Seriously? What's with the all the "you need a high con to be a martial"? I play martials in nearly all of my games and I've never played a character with more than a +2 in CON... this included: a melee rogue, a barbarian, a paladin, several monks, a bladesinger, a moon druid, a Hexblade warlock, a Rune Knight.
The Barbarian’s damage isn’t relevant. It’s a monk method vs monk method comparison, with the mindset being to use PB instead of other methods to scale damage and AC. It’s not about being stupendously better, it’s about a different mindset. The fact that the AC isn’t terribly far off is actually the goal. (and the trade on much better low end damage vs a bit less high end is close enough)
The problem there is that the Monk player never gets to feel like a hero. Constant reliable damage might be equally powerful on average as its current set up, but it isn't as exciting - otherwise we would just forsake dice for damage entirely. In my DMing circle we often discuss the importance of "Big Damn Hero" moments to player fun, and the BIG problem with UA6 monk is that you will never get a BDH moment. For 5e monk your BDH moment was that turn when you spend all your ki hitting and trying to stun the enemy with everything you've got, now what is it?
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
Having played Monks quite a bit, Monks already have plenty of opportunity to be the "Big Dam Hero". They don't need to go toe to toe with a Barbarian to get there, and it's actually better that they don't, because it means that the Barbarian and Monk have very different types of Big Dam Hero moment. There's no need to try to wedge them into the same pigeon hole by saying they must have identical damage output.
Seriously? What's with the all the "you need a high con to be a martial"? I play martials in nearly all of my games and I've never played a character with more than a +2 in CON... this included: a melee rogue, a barbarian, a paladin, several monks, a bladesinger, a moon druid, a Hexblade warlock, a Rune Knight.
Rogues have Cunning Action
Barbarians have Rage
Paladins have heavy armor, Lay on Hands, and a bunch of spells
Bladesingers have Bladesong and a ton of spells
Moon Druids don't use their own stats most of the time
Hexblade Warlocks have eldritch blast and a bunch of spells
Rune Knights have Second Wind, heavy armor, and multiple playstyles
What do Monks have? A ton of resource expenditure and bonus action clog.
And anyways, +2 is about what most people mean when they say that Monks need Con. Most people don't really consider getting a +3 unless they rolled very well. It's just that it's a lot harder to get that +2 on a Monk than a Fighter.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I had the thought, no idea if its a good one, to borrow from the Mirror Image spell for Monk defense.
"When you are hit by an attack, Roll a D20. On an 11 or higher, the attack is deflected and deals no damage"
Then change Patient Defense to be "Change the 11 to a 6 or higher to deflect the attack until the start of your next turn"
This way it stacks with AC, Stacks with Disadvantage, either from Dodge or other players skills and Mirror Image is only a 2nd level spell and does not have concentration. And the whole thing plays into the Monks Avoidance training.
As for Martial Arts.
1. When hit by an unarmed strike, the creature takes additional damage equal to the martial arts die. This is in addition to any other effects.
2. Unarmed Strikes now have the Nick Property.
3. You may choose to use Dexterity when calculating the Attack Bonus, Damage Bonus, and DC of unarmed strikes.
Now Martial Arts works with Fighting Styles, Racial Options, or Feats that increase unarmed strike damage while also essentially adding 3 'Weapon Mastery' type effects to the strikes themselves. For example, if I choose the Unarmed Strike [damage] option, I deal "1+Martial Arts Die +Dex damage" But if I have the Unarmed Fighting Style or Claws, I get "1d6 + Martial Arts Die + Dex" and if I shove I get to use the Martial Arts die and I get to use Weapon Mastery. It even works with the Monks that use weapons since they can use the Nick Weapon Mastery to add the Bonus attack to the attack action, leaving the Bonus action totally open. And their shoves or Grapples still deal the Martial Arts die in damage.
It might be a bit overtuned, but at lest it respects the choices the player makes. I think being able to Punch with the power the a Great Sword is worth the fact that you needed either a Feat or a Specific Race to get to it.
And anyways, +2 is about what most people mean when they say that Monks need Con. Most people don't really consider getting a +3 unless they rolled very well. It's just that it's a lot harder to get that +2 on a Monk than a Fighter.
How so? Using Point Buy and floating species ASIs it is easy to get: 16,16,14,12,8,8. With the Standard Array (which few tables use IME) you can get 16,16,13,12,10,8 or 17,14,14,12,10,8. Rolled stats on average are higher that either of the above.
I already said this on other threads, but the most defining factor for any Monk player is the subclass, and in this UA it became even more apparent since Stunning Strike is really not as appealing as before:
Shadow monks are meant to be fighting either in their own darkness or while invisible, there's no DC nor unnamed resources based on Wisdom you care about, so it can be a Dex-focused build or a Str build if you want to teleport and grapple on the same bonus action (so far the only class able to do this I think).
Elements monks can fight from "range", have the speed to move out of melee reach and can use Deflect Missiles to deal with ranged attacks, they do have a push/pull and Dex save DC based on Wisdom, but you can settle with a +2 and be done with it, since everything else are passive effects that do not rely on your Wisdom to be used.
Hand monks are the problem, they really capture every single problem the base class may have and dial it up to 11, you have to spend DPs to use your main feature evey turn; you really need high Dex and Wis for your main features to work, if (or rather, when) they fail you are stuck at melee; you have an unnamed resource that's used TOGETHER with DPs; and the capstone is laughably bad with a really lame excuse of it being 'overpowered for the amount of ki points it costs'.
What am I getting at? A monk's AC is not really a big problem for Shadow or Elements, but it certainly is for Hand monk (because you are a base monk more often than not). Are there other AC calculations that can help the base monk and punishes multiclassing? Sure, like making it 10+Dex+1/2 your Monk level. But since the current formula works for 2/3 of the subclasses, I highly doubt WotC will ever adress the problem, even more so before releasing the other subclasses.
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
Because it is named Monk and not Martial Artist.
Seconded. I don't think Martial Artist would make a bad class, but I also don't think it would be a Monk.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
Because it is named Monk and not Martial Artist.
Exactly. It's merely something name related with the false though about people from a temple and all that stuff, but is not the only and be all the related with MA. Indeed that monk is a subset of the martial arts, not the opposite. If the name matters so much, then it could be time to move to Martial Artist and the Monk to be a subclass, and then this last one doing things with Wis.
Dropping Wisdom from the Monk is purely about making its features more exploitable for DEX-focused classes.
It's not about making the Monk's AC "better"; it's about letting Rogues, Rangers, and DEX Fighters have an easy path to heavy-armour AC without the disadvantages of or investment in heavy armour, via a one-level dip.
No, as mentioned many times, associate the unarmored armor (or any other feature) to the class level, not character level. This should be applied to all the class related features in the game.
Multi-class rules has many flaws that individual classes are not the ones which should pay for, but the multi-class itself.
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
Because it is named Monk and not Martial Artist.
Exactly. It's merely something name related with the false though about people from a temple and all that stuff, but is not the only and be all the related with MA. Indeed that monk is a subset of the martial arts, not the opposite. If the name matters so much, then it could be time to move to Martial Artist and the Monk to be a subclass, and then this last one doing things with Wis.
There is also more to "monk" than a single temple. The idea of spiritual warrior exists in more than one place in the world and works as a class identity. Some wear armor, some don't there is more than one solution to this, but the fact is damage, armor and effects are all low for the monk, but if you want a "martial artists" make an unarmed fighter is better than losing the spiritual warrior that is the monk.
IMHO is time to take out Wis from the Monk. Rogue can focus only on Dex even for computing it’s DC for Cunning Strike, then why the monk have to use another score?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely. 2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt. 3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones 4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not. 5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this) 6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed. 7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
Because it is the only thing that distinguishes the Monk from being an Fighter or Barbarian that fights unarmed. If you want to play a Martial Artist that's fine, but you would do so by playing a Battlemaster Fighter with the Unarmed Fighting style. If you want to play a street-brawler you would do so by playing a Barbarian with the Tavern Brawler feat. If you want to play a sumo wrestler, you would do so by playing a Rune Knight Fighter with the Tavern Brawler and Grappler feats. If you want to play as one-punch-man you would do so by playing a Paladin with the Unarmed Fighting style.
The spiritual warrior is not the monk, we can get a Samurai as one and be a Fighter.
And those are examples of other types focused on unarmed combat, that is not the same than a Martial Artist. The class features are far. Looking at MA fantasy like movies, we can have a spiritual warrior not being the game monk, and have MA combatants with features like the monk but not being spiritual at all.
All that mystical stuff is more related to character itself than class.
Dropping Wisdom from the Monk is purely about making its features more exploitable for DEX-focused classes.
It's not about making the Monk's AC "better"; it's about letting Rogues, Rangers, and DEX Fighters have an easy path to heavy-armour AC without the disadvantages of or investment in heavy armour, via a one-level dip.
No, as mentioned many times, associate the unarmored armor (or any other feature) to the class level, not character level. This should be applied to all the class related features in the game.
Multi-class rules has many flaws that individual classes are not the ones which should pay for, but the multi-class itself.
Just put Lilith on your ignore list. She's contributed nothing of value at any point in these discussions.
Anyone who believes that people would dip Monk for unarmored defense is just grasping at straws to justify their hatred of the D&D community. Ranger could do that now, as could a dexterity based Cleric, but they don't, because it would be a wasted level when armor is relatively cheap, and getting to 19/20AC before level 8 is quite easy.
I'm definitely against dropping Wisdom from Monks; the problem here isn't that Monks need Wisdom, it's that they have the same number of Ability Score Increases (five) as other classes that aren't anywhere near as ability score dependent, including the Rogue who gets six despite only really needing Dexterity.
The Rogues proposed new Cunning Strikes feature for example needs to be Intelligence based; it's ridiculous for a class with six ASIs to be mono-score. Even the Arcane Trickster doesn't really need Intelligence if you're not focusing on attack or saving throw spells (e.g- if you go for things like color spray, sleep, shadow blade etc., plus general utility spells). So it's silly that a mono-score class gets six, when a bi-/tri-score class like Monk is stuck on five.
That's why I think the Monk definitely needs six, and Rogue needs some Intelligence dependence if they're supposed to be all about cunning.
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Agree with that other classes need that multi-score balance.
But even with that, but thinking about game mechanics (let’s put the flavor aside) with a monk dependent of 2 scores is in disadvantage compared to other martials, like Fighter or Barbarian, who can do everything with its main one. Even compared to other multi-score, like Paladin, well this last one only requires Cha for its attack spells, which rarely be the case, or in any case is optional, as it can do everything with its Str and use defense/support spells. But in this case, it would be, comparing with how the monk works, that Divine Smite and other class features used Cha for resist, and is not the case. And even in that case, they made sure that yet can dip one level of Warlock and then focus only on one score, having also things like spells or armor proficiencies.
If want to preserve that old flavor because <put here the reason>, OK, but as a previous post shown, there are already monks that can bypass Wis, like the Shadow or Elements. Then the only way to solve it preserving the Wis is making sure that the Wis to be something more secondary. If not thinking on multi-class, the Shadow have its darkness, the Elemental can put distance, then apply the same with all. In the case of the Hand, the 3rd level skill should grant a concentration mode lasting 10 minutes (like the other monks) granting free use of Flurry of Blows, and giving advantage to concentration checks. Then getting those extra attacks, 2 of them applying a state, you can live better with lower Wis as is not so crucial to bypass the enemy resistance with your currently few usages.
So, as summary, if don’t want to drop Wis, make it less important in general.
In additon, due that the monk loses proficiencies compared to others, like armor, compensate with an extra skill proficiency (3 instead 2), and with more class proficiencies to chose, like Investigation and Survival, or thieves’s tools in some cases (like Shadow?, but you get it at level 3 so it’s a problem). The monk simply loses proficiencies with no trade-off to compensate, lower hit die, no armor, simple weapons only.
The Inquisitive Rogue is wisdom based. The Swashbuckler is charisma based. The Arcane Trickster is intelligence based.
The only stat they have in common is dexterity. If you based it on another stat them one of those subclasses would be clearly better than the rest. Even WotC recognize that as a bad idea.
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Seriously? What's with the all the "you need a high con to be a martial"? I play martials in nearly all of my games and I've never played a character with more than a +2 in CON... this included: a melee rogue, a barbarian, a paladin, several monks, a bladesinger, a moon druid, a Hexblade warlock, a Rune Knight.
The problem there is that the Monk player never gets to feel like a hero. Constant reliable damage might be equally powerful on average as its current set up, but it isn't as exciting - otherwise we would just forsake dice for damage entirely. In my DMing circle we often discuss the importance of "Big Damn Hero" moments to player fun, and the BIG problem with UA6 monk is that you will never get a BDH moment. For 5e monk your BDH moment was that turn when you spend all your ki hitting and trying to stun the enemy with everything you've got, now what is it?
I think the problem there is that WIS sort of stands in for the Mystical element of a Monk. Removing it is implying making a Monk just an unarmed warrior, as opposed to having all of the fantasy elements that get intertwined into martial arts legends.
I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that it's a fairly big departure from what the Monk is. At that point, why isn't the Monk just a Fighting Style and Subclass for the Fighter? For example, you could:
1) Get rid of the Monk class entirely.
2) Make a "Fighting Style: Unarmed" that fairly well duplicates the basic martial arts stuff (damage, bonus unarmed strike, Dex based, and allowed to use Weapon Masteries with Unarmed Strikes). Maybe the damage is a simple as what I have been saying about using (1d4 or 1d6) + PB to scale damage dealt.
3) Make a Fighter Subclass that gets into Battle Master style martial arts maneuvers, including quasi mystical ones
4) Make a variant of the Cleric Divine Order and War Domain that are more "Monk" stylized. Divine Order that grants "FS: Unarmed", not sure if War Domain would work out of the box or not.
5) Barbarian, Druid, Rogue, and possibly Sorcerer subclasses for the same. (why sorcerer? because I like the "Physical Adept" from Shadowrun, and I will never not recommend this)
6) Some sort of variation for the Sword Bard and Bladesinger that make them work with Unarmed Strikes more transparently. For the Bard that might be as simple as including "Unarmed" as one of their Fighting Style options, and a slight rewording of the flourishes. For the Bladesinger, maybe they pick between a Martial Weapon and their Armor proficiency vs Fighting Style: Unarmed.
7) A Feat like Martial Adept that grants two Martial Arts Maneuvers (from #3 above). It's also possible to handle #3 and this one by just making these Martial Arts Maneuvers be an extensive expansion to the Battle Master.
So, basically, you shift the mystical monk to being a common subclass for casters, and you shift the mundane martial artist/pugilist to being a subclass for Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues. If you make the FS: Unarmed available to Paladins and Rangers, as well, then that handles them. (I would see Druid and Ranger being more animalistic in their unarmed fighting, but it still fits into this umbrella, IMO ... somewhere between animal totems and animal-style martial arts).
The other thing is: you can do all of that and skip #1 (don't get rid of the Monk as they exist right now). Best of both worlds.
Having played Monks quite a bit, Monks already have plenty of opportunity to be the "Big Dam Hero". They don't need to go toe to toe with a Barbarian to get there, and it's actually better that they don't, because it means that the Barbarian and Monk have very different types of Big Dam Hero moment. There's no need to try to wedge them into the same pigeon hole by saying they must have identical damage output.
What do Monks have? A ton of resource expenditure and bonus action clog.
And anyways, +2 is about what most people mean when they say that Monks need Con. Most people don't really consider getting a +3 unless they rolled very well. It's just that it's a lot harder to get that +2 on a Monk than a Fighter.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I had the thought, no idea if its a good one, to borrow from the Mirror Image spell for Monk defense.
"When you are hit by an attack, Roll a D20. On an 11 or higher, the attack is deflected and deals no damage"
Then change Patient Defense to be "Change the 11 to a 6 or higher to deflect the attack until the start of your next turn"
This way it stacks with AC, Stacks with Disadvantage, either from Dodge or other players skills and Mirror Image is only a 2nd level spell and does not have concentration. And the whole thing plays into the Monks Avoidance training.
As for Martial Arts.
1. When hit by an unarmed strike, the creature takes additional damage equal to the martial arts die. This is in addition to any other effects.
2. Unarmed Strikes now have the Nick Property.
3. You may choose to use Dexterity when calculating the Attack Bonus, Damage Bonus, and DC of unarmed strikes.
Now Martial Arts works with Fighting Styles, Racial Options, or Feats that increase unarmed strike damage while also essentially adding 3 'Weapon Mastery' type effects to the strikes themselves. For example, if I choose the Unarmed Strike [damage] option, I deal "1+Martial Arts Die +Dex damage" But if I have the Unarmed Fighting Style or Claws, I get "1d6 + Martial Arts Die + Dex" and if I shove I get to use the Martial Arts die and I get to use Weapon Mastery. It even works with the Monks that use weapons since they can use the Nick Weapon Mastery to add the Bonus attack to the attack action, leaving the Bonus action totally open. And their shoves or Grapples still deal the Martial Arts die in damage.
It might be a bit overtuned, but at lest it respects the choices the player makes. I think being able to Punch with the power the a Great Sword is worth the fact that you needed either a Feat or a Specific Race to get to it.
How so?
Using Point Buy and floating species ASIs it is easy to get: 16,16,14,12,8,8.
With the Standard Array (which few tables use IME) you can get 16,16,13,12,10,8 or 17,14,14,12,10,8.
Rolled stats on average are higher that either of the above.
I already said this on other threads, but the most defining factor for any Monk player is the subclass, and in this UA it became even more apparent since Stunning Strike is really not as appealing as before:
What am I getting at? A monk's AC is not really a big problem for Shadow or Elements, but it certainly is for Hand monk (because you are a base monk more often than not). Are there other AC calculations that can help the base monk and punishes multiclassing? Sure, like making it 10+Dex+1/2 your Monk level. But since the current formula works for 2/3 of the subclasses, I highly doubt WotC will ever adress the problem, even more so before releasing the other subclasses.
But I have to ask, why the Monk MUST be Mystical? I don't understand. All the stuff around that is about religion and philosophy, but in the MA fantasy that is not applied to all MA users at all, only to certain key characters that the narrative wants to grant some background and interest. From that, is all about skills, having a good example in the Warrior of the Shadows, not using Wis for anything, while it can teleport (like the fantasy ninjas). The Wis association is merely an old heritage from a base idea that has been keep with no special reason, just because it was in origin, and don't touch it.
Because it is named Monk and not Martial Artist.
Seconded. I don't think Martial Artist would make a bad class, but I also don't think it would be a Monk.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Exactly. It's merely something name related with the false though about people from a temple and all that stuff, but is not the only and be all the related with MA. Indeed that monk is a subset of the martial arts, not the opposite. If the name matters so much, then it could be time to move to Martial Artist and the Monk to be a subclass, and then this last one doing things with Wis.
No, as mentioned many times, associate the unarmored armor (or any other feature) to the class level, not character level. This should be applied to all the class related features in the game.
Multi-class rules has many flaws that individual classes are not the ones which should pay for, but the multi-class itself.
There is also more to "monk" than a single temple. The idea of spiritual warrior exists in more than one place in the world and works as a class identity. Some wear armor, some don't there is more than one solution to this, but the fact is damage, armor and effects are all low for the monk, but if you want a "martial artists" make an unarmed fighter is better than losing the spiritual warrior that is the monk.
Because it is the only thing that distinguishes the Monk from being an Fighter or Barbarian that fights unarmed. If you want to play a Martial Artist that's fine, but you would do so by playing a Battlemaster Fighter with the Unarmed Fighting style. If you want to play a street-brawler you would do so by playing a Barbarian with the Tavern Brawler feat. If you want to play a sumo wrestler, you would do so by playing a Rune Knight Fighter with the Tavern Brawler and Grappler feats. If you want to play as one-punch-man you would do so by playing a Paladin with the Unarmed Fighting style.
The spiritual warrior is not the monk, we can get a Samurai as one and be a Fighter.
And those are examples of other types focused on unarmed combat, that is not the same than a Martial Artist. The class features are far. Looking at MA fantasy like movies, we can have a spiritual warrior not being the game monk, and have MA combatants with features like the monk but not being spiritual at all.
All that mystical stuff is more related to character itself than class.
Just put Lilith on your ignore list. She's contributed nothing of value at any point in these discussions.
Anyone who believes that people would dip Monk for unarmored defense is just grasping at straws to justify their hatred of the D&D community. Ranger could do that now, as could a dexterity based Cleric, but they don't, because it would be a wasted level when armor is relatively cheap, and getting to 19/20AC before level 8 is quite easy.
I'm definitely against dropping Wisdom from Monks; the problem here isn't that Monks need Wisdom, it's that they have the same number of Ability Score Increases (five) as other classes that aren't anywhere near as ability score dependent, including the Rogue who gets six despite only really needing Dexterity.
The Rogues proposed new Cunning Strikes feature for example needs to be Intelligence based; it's ridiculous for a class with six ASIs to be mono-score. Even the Arcane Trickster doesn't really need Intelligence if you're not focusing on attack or saving throw spells (e.g- if you go for things like color spray, sleep, shadow blade etc., plus general utility spells). So it's silly that a mono-score class gets six, when a bi-/tri-score class like Monk is stuck on five.
That's why I think the Monk definitely needs six, and Rogue needs some Intelligence dependence if they're supposed to be all about cunning.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Agree with that other classes need that multi-score balance.
But even with that, but thinking about game mechanics (let’s put the flavor aside) with a monk dependent of 2 scores is in disadvantage compared to other martials, like Fighter or Barbarian, who can do everything with its main one. Even compared to other multi-score, like Paladin, well this last one only requires Cha for its attack spells, which rarely be the case, or in any case is optional, as it can do everything with its Str and use defense/support spells. But in this case, it would be, comparing with how the monk works, that Divine Smite and other class features used Cha for resist, and is not the case. And even in that case, they made sure that yet can dip one level of Warlock and then focus only on one score, having also things like spells or armor proficiencies.
If want to preserve that old flavor because <put here the reason>, OK, but as a previous post shown, there are already monks that can bypass Wis, like the Shadow or Elements. Then the only way to solve it preserving the Wis is making sure that the Wis to be something more secondary. If not thinking on multi-class, the Shadow have its darkness, the Elemental can put distance, then apply the same with all. In the case of the Hand, the 3rd level skill should grant a concentration mode lasting 10 minutes (like the other monks) granting free use of Flurry of Blows, and giving advantage to concentration checks. Then getting those extra attacks, 2 of them applying a state, you can live better with lower Wis as is not so crucial to bypass the enemy resistance with your currently few usages.
So, as summary, if don’t want to drop Wis, make it less important in general.
In additon, due that the monk loses proficiencies compared to others, like armor, compensate with an extra skill proficiency (3 instead 2), and with more class proficiencies to chose, like Investigation and Survival, or thieves’s tools in some cases (like Shadow?, but you get it at level 3 so it’s a problem). The monk simply loses proficiencies with no trade-off to compensate, lower hit die, no armor, simple weapons only.
The Inquisitive Rogue is wisdom based. The Swashbuckler is charisma based. The Arcane Trickster is intelligence based.
The only stat they have in common is dexterity. If you based it on another stat them one of those subclasses would be clearly better than the rest. Even WotC recognize that as a bad idea.