The reason I was favoring removing the assassin has more to do with them being hard to work into a lot of campaigns (which tend to focus on good PCs and group action) than with their mechanics.
The reason I was favoring removing the assassin has more to do with them being hard to work into a lot of campaigns (which tend to focus on good PCs and group action) than with their mechanics.
That was arguable in the original phb so I see your point even though we disagree on how easy it was implemented. However the new design implies the next assassin won't have nearly as much "situational" aspects to it.
The reason I was favoring removing the assassin has more to do with them being hard to work into a lot of campaigns (which tend to focus on good PCs and group action) than with their mechanics.
As AC style assassins, sure, but just as a rogue subclass that packs some extra punch on the opening strike along with disguises and poison it fits the theme of a mundane but combat oriented rogue. Personally I think blending the Cunning Strike option from Thief into Assassin and the Bonus Action Sleight of Hand and traversal stuff into core Rogue would be the best way to sort out the subs. You get your stealthy Rogue, charismatic Rogue, and two flavors of magic Rogue; seems like a good core spread.
The big question now is what is Soulknife replacing. My money is on either Swashbuckler or Assassin, I don't see them getting rid of Thief or Arcane Trickster... but I could be wrong.
I would guess either Thief or Assassin. Both Thief & Assassin are basically "you want some rogue with your rogue?" whereas all the other classes have only one subclass that doubles down on the basic theme of the class. Maybe they'll merge Thief & Assassin together? Thief's weakest feature is their 3rd level one, whereas Assassin's only notable feature is their 3rd level one. So put them both together and you could have a great subclass.
The big question now is what is Soulknife replacing. My money is on either Swashbuckler or Assassin, I don't see them getting rid of Thief or Arcane Trickster... but I could be wrong.
I would guess either Thief or Assassin. Both Thief & Assassin are basically "you want some rogue with your rogue?" whereas all the other classes have only one subclass that doubles down on the basic theme of the class. Maybe they'll merge Thief & Assassin together? Thief's weakest feature is their 3rd level one, whereas Assassin's only notable feature is their 3rd level one. So put them both together and you could have a great subclass.
Honestly, the more I think about it, they could combine Thief with any of the others and still have a pretty fun/not overpowered subclass. So now my hope is that they just fold Thief into the base Rogue, bonus attunement and all.
Hmm, I think its kinda bad if the assassin archetype isnt in the base book, though I think its definitely needs the most work. The hyper stealth killer rogue is one of the most basic concepts for a rogue trope. I think a thief and an assassin are probably the two tropes that most come to mind when you say rogue in a fantasy universe.
Arcane theif is very popular so weird if that goes. Swashbuckler isnt as iconic, but its one of the more interesting, well designed options. Maybe they are expanding the subclasses available, though that seems unlikely with them closing in on finish line, and being under stress to be ready on time. Also they said they wanted to create a bit of balance and poetry in the subclass selection. However, expanded subclass options would be the best answer, as it would mean more player options, more updated subclasses, and more
Also, subclasses that are only in 2014 phb are more likely to be left behind, as many DMs look at the pHb2024 as replacing that book. Most of the content in it is actually overwritten. Perhaps they plan to release something later, but many players won't interact with that, unless its in the dmg/mm or srd.
Hmm, I think its kinda bad if the assassin archetype isnt in the base book, though I think its definitely needs the most work. The hyper stealth killer rogue is one of the most basic concepts for a rogue trope. I think a thief and an assassin are probably the two tropes that most come to mind when you say rogue in a fantasy universe.
Arcane theif is very popular so weird if that goes. Swashbuckler isnt as iconic, but its one of the more interesting, well designed options. Maybe they are expanding the subclasses available, though that seems unlikely with them closing in on finish line, and being under stress to be ready on time. Also they said they wanted to create a bit of balance and poetry in the subclass selection. However, expanded subclass options would be the best answer, as it would mean more player options, more updated subclasses, and more
Also, subclasses that are only in 2014 phb are more likely to be left behind, as many DMs look at the pHb2024 as replacing that book. Most of the content in it is actually overwritten. Perhaps they plan to release something later, but many players won't interact with that, unless its in the dmg/mm or srd.
The problem with the idea of "hyper killer" is that one subclass can't seriously outpace the others in terms of DPR, which is why the assassin currently feels lackluster; they attempted to give the potential to nova like that but only conditionally, and in practice those conditions rarely occur. That's why some of us think it would be better to blend the 9th level Thief feature into it, giving them a way to maintain stealth in combat.
i wouldn't miss assassin in the phb. "evil" or "edge" asside, what fantasy does it satisfy that can't be duplicated with another subclass plus some equipment? ...competent stealth or disguise? not restricted. ...instant kills? maybe, but that's complicated almost to the point of requiring narrative contrivance. call that a niche outside of normal party operation. so, not a phb thing.
others have suggested sticking it into the dmg as an npc class. save assassin for a "how to solo a campaign" book. I'd flip through the pages of a Keys to the Golden Really Dark and Edgy Vault book of pulling off longshot assassin missions.
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Hmm, I think its kinda bad if the assassin archetype isnt in the base book, though I think its definitely needs the most work. The hyper stealth killer rogue is one of the most basic concepts for a rogue trope. I think a thief and an assassin are probably the two tropes that most come to mind when you say rogue in a fantasy universe.
Arcane theif is very popular so weird if that goes. Swashbuckler isnt as iconic, but its one of the more interesting, well designed options. Maybe they are expanding the subclasses available, though that seems unlikely with them closing in on finish line, and being under stress to be ready on time. Also they said they wanted to create a bit of balance and poetry in the subclass selection. However, expanded subclass options would be the best answer, as it would mean more player options, more updated subclasses, and more
Also, subclasses that are only in 2014 phb are more likely to be left behind, as many DMs look at the pHb2024 as replacing that book. Most of the content in it is actually overwritten. Perhaps they plan to release something later, but many players won't interact with that, unless its in the dmg/mm or srd.
The problem with the idea of "hyper killer" is that one subclass can't seriously outpace the others in terms of DPR, which is why the assassin currently feels lackluster; they attempted to give the potential to nova like that but only conditionally, and in practice those conditions rarely occur. That's why some of us think it would be better to blend the 9th level Thief feature into it, giving them a way to maintain stealth in combat.
"hyper killer" is what you do, and how you do it. It doesnt need more DPR than everyone else, most martials have an archetype that is more about Combat, and iconically is damage focused. Berserker for example, seeks to create the idea and feel of a berserker, which thematically is probably as or more deadly than an assassin in concept, but its DPR isnt insane.
And yes, using stealth more/benefiting in combat would fit the trope. Also debilitating or Ccing enemies might be tied in. All that really has to happen is it needs give a greater feeling of it being focused on enemy stuff in a calculating rogue type way. It doesnt need to be the highest DPR class, though it shouldn't be the lowest dpr rogue sub class.
I'm sure there are fairly good concepts out there, and I could probably make one. Its not an impossible concept to pull off, and I don't even think having a strong round one is the issue, its more like having nothing else that feels suitably combat focused. The middle features feel like they should be sub features, and they aren't very good. with 3 hours, and props, you can advantage on deception checks to avoid detection, is a weak feature at best. Thats something any character in that situation should probably get.Same thing with the level 9.
Assassin doesn't need more damage than other martials but it should have more damage than other rogues, otherwise there's no real point in having it as a separate concept; any rogue can be an assassin at that point, just like any rogue can be a thief. As things currently stand, a Soulknife is a better assassin, and probably a better thief too, and now that it's entering core something needs to change with the other two (assuming they both even still exist.)
i wouldn't miss assassin in the phb. "evil" or "edge" asside, what fantasy does it satisfy that can't be duplicated with another subclass plus some equipment? ...competent stealth or disguise? not restricted. ...instant kills? maybe, but that's complicated almost to the point of requiring narrative contrivance. call that a niche outside of normal party operation. so, not a phb thing.
others have suggested sticking it into the dmg as an npc class. save assassin for a "how to solo a campaign" book. I'd flip through the pages of a Keys to the Golden Really Dark and Edgy Vault book of pulling off longshot assassin missions.
Just because you personally might not be interested in the trope, doesnt mean it isnt one of the common tropes of the archetype. You can say the same thing about most of the subclasses designed to be more focused on the classes trope. Open hand, Drunken fist, Champion, BM, berserker, hunter, there is usually a subclass that doubles down on some core class concepts, and other ones that focus on bringing something dramatically different. That is a good thing, it allows some to play heavily into archetype, and others to get something more unique or different.
its alignment isnt the trope, they don't need to be evil, the key difference in the trope is that its skills are more focused on killing/debilitaing/surprising enemies in a rogue fashion. That is not the theme of thief, arcane trickster, swash buckler, nor the psychic subclass. In fact its not a theme of any other subclass. But its one of the most common tropes when you think of a rogue.
The baseline rogue is not actually a damage focused class, (its currently one of the weaker classes) and most of the other subclasses don't focus on being sneaky, surprising, or setting up opponents. Its not that they don't get a taste of it in the main class, its that its a concept many want to explore further.
The baseline 2014 class just has sneak attack, cunning action's hide sub feature, and probably a high stealth roll due to expertise to try to flesh out the trope. Thats not sufficient for many players fantasy. In fact rogue is played up more as a social character by many, which makes it clear that it doesnt feel like a class that fullfills the sneaky combat class fantasy without a sub class.
Also, I'm not saying Assasin was great as it was, I'm saying the concept is a needed one for many players looking to play a rogue fantasty, and they probably need to have a good assassin type subclass in the entry level game
Thief is the basic Rogue (stealing stuff, breaking and entering, etc) just like Champion is the basic Fighter. I don't think it will be removed or rolled into the base class (much like they didn't want to roll Battle Master into the base Fighter). Assassin is the stealth/out of the shadows damage Rogue and infiltrator. It still needs work over the UA improvements like stealth in combat as mentioned above, maybe extended crit range 19-20 like champion? I don't know but it needs something. Arcane Trickster is the magical Rogue. And Soul Knife is the psionic Rogue.
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
Thief is the basic Rogue (stealing stuff, breaking and entering, etc) just like Champion is the basic Fighter. I don't think it will be removed or rolled into the base class (much like they didn't want to roll Battle Master into the base Fighter). Assassin is the stealth/out of the shadows damage Rogue and infiltrator. It still needs work over the UA improvements like stealth in combat as mentioned above, maybe extended crit range 19-20 like champion? I don't know but it needs something. Arcane Trickster is the magical Rogue. And Soul Knife is the psionic Rogue.
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
not removing the four makes the most sense, but people feel like they implied they only were doing 4 each, and they don't seem to have a lot of time. That said, some subs don't need much change, so maybe its not a big deal.
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
That's the simplest approach but losing Swashbuckler in core would make me sad, it really is the rogue that changes up the basic playstyle the most and it reviewed well in the UA. Plus duelists/pirates/Errol Flynn types fit into just about every D&D setting making it a good fit for core.
Thief's big problem is that its power level depends almost completely on what gear is available in the campaign, not even just magic items but standard equipment is what affects their power level the most. So having an entire subclass that's so DM-dependent is clunkier the more I think about it.
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
The thing is, the swashbuckler actually creates a distinct play style, the assassin really doesn't. All the level 3 features for the other subclasses let you do something you otherwise couldn't do, assassin just makes you a bit better at what a rogue already does.
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
The thing is, the swashbuckler actually creates a distinct play style, the assassin really doesn't. All the level 3 features for the other subclasses let you do something you otherwise couldn't do, assassin just makes you a bit better at what a rogue already does.
That's a good argument for Assassin becoming the Basic Rogue and Thief getting baselined. "You're a bit better at what the base class already does" is also a good description of subclasses like Hunter Ranger, Open Hand Monk, Champion Fighter etc.
If they do keep Assassin though, I hope they take another pass at Infiltration Expertise and Envenom Weapons as those still feel pretty lackluster. (the UA version of IE literally does nothing, because Disguise Kit + Deception already gives you advantage per the rules glossary!)
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
That's the simplest approach but losing Swashbuckler in core would make me sad, it really is the rogue that changes up the basic playstyle the most and it reviewed well in the UA. Plus duelists/pirates/Errol Flynn types fit into just about every D&D setting making it a good fit for core.
Thief's big problem is that its power level depends almost completely on what gear is available in the campaign, not even just magic items but standard equipment is what affects their power level the most. So having an entire subclass that's so DM-dependent is clunkier the more I think about it.
I agree and Swashbuckler is a good subclass. I just don’t think it will happen. WotC just isn’t that bold with this update to get rid of the three 2014 PHB subclasses despite Swashbuckler being playtested. Your “but standard equipment is what affects their power level the most” confuses me as standard equipment should be purchasable in basically every city or town of decent size. I agree about magic items and I think Thief could also use some work.
I agree and Swashbuckler is a good subclass. I just don’t think it will happen. WotC just isn’t that bold with this update to get rid of the three 2014 PHB subclasses despite Swashbuckler being playtested.
Your “but standard equipment is what affects their power level the most” confuses me as standard equipment should be purchasable in basically every city or town of decent size. I agree about magic items and I think Thief could also use some work.
Not all adventures take place in cities though - especially at level 3 when Fast Hands comes online you just might not be at a city story-wise yet. So everyone else is getting their shiny subclass stuff and you're begging the DM to get you some caltrops or alchemists fire or hunter's traps etc
All adventures don’t have to happen in a city. Do you not have any downtime activities that take place in or near a city or town? Are you forever in the wilderness from levels 1 to 20 with no civilization? Or ever have to restock or recuperate after an earlier adventure? My group doesn’t play published adventures so if this is common in those I’ve had no experience with it
I don’t recall of it was you or another that pointed out in the summoning spell thread, when costly components was at issue, that you could plan ahead and have said components on hand in preparation of gaining the level to get the spell in question. Couldn’t a rogue do the same with standard adventuring gear?
All adventures don’t have to happen in a city. Do you not have any downtime activities that take place in or near a city or town? Are you forever in the wilderness from levels 1 to 20 with no civilization? Or ever have to restock or recuperate after an earlier adventure? My group doesn’t play published adventures so if this is common in those I’ve had no experience with it
I don’t recall of it was you or another that pointed out in the summoning spell thread, when costly components was at issue, that you could plan ahead and have said components on hand in preparation of gaining the level to get the spell in question. Couldn’t a rogue do the same with standard adventuring gear?
I never said anything about "levels 1 to 20." But you could easily not have anything worth using Fast Hands with when you get your Thief subclass. That's not going to be a feel-good moment for the rogue player when everyone else has their new toys automatically.
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The reason I was favoring removing the assassin has more to do with them being hard to work into a lot of campaigns (which tend to focus on good PCs and group action) than with their mechanics.
That was arguable in the original phb so I see your point even though we disagree on how easy it was implemented. However the new design implies the next assassin won't have nearly as much "situational" aspects to it.
As AC style assassins, sure, but just as a rogue subclass that packs some extra punch on the opening strike along with disguises and poison it fits the theme of a mundane but combat oriented rogue. Personally I think blending the Cunning Strike option from Thief into Assassin and the Bonus Action Sleight of Hand and traversal stuff into core Rogue would be the best way to sort out the subs. You get your stealthy Rogue, charismatic Rogue, and two flavors of magic Rogue; seems like a good core spread.
I would guess either Thief or Assassin. Both Thief & Assassin are basically "you want some rogue with your rogue?" whereas all the other classes have only one subclass that doubles down on the basic theme of the class. Maybe they'll merge Thief & Assassin together? Thief's weakest feature is their 3rd level one, whereas Assassin's only notable feature is their 3rd level one. So put them both together and you could have a great subclass.
Honestly, the more I think about it, they could combine Thief with any of the others and still have a pretty fun/not overpowered subclass. So now my hope is that they just fold Thief into the base Rogue, bonus attunement and all.
Hmm, I think its kinda bad if the assassin archetype isnt in the base book, though I think its definitely needs the most work. The hyper stealth killer rogue is one of the most basic concepts for a rogue trope. I think a thief and an assassin are probably the two tropes that most come to mind when you say rogue in a fantasy universe.
Arcane theif is very popular so weird if that goes. Swashbuckler isnt as iconic, but its one of the more interesting, well designed options. Maybe they are expanding the subclasses available, though that seems unlikely with them closing in on finish line, and being under stress to be ready on time. Also they said they wanted to create a bit of balance and poetry in the subclass selection. However, expanded subclass options would be the best answer, as it would mean more player options, more updated subclasses, and more
Also, subclasses that are only in 2014 phb are more likely to be left behind, as many DMs look at the pHb2024 as replacing that book. Most of the content in it is actually overwritten. Perhaps they plan to release something later, but many players won't interact with that, unless its in the dmg/mm or srd.
The problem with the idea of "hyper killer" is that one subclass can't seriously outpace the others in terms of DPR, which is why the assassin currently feels lackluster; they attempted to give the potential to nova like that but only conditionally, and in practice those conditions rarely occur. That's why some of us think it would be better to blend the 9th level Thief feature into it, giving them a way to maintain stealth in combat.
i wouldn't miss assassin in the phb. "evil" or "edge" asside, what fantasy does it satisfy that can't be duplicated with another subclass plus some equipment? ...competent stealth or disguise? not restricted. ...instant kills? maybe, but that's complicated almost to the point of requiring narrative contrivance. call that a niche outside of normal party operation. so, not a phb thing.
others have suggested sticking it into the dmg as an npc class. save assassin for a "how to solo a campaign" book. I'd flip through the pages of a Keys to the
GoldenReally Dark and Edgy Vault book of pulling off longshot assassin missions.unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
"hyper killer" is what you do, and how you do it. It doesnt need more DPR than everyone else, most martials have an archetype that is more about Combat, and iconically is damage focused. Berserker for example, seeks to create the idea and feel of a berserker, which thematically is probably as or more deadly than an assassin in concept, but its DPR isnt insane.
And yes, using stealth more/benefiting in combat would fit the trope. Also debilitating or Ccing enemies might be tied in. All that really has to happen is it needs give a greater feeling of it being focused on enemy stuff in a calculating rogue type way. It doesnt need to be the highest DPR class, though it shouldn't be the lowest dpr rogue sub class.
I'm sure there are fairly good concepts out there, and I could probably make one. Its not an impossible concept to pull off, and I don't even think having a strong round one is the issue, its more like having nothing else that feels suitably combat focused. The middle features feel like they should be sub features, and they aren't very good. with 3 hours, and props, you can advantage on deception checks to avoid detection, is a weak feature at best. Thats something any character in that situation should probably get.Same thing with the level 9.
Assassin doesn't need more damage than other martials but it should have more damage than other rogues, otherwise there's no real point in having it as a separate concept; any rogue can be an assassin at that point, just like any rogue can be a thief. As things currently stand, a Soulknife is a better assassin, and probably a better thief too, and now that it's entering core something needs to change with the other two (assuming they both even still exist.)
Just because you personally might not be interested in the trope, doesnt mean it isnt one of the common tropes of the archetype. You can say the same thing about most of the subclasses designed to be more focused on the classes trope. Open hand, Drunken fist, Champion, BM, berserker, hunter, there is usually a subclass that doubles down on some core class concepts, and other ones that focus on bringing something dramatically different. That is a good thing, it allows some to play heavily into archetype, and others to get something more unique or different.
its alignment isnt the trope, they don't need to be evil, the key difference in the trope is that its skills are more focused on killing/debilitaing/surprising enemies in a rogue fashion. That is not the theme of thief, arcane trickster, swash buckler, nor the psychic subclass. In fact its not a theme of any other subclass. But its one of the most common tropes when you think of a rogue.
The baseline rogue is not actually a damage focused class, (its currently one of the weaker classes) and most of the other subclasses don't focus on being sneaky, surprising, or setting up opponents. Its not that they don't get a taste of it in the main class, its that its a concept many want to explore further.
The baseline 2014 class just has sneak attack, cunning action's hide sub feature, and probably a high stealth roll due to expertise to try to flesh out the trope. Thats not sufficient for many players fantasy. In fact rogue is played up more as a social character by many, which makes it clear that it doesnt feel like a class that fullfills the sneaky combat class fantasy without a sub class.
Also, I'm not saying Assasin was great as it was, I'm saying the concept is a needed one for many players looking to play a rogue fantasty, and they probably need to have a good assassin type subclass in the entry level game
Thief is the basic Rogue (stealing stuff, breaking and entering, etc) just like Champion is the basic Fighter. I don't think it will be removed or rolled into the base class (much like they didn't want to roll Battle Master into the base Fighter). Assassin is the stealth/out of the shadows damage Rogue and infiltrator. It still needs work over the UA improvements like stealth in combat as mentioned above, maybe extended crit range 19-20 like champion? I don't know but it needs something. Arcane Trickster is the magical Rogue. And Soul Knife is the psionic Rogue.
I would be surprised if any of the 2014 PHB rogues get removed.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
not removing the four makes the most sense, but people feel like they implied they only were doing 4 each, and they don't seem to have a lot of time. That said, some subs don't need much change, so maybe its not a big deal.
That's the simplest approach but losing Swashbuckler in core would make me sad, it really is the rogue that changes up the basic playstyle the most and it reviewed well in the UA. Plus duelists/pirates/Errol Flynn types fit into just about every D&D setting making it a good fit for core.
Thief's big problem is that its power level depends almost completely on what gear is available in the campaign, not even just magic items but standard equipment is what affects their power level the most. So having an entire subclass that's so DM-dependent is clunkier the more I think about it.
The thing is, the swashbuckler actually creates a distinct play style, the assassin really doesn't. All the level 3 features for the other subclasses let you do something you otherwise couldn't do, assassin just makes you a bit better at what a rogue already does.
That's a good argument for Assassin becoming the Basic Rogue and Thief getting baselined. "You're a bit better at what the base class already does" is also a good description of subclasses like Hunter Ranger, Open Hand Monk, Champion Fighter etc.
If they do keep Assassin though, I hope they take another pass at Infiltration Expertise and Envenom Weapons as those still feel pretty lackluster. (the UA version of IE literally does nothing, because Disguise Kit + Deception already gives you advantage per the rules glossary!)
I agree and Swashbuckler is a good subclass. I just don’t think it will happen. WotC just isn’t that bold with this update to get rid of the three 2014 PHB subclasses despite Swashbuckler being playtested.
Your “but standard equipment is what affects their power level the most” confuses me as standard equipment should be purchasable in basically every city or town of decent size. I agree about magic items and I think Thief could also use some work.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Fair enough - we'll see.
Not all adventures take place in cities though - especially at level 3 when Fast Hands comes online you just might not be at a city story-wise yet. So everyone else is getting their shiny subclass stuff and you're begging the DM to get you some caltrops or alchemists fire or hunter's traps etc
All adventures don’t have to happen in a city. Do you not have any downtime activities that take place in or near a city or town? Are you forever in the wilderness from levels 1 to 20 with no civilization? Or ever have to restock or recuperate after an earlier adventure? My group doesn’t play published adventures so if this is common in those I’ve had no experience with it
I don’t recall of it was you or another that pointed out in the summoning spell thread, when costly components was at issue, that you could plan ahead and have said components on hand in preparation of gaining the level to get the spell in question. Couldn’t a rogue do the same with standard adventuring gear?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I never said anything about "levels 1 to 20." But you could easily not have anything worth using Fast Hands with when you get your Thief subclass. That's not going to be a feel-good moment for the rogue player when everyone else has their new toys automatically.