I don't think the point here is to counter Sorcerer. Its really sad to see many people raging about that the intention is to nerf Sorcerer.
The point is:
1) All full caster should have compatible in terms of magic strength. That means Savings DC, should be the same for all casters.
2) But each class should have their flavor.
3) Forcing Multiclassing to get one Perk is a bad design.
e.g. Action Surge being used to cast Magic is one of them.
About the Wizards, what they lack, is some how to modify their spells. Fireball is always Fireball. If your enemy has resistance to your prepared spells, you just sit and watch. That's why metamagic feats is so strong and cool and they should be !!!!
Modify Spell is needed just to give us some options to to play with.
1) Then Sorcerers should be getting access to a lot more spells
2) How, you literally want them to be the same.
3) Don’t multiclass to get the perk. You aren’t forced and the perk isn’t that great and comes at the cost of you higher level spells.
Wizards don’t need to modify spells because they have more spells available to them. They can have fireball and lightning bolt prepared because it only takes them one minute to get any non combat spell thanks to memorize spell. They also are still the only class that just needs a ritual in their book to cast it. A wizard is a versatile caster who can have more spells available to them from a larger spell list. Sorcerers do more with a much smaller amount of spells. That is the flavor. If you let wizards do everything sorcerers do then there is no flavor.
1) This topic is about Wizards and not about Sorcerer. You mixing your feelings with the topic discussion. if you think Sorcerer should have access to more spells, cool. Open a thread to discuss it, you are most welcome.
2) What are you trying to say here? Wizards and Sorcerer are very different, (Have you played both?). Every level progression and abilities are different . But yet, they are full caster, with their own lore.
3) This argument is very poor. Saying just "don't use it" is not a good argument neither is a good design. What's your argument not multiclassing?
Wizards don’t need to modify spells because they have more spells available to them. They can have fireball and lightning bolt prepared because it only takes them one minute to get any non combat spell thanks to memorize spell. They also are still the only class that just needs a ritual in their book to cast it. A wizard is a versatile caster who can have more spells available to them from a larger spell list. Sorcerers do more with a much smaller amount of spells. That is the flavor. If you let wizards do everything sorcerers do then there is no flavor.
Do you think Wizards have unlimited spells slots? Its only takes 1 minute to prepare a spell, but If you are in combat what do you do? Do you think lighting bolt and fireball can be used in the same circumstance?
Its very clear that you feel bad about Sorcerer learning less spells. What about discussing that?
1) You said sorcerers got a thing, so wizards should get it too. I replied wizards already have this thing so if you want to give wizards the the thing sorcerers are getting then you should give sorcerers the thing wizards have. You know balancing them.
2) I’m saying wizards and sorcerers are not very different and yes I have played them both. Their level progressions are mostly just more spells. Let’s talk about how they are different and what themes make them different. Wizards have more spell options (bigger list and ritual casting spells that aren’t prepared) and more spells per day (arcane recovery). Sorcerers have less spells options, but can alter spells through metamagic or use that resource to try to get more spells per day to keep up to the wizard. The Wizard now got Memorize spell Which gives them even more spell options per day and the sorcerer gets Sorcery Incarnate which for 1 minute gives them a boost in DC and Spell Attack. You want to give the sorcerers thing to the Wizard, but don’t want the Sorcerer to get the wizards thing.
I feel like they screwed the pooch with this class.
We could have had a Chipotle "create your own burrito" approach to the class's spells (with costs for extras) and I seriously feel like the wild magic table should have been for when you try to tap into the weave that you're naturally a part of when your slots are all tapped out.
Instead it's a wizard with a little bit of reflavor.
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
You got it dude.
In addition to nerfing counterspell there's still too many "cheat" spells that allow for players to completely bypass difficult encounters. The polymorph spells should be change to state willing targets, full stop and gate/dimension door/etc should reflect the same.
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
That's the spirit. Good point, we have every school of magic, but almost none is good.
1) You said sorcerers got a thing, so wizards should get it too. I replied wizards already have this thing so if you want to give wizards the the thing sorcerers are getting then you should give sorcerers the thing wizards have. You know balancing them.
2) I’m saying wizards and sorcerers are not very different and yes I have played them both. Their level progressions are mostly just more spells. Let’s talk about how they are different and what themes make them different. Wizards have more spell options (bigger list and ritual casting spells that aren’t prepared) and more spells per day (arcane recovery). Sorcerers have less spells options, but can alter spells through metamagic or use that resource to try to get more spells per day to keep up to the wizard. The Wizard now got Memorize spell Which gives them even more spell options per day and the sorcerer gets Sorcery Incarnate which for 1 minute gives them a boost in DC and Spell Attack. You want to give the sorcerers thing to the Wizard, but don’t want the Sorcerer to get the wizards thing.
3) Most Wizards don’t Multiclass. Why would you give up spell progression. So to get action surge you have to give up spell progression. So yes at Wiz 5/Fighter 2 you can drop two fireballs in one turn or do some really cool two spell thing, but you just spent two spell slots and you gave up being able to cast 4th level spells and having another 3 level spell slot. Don’t get it wrong I’ve played the heavy mage and did just that, but it comes at a cost as it should. You can have fun doing that but there is a cost and doing that and it is not mandatory. A wizard is strong on its own. Wizard are considered the one of the strongest classes in the game.
As far as Memorize Spell I said you prepare your combat spells and use Memorize spell to switch between you non combat spells. And you have rituals for non combat spells.
I don’t think Sorcerers need more spells now. They are in a healthy place right now, but I do believe transmute spell should be usable with other metamagics the way empower spell and seeking spell. Honestly the Scribes Wizard is better at switching damage types than sorcerer with transmute spell metamagic. If you give sorcerers the same amount of spells as the wizard you are killing there individual flavor. It will become do you want to be a INT Wizard or a CHA Wizard. I don’t want that. Every spellcaster does not need Innate Sorcery as you claim. If they did we would have seen this feature before now. It’s a cool little thing to attempt to create more of a difference between Sorcerers and Wizards.
Undos,
1) Never said that. What I meant were : One caster having higher spell DC than all else is a bad design. I'm not trying to nerf the Sorcerer, the topic is about the Wizard.
2) They are very different hehehe . What I'm trying to address here is giving Wizards,, a little of spell manipulation. Elements manipulations alone is needed on higher levels.
3) Exactly , they don't. if you think Action Surge casting 2 spells, that's means you prefer broken stuff. Sorry, that's not fun, that's broken.
4) I agree using 2 META with Sorcerer. you have the points, go use it. But forcing a Wizard a subclass is not ideal from changing elements.
Combat wise, Sorcerer is stronger than Wizards. Wizards also depends on its DM to have gold and scrolls. I think sorcerer should have some rituals for more utility.
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
What lost abilities, Modify Spell and Create Spell were Playtest material that rightfully died in playtest. Was it fun sure, was it horrible for game balance, absolutely. Also you haven’t really played a bunch of wizards or you wouldn’t say all their subclasses play the same. Wizard subclasses are not all built equally. Necromancer use to be one of the worse but with the new summon undead spell might be okay, but I haven’t played one or ran a game for one since the Tasha’s summon spells have been out. Abjurer is/was way stronger and with the 5e counterspell had some great counter play and the the Ward helps with survivability of you and your party when used correctly. Divination wizard has one of the best abilities in the game in portent. Bladesinger after the Tasha’s rework is just incredible. The thing about spell casters is their spell selections can make them very different. Also you can have two evocation wizards who choose different spells and they would feel like different sub classes. So I’m very confused by a complaint that calls the wizard a bland class.
1) Never said that. What I meant were : One caster having higher spell DC than all else is a bad design. I'm not trying to nerf the Sorcerer, the topic is about the Wizard.
2) They are very different hehehe . What I'm trying to address here is giving Wizards,, a little of spell manipulation. Elements manipulations alone is needed on higher levels.
3) Exactly , they don't. if you think Action Surge casting 2 spells, that's means you prefer broken stuff. Sorry, that's not fun, that's broken.
4) I agree using 2 META with Sorcerer. you have the points, go use it. But forcing a Wizard a subclass is not ideal from changing elements.
Combat wise, Sorcerer is stronger than Wizards. Wizards also depends on its DM to have gold and scrolls. I think sorcerer should have some rituals for more utility.
1) That would be true if it was a permanent thing to their Spell DC, but it’s not. Question: Is reckless attack unfair to all other martial combatants or is the Archery fighting style unfair to all ranged weapon users who can’t take it?
2) High level wizards already manipulate spells. Some do it at low levels as well. Almost every 5e and 5eR evoker ability alters spells, Conjuration Wizards 10th and 14th level ability improves spells, Necromancy while not great alters necromancy spells, and pretty much they all do something with spells. Bladesinger, Divination and transmutation are the only schools that don’t have any features that alter a spell. Technically you can use portent on a spell.
3) Action surge casting 2 spells came at a cost. It’s strong, but I never saw it as broken. Like you said Wizards don’t have infinite spell slots. Also they already decided to patch that Along with Twin Spell and any other ability that let you cast two spells in one turn.
4) Wizards shouldn’t be changing elements of their spells, they should be using a multitude of spells that cover all the elements. My 11th level Wizard with 20 Int could prepare Chromatic orb, Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Binding Ice, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Blight, Sickening Radiance, Cone of Cold, Dawn and still have 6 more spells to prepare and with the new memorize spell that another changeable prepared spell. Also the number of rituals I could have in my book that I don’t have to prepare. If my GM doesn’t ever give me scrolls to add to my spell book I still know 26 spells and could prepare 16 of them and a 17th with memorize spell.
Counterpoint, Creating a Spell (if it should be allowed at all) shouldn't be a thing only Wizards can do. It should instead be a potential downtime activity in a similar vein to crafting magic items. Restricting it to a "Wizards only" class feature gate-keeps out other character concepts of non-wizards who might just happen to like experimenting and investigating into the inner workings of magic and spell-craft. Just because its something commonly thematic to wizards doesn't mean it should be a mechanic only accessible to Wizards.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The reason it fits Wizard so well thematically is because Wizard is the scholarly academic caster choice. They're the ones who dedicated years of their lives to studying magic as a science. They learned the underpinning mathematics of how spells work and therefore have the knowledge base to read a scroll and understand how a spell is cast. The next logical step is to be able to apply their knowledge of magic to the creation of new spells.
Sorcerers don't have that academic background of learning. That is why they can't pick up a scroll and study it to learn how to cast a new spell (without levels in Wizard). They can use their intuition and innate connection to magic to alter spells on the fly, but they shouldn't be able to craft a new, unique spell that can be taught to other casters.
Warlocks, on the other hand, learn their magic directly from a patron. Therefore they know the spells their patron taught them, but they aren't able to pick up scrolls and study them for spells either. Creating an entirely new spell would be an expression of their own knowledge and skill separate from the patron and thus would probably be represented in taking Wizard levels, not more Warlock levels.
The only arcane caster class I could see creating new and unique spells is Bard. Their whole class revolves around creativity and their magic is done in the form of art or song. Creating a new song with new effects seems like it'd be loaded in flavor for them, but it might be a bit much given they're able to "steal" spells from other classes already. Bards also learn magic through study via their bard colleges. They just understand and express magic through the music of creation.
Counterpoint, Creating a Spell (if it should be allowed at all) shouldn't be a thing only Wizards can do. It should instead be a potential downtime activity in a similar vein to crafting magic items. Restricting it to a "Wizards only" class feature gate-keeps out other character concepts of non-wizards who might just happen to like experimenting and investigating into the inner workings of magic and spell-craft. Just because its something commonly thematic to wizards doesn't mean it should be a mechanic only accessible to Wizards.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The reason it fits Wizard so well thematically is because Wizard is the scholarly academic caster choice. They're the ones who dedicated years of their lives to studying magic as a science. They learned the underpinning mathematics of how spells work and therefore have the knowledge base to read a scroll and understand how a spell is cast. The next logical step is to be able to apply their knowledge of magic to the creation of new spells.
Sorcerers don't have that academic background of learning. That is why they can't pick up a scroll and study it to learn how to cast a new spell (without levels in Wizard). They can use their intuition and innate connection to magic to alter spells on the fly, but they shouldn't be able to craft a new, unique spell that can be taught to other casters.
Warlocks, on the other hand, learn their magic directly from a patron. Therefore they know the spells their patron taught them, but they aren't able to pick up scrolls and study them for spells either. Creating an entirely new spell would be an expression of their own knowledge and skill separate from the patron and thus would probably be represented in taking Wizard levels, not more Warlock levels.
The only arcane caster class I could see creating new and unique spells is Bard. Their whole class revolves around creativity and their magic is done in the form of art or song. Creating a new song with new effects seems like it'd be loaded in flavor for them, but it might be a bit much given they're able to "steal" spells from other classes already. Bards also learn magic through study via their bard colleges. They just understand and express magic through the music of creation.
Well said.
Its really sad that they just discarded Modify Spell and Create Spell.
But I think the dev team is creative and they will come up with a good Modify Spell or an alternative.
Counterpoint, Creating a Spell (if it should be allowed at all) shouldn't be a thing only Wizards can do. It should instead be a potential downtime activity in a similar vein to crafting magic items. Restricting it to a "Wizards only" class feature gate-keeps out other character concepts of non-wizards who might just happen to like experimenting and investigating into the inner workings of magic and spell-craft. Just because its something commonly thematic to wizards doesn't mean it should be a mechanic only accessible to Wizards.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The reason it fits Wizard so well thematically is because Wizard is the scholarly academic caster choice. They're the ones who dedicated years of their lives to studying magic as a science. They learned the underpinning mathematics of how spells work and therefore have the knowledge base to read a scroll and understand how a spell is cast. The next logical step is to be able to apply their knowledge of magic to the creation of new spells.
Sorcerers don't have that academic background of learning. That is why they can't pick up a scroll and study it to learn how to cast a new spell (without levels in Wizard). They can use their intuition and innate connection to magic to alter spells on the fly, but they shouldn't be able to craft a new, unique spell that can be taught to other casters.
Warlocks, on the other hand, learn their magic directly from a patron. Therefore they know the spells their patron taught them, but they aren't able to pick up scrolls and study them for spells either. Creating an entirely new spell would be an expression of their own knowledge and skill separate from the patron and thus would probably be represented in taking Wizard levels, not more Warlock levels.
The only arcane caster class I could see creating new and unique spells is Bard. Their whole class revolves around creativity and their magic is done in the form of art or song. Creating a new song with new effects seems like it'd be loaded in flavor for them, but it might be a bit much given they're able to "steal" spells from other classes already. Bards also learn magic through study via their bard colleges. They just understand and express magic through the music of creation.
I guess. But I disagree and see why all of those classes would be inventing spells just as often as the wizard.
Counterpoint, Creating a Spell (if it should be allowed at all) shouldn't be a thing only Wizards can do. It should instead be a potential downtime activity in a similar vein to crafting magic items. Restricting it to a "Wizards only" class feature gate-keeps out other character concepts of non-wizards who might just happen to like experimenting and investigating into the inner workings of magic and spell-craft. Just because its something commonly thematic to wizards doesn't mean it should be a mechanic only accessible to Wizards.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The reason it fits Wizard so well thematically is because Wizard is the scholarly academic caster choice. They're the ones who dedicated years of their lives to studying magic as a science. They learned the underpinning mathematics of how spells work and therefore have the knowledge base to read a scroll and understand how a spell is cast. The next logical step is to be able to apply their knowledge of magic to the creation of new spells.
Sorcerers don't have that academic background of learning. That is why they can't pick up a scroll and study it to learn how to cast a new spell (without levels in Wizard). They can use their intuition and innate connection to magic to alter spells on the fly, but they shouldn't be able to craft a new, unique spell that can be taught to other casters.
Warlocks, on the other hand, learn their magic directly from a patron. Therefore they know the spells their patron taught them, but they aren't able to pick up scrolls and study them for spells either. Creating an entirely new spell would be an expression of their own knowledge and skill separate from the patron and thus would probably be represented in taking Wizard levels, not more Warlock levels.
The only arcane caster class I could see creating new and unique spells is Bard. Their whole class revolves around creativity and their magic is done in the form of art or song. Creating a new song with new effects seems like it'd be loaded in flavor for them, but it might be a bit much given they're able to "steal" spells from other classes already. Bards also learn magic through study via their bard colleges. They just understand and express magic through the music of creation.
I guess. But I disagree and see why all of those classes would be inventing spells just as often as the wizard.
Sorcerers are the inherent manipulators of magic. Why wizards? Because that's what you main?
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
Huh? what are you talking about? Fighter subclasses make hardly any difference, the choice that makes a significant difference is Dex vs Str. While Warlock the only choice that really changes how they play is EB vs Bladelock otherwise they are all basically the same too. Monk is the only class where subclass choice completely changes how you play them.
Note that Modify Spell and Create Spell didn't really create new spells with new effects, they just buffed existing spells until they were totally broken. They aren't going to create a true spell creation system where spell mechanics are broken down into a "point cost" and each spell level is granted a point budget that can be used to purchase effects from the spell mechanic table. Because that would be extremely complicated for new players (far far more complex than Druid Wildshape and they already want to simplify that mechanic b/c they believe it turns off players).
About the Wizards, what they lack, is some how to modify their spells. Fireball is always Fireball. If your enemy has resistance to your prepared spells, you just sit and watch. That's why metamagic feats is so strong and cool and they should be !!!!
Modify Spell is needed just to give us some options to to play with.
There's far larger issues than fire resistance or immunity if all you happen to have is fireball and your sitting twiddling your fingers... that's not a need for a class feature to circumnavigate an 'issue' that's bad player choices.. Just saying that if at level 5 with a minimum of 14 spells in your spell book and if all you got is fireball.. well
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
They aren't going to create a true spell creation system where spell mechanics are broken down into a "point cost" and each spell level is granted a point budget that can be used to purchase effects from the spell mechanic table.
Points. For sorcery? And we could call them sorcery points maybe and they could be assigned to a class that is all about manipulating the raw magical energies.
Kinda like my comment about a build your own burrito menu a few comments back that got a "we're not talking about sorcerers!!!" Complaint???
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
They aren't going to create a true spell creation system where spell mechanics are broken down into a "point cost" and each spell level is granted a point budget that can be used to purchase effects from the spell mechanic table.
Points. For sorcery? And we could call them sorcery points maybe and they could be assigned to a class that is all about manipulating the raw magical energies.
Kinda like my comment about a build your own burrito menu a few comments back that got a "we're not talking about sorcerers!!!" Complaint???
Please... continue....
Sorcery points you use on the fly. I'm talking about basically a crafting system for spells so during downtime you pay X amount of gold to craft a new spell. Let's say it is a 3rd level spell so you get 5 spell power points that you can spend based on the table below:
1 spell power point = 2d6 damage from fire (Dex), cold (Con), lightning (Dex), poison (Con), or thunder (Con) 1 spell power point = 1d8 damage from piercing, slashing, bludgeoning (Str or Dex), radiant (Wis) or necrotic (Con) 1 spell power point = 2d4 acid (Dex) damage 1 spell power point = 10ft radius sphere (spending 1 additional point = increase radius by 10 ft) 1 spell power point = 50ft x 5ft line or 25 ft x 10 ft line (spending 1 additional point = increase length by 50 ft or 25 ft) 4 spell power point = incapacitation 1 spell power point = prone (requires Dex save) 1 spell power point = restrained (requires Str save) 2 spell power points = poisoned (any damage must be poison) 1 spell power point = Duration 1 minute (concentration) 2 spell power points = Duration 10 minutes (concentration) 3 spell power points = Duration 1 minute (no concentration) ....
.....
etc....
It is definitely possible to do, and I might even write it up to put on DMsGuild later, but it is a ton of complication that will just discourage newbies.
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
They aren't going to create a true spell creation system where spell mechanics are broken down into a "point cost" and each spell level is granted a point budget that can be used to purchase effects from the spell mechanic table.
Points. For sorcery? And we could call them sorcery points maybe and they could be assigned to a class that is all about manipulating the raw magical energies.
Kinda like my comment about a build your own burrito menu a few comments back that got a "we're not talking about sorcerers!!!" Complaint???
Please... continue....
Sorcery points you use on the fly. I'm talking about basically a crafting system for spells so during downtime you pay X amount of gold to craft a new spell. Let's say it is a 3rd level spell so you get 5 spell power points that you can spend based on the table below:
1 spell power point = 2d6 damage from fire (Dex), cold (Con), lightning (Dex), poison (Con), or thunder (Con) 1 spell power point = 1d8 damage from piercing, slashing, bludgeoning (Str or Dex), radiant (Wis) or necrotic (Con) 1 spell power point = 2d4 acid (Dex) damage 1 spell power point = 10ft radius sphere (spending 1 additional point = increase radius by 10 ft) 1 spell power point = 50ft x 5ft line or 25 ft x 10 ft line (spending 1 additional point = increase length by 50 ft or 25 ft) 4 spell power point = incapacitation 1 spell power point = prone (requires Dex save) 1 spell power point = restrained (requires Str save) 2 spell power points = poisoned (any damage must be poison) 1 spell power point = Duration 1 minute (concentration) 2 spell power points = Duration 10 minutes (concentration) 3 spell power points = Duration 1 minute (no concentration) ....
.....
etc....
It is definitely possible to do, and I might even write it up to put on DMsGuild later, but it is a ton of complication that will just discourage newbies.
Nah... I think the only differentiation from yours and mine is that I do want it to be spells on the fly that you can create and just have a metric crapload of points, or just have some stuff as freebies and included in the point cost... Maybe the player keeps a cheat sheet of some of their favorite combos....
Anyhow, creat and modify spells doesn't feel wizard. It feels sorcerer. And arguably artificer. Wizards are history nerds and librarians. Sorcerers are the gifted and talented students goofing off in the science lab who make an atomic bomb without realizing it.
The artificer is the grease monkey mechanic that if you give them five minutes and a bunch of random items, they can construct just about anything.
I mean that's WHY those sorcerer points are spent to manipulate spells and WHY artificers are so DM dependent as a class....
Counterpoint, Creating a Spell (if it should be allowed at all) shouldn't be a thing only Wizards can do. It should instead be a potential downtime activity in a similar vein to crafting magic items. Restricting it to a "Wizards only" class feature gate-keeps out other character concepts of non-wizards who might just happen to like experimenting and investigating into the inner workings of magic and spell-craft. Just because its something commonly thematic to wizards doesn't mean it should be a mechanic only accessible to Wizards.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The reason it fits Wizard so well thematically is because Wizard is the scholarly academic caster choice. They're the ones who dedicated years of their lives to studying magic as a science. They learned the underpinning mathematics of how spells work and therefore have the knowledge base to read a scroll and understand how a spell is cast. The next logical step is to be able to apply their knowledge of magic to the creation of new spells.
Sorcerers don't have that academic background of learning. That is why they can't pick up a scroll and study it to learn how to cast a new spell (without levels in Wizard). They can use their intuition and innate connection to magic to alter spells on the fly, but they shouldn't be able to craft a new, unique spell that can be taught to other casters.
Warlocks, on the other hand, learn their magic directly from a patron. Therefore they know the spells their patron taught them, but they aren't able to pick up scrolls and study them for spells either. Creating an entirely new spell would be an expression of their own knowledge and skill separate from the patron and thus would probably be represented in taking Wizard levels, not more Warlock levels.
The only arcane caster class I could see creating new and unique spells is Bard. Their whole class revolves around creativity and their magic is done in the form of art or song. Creating a new song with new effects seems like it'd be loaded in flavor for them, but it might be a bit much given they're able to "steal" spells from other classes already. Bards also learn magic through study via their bard colleges. They just understand and express magic through the music of creation.
See? This is what I mean. You're already limiting the concept. Think wider. It fits all spellcasters, just not exactly the same way.
It definitely fits the wizard in a direct expression of the concept. No arguments here.
It fits Sorcerers in the sense that their magic is inherent to their very being therefore it would stand to reason that it might be uniquely expressed in the form of spells that no one else has yet invented.
It fits Bards in the sense you mentioned but also in the sense that Bards go about scouring the world for lost secrets and lore. A created spell for them might be unearthing an ancient secret lost to time. Or about applying knowledge from multiple casting disciplines, in theme with spell secrets letting them access from any class list, to come up with something new.
It fits Warlocks as who else is more appropriate to discover and apply forbidden knowledge that no mortal mind has previously ever known? This knowledge could be bestowed to them but still express itself in a unique spell not yet invented.
It fits Clerics and Paladins as having found favor with their Deity they are granted a unique gift in the form of a spell tailored specifically for them.
It fits Druids and Rangers in the sense that nature is alive and constantly evolving and adapting. Why would the spirits of nature or the powers they grant be more stagnant than nature itself?
I'd argue it fits Artificers in a direct sense just as well as Wizards, but additionally in the sense that Artificers are already highly encouraged by the rules to theme their spells around the tools which they use, the Tools Required feature very specifically grants them no significant differences in their spells (aside from adding an M component). Being able to Modify spells (as a new invention) would grant them the capability to add mechanics that reinforce the theme of their reflavoring.
This is why I strongly feel the mechanics of spell creation (if any player should have them) should be accessible to any player class that can cast a spell. There's 1000 different ways to flavor this stuff and I'd expect such mechanics to be just as flavor agnostic as the magic item crafting rules currently are.
About the Wizards, what they lack, is some how to modify their spells. Fireball is always Fireball. If your enemy has resistance to your prepared spells, you just sit and watch. That's why metamagic feats is so strong and cool and they should be !!!!
Modify Spell is needed just to give us some options to to play with.
There's far larger issues than fire resistance or immunity if all you happen to have is fireball and your sitting twiddling your fingers... that's not a need for a class feature to circumnavigate an 'issue' that's bad player choices.. Just saying that if at level 5 with a minimum of 14 spells in your spell book and if all you got is fireball.. well
Its was an example ... "Who said that you only have fireball? You just creating a specific scenario to justify your opinion. What's your argument ? You have spells so you don't need to change elements?
And if you don't prepared? What do you do? Sit and Watch? What's your idea to improve and make Wizards more fun?
Using arcane formulas in your Spellbook, you magically alter only one Arcane spell you have prepared per Long Rest. You make one of the following modifications to the spell:
Resilient Spell. If the spell requires Concentration, damage can’t break your Concentration on the spell.
Elemental Spell. If the spell has a damage type, it overcomes any resistance. Immunities still applies.
Mind Breaker Spell. The Saving Throw to resist the spells changes its to INT.
Powerfull Spell. If the spell has a damage dice. You can reroll every 1 and uses the new value.
Shapening Spell. If the spell has an area of effect radius, it changes to 10-foot-radius sphere.
You can only alter one Spell per Long Rest. This altered version of the spell can’t be added to a spellbook or Spell Scroll.
Improved Modify Spell
Ability level 11 Wizard
You can use 2 modifications to one spell or 1 modification to two spells.
Using arcane formulas in your Spellbook, you magically alter only one Arcane spell you have prepared per Long Rest. You make one of the following modifications to the spell:
Resilient Spell. If the spell requires Concentration, damage can’t break your Concentration on the spell.
Elemental Spell. If the spell has a damage type, it overcomes any resistance. Immunities still applies.
Mind Breaker Spell. The Saving Throw to resist the spells changes its to INT.
Powerfull Spell. If the spell has a damage dice. You can reroll every 1 and uses the new value.
Shapening Spell. If the spell has an area of effect radius, it changes to 10-foot-radius sphere.
You can only alter one Spell per Long Rest. This altered version of the spell can’t be added to a spellbook or Spell Scroll.
Improved Modify Spell
Ability level 11 Wizard
You can use 2 modifications to one spell or 1 modification to two spells.
It's a FANTASTIC steal of the sorcerer's abilities model. And you can affect 2 spells and don't give up any spell slot/converted sorcery points...
I feel like they screwed the pooch with this class.
We could have had a Chipotle "create your own burrito" approach to the class's spells (with costs for extras) and I seriously feel like the wild magic table should have been for when you try to tap into the weave that you're naturally a part of when your slots are all tapped out.
Instead it's a wizard with a little bit of reflavor.
So, the WIZARD thread. if you're talking about sorcerers, please go to another thread. Yes, no sorcerer. Wizard.
Will wotc do anything to replace these lost abilities? No other class suffers from the fact that their subclass is virtually meaningless. Necromancer or Abjurationist? They're 99% the same thing anyways. The only difference is a few ribbons. They all play the exact same. Yet all wizards are bland compared to most other classes. Look at warlocks or fighters for example. The choice in subclass makes a huge difference.
You got it dude.
In addition to nerfing counterspell there's still too many "cheat" spells that allow for players to completely bypass difficult encounters. The polymorph spells should be change to state willing targets, full stop and gate/dimension door/etc should reflect the same.
That's the spirit. Good point, we have every school of magic, but almost none is good.
Undos,
1) Never said that. What I meant were : One caster having higher spell DC than all else is a bad design. I'm not trying to nerf the Sorcerer, the topic is about the Wizard.
2) They are very different hehehe . What I'm trying to address here is giving Wizards,, a little of spell manipulation. Elements manipulations alone is needed on higher levels.
3) Exactly , they don't. if you think Action Surge casting 2 spells, that's means you prefer broken stuff. Sorry, that's not fun, that's broken.
4) I agree using 2 META with Sorcerer. you have the points, go use it. But forcing a Wizard a subclass is not ideal from changing elements.
Combat wise, Sorcerer is stronger than Wizards. Wizards also depends on its DM to have gold and scrolls. I think sorcerer should have some rituals for more utility.
What lost abilities, Modify Spell and Create Spell were Playtest material that rightfully died in playtest. Was it fun sure, was it horrible for game balance, absolutely. Also you haven’t really played a bunch of wizards or you wouldn’t say all their subclasses play the same. Wizard subclasses are not all built equally. Necromancer use to be one of the worse but with the new summon undead spell might be okay, but I haven’t played one or ran a game for one since the Tasha’s summon spells have been out. Abjurer is/was way stronger and with the 5e counterspell had some great counter play and the the Ward helps with survivability of you and your party when used correctly. Divination wizard has one of the best abilities in the game in portent. Bladesinger after the Tasha’s rework is just incredible. The thing about spell casters is their spell selections can make them very different. Also you can have two evocation wizards who choose different spells and they would feel like different sub classes. So I’m very confused by a complaint that calls the wizard a bland class.
1) That would be true if it was a permanent thing to their Spell DC, but it’s not. Question: Is reckless attack unfair to all other martial combatants or is the Archery fighting style unfair to all ranged weapon users who can’t take it?
2) High level wizards already manipulate spells. Some do it at low levels as well. Almost every 5e and 5eR evoker ability alters spells, Conjuration Wizards 10th and 14th level ability improves spells, Necromancy while not great alters necromancy spells, and pretty much they all do something with spells. Bladesinger, Divination and transmutation are the only schools that don’t have any features that alter a spell. Technically you can use portent on a spell.
3) Action surge casting 2 spells came at a cost. It’s strong, but I never saw it as broken. Like you said Wizards don’t have infinite spell slots. Also they already decided to patch that Along with Twin Spell and any other ability that let you cast two spells in one turn.
4) Wizards shouldn’t be changing elements of their spells, they should be using a multitude of spells that cover all the elements. My 11th level Wizard with 20 Int could prepare Chromatic orb, Magic Missile, Acid Arrow, Binding Ice, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Blight, Sickening Radiance, Cone of Cold, Dawn and still have 6 more spells to prepare and with the new memorize spell that another changeable prepared spell. Also the number of rituals I could have in my book that I don’t have to prepare. If my GM doesn’t ever give me scrolls to add to my spell book I still know 26 spells and could prepare 16 of them and a 17th with memorize spell.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. The reason it fits Wizard so well thematically is because Wizard is the scholarly academic caster choice. They're the ones who dedicated years of their lives to studying magic as a science. They learned the underpinning mathematics of how spells work and therefore have the knowledge base to read a scroll and understand how a spell is cast. The next logical step is to be able to apply their knowledge of magic to the creation of new spells.
Sorcerers don't have that academic background of learning. That is why they can't pick up a scroll and study it to learn how to cast a new spell (without levels in Wizard). They can use their intuition and innate connection to magic to alter spells on the fly, but they shouldn't be able to craft a new, unique spell that can be taught to other casters.
Warlocks, on the other hand, learn their magic directly from a patron. Therefore they know the spells their patron taught them, but they aren't able to pick up scrolls and study them for spells either. Creating an entirely new spell would be an expression of their own knowledge and skill separate from the patron and thus would probably be represented in taking Wizard levels, not more Warlock levels.
The only arcane caster class I could see creating new and unique spells is Bard. Their whole class revolves around creativity and their magic is done in the form of art or song. Creating a new song with new effects seems like it'd be loaded in flavor for them, but it might be a bit much given they're able to "steal" spells from other classes already. Bards also learn magic through study via their bard colleges. They just understand and express magic through the music of creation.
Well said.
Its really sad that they just discarded Modify Spell and Create Spell.
But I think the dev team is creative and they will come up with a good Modify Spell or an alternative.
I guess. But I disagree and see why all of those classes would be inventing spells just as often as the wizard.
Sorcerers are the inherent manipulators of magic. Why wizards? Because that's what you main?
Huh? what are you talking about? Fighter subclasses make hardly any difference, the choice that makes a significant difference is Dex vs Str. While Warlock the only choice that really changes how they play is EB vs Bladelock otherwise they are all basically the same too. Monk is the only class where subclass choice completely changes how you play them.
Note that Modify Spell and Create Spell didn't really create new spells with new effects, they just buffed existing spells until they were totally broken. They aren't going to create a true spell creation system where spell mechanics are broken down into a "point cost" and each spell level is granted a point budget that can be used to purchase effects from the spell mechanic table. Because that would be extremely complicated for new players (far far more complex than Druid Wildshape and they already want to simplify that mechanic b/c they believe it turns off players).
There's far larger issues than fire resistance or immunity if all you happen to have is fireball and your sitting twiddling your fingers... that's not a need for a class feature to circumnavigate an 'issue' that's bad player choices.. Just saying that if at level 5 with a minimum of 14 spells in your spell book and if all you got is fireball.. well
Points. For sorcery? And we could call them sorcery points maybe and they could be assigned to a class that is all about manipulating the raw magical energies.
Kinda like my comment about a build your own burrito menu a few comments back that got a "we're not talking about sorcerers!!!" Complaint???
Please... continue....
Sorcery points you use on the fly. I'm talking about basically a crafting system for spells so during downtime you pay X amount of gold to craft a new spell. Let's say it is a 3rd level spell so you get 5 spell power points that you can spend based on the table below:
1 spell power point = 2d6 damage from fire (Dex), cold (Con), lightning (Dex), poison (Con), or thunder (Con)
1 spell power point = 1d8 damage from piercing, slashing, bludgeoning (Str or Dex), radiant (Wis) or necrotic (Con)
1 spell power point = 2d4 acid (Dex) damage
1 spell power point = 10ft radius sphere (spending 1 additional point = increase radius by 10 ft)
1 spell power point = 50ft x 5ft line or 25 ft x 10 ft line (spending 1 additional point = increase length by 50 ft or 25 ft)
4 spell power point = incapacitation
1 spell power point = prone (requires Dex save)
1 spell power point = restrained (requires Str save)
2 spell power points = poisoned (any damage must be poison)
1 spell power point = Duration 1 minute (concentration)
2 spell power points = Duration 10 minutes (concentration)
3 spell power points = Duration 1 minute (no concentration)
....
.....
etc....
It is definitely possible to do, and I might even write it up to put on DMsGuild later, but it is a ton of complication that will just discourage newbies.
Nah... I think the only differentiation from yours and mine is that I do want it to be spells on the fly that you can create and just have a metric crapload of points, or just have some stuff as freebies and included in the point cost... Maybe the player keeps a cheat sheet of some of their favorite combos....
Anyhow, creat and modify spells doesn't feel wizard. It feels sorcerer. And arguably artificer. Wizards are history nerds and librarians. Sorcerers are the gifted and talented students goofing off in the science lab who make an atomic bomb without realizing it.
The artificer is the grease monkey mechanic that if you give them five minutes and a bunch of random items, they can construct just about anything.
I mean that's WHY those sorcerer points are spent to manipulate spells and WHY artificers are so DM dependent as a class....
See? This is what I mean. You're already limiting the concept. Think wider. It fits all spellcasters, just not exactly the same way.
It definitely fits the wizard in a direct expression of the concept. No arguments here.
It fits Sorcerers in the sense that their magic is inherent to their very being therefore it would stand to reason that it might be uniquely expressed in the form of spells that no one else has yet invented.
It fits Bards in the sense you mentioned but also in the sense that Bards go about scouring the world for lost secrets and lore. A created spell for them might be unearthing an ancient secret lost to time. Or about applying knowledge from multiple casting disciplines, in theme with spell secrets letting them access from any class list, to come up with something new.
It fits Warlocks as who else is more appropriate to discover and apply forbidden knowledge that no mortal mind has previously ever known? This knowledge could be bestowed to them but still express itself in a unique spell not yet invented.
It fits Clerics and Paladins as having found favor with their Deity they are granted a unique gift in the form of a spell tailored specifically for them.
It fits Druids and Rangers in the sense that nature is alive and constantly evolving and adapting. Why would the spirits of nature or the powers they grant be more stagnant than nature itself?
I'd argue it fits Artificers in a direct sense just as well as Wizards, but additionally in the sense that Artificers are already highly encouraged by the rules to theme their spells around the tools which they use, the Tools Required feature very specifically grants them no significant differences in their spells (aside from adding an M component). Being able to Modify spells (as a new invention) would grant them the capability to add mechanics that reinforce the theme of their reflavoring.
This is why I strongly feel the mechanics of spell creation (if any player should have them) should be accessible to any player class that can cast a spell. There's 1000 different ways to flavor this stuff and I'd expect such mechanics to be just as flavor agnostic as the magic item crafting rules currently are.
Its was an example ... "Who said that you only have fireball? You just creating a specific scenario to justify your opinion. What's your argument ? You have spells so you don't need to change elements?
And if you don't prepared? What do you do? Sit and Watch? What's your idea to improve and make Wizards more fun?
What your guys think:
Modify Spell
Ability level 7 Wizard
Using arcane formulas in your Spellbook, you magically alter only one Arcane spell you have prepared per Long Rest. You make one of the following modifications to the spell:
Resilient Spell. If the spell requires Concentration, damage can’t break your Concentration on the spell.
Elemental Spell. If the spell has a damage type, it overcomes any resistance. Immunities still applies.
Mind Breaker Spell. The Saving Throw to resist the spells changes its to INT.
Powerfull Spell. If the spell has a damage dice. You can reroll every 1 and uses the new value.
Shapening Spell. If the spell has an area of effect radius, it changes to 10-foot-radius sphere.
You can only alter one Spell per Long Rest. This altered version of the spell can’t be added to a spellbook or Spell Scroll.
Improved Modify Spell
Ability level 11 Wizard
You can use 2 modifications to one spell or 1 modification to two spells.
It's a FANTASTIC steal of the sorcerer's abilities model. And you can affect 2 spells and don't give up any spell slot/converted sorcery points...
lol No one is stealing nothing. Bob, here is the argument:
1) Its one modification per day.
2) You need to prepare in advance. Its not on the fly.
3) You are a Wizard, you can create and learn spell. So you can modify it by playing with the weave.
And finally, if you want sorcery points gets a level 4 feat:
Metamagic Adept
Thats not the point here.