapon mastery then I say weapon mastery needs to change . I don't see people crying that the fighter and barb can use them . this was supposed to be the warriors thing including the monk now ya have a ton of classes who can use weapon mastery better then monk, that is unacceptable imo.
In my opinion the only class that should have gotten weapon masteries is the Fighter, but my opinion on that doesn’t really matter.
Unarmed Strikes don’t start really outclassing the weapon choices until level 11. There is no way to level gate Nick because Weapon Mastery is a level 1 feature on every other class that gets it. It would be strange to get it at later.
I don’t necessarily see a problem with it either but it may be what WotC was concerned about. Especially when magic weapons come into play along with any DPS increase gained by the mastery, like Vex’s advantage on next attack that isn’t calculated in my example.
I do think monks could use a damage boost and I would also like both unarmed and weapons to be on equal footing so people can play they monk how they would like. Doesn’t have to be equal so maybe giving unarmed strikes additional utility that masteries doesn’t cover could make up the difference.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Considering how much WotC is pushing Weapon Masteries I was shocked the Warrior of the Blade wasn’t a subclass in the UA.
Here is one we can agree on sir . I was shocked no Kensei when weapon mastery is the flavor . I might be ok if they just gave ma die to Kensei as long as other monks had ways to cover the distance.
UA8 "Bastions and Cantrips" is out, if you didn't know. just a "bonus UA" geared more towards DMG stuff that they didn't plan to have out at this time. anyway, 2/3rds through the video released alongside it they hit on classes that will show up in the next real PHB UA. specifically, they mention monk:
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
You don’t have to try and be Yurei-lite with your over exaggeration on this topic. Many of us are not looking for monk to be the highest damage martial, etc. But the 2014, and the UA6 versions were nowhere near perfect.
And there were areas where it was completely unnecessary to have two forms of restrictions, like Ascendent Dragon’s Wings Unfurled, which wasn’t great to begin with, but required SotW (which is limited by Ki) and only PB times per LR. It didn’t need both.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Honestly their remarks in the video left me with a lot of hope that they will be fixing some stuff. I really hated that one of the "Hand" abilities was limited to number of days + used the bonus action + Used ki. The fact that they are moving away from that is great. I look forward to the next iteration.
Everyone has to use their action to do SOME things. Some things are just passive. Like I don't see needing to use an action to turn on a paladins auras. The wizard needs to cast a spell with an action, but doesnt need to use its action to maintain concentration on that spell to keep it going.
The monks actions + RESOURCE limitation were such that it wasnt providing the VALUE of an action or a resource expenditure. They were using resources to do what other classes could do for free. They were using bonus actions AND their action to do things that other classes could do with JUST their action. That was the problem.
The complain about Wholeness of Body is not about action economy (which kinda screws over Hand's main feature, BTW, but that's a problem of the Open Hand Technique, rather than WoB).
It's the fact that it's using 2 resources at once (DP AND 'X times per long rest' points), regardless of whether or not it takes an action/bonus action/free action/reaction. If it were a 'spend one, then the other' situation (like how an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can use it's Warping Implosion once per long rest and then spend 5 sorcery points to use it again), or if it only used the 'X times per rest' points, then sure, it'd not be a problem. But as it is, it is like saying a Wizard has to use spell slots and is limited to X (INT mod) times per long rest for any spell.
I didn't site quivering palm. The one I sited was actually Wholeness of body, which costs a bonus action (removing the ability to use martial arts, flurry of blows, patient defense, or step of the wind on the turn you use it) it costs 1 ki point AND it has a limited number of uses per day to go along with that.
Wizards of the coast specifically pointed out abilities like THIS where there is a ki cost AND another limiter put on it at the same time. I have 0 problem with monks making a decision on what to do with their bonus action. I have a problem with the FACT (not opinion) that they have to use their bonus action to keep up with characters that are JUST using their action.
For example if the fighter wants to use second wind (their version of wholeness of body) they aren't locked out of using Action surge that round AND they still do more damage with their weapon attacks than the monk does. Their weapon attacks still scale farther at level 11 and without any resource use or use of their bonus action they can out damage and, with the new weapon mastery, out combat strategy, the monk that is using ALL of their resources and their bonus action.
If you had read or been paying attention at all. My only suggestions for monk recently have been 3 fold.
1. Remove the ki cost of abilities that already have a limit number of uses. There needs to be a limited number of uses OR a ki cost NOT BOTH (WoTC agrees, thank goodness).
2. Give Monks an second extra attack at level 11 similar to fighters.
3. Remove "when you take the attack action" qualifier on martial arts bonus action attack and Flurry of blows to allow greater action variety.
That is it. I think the monk is 98% fine, but has some obvious pain points. I would LOVE to see the run on walls and walk on water much earlier, but i am ok with it not being earlier. I am ok with most other things. it just doesn't scale well and double dipping on restrictions feels Dumb. It is fine costing a bonus action, it is fine costing a bonus action and a ki point. It isnt fine to cost a bonus action a ki point AND have a limited number of uses per day. that is too much to track and too many resources used for a single ability. Even worse that it isn't even a great ability.
I LIKE and WANT choices in actions and bonus actions to be MEANINGFUL. I don't want bonus action expenditures to be mandatory to meet "bare minimum" and I don't want resource expenditure to allow a character to match what another is doing without a cost.
You are focusing on the "it costs a bonus action" portion rather than everything else. Honestly, it was getting to the point I was thinking another ability was going to cost 3 ki, a bonus action, an action, half your movement and you could still only do it 3 times per long rest, but every long rest you would have to stand up spin around three times put a blind fold on and pin the tail on a donkey to recover 1 use of the ability. And the ability would be something like for one round you gain the effects of the jump spell. That is what Wholeness of Body feels like when I read it.
I honestly think the only real thing the monk needs is what they mentioned in the video. Have abilities use one resource such as flurry of blows, patient defense, and step of the wind are already limited to your bonus action. They don’t need to cost points too. The rouge’s cunning action does exactly that. I don’t see why the monk should have to pay for it too with points. I would like to see deflect projectile also be limited to simply a reaction, maybe allow it to deflect melee attacks too but it’s really okay, just take away the double cost. Stunning strike and the higher abilities would be okay to use points for because they don’t use anything else.
I have high hopes for the future
Up until level 11 I COMPLETELY agree with you. At MOST of the game the monk has VERY meaningful choices on how it attacks or operates, if it wants to do more damage or more focus on survival or mobility or even if it wants to focus on controlling a particular target it can choose to do so, it is literal trade offs that are fun and fair to me and those choices being round to round are POWERFUL. I want MORE choice with the ability to be flexible about being able to dodge and still make one unarmed strike as a bonus action without spending ki (lower damage, but hey no ki cost that is trade off, but again lets me make that choice.) At level 11 and higher, the problem is I can spend ALL my resources and all my actions and still not even get to "acceptable damage" not "highest damage" just decent even if the thing I chose to do that round was "damage". The choices from before become LESS meaningful when they become less powerful. That is why I am for the 1 more extra attack just baseline at level 11 like the fighter and now the Warlock gets (warlock unlikely to keep it though fair enough). Because that extra attack means the bonus action is still meaningful, whether you spend no ki and use martial arts or spend 1 ki for flurry, step or patient defense they all still trade at the same rate with the same ideas this way in my opinion. A ki to do a little over baseline damage, a ki to be super defensive or a ki to be super fast.
Monk gameplay is really fun, there are just a few pain points still though that aren't full fixed by subclasses.
So your math is a bit off and kind of bad and makes sense why you think monk is fine.
So your math completely ignores feats, magic weapons, other features that the fighter has while also counting all the features of the monk is the problem. If they are using a d10 weapon the fighter is probably using a polearm, at level 6 has an extra ASI, by level 11 that extra ASI allows for 3 feats as he doesn't need to up his wisdom in addition to his strength or dex. This means that his attacks will actually be 3d10+5+1d4+5 from Pole Arm Master + 5 extra damage from GWM + extra damage from Charger Feat + extra damage from Great weapon fighting fighting style + extra from weapon mastery. So the minimum isn't 18 it is 30 the max damage isn't 51 it is 67, and the average is actually closer to the 67 because of great weapon fighting style. And that is 0 resource use 30 to 67 points of damage...with monk using EVERYTHING it has to just do 24-60, lower on both ends. No subclasses taken into account for either class. My suggestion brings monk to 30-70, without the rerolls making it lower on average even with higher max WITH the use of ki. You are ignoring all of the choices the fighter has while touting the monk's choices.
The Warlock with Hex is doing 1d10+1d6+5*3 at this level as well. that is 21 to 63 from 120 feet away + being able to have other riders on that blast.
Edit: as far as better defenses, the Fighter can have Higher to = AC at the time use second wind to recover health and his indomitable making it better at saving throws and baseline more health. The monk is definitively better at mobility, and that is it.
Edit 2: ( I am presuming you aren't suggesting that the monk is Over Powered at level 6 or 7 and needs to be nerfed when the number of attack differences between the monk and fighter is the same as the one I am suggesting from level 11 to 19. I do not see you suggesting that the monk should lose extra attack at level 5).
I think people just want to be on even footing. some want monk to be improved you seem fine with the satus quo . you are free to put that in your feedback.
also movement is easy to get id be ok to trade some in for other options . mounts and the flying spell exist or just be a tabaxi. its not that its useless but it needs to be paired with a stronger base class.
Nothing about being competitive and able to contribute to your party is busted. ranger is considered weak next to monk but can easily out damage fighters with the right set up thanks to spell casting . you have a weird hang up about damage.
Id like you to write out what you want for the monk so we can actually argue points. atm it just seems like you want monk to be the same.
your kidding right . I'm the one who wants monk to be very strong. Kreen wants to be very balance sensitive which I respect him for and even i don't need them to be the most powerful just strong enough to be competitive . he's not the droid your looking for .
his example of usage was x times a day.
The things you say are inaccurate, do you actually believe them? They did a survey, monk didnt do well. People did math, monk didnt do well. Not sure why you are so invested in monk being bad, but hopefully you'll be very disappointed with the final monk result.