Personally I would think it will be maintained, but perhaps it will be delayed (Also for the Cleric) to level 2 or 3 to reduce the temptation of possible single level 1 dips just for those proficiencies.
I don't believe they'll do this at all. They seem to want style online at level 1, balance be damned.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Personally I would think it will be maintained, but perhaps it will be delayed (Also for the Cleric) to level 2 or 3 to reduce the temptation of possible single level 1 dips just for those proficiencies.
I don't believe they'll do this at all. They seem to want style online at level 1, balance be damned.
You can already get the medium armor and shield from a 1 level dip in either class right now and with Domains currently being at level 1 you could grab martials and heavy armor with the right pick as well. How often have you seen anyone recommend this for a multiclass dip?
Personally I would think it will be maintained, but perhaps it will be delayed (Also for the Cleric) to level 2 or 3 to reduce the temptation of possible single level 1 dips just for those proficiencies.
I don't believe they'll do this at all. They seem to want style online at level 1, balance be damned.
You can already get the medium armor and shield from a 1 level dip in either class right now and with Domains currently being at level 1 you could grab martials and heavy armor with the right pick as well. How often have you seen anyone recommend this for a multiclass dip?
You can also get Light and Medium armour and Shield training with the Level 1 Lightly Armoured feat.
I don’t see a Warden druid becoming a dominant martial combatant. I see the Warden option as just preventing the druid (esp at L1) from being pulverized in melee combat. But now the druid could multiclass with fighter and become pretty powerful
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Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
I don’t see a Warden druid becoming a dominant martial combatant. I see the Warden option as just preventing the druid (esp at L1) from being pulverized in melee combat. But now the druid could multiclass with fighter and become pretty powerful
If a druid were going to MC with fighter, there's no reason to go Warden. You literally get everything that warden gives you (medium armor and martial weapons) from the fighter dip. Magician is flat out better since you get /something/ out of it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I don’t see a Warden druid becoming a dominant martial combatant. I see the Warden option as just preventing the druid (esp at L1) from being pulverized in melee combat. But now the druid could multiclass with fighter and become pretty powerful
How?
Allowing druids to use martial weapons would get them the following at the related Fighter levels:
Level 1: a fighting style (with bonuses in melee combat), Second Wind, and 2 Skills
Level 2: Action Surge (1 extra attack every short rest)
Level 3: a Martial Archetype
A couple levels of Barbarian would also make a druid with martial weapons pretty powerful.
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Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
If a druid were going to MC with fighter, there's no reason to go Warden. You literally get everything that warden gives you (medium armor and martial weapons) from the fighter dip. Magician is flat out better since you get /something/ out of it.
a Druid would have to go warden if they wanted to use Martial weapons, right?
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Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
I don’t see a Warden druid becoming a dominant martial combatant. I see the Warden option as just preventing the druid (esp at L1) from being pulverized in melee combat. But now the druid could multiclass with fighter and become pretty powerful
How?
Allowing druids to use martial weapons would get them the following at the related Fighter levels:
Level 1: a fighting style (with bonuses in melee combat), Second Wind, and 2 Skills
Level 2: Action Surge (1 extra attack every short rest)
Level 3: a Martial Archetype
A couple levels of Barbarian would also make a druid with martial weapons pretty powerful.
You don't get skills on a multiclass unless you dipped into a class that starts with more than two, so there's no way a Druid/Fighter hybrid gets more that way. A Fighting Style is nice but might also be gained without taking a level dip and delaying class progression (last I saw they were still restricting FS Feats to classes with the feature, but I personally think there's no need for the restriction). Second Wind also scales off of Fighter level, so while technically beneficial it's hardly game changing as a dip feature. Action Surge has some clout, but this is nothing that doesn't already exist in 5e and is not considered a common reason for a dip. By 3rd level you're seriously spreading your levels out unless this is a tier 3+ build, and you've put your spell progression at least one and possibly two levels behind as a Druid, which most people would say more than offsets being able to make one slightly above baseline weapon attack per turn.
Honestly if I wanted martial add ons for a Druid I'd stick with Ranger. Better spellcasting, Ranger DOES add skills, and you still get a fighting style at 2. It just synergizes a whole lot better.
But you go Warden rather than Magician for one important feature - the bonus weapon damage. If you aren't taking advantage of that, then why didn't you stick with a pure Druid?
If a druid were going to MC with fighter, there's no reason to go Warden. You literally get everything that warden gives you (medium armor and martial weapons) from the fighter dip. Magician is flat out better since you get /something/ out of it.
a Druid would have to go warden if they wanted to use Martial weapons, right?
Why? They'd get martial weapons from fighter.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Honestly if I wanted martial add ons for a Druid I'd stick with Ranger. Better spellcasting, Ranger DOES add skills, and you still get a fighting style at 2. It just synergizes a whole lot better.
But you go Warden rather than Magician for one important feature - the bonus weapon damage. If you aren't taking advantage of that, then why didn't you stick with a pure Druid?
What bonus damage? The text from playtest 8 reads:
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
You get all of that from the fighter/ranger dip. if you're MCing into a martial, magician is flat out better because you get NOTHING from warden, at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Honestly if I wanted martial add ons for a Druid I'd stick with Ranger. Better spellcasting, Ranger DOES add skills, and you still get a fighting style at 2. It just synergizes a whole lot better.
But you go Warden rather than Magician for one important feature - the bonus weapon damage. If you aren't taking advantage of that, then why didn't you stick with a pure Druid?
What bonus damage? The text from playtest 8 reads:
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
You get all of that from the fighter/ranger dip. if you're MCing into a martial, magician is flat out better because you get NOTHING from warden, at all.
Is there some confusion with the level 7 Elemental Fury Druid feature? It resembles the Primal Order feature, with one option favouring melee and the other spellcasting, but is entirely independent of Primal Order. Primal Strikes seem the obvious one to choose if you took Warden as your Primal Order, but you can also choose it if you took Magician.
Could be. I hadn't considered that might cause confusion.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Honestly if I wanted martial add ons for a Druid I'd stick with Ranger. Better spellcasting, Ranger DOES add skills, and you still get a fighting style at 2. It just synergizes a whole lot better.
But you go Warden rather than Magician for one important feature - the bonus weapon damage. If you aren't taking advantage of that, then why didn't you stick with a pure Druid?
What bonus damage? The text from playtest 8 reads:
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
You get all of that from the fighter/ranger dip. if you're MCing into a martial, magician is flat out better because you get NOTHING from warden, at all.
Is there some confusion with the level 7 Elemental Fury Druid feature? It resembles the Primal Order feature, with one option favouring melee and the other spellcasting, but is entirely independent of Primal Order. Primal Strikes seem the obvious one to choose if you took Warden as your Primal Order, but you can also choose it if you took Magician.
You're right, I was thinking that the level 7 feature was linked to what was chosen at level 1.
Honestly if I wanted martial add ons for a Druid I'd stick with Ranger. Better spellcasting, Ranger DOES add skills, and you still get a fighting style at 2. It just synergizes a whole lot better.
But you go Warden rather than Magician for one important feature - the bonus weapon damage. If you aren't taking advantage of that, then why didn't you stick with a pure Druid?
What bonus damage? The text from playtest 8 reads:
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
You get all of that from the fighter/ranger dip. if you're MCing into a martial, magician is flat out better because you get NOTHING from warden, at all.
Is there some confusion with the level 7 Elemental Fury Druid feature? It resembles the Primal Order feature, with one option favouring melee and the other spellcasting, but is entirely independent of Primal Order. Primal Strikes seem the obvious one to choose if you took Warden as your Primal Order, but you can also choose it if you took Magician.
You're right, I was thinking that the level 7 feature was linked to what was chosen at level 1.
Easily done. The level 7 choice does link to the options at level 15 (Improved Elemental Fury), though.
I was under the impression that the restrictions of the druid (i.e., no metal armor, no martial weapons for the Magician Primal Order, etc.) still applied in MC. So a Magician Druid-Fighter MC couldn't use martial weapons. But based on the fact that I'm new to 5e and your response, it sounds like I'm wrong about this. I don't see anything that specifically addresses this issue, MC class-restrictions, in the section on multiclassing.
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Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Pretty sure “no metal armor” is dead in the update; it wasn’t well articulated or thought out in the 2014 version as it was. And there was never a formal restriction on weapons, aside from the simple lack of most profs (and notably they got sickles and scimitars as options in 2014).
The cleaned up the wording on it. Now, you get light armor and simple weapons out of the box. Medium armor and martial weapons if you spec into warden. Here's the applicable text, with no restrictions on metal armor. This way is much better and straight forward imo and no room for any confusion or arguments. It's black and white, as a rule should be.
CREATING A DRUID To create a Druid, consult the following lists, which provide Hit Points, proficiencies, and armor training. If you’re making a level 1 character, also consult the “Starting Equipment” section, and if you’re using the multiclassing rules, see the “Multiclassing and the Druid” sidebar. Then look at the Druid table to see the class features you get at each level in this class. The descriptions of those features appear in the “Druid Class Features” section.
HIT POINTS Hit Dice: 1d8 per Druid level Hit Points at Level 1: 8 plus your Constitution modifier Hit Points per Later Level: 1d8 (or 5) plus your Constitution modifier
Armor Training. When you gain your first Druid level, you gain armor training with the following: Light Armor and Shields.
LEVEL 1: PRIMAL ORDER You have dedicated yourself to one of the following sacred roles of your choice:
Magician. You know one extra cantrip from the Druid spell list (see your Spellcasting feature for information on preparing spells). In addition, your mystical connection to nature gives you a bonus to your Intelligence (Nature) checks. The bonus equals your Wisdom modifier (minimum of +1).
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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I don't believe they'll do this at all. They seem to want style online at level 1, balance be damned.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You can already get the medium armor and shield from a 1 level dip in either class right now and with Domains currently being at level 1 you could grab martials and heavy armor with the right pick as well. How often have you seen anyone recommend this for a multiclass dip?
You can also get Light and Medium armour and Shield training with the Level 1 Lightly Armoured feat.
I don’t see a Warden druid becoming a dominant martial combatant. I see the Warden option as just preventing the druid (esp at L1) from being pulverized in melee combat. But now the druid could multiclass with fighter and become pretty powerful
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
How?
If a druid were going to MC with fighter, there's no reason to go Warden. You literally get everything that warden gives you (medium armor and martial weapons) from the fighter dip. Magician is flat out better since you get /something/ out of it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Allowing druids to use martial weapons would get them the following at the related Fighter levels:
A couple levels of Barbarian would also make a druid with martial weapons pretty powerful.
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
a Druid would have to go warden if they wanted to use Martial weapons, right?
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
You don't get skills on a multiclass unless you dipped into a class that starts with more than two, so there's no way a Druid/Fighter hybrid gets more that way. A Fighting Style is nice but might also be gained without taking a level dip and delaying class progression (last I saw they were still restricting FS Feats to classes with the feature, but I personally think there's no need for the restriction). Second Wind also scales off of Fighter level, so while technically beneficial it's hardly game changing as a dip feature. Action Surge has some clout, but this is nothing that doesn't already exist in 5e and is not considered a common reason for a dip. By 3rd level you're seriously spreading your levels out unless this is a tier 3+ build, and you've put your spell progression at least one and possibly two levels behind as a Druid, which most people would say more than offsets being able to make one slightly above baseline weapon attack per turn.
Honestly if I wanted martial add ons for a Druid I'd stick with Ranger. Better spellcasting, Ranger DOES add skills, and you still get a fighting style at 2. It just synergizes a whole lot better.
But you go Warden rather than Magician for one important feature - the bonus weapon damage. If you aren't taking advantage of that, then why didn't you stick with a pure Druid?
Why? They'd get martial weapons from fighter.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
What bonus damage? The text from playtest 8 reads:
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
You get all of that from the fighter/ranger dip. if you're MCing into a martial, magician is flat out better because you get NOTHING from warden, at all.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Is there some confusion with the level 7 Elemental Fury Druid feature? It resembles the Primal Order feature, with one option favouring melee and the other spellcasting, but is entirely independent of Primal Order. Primal Strikes seem the obvious one to choose if you took Warden as your Primal Order, but you can also choose it if you took Magician.
Could be. I hadn't considered that might cause confusion.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
You're right, I was thinking that the level 7 feature was linked to what was chosen at level 1.
Easily done. The level 7 choice does link to the options at level 15 (Improved Elemental Fury), though.
I was under the impression that the restrictions of the druid (i.e., no metal armor, no martial weapons for the Magician Primal Order, etc.) still applied in MC. So a Magician Druid-Fighter MC couldn't use martial weapons. But based on the fact that I'm new to 5e and your response, it sounds like I'm wrong about this. I don't see anything that specifically addresses this issue, MC class-restrictions, in the section on multiclassing.
Started playing 1e in the late 70s and stopped in the mid-80s. Started immersing myself into 5e in 2023
Pretty sure “no metal armor” is dead in the update; it wasn’t well articulated or thought out in the 2014 version as it was. And there was never a formal restriction on weapons, aside from the simple lack of most profs (and notably they got sickles and scimitars as options in 2014).
The cleaned up the wording on it. Now, you get light armor and simple weapons out of the box. Medium armor and martial weapons if you spec into warden. Here's the applicable text, with no restrictions on metal armor. This way is much better and straight forward imo and no room for any confusion or arguments. It's black and white, as a rule should be.
CREATING A DRUID To create a Druid, consult the following lists, which provide Hit Points, proficiencies, and armor training. If you’re making a level 1 character, also consult the “Starting Equipment” section, and if you’re using the multiclassing rules, see the “Multiclassing and the Druid” sidebar. Then look at the Druid table to see the class features you get at each level in this class. The descriptions of those features appear in the “Druid Class Features” section.
HIT POINTS Hit Dice: 1d8 per Druid level Hit Points at Level 1: 8 plus your Constitution modifier Hit Points per Later Level: 1d8 (or 5) plus your Constitution modifier
PROFICIENCIES Saving Throws: Intelligence, Wisdom Skills (Choose 2): Arcana, Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Religion, Survival
Weapons: Simple Weapons
Tools: Herbalism Kit
ARMOR TRAINING Light Armor, Shields
SIDEBAR for MC:
Armor Training. When you gain your first Druid level, you gain armor training with the following: Light Armor and Shields.
LEVEL 1: PRIMAL ORDER You have dedicated yourself to one of the following sacred roles of your choice:
Magician. You know one extra cantrip from the Druid spell list (see your Spellcasting feature for information on preparing spells). In addition, your mystical connection to nature gives you a bonus to your Intelligence (Nature) checks. The bonus equals your Wisdom modifier (minimum of +1).
Warden. Trained for battle, you gain Martial Weapon proficiency and armor training with Medium Armor.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha