Fly is good for puzzle solving only when the puzzle involves an unobstructed path from Point A to to Point B, and there’s already flying PC races, so it’s not like this isn’t already a consideration a DM can be expected to account for.
flying races get lumped in with high-armor, elemental immunity, super long-range weapons, famous face, etc on the dm's sticky-note reminder to add in some time-sink roadblock that they can overcome in mere moments, showcasing their quirk and saving the day. but it doesn't end there. everyone on the list is always asking for more detail of every area in case this is another chance to show off. somehow a wizard having fly has never rubbed me that way, even when they're casting it on the rogue or whatnot. probably because they agonize over whether to use the spell slot as opposed to an invocation where the warlock would just have it daily, use it or lose it. shrug.
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Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
If you want that, you can play an Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The entire mechanical point of the Warlock was an alternative system whose spell power kept pace with full casters. Making them half casters completely destroyed that point and meant anything you could do as a caster, another class could do better.
No it wasnt. The 2014 warlock can't even pretend to be in the same category as the sorc or wizard as full casters.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
If you want that, you can play an Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The entire mechanical point of the Warlock was an alternative system whose spell power kept pace with full casters. Making them half casters completely destroyed that point and meant anything you could do as a caster, another class could do better.
No it wasnt. The 2014 warlock can't even pretend to be in the same category as the sorc or wizard as full casters.
Correct; it was its own category. However, it natively gained access to spell levels at the same rate, as opposed to having to earmark about half its invocations to achieve that, on top of boon support and, if you went Chain, Agonizing Blast. My current 8th level warlock build would lose at over half of its high level spells at least under the new system, and would have to sacrifice at-will invocations like Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces to preserve the others without losing boon support or AB. The new model was objectively a downgrade in terms of capabilities and ultimate flexibility of design.
Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
If you want that, you can play an Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The entire mechanical point of the Warlock was an alternative system whose spell power kept pace with full casters. Making them half casters completely destroyed that point and meant anything you could do as a caster, another class could do better.
Thank you. Continues to flabbergast me how many people can’t do the math and understand this point.
Scaling is multiple different features in one invocation is close to a subclass, and trees of invocations to progress features is too complex. And TBH with the level requirements it really isn't necessary.
There's a lot of invocations it would be simple to fix. For example
Armor of Shadows: you learn the pact armor spell. This spell is a clone of the pact weapon spell, except replace 'weapon' with 'armor' and 'simple or martial' with 'light or medium', and some other small bonus such as +1 AC.
Ascendant Step: replace Levitate with Fly
Beast Speech: you may cast Animal Friendship, Speak with Animals, and Animal Messenger without expending a spell slot (not as strong as it sounds...two of those are rituals)
Eldritch Sight: you can cast Detect Magic or Detect Evil and Good without spending a spell slot (at least the second isn't a ritual...still not amazing).
Eyes of the Rune Keeper: you can read all writing, as if you were affected by comprehend languages. If text is magically obscured, you see through it as if you had truesight. You may use all spell scrolls as if the spell were on your spell list.
Fiendish Vigor: as an action, you gain 1d4+your warlock level temporary hit points.
Mask of Many Faces: You can cast disguise self without expending a spell slot. You gain proficiency with deception, or expertise if you are already proficient. At level 15, you may also cast alter self without expending a spell slot; if you do so, it does not require concentration.
Misty Visions: You can cast silent image without expending a spell slot or using material components. At level 9 this becomes [Tooltip Not Found].
One with Shadows: while in dim light or darkness, you may cast invisibility on yourself without expending a spell slot. In addition to normal ways of ending the spell, it ends if you are ever in bright light.
Otherworldly Leap: replace Jump with Misty Step.
So you want one invocation to give instant and unlimited access to up to three different spells, be able to ignore a mechanic that applies to every spellcasting class, give unlimited access to 60-feet flight speed, be able to limitlessly give significant amounts of temporary HP, cast spells that ignore concentration, or give unlimited bonus-action teleportation.
As always, "fixing" things amounts to making them wildly overpowered because utility is treated as useless.
Genie Warlock gets functionally at-will concentration free fly at level 6. Boots of Flying are an uncommon item meaning per the XGTE treasure guides is balanced as early as level 1.
How in the world would getting Fly that actually requires concentration at level 9 be broken??
Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
If you want that, you can play an Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The entire mechanical point of the Warlock was an alternative system whose spell power kept pace with full casters. Making them half casters completely destroyed that point and meant anything you could do as a caster, another class could do better.
No it wasnt. The 2014 warlock can't even pretend to be in the same category as the sorc or wizard as full casters.
The thing with 5e!Warlock is that if they didn't get short rests, they'd get very little to do compared to other casters, but if they did get short rests, then they got to cast their higher-level spells many times more than other casters would get to, to the point of getting almost as many pact-slot casts as other casters would get in total, with minimal compromise in casting ability above 5th-level until very late levels.
5e!Warlock was wildly imbalanced, and you can tell which folks got the short end of the stick and which folks got the short-rest end.
Which is why you fix the refresh mechanic and pact slot count, not trash their casting ability and tax what used to be their crucial late game strength.
Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
Where as half caster absolutely destroyed what I liked about the 2014 warlock.
Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
If you want that, you can play an Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The entire mechanical point of the Warlock was an alternative system whose spell power kept pace with full casters. Making them half casters completely destroyed that point and meant anything you could do as a caster, another class could do better.
No it wasnt. The 2014 warlock can't even pretend to be in the same category as the sorc or wizard as full casters.
The thing with 5e!Warlock is that if they didn't get short rests, they'd get very little to do compared to other casters, but if they did get short rests, then they got to cast their higher-level spells many times more than other casters would get to, to the point of getting almost as many pact-slot casts as other casters would get in total, with minimal compromise in casting ability above 5th-level until very late levels.
5e!Warlock was wildly imbalanced, and you can tell which folks got the short end of the stick and which folks got the short-rest end.
Warlocks don't get feats that improve their spellcasting like Sorcerer do and had a much more limited spell list than Wizard and Sorcerer, more so Wizard. The game was generally based around the idea of 2 short rests, so a maximum total of 6 casts for warlock. Warlock might be one of the best classes in a survival situation, by getting lots of short rests Warlock and Fighter would be more powerful but isn't how the game is generally designed and why warlock more so is generally considered to be a bit underpowered, for a caster.
Pact magic was far from game breaking. I think the complaints about coffeelocks was overblown as well.
Generally speaking, I think pact magic was rather weak, but then again, it was supposed to be. Warlock, with EB spam was a fully functional martial character. If you can accept that as fact, then it's easy to see how it would be easy to let spellcasting features turn warlock into something massively overpowered. Pact magic was an interesting concept, that I think left a bit to be desired as a spellcaster. The new warlock as a half caster fixed that problems, but now we're being nerfed back into pact casters. If you remove the 'but muh unique system' complaints, the half caster variant that was presented was flat out mechanically superior in nearly every way to what we had with pact magic.
Pact magic can't be game breaking, if it's inferior.
Half caster didn’t fix anything; it traded quality for quantity and ended up with the worst of both worlds; any casting you could do, someone else could do better, and there are better classes for martial augmented by spells.
half Caster absolutely fixed the things I did not like about the 2014 warlock. I wanted low level spell slots I could use, without having to blow higher level slots on things like shield, hex, and misty step. The invocation selection is overrated. I'd much rather blow one on fireball than on something like disguise self.
As far as martials, the warlock was, and till would have been a better archer than the ranger, and arguably better than the fighter.
If you want that, you can play an Artificer, Sorcerer, or Wizard. The entire mechanical point of the Warlock was an alternative system whose spell power kept pace with full casters. Making them half casters completely destroyed that point and meant anything you could do as a caster, another class could do better.
No it wasnt. The 2014 warlock can't even pretend to be in the same category as the sorc or wizard as full casters.
The thing with 5e!Warlock is that if they didn't get short rests, they'd get very little to do compared to other casters, but if they did get short rests, then they got to cast their higher-level spells many times more than other casters would get to, to the point of getting almost as many pact-slot casts as other casters would get in total, with minimal compromise in casting ability above 5th-level until very late levels.
5e!Warlock was wildly imbalanced, and you can tell which folks got the short end of the stick and which folks got the short-rest end.
Which is why you fix the refresh mechanic and pact slot count, not trash their casting ability and tax what used to be their crucial late game strength.
Which really means that you want to be able to get even more higher-level casts than every other caster than a Warlock already can, without any compromise to Warlocks already getting the same level of 6th-level and higher spell slots.
Warlocks are imbalanced. The creators know it, and the people complaining about having it taken away are especially aware of it, hence the blatant attitude of being victimized by such a change.
Have you considered having conversations with people without insulting them.
Warlocks are imbalanced. The creators know it, and the people complaining about having it taken away are especially aware of it, hence the blatant attitude of being victimized by such a change.
Warlocks are not widely considered a top tier class. The two that have historically been on everyone's top tier are wizard and paladin.
They're unbalanced, yes. No one here is saying they're perfect the way they are, or that they need 6 level 5 slots per SR. However, being half caster means they lose almost all their spellcasting kick, and Invocations don't make up the difference.
What about an escalating rest mechanic for pact magic? Meaning something like-
“You may recover your pact magic slots in 1 minute once per day. After that you may recover them on a short rest once per day. After recovering pact slots both of these ways, you must complete a long rest to recover pact slots and the ability to recover them quickly.”
That could be really interesting way to differentiate them, give them their 2 short rest days they are actually balanced around without allowing for infinite short rest recovery to satisfy Captain smooth brain on this thread.
They're unbalanced, yes. No one here is saying they're perfect the way they are, or that they need 6 level 5 slots per SR. However, being half caster means they lose almost all their spellcasting kick, and Invocations don't make up the difference.
But that's the thing, having played straight warlock twice, and a warlock multiclass twice, never did I feel like warlock had a "spellcasting kick". I never cast more than one spell per combat (ok once I used Thunderstep twice because to evacuate people when we had to flee a combat), and only occasionally cast spells out of combat. Could one of you please explain how you played a warlock in such a way as to have it feel like a full caster? Or whatever this "spellcasting kick" is?
- what spells are you casting? when are you casting them? how are they super impactful?
They're unbalanced, yes. No one here is saying they're perfect the way they are, or that they need 6 level 5 slots per SR. However, being half caster means they lose almost all their spellcasting kick, and Invocations don't make up the difference.
But that's the thing, having played straight warlock twice, and a warlock multiclass twice, never did I feel like warlock had a "spellcasting kick". I never cast more than one spell per combat (ok once I used Thunderstep twice because to evacuate people when we had to flee a combat), and only occasionally cast spells out of combat. Could one of you please explain how you played a warlock in such a way as to have it feel like a full caster? Or whatever this "spellcasting kick" is?
- what spells are you casting? when are you casting them? how are they super impactful?
Warlock gets some iconic spells that feel awesome. Thunderstep isn’t necessarily one I would call awesome. Eldritch Vlast, Armor for Agathys, Hunger of Hadar, Shadow of Moil, Synaptic Static- these are my bread and butters and feel impactful on the battlefield.
They're unbalanced, yes. No one here is saying they're perfect the way they are, or that they need 6 level 5 slots per SR. However, being half caster means they lose almost all their spellcasting kick, and Invocations don't make up the difference.
But that's the thing, having played straight warlock twice, and a warlock multiclass twice, never did I feel like warlock had a "spellcasting kick". I never cast more than one spell per combat (ok once I used Thunderstep twice because to evacuate people when we had to flee a combat), and only occasionally cast spells out of combat. Could one of you please explain how you played a warlock in such a way as to have it feel like a full caster? Or whatever this "spellcasting kick" is?
- what spells are you casting? when are you casting them? how are they super impactful?
In singular fights they normally wont. But encounter 3 after the sorcerer and other pure casters have used their top slots and screwing around with low level spells and I pop off with 2-3 top level spells it gives you a different impactful vibe because you were fully ready to go after a short rest. Its a different play style unique to the class. Or heck encounter one at tables where you do expect multiple encounters the warlock is more willing to go all in to make the fight easier, they still have eldritch blast to cover them in the next fight, and after a couple encounters the party will short rest and they are ready to go. If people want to play a normal caster 3/4 of the classes are there for them. Let people who liked the different style have one option among casters. Just one, we aren't saying change all classes over to this though that would be more balanced for the game, but give us just this one. My issue impact wise isn't with the warlock per se but they gave the wizard a short rest recharge themselves. They are swimming in slots and get basically 1/2 of the warlocks short rest recharge once per day.
And...there we get to the crux of the matter. Resource management, especially for spellcasters, is a significant aspect of the game and of balance. Every other caster has to weigh their options and decide when the time is best to use their higher-level spells, which they may only get one or two shots of per day, and when to use their lower-level spells.
Meanwhile the Warlock gets to fire off their high-level spells twice per short rest up to level 10, then get more fifth-level casts above level 10 while matching other casters in 6th-level and above progression until very late levels. As long as the Warlock gets their short rests, they don't have to manage their resources like other casters. And even if they do blow through their resources, then they have the strongest cantrip in the game to fall back on anyway (which at late levels scales better than low-level damage spells).
It's about being fully aware about getting to use their biggest spells much, much more often than every other caster.
Also, the Wizard's Arcane Recovery requires them to be 20th-level in order to recover two 5th-level spells on a short rest, once per day. The Warlock gets that the moment they hit Level 9, can do it as many times a day as they get short rests, and gets more 5th-level slots per short rest once they get more spell slots.
This is a completely fake, white room fear as evidenced by the very fact that WOTC is trying to “fix” warlock having enough spell slots per LR. All of your arguments in this thread betray an extreme lack of actual play time with warlock. No table ever takes like the hypothetical 5 short rests a day you seem to be terrified of. Survey after survey shows many tables take no short rests or one much less the two per LR the actual math in the game is balanced around.
Frankly, the only way you're going to get "abuse" of warlock's short rest recovery is if you're doing the suggested/recommended 6-8 encounters per game day. Situations where the party is racing against a ticking clock excluded, if the party is traveling, anything more than two short rests is very uncommon.
Ticking clocks and/or being in the middle of enemy territory (a hold run by bugbears, a multilevel dungeon populated by active, hostile factions and critters) pretty much mean you can't take a short rest (or that taking them - especially more than one - is begging for the bad guys to find you and interrupt any attempted rest).
Then if it is the "I get all my slots back on a SR" that people like about warlock, then you can't have more spell slots because of game balance as Lilith mentioned. You can't have both as many slots as a full caster and get them back on a SR and get Fighter-level damage with a cantrip. That's just making Warlock far far more powerful than any other caster in the game.
So with this in mind. I present you a some options that would be reasonably balanced:
1) 2014 Warlock : Only 2 slots that recharge on a SR, but scale like a full caster
2) Hybrid Rest Warlock : Number of spell slots equivalent in number to Cleric Channel Divinities in the UA that scale like a full caster, but only regain 1 expended slot on a SR.
3) Spread Warlock : Only 1 spell slot per spell level (e.g. 1x 1st, 1x 2nd, 1x 3rd, ...) scaling like a full caster, but you regain all of them on a SR once per day (increasing to 2x per day at level 11).
4) Half-caster UA Warlock : Full half-caster scaling plus more Invocation (MA) spells and subclass spells that give 1 free cast per long rest.
And...there we get to the crux of the matter. Resource management, especially for spellcasters, is a significant aspect of the game and of balance. Every other caster has to weigh their options and decide when the time is best to use their higher-level spells, which they may only get one or two shots of per day, and when to use their lower-level spells.
Meanwhile the Warlock gets to fire off their high-level spells twice per short rest up to level 10, then get more fifth-level casts above level 10 while matching other casters in 6th-level and above progression until very late levels. As long as the Warlock gets their short rests, they don't have to manage their resources like other casters. And even if they do blow through their resources, then they have the strongest cantrip in the game to fall back on anyway (which at late levels scales better than low-level damage spells).
It's about being fully aware about getting to use their biggest spells much, much more often than every other caster.
Also, the Wizard's Arcane Recovery requires them to be 20th-level in order to recover two 5th-level spells on a short rest, once per day. The Warlock gets that the moment they hit Level 9, can do it as many times a day as they get short rests, and gets more 5th-level slots per short rest once they get more spell slots.
This is a completely fake, white room fear as evidenced by the very fact that WOTC is trying to “fix” warlock having enough spell slots per LR. All of your arguments in this thread betray an extreme lack of actual play time with warlock. No table ever takes like the hypothetical 5 short rests a day you seem to be terrified of. Survey after survey shows many tables take no short rests or one much less the two per LR the actual math in the game is balanced around.
So let's assume two short rests a day, and we'll compare the standard caster progression to Warlock.
At level 1, a standard caster gets two 1st-level casts. The Warlock gets six 1st-level casts.
At level 3, other casters have four 1st-level casts and two 2nd-level casts. The Warlock gets six 2nd-level casts in total.
The Warlock retains the pattern of getting six casts matching other casters' highest level (capping at 3 slots until 5th-level which caps at 2, versus a Warlock getting six). Then at level 11, the Warlock gets a third pact slot, bringing their 5th-level casts up to nine in total—while other casters have only two 5th-level slots, and 13 slots in total of 4th and below.
At level 17, when the Warlock gains their fourth pact slot, that gives them a total of 12 5th-level casts per day. Other casters only gain their third 5th-level slot at the next level, and at level 17, other casters have a total of 15 slots of 5th-level and below. A late-game Warlock can cast almost as many 5th-level spells as other casters can cast from 1st-level to 5th-level.
And between Level 11 to Level 18, a Warlock has equal access to spells of 6th-level and above. Only once other casters get to level 19 and 20 do they get more uses of 6th- and 7th-level spells.
With only two short rests, the Warlock is significantly imbalanced compared to other casters. And that's all without considering invocations that give them access to numerous utility options without slot cost (and in some instances being unlimited in use!) and getting the strongest cantrip.
(And, again, the problem with Warlock is that they then have very little to go on compared to standard casters if they don't get those short rests is the inherent problem of pact magic versus standard spellcasting, that the class can swing from "not even a half-caster" to "full-and-a-half caster".)
Sigh….
Warlock has 1 slot at 1st level so they get 3 casts with 2 short rests, not 6 as you assert. Wizard will have arcane recovery so they will also have 3 casts with 2 short rests.
I’m not gonna tit for tat disassemble the rest of the poorly rendered arguments except to point out that Mystic Arcanum is not NEAR as powerful of a feature as actual 6-9 spell slots so this statement “warlock has equal access to spells of 6th level and above” is wildly, patently false. Warlocks get no up casting, have no flexibility to learn more than one of these spells, have a much more limited selection of these spells and most other full casters get to change them out on a LR or at least a level up at minimum while warlock RAW pick one and are done.
And for someone who has spent half the thread complaining about people not appreciating the potential power of things like invocations, you seem blithely unaware of overlooking the potential penalty of the “low slots, fast recharge” mechanic. Why is it so hard to believe some of us LIKE the idea of some days feeling like a half caster and some days feel like a “full and a half caster” to use your words.
And as I’ve shared previously, most of us are fine with something to make warlock recharge more consistent at the expense of unlimited recharges.
flying races get lumped in with high-armor, elemental immunity, super long-range weapons, famous face, etc on the dm's sticky-note reminder to add in some time-sink roadblock that they can overcome in mere moments, showcasing their quirk and saving the day. but it doesn't end there. everyone on the list is always asking for more detail of every area in case this is another chance to show off. somehow a wizard having fly has never rubbed me that way, even when they're casting it on the rogue or whatnot. probably because they agonize over whether to use the spell slot as opposed to an invocation where the warlock would just have it daily, use it or lose it. shrug.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
No it wasnt. The 2014 warlock can't even pretend to be in the same category as the sorc or wizard as full casters.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Correct; it was its own category. However, it natively gained access to spell levels at the same rate, as opposed to having to earmark about half its invocations to achieve that, on top of boon support and, if you went Chain, Agonizing Blast. My current 8th level warlock build would lose at over half of its high level spells at least under the new system, and would have to sacrifice at-will invocations like Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces to preserve the others without losing boon support or AB. The new model was objectively a downgrade in terms of capabilities and ultimate flexibility of design.
Thank you. Continues to flabbergast me how many people can’t do the math and understand this point.
Genie Warlock gets functionally at-will concentration free fly at level 6. Boots of Flying are an uncommon item meaning per the XGTE treasure guides is balanced as early as level 1.
How in the world would getting Fly that actually requires concentration at level 9 be broken??
Which is why you fix the refresh mechanic and pact slot count, not trash their casting ability and tax what used to be their crucial late game strength.
Where as half caster absolutely destroyed what I liked about the 2014 warlock.
Warlocks don't get feats that improve their spellcasting like Sorcerer do and had a much more limited spell list than Wizard and Sorcerer, more so Wizard. The game was generally based around the idea of 2 short rests, so a maximum total of 6 casts for warlock. Warlock might be one of the best classes in a survival situation, by getting lots of short rests Warlock and Fighter would be more powerful but isn't how the game is generally designed and why warlock more so is generally considered to be a bit underpowered, for a caster.
Have you considered having conversations with people without insulting them.
Warlocks are not widely considered a top tier class. The two that have historically been on everyone's top tier are wizard and paladin.
They're unbalanced, yes. No one here is saying they're perfect the way they are, or that they need 6 level 5 slots per SR. However, being half caster means they lose almost all their spellcasting kick, and Invocations don't make up the difference.
That's just not how they roll.
What about an escalating rest mechanic for pact magic? Meaning something like-
“You may recover your pact magic slots in 1 minute once per day. After that you may recover them on a short rest once per day. After recovering pact slots both of these ways, you must complete a long rest to recover pact slots and the ability to recover them quickly.”
That could be really interesting way to differentiate them, give them their 2 short rest days they are actually balanced around without allowing for infinite short rest recovery to satisfy Captain smooth brain on this thread.
But that's the thing, having played straight warlock twice, and a warlock multiclass twice, never did I feel like warlock had a "spellcasting kick". I never cast more than one spell per combat (ok once I used Thunderstep twice because to evacuate people when we had to flee a combat), and only occasionally cast spells out of combat. Could one of you please explain how you played a warlock in such a way as to have it feel like a full caster? Or whatever this "spellcasting kick" is?
- what spells are you casting? when are you casting them? how are they super impactful?
Warlock gets some iconic spells that feel awesome. Thunderstep isn’t necessarily one I would call awesome. Eldritch Vlast, Armor for Agathys, Hunger of Hadar, Shadow of Moil, Synaptic Static- these are my bread and butters and feel impactful on the battlefield.
In singular fights they normally wont. But encounter 3 after the sorcerer and other pure casters have used their top slots and screwing around with low level spells and I pop off with 2-3 top level spells it gives you a different impactful vibe because you were fully ready to go after a short rest. Its a different play style unique to the class. Or heck encounter one at tables where you do expect multiple encounters the warlock is more willing to go all in to make the fight easier, they still have eldritch blast to cover them in the next fight, and after a couple encounters the party will short rest and they are ready to go. If people want to play a normal caster 3/4 of the classes are there for them. Let people who liked the different style have one option among casters. Just one, we aren't saying change all classes over to this though that would be more balanced for the game, but give us just this one. My issue impact wise isn't with the warlock per se but they gave the wizard a short rest recharge themselves. They are swimming in slots and get basically 1/2 of the warlocks short rest recharge once per day.
This is a completely fake, white room fear as evidenced by the very fact that WOTC is trying to “fix” warlock having enough spell slots per LR. All of your arguments in this thread betray an extreme lack of actual play time with warlock. No table ever takes like the hypothetical 5 short rests a day you seem to be terrified of. Survey after survey shows many tables take no short rests or one much less the two per LR the actual math in the game is balanced around.
Frankly, the only way you're going to get "abuse" of warlock's short rest recovery is if you're doing the suggested/recommended 6-8 encounters per game day. Situations where the party is racing against a ticking clock excluded, if the party is traveling, anything more than two short rests is very uncommon.
Ticking clocks and/or being in the middle of enemy territory (a hold run by bugbears, a multilevel dungeon populated by active, hostile factions and critters) pretty much mean you can't take a short rest (or that taking them - especially more than one - is begging for the bad guys to find you and interrupt any attempted rest).
Then if it is the "I get all my slots back on a SR" that people like about warlock, then you can't have more spell slots because of game balance as Lilith mentioned. You can't have both as many slots as a full caster and get them back on a SR and get Fighter-level damage with a cantrip. That's just making Warlock far far more powerful than any other caster in the game.
So with this in mind. I present you a some options that would be reasonably balanced:
1) 2014 Warlock : Only 2 slots that recharge on a SR, but scale like a full caster
2) Hybrid Rest Warlock : Number of spell slots equivalent in number to Cleric Channel Divinities in the UA that scale like a full caster, but only regain 1 expended slot on a SR.
3) Spread Warlock : Only 1 spell slot per spell level (e.g. 1x 1st, 1x 2nd, 1x 3rd, ...) scaling like a full caster, but you regain all of them on a SR once per day (increasing to 2x per day at level 11).
4) Half-caster UA Warlock : Full half-caster scaling plus more Invocation (MA) spells and subclass spells that give 1 free cast per long rest.
Which would you choose?
Sigh….
Warlock has 1 slot at 1st level so they get 3 casts with 2 short rests, not 6 as you assert. Wizard will have arcane recovery so they will also have 3 casts with 2 short rests.
I’m not gonna tit for tat disassemble the rest of the poorly rendered arguments except to point out that Mystic Arcanum is not NEAR as powerful of a feature as actual 6-9 spell slots so this statement “warlock has equal access to spells of 6th level and above” is wildly, patently false. Warlocks get no up casting, have no flexibility to learn more than one of these spells, have a much more limited selection of these spells and most other full casters get to change them out on a LR or at least a level up at minimum while warlock RAW pick one and are done.
And for someone who has spent half the thread complaining about people not appreciating the potential power of things like invocations, you seem blithely unaware of overlooking the potential penalty of the “low slots, fast recharge” mechanic. Why is it so hard to believe some of us LIKE the idea of some days feeling like a half caster and some days feel like a “full and a half caster” to use your words.
And as I’ve shared previously, most of us are fine with something to make warlock recharge more consistent at the expense of unlimited recharges.