My group and I decided to put the playtest Hide rules through their paces in a live game today. I've been a DM for 33 years, running 1-3 games a week and playing in 1-2 games a week pretty much the entire time. I've played every version of D&D, and experienced the different iterations of sneaking around. I've also played numerous other TTRPGs in that time.
These current rules are absurdly ridiculous as written (page 49-50 for Hide, and 51 for Invisible [Condition]). We tried to be true to the written language, even though it made no sense. Here's how it went.
One of the PCs was following another PC. The new rules state that in order to Hide, you need to succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 or Total Cover--and you must be out of any visible enemy's line of sight. The other PC wasn't an enemy, so the player walked up to a nearby boulder and stood beside it, granting cover against anything on the other side. The other PC could still see him, but the Hide rules have no provision for an ally seeing you. The PC rolled a 12, a failure. Now, despite the name of the action "Hide", nowhere does it state that a successful check makes you undetected by another creature. What it does is grant you Invisibility. You aren't really making a Hide check against another creature, you are instead making a check to turn Invisible.
So, the PC tried over and over until it succeeded with a 20. They became invisible. Poof, vanished from sight. The other PC was watching them and they just disappeared. Except...maybe they didn't.
The Invisible condition makes it so you aren't affected by anything that requires sight, like a spell. It also gives you advantage on Initiative rolls. Finally, you have advantage on attacks and creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you unless they can somehow see you. One thing it does not say, anywhere, is that you cannot be seen. Now, yes, the name of the condition is "Invisible" so we can infer that you can't be seen, but it doesn't say that. Possibly RAW you remain visible but have the invisible condition, oddly enough.
We determined the PC was unseen. Then the PC could freely walk out in the open in broad daylight, completely invisible--the condition ONLY ends if you attack, cast a spell with a verbal component, an enemy finds you, or you make a sound louder than a whisper. The PC's Hide roll was a 20, and none of the other PCs had passive perceptions that high. Meaning they would have to take the Search action until they got a 20 in order for the condition to end.
At a later point the whole party got behind a rock, held hands, and turned invisible. They couldn't see each other anymore but they were still holding hands. They would whisper to each other, which was perfectly fine since it didn't break the Hide/end Invisibility. They walked down the middle of wide empty hallways, completely unseen, talking to each other in whispers.
We had our fun and saw first-hand the utter impracticality of the new Hide and Invisible rules. Next game session we are reverting to the 2014 hide rules.
My group and I decided to put the playtest Hide rules through their paces in a live game today. I've been a DM for 33 years, running 1-3 games a week and playing in 1-2 games a week pretty much the entire time. I've played every version of D&D, and experienced the different iterations of sneaking around. I've also played numerous other TTRPGs in that time.
These current rules are absurdly ridiculous as written (page 49-50 for Hide, and 51 for Invisible [Condition]). We tried to be true to the written language, even though it made no sense. Here's how it went.
One of the PCs was following another PC. The new rules state that in order to Hide, you need to succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 or Total Cover--and you must be out of any visible enemy's line of sight. The other PC wasn't an enemy, so the player walked up to a nearby boulder and stood beside it, granting cover against anything on the other side. The other PC could still see him, but the Hide rules have no provision for an ally seeing you. The PC rolled a 12, a failure. Now, despite the name of the action "Hide", nowhere does it state that a successful check makes you undetected by another creature. What it does is grant you Invisibility. You aren't really making a Hide check against another creature, you are instead making a check to turn Invisible.
So, the PC tried over and over until it succeeded with a 20. They became invisible. Poof, vanished from sight. The other PC was watching them and they just disappeared. Except...maybe they didn't.
The Invisible condition makes it so you aren't affected by anything that requires sight, like a spell. It also gives you advantage on Initiative rolls. Finally, you have advantage on attacks and creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you unless they can somehow see you. One thing it does not say, anywhere, is that you cannot be seen. Now, yes, the name of the condition is "Invisible" so we can infer that you can't be seen, but it doesn't say that. Possibly RAW you remain visible but have the invisible condition, oddly enough.
We determined the PC was unseen. Then the PC could freely walk out in the open in broad daylight, completely invisible--the condition ONLY ends if you attack, cast a spell with a verbal component, an enemy finds you, or you make a sound louder than a whisper. The PC's Hide roll was a 20, and none of the other PCs had passive perceptions that high. Meaning they would have to take the Search action until they got a 20 in order for the condition to end.
At a later point the whole party got behind a rock, held hands, and turned invisible. They couldn't see each other anymore but they were still holding hands. They would whisper to each other, which was perfectly fine since it didn't break the Hide/end Invisibility. They walked down the middle of wide empty hallways, completely unseen, talking to each other in whispers.
We had our fun and saw first-hand the utter impracticality of the new Hide and Invisible rules. Next game session we are reverting to the 2014 hide rules.
Hide says the condition ends if the enemy finds you. That would imply that you aren’t actually “invisible” the way we use the word or rather once you are in light of sight of an enemy you are no longer invisible to them. It’s still an awkward way to use the invisible condition. They should just have a separate hidden condition. That would make more sense and wouldn’t have weird language problems.
I was also going to add in you are confusing the invisible condition with the invisibility spell. The invisible condition does not specify what ends it. "The enemy finds you" pretty much means your search action example or if there is nothing preventing them from seeing the party anymore.
I would really love them to just add a hidden condition. It would just make more sense.
Hide says the condition ends if the enemy finds you. That would imply that you aren’t actually “invisible” the way we use the word or rather once you are in light of sight of an enemy you are no longer invisible to them. It’s still an awkward way to use the invisible condition. They should just have a separate hidden condition. That would make more sense and wouldn’t have weird language problems.
The Hide description describes what is needed to be found - a successful perception check that meets or beats the DC set. Based on what I am reading, with the invisible condition, you could stand right in front of someone and unless they meet that perception check, they cannot find you.
You would need to beat their passive perception as well then. Which is technically fine. The invisible condition does not state it makes you actually invisible.
I was also going to add in you are confusing the invisible condition with the invisibility spell. The invisible condition does not specify what ends it. "The enemy finds you" pretty much means your search action example or if there is nothing preventing them from seeing the party anymore.
I would really love them to just add a hidden condition. It would just make more sense.
You might already be aware, but they had one earlier in the playtest.
UA Playtest 2: "Expert Classes" introduced a Hidden condition as well as the majority of the new Hide Action rules. UA Playtest 4: "Druid & Paladin" removed the Hidden condition assigning Invisibility as part of the Hide Action instead.
I don't think they ever explained why they removed Hidden, but I guess they thought it was too redundant?
I was also going to add in you are confusing the invisible condition with the invisibility spell. The invisible condition does not specify what ends it. "The enemy finds you" pretty much means your search action example or if there is nothing preventing them from seeing the party anymore.
I would really love them to just add a hidden condition. It would just make more sense.
You might already be aware, but they had one earlier in the playtest.
UA Playtest 2: "Expert Classes" introduced a Hidden condition as well as the majority of the new Hide Action rules. UA Playtest 4: "Druid & Paladin" removed the Hidden condition assigning Invisibility as part of the Hide Action instead.
I don't think they ever explained why they removed Hidden, but I guess they thought it was too redundant?
While the two conditions had some overlap they were very much two separate things. Much like Grappled and Restrained are similar, but different. The UA2 version of invisible actually meant you were unseeable, but the UA7 version doesn’t.
UA 2 INVISIBLE [CONDITION] While you are Invisible, you experience the following effects: Unseeable. You can’t be seen, so you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying also can’t be seen. Surprise. If you are Invisible when you roll initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. Attacks Affected. Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your Attack Rolls have Advantage.
UA2 HIDDEN [CONDITION] While you are Hidden, you experience the following effects: Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen Surprise. If you are Hidden when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. Attacks Affected. Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your Attack Rolls have Advantage. Ending the Condition. The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover.
UA7 INVISIBLE [CONDITION] While Invisible, you experience the following effects: Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen. Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll. Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, as with magic or Blindsight, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
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My group and I decided to put the playtest Hide rules through their paces in a live game today. I've been a DM for 33 years, running 1-3 games a week and playing in 1-2 games a week pretty much the entire time. I've played every version of D&D, and experienced the different iterations of sneaking around. I've also played numerous other TTRPGs in that time.
These current rules are absurdly ridiculous as written (page 49-50 for Hide, and 51 for Invisible [Condition]). We tried to be true to the written language, even though it made no sense. Here's how it went.
One of the PCs was following another PC. The new rules state that in order to Hide, you need to succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 or Total Cover--and you must be out of any visible enemy's line of sight. The other PC wasn't an enemy, so the player walked up to a nearby boulder and stood beside it, granting cover against anything on the other side. The other PC could still see him, but the Hide rules have no provision for an ally seeing you. The PC rolled a 12, a failure. Now, despite the name of the action "Hide", nowhere does it state that a successful check makes you undetected by another creature. What it does is grant you Invisibility. You aren't really making a Hide check against another creature, you are instead making a check to turn Invisible.
So, the PC tried over and over until it succeeded with a 20. They became invisible. Poof, vanished from sight. The other PC was watching them and they just disappeared. Except...maybe they didn't.
The Invisible condition makes it so you aren't affected by anything that requires sight, like a spell. It also gives you advantage on Initiative rolls. Finally, you have advantage on attacks and creatures have disadvantage on attacks against you unless they can somehow see you. One thing it does not say, anywhere, is that you cannot be seen. Now, yes, the name of the condition is "Invisible" so we can infer that you can't be seen, but it doesn't say that. Possibly RAW you remain visible but have the invisible condition, oddly enough.
We determined the PC was unseen. Then the PC could freely walk out in the open in broad daylight, completely invisible--the condition ONLY ends if you attack, cast a spell with a verbal component, an enemy finds you, or you make a sound louder than a whisper. The PC's Hide roll was a 20, and none of the other PCs had passive perceptions that high. Meaning they would have to take the Search action until they got a 20 in order for the condition to end.
At a later point the whole party got behind a rock, held hands, and turned invisible. They couldn't see each other anymore but they were still holding hands. They would whisper to each other, which was perfectly fine since it didn't break the Hide/end Invisibility. They walked down the middle of wide empty hallways, completely unseen, talking to each other in whispers.
We had our fun and saw first-hand the utter impracticality of the new Hide and Invisible rules. Next game session we are reverting to the 2014 hide rules.
Hide says the condition ends if the enemy finds you. That would imply that you aren’t actually “invisible” the way we use the word or rather once you are in light of sight of an enemy you are no longer invisible to them. It’s still an awkward way to use the invisible condition. They should just have a separate hidden condition. That would make more sense and wouldn’t have weird language problems.
I was also going to add in you are confusing the invisible condition with the invisibility spell. The invisible condition does not specify what ends it. "The enemy finds you" pretty much means your search action example or if there is nothing preventing them from seeing the party anymore.
I would really love them to just add a hidden condition. It would just make more sense.
You would need to beat their passive perception as well then. Which is technically fine. The invisible condition does not state it makes you actually invisible.
You might already be aware, but they had one earlier in the playtest.
UA Playtest 2: "Expert Classes" introduced a Hidden condition as well as the majority of the new Hide Action rules.
UA Playtest 4: "Druid & Paladin" removed the Hidden condition assigning Invisibility as part of the Hide Action instead.
I don't think they ever explained why they removed Hidden, but I guess they thought it was too redundant?
While the two conditions had some overlap they were very much two separate things. Much like Grappled and Restrained are similar, but different. The UA2 version of invisible actually meant you were unseeable, but the UA7 version doesn’t.
UA 2 INVISIBLE [CONDITION]
While you are Invisible, you experience the following effects:
Unseeable. You can’t be seen, so you aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying also can’t be seen.
Surprise. If you are Invisible when you roll initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Attacks Affected. Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your Attack Rolls have Advantage.
UA2 HIDDEN [CONDITION]
While you are Hidden, you experience the following effects:
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen
Surprise. If you are Hidden when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Attacks Affected. Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your Attack Rolls have Advantage.
Ending the Condition. The Condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurrences: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an Attack Roll, you cast a Spell with a verbal component, or you aren’t Heavily Obscured or behind any Cover.
UA7 INVISIBLE [CONDITION]
While Invisible, you experience the following effects:
Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen.
Surprise. If you’re Invisible when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.
Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, as with magic or Blindsight, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.