So... I may be guilty of having played Dungeons and Dragons Online (the MMO) a few times. More than once. Let's say a reasonable amount. (She's lying!)
In DDO, Warlocks got one of their damage components of their Eldritch Blast from their pact. Acid from Great Old Ones (Cthulhu melts!), Lightning from Celestial, and so on. Now that we've seen Warlock UA5's familiar dealing damage based on the pact type, would it be a good idea to standardise Hex bonus damage (and possibly other bonus damage dice from various invocative sources?) to that same damage type? Just a note on those abilities saying "dealing 1d6 pact damage type", and then add a line to each pact about which damage type it provides? I feel like that would quell a number of the "I don't want Hex because NECROTIC!" arguments.
Wait. I think someone already suggested something like this further up, or in another thread. But I'm lazy and sleepy. So if someone did, just consider this my support of their earlier and obviously genius suggestion.
EDIT: My reading comprehension skills have brought it to my attention that Warlock familiars don't deal damage type based on your pact, but on what kind of familiar type you choose to summon. Well. Uhm. My argument, albeit flawed, still stands! So there.
But, also, yeah - expanding on invocations would be several shades of awesome all at once.
My feedback was for EB to be slightly nerfed to get it's damage type flavored by your pact, fiend=fire, undead=necrotic, celestial=radiant, etc. Force is boring.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My feedback was for EB to be slightly nerfed to get it's damage type flavored by your pact, fiend=fire, undead=necrotic, celestial=radiant, etc. Force is boring.
I agree the damage for EB and Hex should be based on your patron. However it doesn’t need to be nerfed.
Ought the Warlock explore the invocation aspect of its class even further?
For sure. It's where WotC, unfortunately, dropped the ball with the playtest but have said they'll lean into more. However, considering what they've said about other aspects of the playtests and then having seen their limited or misguided execution, I don't hold much hope that they'll give the breadth or depth of Invocations required.
How would you feel about a greater number of invocations?
How about making some of the Pact-keyed invocations basic class features instead of invocations? At level 9 you automatically get Favour of the Chain Master/Gift of the Protector/Lifedrinker depending on your pact choice?
This is a good example of where they should go, removing the Invocation tax options. These should have been wrapped up with Pact Choice the same way Thirsting Blade, etc. were. No one is going to complain about that in the same way no one complained Pact Weapon gained Eldritch Warrior and Thirsting Blade (except for the MC abuse); you've already decided that's the playstyle you want. Instead Invocations should be to give you options (status conditions, utility, out of class spells) rather than keep pace mechanically in your chosen playstyle. It's why Agonising Blast was bad Invocation design.
Rabbit hole thoughts about Hex below:
Personally, I'm a fan of making Hex the central theme and feature of the warlock as a "X per Long/Short Rest" ability (Short Rest if playtest Warlock, Long Rest if 5e PHB) instead of a spell. Remove the requirement for Concentration, improve upon it by Subclass and Invocations. Want your Hex for social encounters? Archfey means you can Charm/ Frighten Hex'd creatures or Mass Hex Invocation (made up as example) lets you give a Charisma debuff to multiple creatures. Combat? Fiend lets you gain thp for killing (or hitting?) Hex'd creatures and Hex damage auto scales with Warlock level (or Cha). Debuff or spy? GOO telepathically links and can Daze, etc. Heal? Celestial makes Hex a healing/defensive/buff effect on an ally. Battlefield control & combat? Lethargic/Repelling/Grasping/Maddening/Relentless Hex. Hex being a class feature also means you're not wasting limited spell slots on it, which can be employed for other things in or out of combat.
Changing Eldritch Blast Invocations to Hex Invocations then just makes EB another vector of Warlock attack, rather than the only one. This means Pact of Chain/Blade builds don't have to rely on the off-playstyle cantrip to stay competitive for damage.
EDIT: Clarify my suggestion requires Hex to be Concentration free.
What would you think about new pacts? Blade is the fighty pact, Book is the casty one, and Chain is ostensibly the petty... uh... pet-oriented pact. Somewhere along the line maybe Talisman shows back up as the supporty pact.
But what more can we imagine? In one of the warlock threads (maybe even this one?), there was an argument about how warlocks are half casters and half... what? Ought the pact establish that remaining part a bit more?
How about a somewhat skill-focused pact? Pact of the... Mask? Giving you a flexible proficiency or two, that is upgraded to expertise at level 5?
Pact of the Banner, a defensive and protective alternative. Grants heavy armour and shield training. Allows you to impose disadvantage on attacks aimed at your allies if you are within a certain distance? At 5th level it improves to giving your additional HP and being able to share the pain of an ally as with Warding Bond.
Ought the Warlock explore the invocation aspect of its class even further?
For sure. It's where WotC, unfortunately, dropped the ball with the playtest but have said they'll lean into more. However, considering what they've said about other aspects of the playtests and then having seen their limited or misguided execution, I don't hold much hope that they'll give the breadth or depth of Invocations required.
Personally, I'm a fan of making Hex the central theme and feature of the warlock as a "X per Long/Short Rest" ability (Short Rest if playtest Warlock, Long Rest if 5e PHB), modified by Subclass and Invocations. Want your Hex for social encounters? Archfey means you can Charm/ Frighten Hex'd creatures or Mass Hex Invocation (made up as example) lets you give a Charisma debuff to multiple creatures. Combat? Fiend lets you gain thp for killing (or hitting?) Hex'd creatures and Hex damage auto scales with Warlock level (or Cha). Debuff or spy? GOO telepathically links and can Daze, etc. Heal? Celestial makes Hex a healing/defensive/buff effect on an ally. Battlefield control & combat? Lethargic/Repelling/Grasping/Maddening/Relentless Hex. Hex being a class feature also means you're not wasting limited spell slots on it, which can be employed for other things in or out of combat.
These are bad changes, taking something that is currently free and independent and tying it to one particular concentration spell is bad. Hex should get invocations to buff it if it remains a core feature of the class like EB does, but it shouldn't be subclass dependent and they should be a choice not required. Subclasses should have their own features that work regardless of which invocations you choose or which pact boon you choose. Any class that has spellcasting shouldn't be forced to cast / concentrate on one particular spell to use their other features, as you're taking away half of their spell list when you do so.
You misunderstand me but that's my fault for not being clearer.
The glaring omission from my suggestion (which I'll go edit now) would be the requirement to remove Concentration from Hex (in addition to it not being using precious spell slots).
Now the Eldritch Blast Invocations becoming Hex Invocations makes them more flexible, not restricted, as previously they only benefited those casting Eldritch Blast, now they benefit a warlock using any of the attack tools in their arsenal (so long as they target a Hexed creature but that's a feature, not a bug in this suggested design).
For subclass, I wasn't suggesting restricting any Invocations, I was suggesting giving more features or expanding their features to tie into Hex. A Fiendlock already gains tHP from defeating an enemy; granting it on hitting a Hexed creature is additional, not restricting, and of limited benefit. Likewise, Dark Ones Own Luck could be used to negatively affect a Hexed creature in addition to the beneficial use you gain currently.
Hopefully that clarifies what I inadequately described before.
My feedback was for EB to be slightly nerfed to get it's damage type flavored by your pact, fiend=fire, undead=necrotic, celestial=radiant, etc. Force is boring.
I agree the damage for EB and Hex should be based on your patron. However it doesn’t need to be nerfed.
Changing from force to anything else is a soft nerf based on resistances
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Ought the Warlock explore the invocation aspect of its class even further?
For sure. It's where WotC, unfortunately, dropped the ball with the playtest but have said they'll lean into more. However, considering what they've said about other aspects of the playtests and then having seen their limited or misguided execution, I don't hold much hope that they'll give the breadth or depth of Invocations required.
How would you feel about a greater number of invocations?
How about making some of the Pact-keyed invocations basic class features instead of invocations? At level 9 you automatically get Favour of the Chain Master/Gift of the Protector/Lifedrinker depending on your pact choice?
This is a good example of where they should go, removing the Invocation tax options. These should have been wrapped up with Pact Choice the same way Thirsting Blade, etc. were. No one is going to complain about that in the same way no one complained Pact Weapon gained Eldritch Warrior and Thirsting Blade (except for the MC abuse); you've already decided that's the playstyle you want. Instead Invocations should be to give you options (status conditions, utility, out of class spells) rather than keep pace mechanically in your chosen playstyle. It's why Agonising Blast was bad Invocation design.
Rabbit hole thoughts about Hex below:
Personally, I'm a fan of making Hex the central theme and feature of the warlock as a "X per Long/Short Rest" ability (Short Rest if playtest Warlock, Long Rest if 5e PHB) without requiring Concentration, improved upon by Subclass and Invocations. Want your Hex for social encounters? Archfey means you can Charm/ Frighten Hex'd creatures or Mass Hex Invocation (made up as example) lets you give a Charisma debuff to multiple creatures. Combat? Fiend lets you gain thp for killing (or hitting?) Hex'd creatures and Hex damage auto scales with Warlock level (or Cha). Debuff or spy? GOO telepathically links and can Daze, etc. Heal? Celestial makes Hex a healing/defensive/buff effect on an ally. Battlefield control & combat? Lethargic/Repelling/Grasping/Maddening/Relentless Hex. Hex being a class feature also means you're not wasting limited spell slots on it, which can be employed for other things in or out of combat.
Changing Eldritch Blast Invocations to Hex Invocations then just makes EB another vector of Warlock attack, rather than the only one. This means Pact of Chain/Blade builds don't have to rely on the off-playstyle cantrip to stay competitive for damage.
EDIT: Clarify my suggestion requires Hex to be Concentration free.
Definitely do not want to see a hex focus. That’s a class killer as far as I am concerned
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Each to their own. For me it feels like the most obvious thematic identity and screams for more development but I'm not fussed either way.
What I do get frustrated by, is WotC half-assing it like they did in the playtest with both Hex and Hunter's Mark. If it's a class feature it needs to be fully developed and consistently useful through all tiers without interfering with other gameplay options (spell slots, Concentration, core action economy). Or just return them to being optional spells and don't waste class features on them.
The glaring omission from my suggestion (which I'll go edit now) would be the requirement to remove Concentration from Hex (in addition to it not being using precious spell slots).
Why is that even a spell then? Just make it a regular subclass feature like the Hunter Ranger's Colossus Slayer, or Horizon walker's +1d6 force damage thing. The only thing that making an unlimited concentration-free ability into a spell does, is it lets other characters get access to it via Magic Initiate or Magical Secrets. To be a spell an ability should meet one of these requirements: 1) be limited by spell slots 2) require concentration 3) be a choice to trade off against other spells.
I mean, that's exactly what I'm trying to say... clearly not very well. Make it a core class feature, rather than a half-hearted class spell that wastes feature space.
Ought the Warlock explore the invocation aspect of its class even further?
For sure. It's where WotC, unfortunately, dropped the ball with the playtest but have said they'll lean into more. However, considering what they've said about other aspects of the playtests and then having seen their limited or misguided execution, I don't hold much hope that they'll give the breadth or depth of Invocations required.
How would you feel about a greater number of invocations?
How about making some of the Pact-keyed invocations basic class features instead of invocations? At level 9 you automatically get Favour of the Chain Master/Gift of the Protector/Lifedrinker depending on your pact choice?
This is a good example of where they should go, removing the Invocation tax options. These should have been wrapped up with Pact Choice the same way Thirsting Blade, etc. were. No one is going to complain about that in the same way no one complained Pact Weapon gained Eldritch Warrior and Thirsting Blade (except for the MC abuse); you've already decided that's the playstyle you want. Instead Invocations should be to give you options (status conditions, utility, out of class spells) rather than keep pace mechanically in your chosen playstyle. It's why Agonising Blast was bad Invocation design.
Rabbit hole thoughts about Hex below:
Personally, I'm a fan of making Hex the central theme and feature of the warlock as a "X per Long/Short Rest" ability (Short Rest if playtest Warlock, Long Rest if 5e PHB) without requiring Concentration, improved upon by Subclass and Invocations. Want your Hex for social encounters? Archfey means you can Charm/ Frighten Hex'd creatures or Mass Hex Invocation (made up as example) lets you give a Charisma debuff to multiple creatures. Combat? Fiend lets you gain thp for killing (or hitting?) Hex'd creatures and Hex damage auto scales with Warlock level (or Cha). Debuff or spy? GOO telepathically links and can Daze, etc. Heal? Celestial makes Hex a healing/defensive/buff effect on an ally. Battlefield control & combat? Lethargic/Repelling/Grasping/Maddening/Relentless Hex. Hex being a class feature also means you're not wasting limited spell slots on it, which can be employed for other things in or out of combat.
Changing Eldritch Blast Invocations to Hex Invocations then just makes EB another vector of Warlock attack, rather than the only one. This means Pact of Chain/Blade builds don't have to rely on the off-playstyle cantrip to stay competitive for damage.
EDIT: Clarify my suggestion requires Hex to be Concentration free.
Definitely do not want to see a hex focus. That’s a class killer as far as I am concerned
Strong agree. Played a warlock from 1-14 and never once cast Hex. Always wanted to do other things with my spell slots. Further- Hexblade as the natural subclass to be "curse" focused is widely considered to have some of the weakest lore & flavor. Hex absolutely should not be a class focus.
Keep in mind I'm just suggesting a new idea for Warlock and Hex design that I think has merit, not saying how it must be. This is the UA thread and I'm currently playtesting my ideas with games I'm running (if anyone's interested I can give feedback).
Now, I do understand that just being given a spell as part of a feature doesn't make it core to the gameplay. However, the playtest implementation of Hex Master implies that's exactly how WotC think. They seem to have decided EB and Hex are core spells. Fine, as you stated, you don't need to use them. However, the capstone class feature is only applicable to Hex, ergo it's been designed (badly) as a core class feature. I don't particularly want to waste my concentration on a 1st level Hex when I'm at level 18+, as you say, there are more interesting spells to cast, so I'd say the entire capstone feature is wasted and the implementation of Hex warrants another look.
3 options exist when faced with a poor design iteration like that:
Revert to Hex just being a unique warlock spell in your arsenal and give a different capstone unrelated to Hex. [Entirely happy with this, if boring]
Change the capstone so it's workable with Hex as a semi-core spell feature (e.g. Hex Master casts it at 5th level, etc.). [Worst option imo as just MOAR DAMAGE becomes the encouraged gameplay]
Redesign Hex so it actually is a decent core feature. [I thought this was an interesting concept which prompted my suggestions]
It's funny you mention features being worthwhile if they don't deliver extra damage because I totally agree, despite your condescension. I think Hex and Hunter's Mark are boring as +XdXdamage and wasting great fluff. My ideal visions for redesigned Hex and Hunter's Mark wouldn't do damage as the base function, instead being party buffs (Hunter's Mark increases attack bonus for whole party) and single target debuffs (Hex gives disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws). Damage could be layered on at higher levels or through Subclass/Invocations but isn't the core utility.
A lot of this comes down to personal taste though. For me, I like classes designed around strong core features that mesh thematically and mechanically. Thematically I like the concept and uniqueness of Hexing people. Others prefer other things.
I realise it would probably have been easier posting the whole redesign rather than explaining it in drips and drabs. Ah well, hindsight.
You misunderstand me but that's my fault for not being clearer.
The glaring omission from my suggestion (which I'll go edit now) would be the requirement to remove Concentration from Hex (in addition to it not being using precious spell slots).
Now the Eldritch Blast Invocations becoming Hex Invocations makes them more flexible, not restricted, as previously they only benefited those casting Eldritch Blast, now they benefit a warlock using any of the attack tools in their arsenal (so long as they target a Hexed creature but that's a feature, not a bug in this suggested design).
For subclass, I wasn't suggesting restricting any Invocations, I was suggesting giving more features or expanding their features to tie into Hex. A Fiendlock already gains tHP from defeating an enemy; granting it on hitting a Hexed creature is additional, not restricting, and of limited benefit. Likewise, Dark Ones Own Luck could be used to negatively affect a Hexed creature in addition to the beneficial use you gain currently.
Hopefully that clarifies what I inadequately described before.
That is my preference for the class but it does stray from warlock historically which was more eldritch blast focused. But if hex were a ability instead of a spell and it did some basic default thing similar to like marking in 4e but a debuff of some kind even if its just thje current versions disadvantage on ability checks thing because its a hex. And invocations and sub classes juiced it up I think it could be a really fun way to play the class. Especially if the add ons were less generic than do more damage. Sure have the shoves, the damage in there, but have really debilitating effects, things for social situations, things that felt like it was a full on curse
i want to see hex set up interesting per subclass interactions worth the spell slot and concentration. like hex charming the foe or making you invisible to only them. or causing their speech to come out in a language you know but their allies might not. or give them vertigo, requiring an acrobatics check to not fall prone when moving 15ft or more. or cause them to become socially hostile to everyone including their allies (maybe dampen "pack tactics" in combat). or causing them to exude 1d2 static electric damage to one or two friendlies a round. or give them a sense of unease, claustrophobia, and shortness of breath within 30ft of you which (upon intimidate check) may cause them want to wander away to fresh air (non combat) or flee from a fight with you. etc etc...
Ought the Warlock explore the invocation aspect of its class even further?
For sure. It's where WotC, unfortunately, dropped the ball with the playtest but have said they'll lean into more. However, considering what they've said about other aspects of the playtests and then having seen their limited or misguided execution, I don't hold much hope that they'll give the breadth or depth of Invocations required.
How would you feel about a greater number of invocations?
How about making some of the Pact-keyed invocations basic class features instead of invocations? At level 9 you automatically get Favour of the Chain Master/Gift of the Protector/Lifedrinker depending on your pact choice?
This is a good example of where they should go, removing the Invocation tax options. These should have been wrapped up with Pact Choice the same way Thirsting Blade, etc. were. No one is going to complain about that in the same way no one complained Pact Weapon gained Eldritch Warrior and Thirsting Blade (except for the MC abuse); you've already decided that's the playstyle you want. Instead Invocations should be to give you options (status conditions, utility, out of class spells) rather than keep pace mechanically in your chosen playstyle. It's why Agonising Blast was bad Invocation design.
Rabbit hole thoughts about Hex below:
Personally, I'm a fan of making Hex the central theme and feature of the warlock as a "X per Long/Short Rest" ability (Short Rest if playtest Warlock, Long Rest if 5e PHB) instead of a spell. Remove the requirement for Concentration, improve upon it by Subclass and Invocations. Want your Hex for social encounters? Archfey means you can Charm/ Frighten Hex'd creatures or Mass Hex Invocation (made up as example) lets you give a Charisma debuff to multiple creatures. Combat? Fiend lets you gain thp for killing (or hitting?) Hex'd creatures and Hex damage auto scales with Warlock level (or Cha). Debuff or spy? GOO telepathically links and can Daze, etc. Heal? Celestial makes Hex a healing/defensive/buff effect on an ally. Battlefield control & combat? Lethargic/Repelling/Grasping/Maddening/Relentless Hex. Hex being a class feature also means you're not wasting limited spell slots on it, which can be employed for other things in or out of combat.
Changing Eldritch Blast Invocations to Hex Invocations then just makes EB another vector of Warlock attack, rather than the only one. This means Pact of Chain/Blade builds don't have to rely on the off-playstyle cantrip to stay competitive for damage.
EDIT: Clarify my suggestion requires Hex to be Concentration free.
Strongly agreed on invocation tax, and your hex ideas are actually great, loving it.
On the opposite side or somewhat related to invocation taxes I will say I am not a fan of medium armor as it makes an already weak invocation armor of shadows even weaker. I'm sure it polled well as medium armor is better than light armor. But the polls on the features are very off and on. They aren't contextual questions like would you prefer medium armor or a class ability that gave magical protections equivalent to medium armor for example. While there are character concepts where I can see a warlock in armor its usually more because their background called for it. You were part of the town guard in dire straights you made a pact to save your town against X. So yeah you have some basic armor training. The class itself I don't really see how it leads to training in armor. But hey a invocation that protects you sure. A built in feature that does it with invocations to improve it even better imo. It just feels off, you want to have a invocation to protect you kind of like you are a warlcok making pacts for power, well you can you are just weaker than if you just slapped on a breastplate, good job warlock. As an aside I kind of prefer when its not just the spell and at will as then it has weird effects on other features like an abjurers ward.
Really then, we should move the baseline Warlock stuff out of spells and invocations and just make them class features.
Level 1 - Learn EB and gain your Pact Boon Level 2 - Gain AB + magical armour + 1 Invocation of your choice Level 3 - Subclass Feature Level 4 - ASI + 1 Invocation of your choice Level 5 - Gain Extra Attack or + 1 beam with your EB Level 6 - Gain Improved Pact weapon (Blade) or Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome) or Familar gains magic attacks + uses your spell attack and spell DC for its abilities (Chain) Level 7 - Gain 1 invocation of your choice + Subclass Feature Level 8 - ASI Level 9 - Gain 1 invocation of your choice Level 10 - Subclass Feature Level 11 - gain Lifedrinker or +1 beam with your EB or Chains of Cerceri but it's charm monster rather than Hold monster Level 12 - ASI Level 13 - MA + 1 invocation of your choice Level 14 - Subclass Feature Level 15 - MA + 1 invocation of your choice Level 16 - ASI Level 17 - MA + 1 invocation of you choice Level 18 - gain another Extra Attack or +1 beam for your EB or Chains of Cerceri Level 19 - ASI Level 20 - Eldritch Master
I'm guessing no one talking about "invocation tax" would mind then if the number of invocations you get is reduced to account for all of the previously-optional additions to pact boons.
So like your paycheck they tax you before you even see the money. I don't think that removes the invocation tax, it just makes it less visible.
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So... I may be guilty of having played Dungeons and Dragons Online (the MMO) a few times. More than once. Let's say a reasonable amount. (She's lying!)
In DDO, Warlocks got one of their damage components of their Eldritch Blast from their pact. Acid from Great Old Ones (Cthulhu melts!), Lightning from Celestial, and so on. Now that we've seen Warlock UA5's familiar dealing damage based on the pact type, would it be a good idea to standardise Hex bonus damage (and possibly other bonus damage dice from various invocative sources?) to that same damage type? Just a note on those abilities saying "dealing 1d6 pact damage type", and then add a line to each pact about which damage type it provides? I feel like that would quell a number of the "I don't want Hex because NECROTIC!" arguments.
Wait. I think someone already suggested something like this further up, or in another thread. But I'm lazy and sleepy. So if someone did, just consider this my support of their earlier and obviously genius suggestion.
EDIT: My reading comprehension skills have brought it to my attention that Warlock familiars don't deal damage type based on your pact, but on what kind of familiar type you choose to summon. Well. Uhm. My argument, albeit flawed, still stands! So there.
But, also, yeah - expanding on invocations would be several shades of awesome all at once.
My feedback was for EB to be slightly nerfed to get it's damage type flavored by your pact, fiend=fire, undead=necrotic, celestial=radiant, etc. Force is boring.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I agree the damage for EB and Hex should be based on your patron. However it doesn’t need to be nerfed.
For sure. It's where WotC, unfortunately, dropped the ball with the playtest but have said they'll lean into more. However, considering what they've said about other aspects of the playtests and then having seen their limited or misguided execution, I don't hold much hope that they'll give the breadth or depth of Invocations required.
This is a good example of where they should go, removing the Invocation tax options. These should have been wrapped up with Pact Choice the same way Thirsting Blade, etc. were. No one is going to complain about that in the same way no one complained Pact Weapon gained Eldritch Warrior and Thirsting Blade (except for the MC abuse); you've already decided that's the playstyle you want. Instead Invocations should be to give you options (status conditions, utility, out of class spells) rather than keep pace mechanically in your chosen playstyle. It's why Agonising Blast was bad Invocation design.
Rabbit hole thoughts about Hex below:
Personally, I'm a fan of making Hex the central theme and feature of the warlock as a "X per Long/Short Rest" ability (Short Rest if playtest Warlock, Long Rest if 5e PHB) instead of a spell. Remove the requirement for Concentration, improve upon it by Subclass and Invocations. Want your Hex for social encounters? Archfey means you can Charm/ Frighten Hex'd creatures or Mass Hex Invocation (made up as example) lets you give a Charisma debuff to multiple creatures. Combat? Fiend lets you gain thp for killing (or hitting?) Hex'd creatures and Hex damage auto scales with Warlock level (or Cha). Debuff or spy? GOO telepathically links and can Daze, etc. Heal? Celestial makes Hex a healing/defensive/buff effect on an ally. Battlefield control & combat? Lethargic/Repelling/Grasping/Maddening/Relentless Hex. Hex being a class feature also means you're not wasting limited spell slots on it, which can be employed for other things in or out of combat.
Changing Eldritch Blast Invocations to Hex Invocations then just makes EB another vector of Warlock attack, rather than the only one. This means Pact of Chain/Blade builds don't have to rely on the off-playstyle cantrip to stay competitive for damage.
EDIT: Clarify my suggestion requires Hex to be Concentration free.
Derailing train of thought time!
What would you think about new pacts? Blade is the fighty pact, Book is the casty one, and Chain is ostensibly the petty... uh... pet-oriented pact. Somewhere along the line maybe Talisman shows back up as the supporty pact.
But what more can we imagine? In one of the warlock threads (maybe even this one?), there was an argument about how warlocks are half casters and half... what? Ought the pact establish that remaining part a bit more?
How about a somewhat skill-focused pact? Pact of the... Mask? Giving you a flexible proficiency or two, that is upgraded to expertise at level 5?
Pact of the Banner, a defensive and protective alternative. Grants heavy armour and shield training. Allows you to impose disadvantage on attacks aimed at your allies if you are within a certain distance? At 5th level it improves to giving your additional HP and being able to share the pain of an ally as with Warding Bond.
These are bad changes, taking something that is currently free and independent and tying it to one particular concentration spell is bad. Hex should get invocations to buff it if it remains a core feature of the class like EB does, but it shouldn't be subclass dependent and they should be a choice not required. Subclasses should have their own features that work regardless of which invocations you choose or which pact boon you choose. Any class that has spellcasting shouldn't be forced to cast / concentrate on one particular spell to use their other features, as you're taking away half of their spell list when you do so.
You misunderstand me but that's my fault for not being clearer.
The glaring omission from my suggestion (which I'll go edit now) would be the requirement to remove Concentration from Hex (in addition to it not being using precious spell slots).
Now the Eldritch Blast Invocations becoming Hex Invocations makes them more flexible, not restricted, as previously they only benefited those casting Eldritch Blast, now they benefit a warlock using any of the attack tools in their arsenal (so long as they target a Hexed creature but that's a feature, not a bug in this suggested design).
For subclass, I wasn't suggesting restricting any Invocations, I was suggesting giving more features or expanding their features to tie into Hex. A Fiendlock already gains tHP from defeating an enemy; granting it on hitting a Hexed creature is additional, not restricting, and of limited benefit. Likewise, Dark Ones Own Luck could be used to negatively affect a Hexed creature in addition to the beneficial use you gain currently.
Hopefully that clarifies what I inadequately described before.
Changing from force to anything else is a soft nerf based on resistances
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Definitely do not want to see a hex focus. That’s a class killer as far as I am concerned
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Each to their own. For me it feels like the most obvious thematic identity and screams for more development but I'm not fussed either way.
What I do get frustrated by, is WotC half-assing it like they did in the playtest with both Hex and Hunter's Mark. If it's a class feature it needs to be fully developed and consistently useful through all tiers without interfering with other gameplay options (spell slots, Concentration, core action economy). Or just return them to being optional spells and don't waste class features on them.
Why is that even a spell then? Just make it a regular subclass feature like the Hunter Ranger's Colossus Slayer, or Horizon walker's +1d6 force damage thing. The only thing that making an unlimited concentration-free ability into a spell does, is it lets other characters get access to it via Magic Initiate or Magical Secrets. To be a spell an ability should meet one of these requirements:
1) be limited by spell slots
2) require concentration
3) be a choice to trade off against other spells.
I mean, that's exactly what I'm trying to say... clearly not very well. Make it a core class feature, rather than a half-hearted class spell that wastes feature space.
Strong agree. Played a warlock from 1-14 and never once cast Hex. Always wanted to do other things with my spell slots. Further- Hexblade as the natural subclass to be "curse" focused is widely considered to have some of the weakest lore & flavor. Hex absolutely should not be a class focus.
Keep in mind I'm just suggesting a new idea for Warlock and Hex design that I think has merit, not saying how it must be. This is the UA thread and I'm currently playtesting my ideas with games I'm running (if anyone's interested I can give feedback).
Now, I do understand that just being given a spell as part of a feature doesn't make it core to the gameplay. However, the playtest implementation of Hex Master implies that's exactly how WotC think. They seem to have decided EB and Hex are core spells. Fine, as you stated, you don't need to use them. However, the capstone class feature is only applicable to Hex, ergo it's been designed (badly) as a core class feature. I don't particularly want to waste my concentration on a 1st level Hex when I'm at level 18+, as you say, there are more interesting spells to cast, so I'd say the entire capstone feature is wasted and the implementation of Hex warrants another look.
3 options exist when faced with a poor design iteration like that:
It's funny you mention features being worthwhile if they don't deliver extra damage because I totally agree, despite your condescension. I think Hex and Hunter's Mark are boring as +XdX damage and wasting great fluff. My ideal visions for redesigned Hex and Hunter's Mark wouldn't do damage as the base function, instead being party buffs (Hunter's Mark increases attack bonus for whole party) and single target debuffs (Hex gives disadvantage on ability checks and saving throws). Damage could be layered on at higher levels or through Subclass/Invocations but isn't the core utility.
A lot of this comes down to personal taste though. For me, I like classes designed around strong core features that mesh thematically and mechanically. Thematically I like the concept and uniqueness of Hexing people. Others prefer other things.
I realise it would probably have been easier posting the whole redesign rather than explaining it in drips and drabs. Ah well, hindsight.
That is my preference for the class but it does stray from warlock historically which was more eldritch blast focused. But if hex were a ability instead of a spell and it did some basic default thing similar to like marking in 4e but a debuff of some kind even if its just thje current versions disadvantage on ability checks thing because its a hex. And invocations and sub classes juiced it up I think it could be a really fun way to play the class. Especially if the add ons were less generic than do more damage. Sure have the shoves, the damage in there, but have really debilitating effects, things for social situations, things that felt like it was a full on curse
i want to see hex set up interesting per subclass interactions worth the spell slot and concentration. like hex charming the foe or making you invisible to only them. or causing their speech to come out in a language you know but their allies might not. or give them vertigo, requiring an acrobatics check to not fall prone when moving 15ft or more. or cause them to become socially hostile to everyone including their allies (maybe dampen "pack tactics" in combat). or causing them to exude 1d2 static electric damage to one or two friendlies a round. or give them a sense of unease, claustrophobia, and shortness of breath within 30ft of you which (upon intimidate check) may cause them want to wander away to fresh air (non combat) or flee from a fight with you. etc etc...
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Strongly agreed on invocation tax, and your hex ideas are actually great, loving it.
On the opposite side or somewhat related to invocation taxes I will say I am not a fan of medium armor as it makes an already weak invocation armor of shadows even weaker. I'm sure it polled well as medium armor is better than light armor. But the polls on the features are very off and on. They aren't contextual questions like would you prefer medium armor or a class ability that gave magical protections equivalent to medium armor for example. While there are character concepts where I can see a warlock in armor its usually more because their background called for it. You were part of the town guard in dire straights you made a pact to save your town against X. So yeah you have some basic armor training. The class itself I don't really see how it leads to training in armor. But hey a invocation that protects you sure. A built in feature that does it with invocations to improve it even better imo. It just feels off, you want to have a invocation to protect you kind of like you are a warlcok making pacts for power, well you can you are just weaker than if you just slapped on a breastplate, good job warlock. As an aside I kind of prefer when its not just the spell and at will as then it has weird effects on other features like an abjurers ward.
Really then, we should move the baseline Warlock stuff out of spells and invocations and just make them class features.
Level 1 - Learn EB and gain your Pact Boon
Level 2 - Gain AB + magical armour + 1 Invocation of your choice
Level 3 - Subclass Feature
Level 4 - ASI + 1 Invocation of your choice
Level 5 - Gain Extra Attack or + 1 beam with your EB
Level 6 - Gain Improved Pact weapon (Blade) or Book of Ancient Secrets (Tome) or Familar gains magic attacks + uses your spell attack and spell DC for its abilities (Chain)
Level 7 - Gain 1 invocation of your choice + Subclass Feature
Level 8 - ASI
Level 9 - Gain 1 invocation of your choice
Level 10 - Subclass Feature
Level 11 - gain Lifedrinker or +1 beam with your EB or Chains of Cerceri but it's charm monster rather than Hold monster
Level 12 - ASI
Level 13 - MA + 1 invocation of your choice
Level 14 - Subclass Feature
Level 15 - MA + 1 invocation of your choice
Level 16 - ASI
Level 17 - MA + 1 invocation of you choice
Level 18 - gain another Extra Attack or +1 beam for your EB or Chains of Cerceri
Level 19 - ASI
Level 20 - Eldritch Master
So like your paycheck they tax you before you even see the money. I don't think that removes the invocation tax, it just makes it less visible.