I was thinking of playing samurai fighter so i got wondering which one would better, a dex-based range attacker or a two-handed melee attacker, especially with the Fighting Spirit advantage. Since i couldnt find answer online I tried to calculate myself.
The race selected is half-elf (this is important for archer since a feat depends on it).
The damage I calculated is for around 15th level, and assumes average enemy AC = 18.
This calculation only calculates damage for 3 weapon attacks with GWM or Sharpshooter, while Fighting Spirit advantage is on.
Here Two-handed build needs one feat (Great Weapon Master), while archer build needs two feats (Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy)
Two-handed Melee Warrior
Strength Modifier +5, Proficiency +5
Weapon-Greatsword (2d6+5) (Crit:4d6+5)
Fighting Spirit (Adv on all attacks)
Fighting Style-Great Weapon Fighting (Reroll 1's and 2's on damage)
Feat-Great Weapon Master (-5 on attack, +10 on damage)
Average Damage: 47.12 (per turn)
Ranged Archer Warrior
Dexterity Modifier +5, Proficiency +5
Weapon-Longbow (1d8+5) (Crit:2d8+5)
Fighting Spirit (Adv on all attacks)
Fighting Style-Archery (+2 on attack)
Feat-Sharpshooter (-5 on attack, +10 on damage)
Feat-Elven Accuracy (turns Adv from fighting spirit into super Adv)
Average Damage: 53.03 (per turn)
So atleast while fighting spirit is on, archer does almost 5 more damage per turn at the cost of one feat and possibly one less AC, but with better initative, no disadvantage on stealth and attacking people from the comfort of the backline.
PS: I am a newbie, so if I made any mistake please feel free to tell me.
A few things to consider outside the math: How will the character role-play? This might make a difference because front-line fighters are often a bit more aggressive while shooters usually feel more calm and collected.
As you noted, the higher Dex = higher Initiative, no Stealth problems (which can be all kinds of useful) and so on. Based on your previous experience, is Stealth going to be commonly used in your game or not? If it is, then heavy armor might be a real issue.
Given that you'll have Advantage plus a +5 bonus to hit using Sharpshooter, the Elven Accuracy might actually be redundant. What I'm saying is that the Elven Accuracy Feat might not be that important. Also, you get 3 attacks at Fighter level 11 so I'm not sure why you specified lvl 15. If the specific level isn't important, let me suggest an alternative:
A lvl 11 Samurai, lvl 4 Gloom Stalker Ranger. At lvl 11 you still have 3 attacks and you still get the (REALLY COOL) Tireless Spirit trait (so no matter how many fights you get into in a day, you always have at least one Fighting Spirit in-pocket). The Gloom Stalker Ranger has a bunch of cool features like Dark Vision and Invisibility to creatures who can only see you with Dark Vision. On your first round of combat, you gain extra movement and, if you Attack (and why wouldn't you) you not only gain an EXTRA Attack but it does an additional 1d8 damage. You can do all of this as a Variant Human, take the bonus Feat right away (all you need is Sharpshooter) and you're off and running.
You're obviously good at math so play around with different combinations based on how you think the game will play OUTSIDE of combat first would be my advice. Are Elves revered or looked down on in the world for some reason? Are some of the other players going to be shooters as well? If so, they might appreciate someone up front taking the heat off of them.
Because both are requiring feats, I wouldn't assume a +5 stat, but +3 stat. It's more realistic.
I like the idea of combining Fighting Spirit and Elven Accuracy with Sharpshooter. If you use Sharpshooter when you have -5 to hit, Advantage on the attack roll is roughly equivalent to a +5 to hit. So having a 3rd die ups that by another margin... plus the increased chance to crit. That said, Fighting Spirit is rather limited, 3 times a long rest. This isn't like a halfing rogue hiding and attacking every turn.
That does get into the benefit of Gloom Stalker, but Gloom Stalker really only kicks in if the whole party has Darkvision. Because it requires there to be no light, so like Stealth the party has to agree to not use light and snuff out any lights the enemy might have. Then the Gloomstalker always has Advantage, because they are effectively invisible.
You forgot one key thing about Dread Ambusher. The wording is "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action." This means a Gloom Stalker with 2 levels of Fighter that uses their Action Surge on the first turn of combat, utilized Dread Ambusher twice.
A few things to consider outside the math: How will the character role-play? This might make a difference because front-line fighters are often a bit more aggressive while shooters usually feel more calm and collected.
As you noted, the higher Dex = higher Initiative, no Stealth problems (which can be all kinds of useful) and so on. Based on your previous experience, is Stealth going to be commonly used in your game or not? If it is, then heavy armor might be a real issue.
Given that you'll have Advantage plus a +5 bonus to hit using Sharpshooter, the Elven Accuracy might actually be redundant. What I'm saying is that the Elven Accuracy Feat might not be that important. Also, you get 3 attacks at Fighter level 11 so I'm not sure why you specified lvl 15. If the specific level isn't important, let me suggest an alternative:
A lvl 11 Samurai, lvl 4 Gloom Stalker Ranger. At lvl 11 you still have 3 attacks and you still get the (REALLY COOL) Tireless Spirit trait (so no matter how many fights you get into in a day, you always have at least one Fighting Spirit in-pocket). The Gloom Stalker Ranger has a bunch of cool features like Dark Vision and Invisibility to creatures who can only see you with Dark Vision. On your first round of combat, you gain extra movement and, if you Attack (and why wouldn't you) you not only gain an EXTRA Attack but it does an additional 1d8 damage. You can do all of this as a Variant Human, take the bonus Feat right away (all you need is Sharpshooter) and you're off and running.
You're obviously good at math so play around with different combinations based on how you think the game will play OUTSIDE of combat first would be my advice. Are Elves revered or looked down on in the world for some reason? Are some of the other players going to be shooters as well? If so, they might appreciate someone up front taking the heat off of them.
Fun first, math second is not a bad motto IMHO.
Oh, of course fun and roleplay always take precedence damage. Its just since I like playing both melee or ranger, I was wondering which would be better, and I also was intrigued if the elven accuracy feat is useful or not.
And as FullMetalBunny mentioned above, sharpshooter is -5 to attack, not +5, hence elf accuracy is actually important. But you are right, this is just one option of playing and the gloomstalker build looks nice, will definitely check that out.
Because both are requiring feats, I wouldn't assume a +5 stat, but +3 stat. It's more realistic.
I like the idea of combining Fighting Spirit and Elven Accuracy with Sharpshooter. If you use Sharpshooter when you have -5 to hit, Advantage on the attack roll is roughly equivalent to a +5 to hit. So having a 3rd die ups that by another margin... plus the increased chance to crit. That said, Fighting Spirit is rather limited, 3 times a long rest. This isn't like a halfing rogue hiding and attacking every turn.
That does get into the benefit of Gloom Stalker, but Gloom Stalker really only kicks in if the whole party has Darkvision. Because it requires there to be no light, so like Stealth the party has to agree to not use light and snuff out any lights the enemy might have. Then the Gloomstalker always has Advantage, because they are effectively invisible.
You forgot one key thing about Dread Ambusher. The wording is "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action." This means a Gloom Stalker with 2 levels of Fighter that uses their Action Surge on the first turn of combat, utilized Dread Ambusher twice.
This build is for lvl 15, and fighter get 5 ASI's upto that level so if you start with 15 in dex: sharpshooter, +2 dex, elven accuracy, +2 dex; will get you to +5 stat at level 12.
Yes, fighting spirit is 3 per long rest but you also would have 2-3 action surges per long rest, so combined with it, it is powerful and once you cross level 10 you get fighting spirit once every time you roll initative. I still havent looked into gloom Stalker build, but will look into that.
Your math with the greatsword is missing one rather notable trait, in my opinion. Unlike Sharpshooter, which removes penalties for attacking at ranged, Great Weapon Mastery has an additional Cleave effect, that lets you make another attack per turn. While it won't effect your Nova damage against a big bad, it does boost your damage quite a bit against the rank and file.
Is there any particular reason why you're only getting Elven Accuracy for the archer and not the greatsword bearer? If we want to be fair, we should be giving the Samurai a second feat and compare as well, perhaps Sentinel; this will increase your damage and battle control, a major boon. You also seem to lack crossbow mastery or some other method of dealing with creatures that get within melee distance of you, which needs to be considered. Disadvantage hurts / taking an OA hurts.
Anyways, the ultimate answer here, for which is better? Should actually depend on your group composition, imho. In my personal experience, you're going to eventually need someone in the group that can make good Strength (athletics) checks during exploration and dealing with traps, and a good group should have roughly half the members on the front line to protect back row people. I'm actually partial to the greatsword over bow - not only because of the ability check and the guarding ability, but because going strength has a lot better magic item potential. Dexterity doesn't have the equivalent to a Belt of Giant Strength, after all.
So, that's my two cents. The best build is the one that fits within your party and covers areas that others aren't.
Your math with the greatsword is missing one rather notable trait, in my opinion. Unlike Sharpshooter, which removes penalties for attacking at ranged, Great Weapon Mastery has an additional Cleave effect, that lets you make another attack per turn. While it won't effect your Nova damage against a big bad, it does boost your damage quite a bit against the rank and file.
Is there any particular reason why you're only getting Elven Accuracy for the archer and not the greatsword bearer? If we want to be fair, we should be giving the Samurai a second feat and compare as well, perhaps Sentinel; this will increase your damage and battle control, a major boon. You also seem to lack crossbow mastery or some other method of dealing with creatures that get within melee distance of you, which needs to be considered. Disadvantage hurts / taking an OA hurts.
Anyways, the ultimate answer here, for which is better? Should actually depend on your group composition, imho. In my personal experience, you're going to eventually need someone in the group that can make good Strength (athletics) checks during exploration and dealing with traps, and a good group should have roughly half the members on the front line to protect back row people. I'm actually partial to the greatsword over bow - not only because of the ability check and the guarding ability, but because going strength has a lot better magic item potential. Dexterity doesn't have the equivalent to a Belt of Giant Strength, after all.
So, that's my two cents. The best build is the one that fits within your party and covers areas that others aren't.
There are definitely many benefits of a melee build, and since two-handed build has an extra feat on the ranged build, there are many options like lucky, magic initiate, sentinal and polearm which can increase damage. But also elven accuracy can work at times when you have advantage without using fighting accuracy, and crossbow master can be further benificial.
So yes, there are a lot of variable which I could'nt consider when doing the calculation. I'm sorry if it came across as if I was stating absolute. There are lot things that make a build besides nova damage. Definitely things like group composition, roleplay, and what is fun to you, should be a greater priority. This was more of a random calculation which I wanted to share.
Is there any particular reason why you're only getting Elven Accuracy for the archer and not the greatsword bearer? If we want to be fair, we should be giving the Samurai a second feat and compare as well, perhaps Sentinel; this will increase your damage and battle control, a major boon. You also seem to lack crossbow mastery or some other method of dealing with creatures that get within melee distance of you, which needs to be considered. Disadvantage hurts / taking an OA hurts.
Is there any particular reason why you're only getting Elven Accuracy for the archer and not the greatsword bearer? If we want to be fair, we should be giving the Samurai a second feat and compare as well, perhaps Sentinel; this will increase your damage and battle control, a major boon. You also seem to lack crossbow mastery or some other method of dealing with creatures that get within melee distance of you, which needs to be considered. Disadvantage hurts / taking an OA hurts.
I would actually consider Savage Attacker as a possible second Feat for a GWM as well. Nothing like scoring a hit, with +10 damage, and rolling a 1 or a 2. Sort of like having a very special-purpose Luck, usable only for GW damage.
Tons of ways to go with this. One of the things I love about 5e.
Is there any particular reason why you're only getting Elven Accuracy for the archer and not the greatsword bearer? If we want to be fair, we should be giving the Samurai a second feat and compare as well, perhaps Sentinel; this will increase your damage and battle control, a major boon. You also seem to lack crossbow mastery or some other method of dealing with creatures that get within melee distance of you, which needs to be considered. Disadvantage hurts / taking an OA hurts.
I think he specified level 15 because that’s when samurai fighters can disregard advantage on an attack for an extra attack so by level 15 samurai fighters are making 4 attacks, 2 or which are at advantage
I'm going to be an old coot and suggest that you try to determine what everyone else in the party is playing. You don't seem particularly attached to either melee or ranged to see what the other players are playing. While it can be fun being in an all-melee party, an all-ranged one will become a melee party about round two.
When it comes to Samurai I often say "Why not both". I typically go with the archer fighting style and then the two-weapon master and then sharpshooter. By doing both well you play much more "legendary" Samurai.
When it comes to Samurai I often say "Why not both". I typically go with the archer fighting style and then the two-weapon master and then sharpshooter. By doing both well you play much more "legendary" Samurai.
For this, it definitely has to be a dwarf if we want to optimize. Start with 17 in STR & DEX, lvl 4 get both to 18, then at 6 and 8 we get SS and GWM.
When it comes to Samurai I often say "Why not both". I typically go with the archer fighting style and then the two-weapon master and then sharpshooter. By doing both well you play much more "legendary" Samurai.
For this, it definitely has to be a dwarf if we want to optimize. Start with 17 in STR & DEX, lvl 4 get both to 18, then at 6 and 8 we get SS and GWM.
I am doing a V. Human with this starting at level 5. I took the Great weapon fighting feat as the human feat. and +2 to strength for the level 4 ASI. My Plan at 6 is to take resilient for +1 dex making dex into a saving throw proficiency, then 7 I gain wisdom as a saving throw proficiency, and 8 I can take another +1 dex feat. This does mean I am missing SS for a few more levels :( but it also means that by level 7 I have archery as a fighting style, great weapon fighting and have all 3 primary saves proficiencies. (Wisdom I put at 14, Con at 12 and Cha at 10, int dump)
Samurai Archer vs Samurai Two-handed
I was thinking of playing samurai fighter so i got wondering which one would better, a dex-based range attacker or a two-handed melee attacker, especially with the Fighting Spirit advantage. Since i couldnt find answer online I tried to calculate myself.
Two-handed Melee Warrior
Average Damage: 47.12 (per turn)
Ranged Archer Warrior
Average Damage: 53.03 (per turn)
So atleast while fighting spirit is on, archer does almost 5 more damage per turn at the cost of one feat and possibly one less AC, but with better initative, no disadvantage on stealth and attacking people from the comfort of the backline.
PS: I am a newbie, so if I made any mistake please feel free to tell me.
A few things to consider outside the math: How will the character role-play? This might make a difference because front-line fighters are often a bit more aggressive while shooters usually feel more calm and collected.
As you noted, the higher Dex = higher Initiative, no Stealth problems (which can be all kinds of useful) and so on. Based on your previous experience, is Stealth going to be commonly used in your game or not? If it is, then heavy armor might be a real issue.
Given that you'll have Advantage plus a +5 bonus to hit using Sharpshooter, the Elven Accuracy might actually be redundant. What I'm saying is that the Elven Accuracy Feat might not be that important. Also, you get 3 attacks at Fighter level 11 so I'm not sure why you specified lvl 15. If the specific level isn't important, let me suggest an alternative:
A lvl 11 Samurai, lvl 4 Gloom Stalker Ranger. At lvl 11 you still have 3 attacks and you still get the (REALLY COOL) Tireless Spirit trait (so no matter how many fights you get into in a day, you always have at least one Fighting Spirit in-pocket). The Gloom Stalker Ranger has a bunch of cool features like Dark Vision and Invisibility to creatures who can only see you with Dark Vision. On your first round of combat, you gain extra movement and, if you Attack (and why wouldn't you) you not only gain an EXTRA Attack but it does an additional 1d8 damage. You can do all of this as a Variant Human, take the bonus Feat right away (all you need is Sharpshooter) and you're off and running.
You're obviously good at math so play around with different combinations based on how you think the game will play OUTSIDE of combat first would be my advice. Are Elves revered or looked down on in the world for some reason? Are some of the other players going to be shooters as well? If so, they might appreciate someone up front taking the heat off of them.
Fun first, math second is not a bad motto IMHO.
Because both are requiring feats, I wouldn't assume a +5 stat, but +3 stat. It's more realistic.
I like the idea of combining Fighting Spirit and Elven Accuracy with Sharpshooter. If you use Sharpshooter when you have -5 to hit, Advantage on the attack roll is roughly equivalent to a +5 to hit. So having a 3rd die ups that by another margin... plus the increased chance to crit.
That said, Fighting Spirit is rather limited, 3 times a long rest. This isn't like a halfing rogue hiding and attacking every turn.
That does get into the benefit of Gloom Stalker, but Gloom Stalker really only kicks in if the whole party has Darkvision. Because it requires there to be no light, so like Stealth the party has to agree to not use light and snuff out any lights the enemy might have. Then the Gloomstalker always has Advantage, because they are effectively invisible.
You forgot one key thing about Dread Ambusher. The wording is "If you take the Attack action on that turn, you can make one additional weapon attack as part of that action." This means a Gloom Stalker with 2 levels of Fighter that uses their Action Surge on the first turn of combat, utilized Dread Ambusher twice.
Oh, of course fun and roleplay always take precedence damage. Its just since I like playing both melee or ranger, I was wondering which would be better, and I also was intrigued if the elven accuracy feat is useful or not.
And as FullMetalBunny mentioned above, sharpshooter is -5 to attack, not +5, hence elf accuracy is actually important. But you are right, this is just one option of playing and the gloomstalker build looks nice, will definitely check that out.
This build is for lvl 15, and fighter get 5 ASI's upto that level so if you start with 15 in dex: sharpshooter, +2 dex, elven accuracy, +2 dex; will get you to +5 stat at level 12.
Yes, fighting spirit is 3 per long rest but you also would have 2-3 action surges per long rest, so combined with it, it is powerful and once you cross level 10 you get fighting spirit once every time you roll initative. I still havent looked into gloom Stalker build, but will look into that.
Your math with the greatsword is missing one rather notable trait, in my opinion. Unlike Sharpshooter, which removes penalties for attacking at ranged, Great Weapon Mastery has an additional Cleave effect, that lets you make another attack per turn. While it won't effect your Nova damage against a big bad, it does boost your damage quite a bit against the rank and file.
Is there any particular reason why you're only getting Elven Accuracy for the archer and not the greatsword bearer? If we want to be fair, we should be giving the Samurai a second feat and compare as well, perhaps Sentinel; this will increase your damage and battle control, a major boon. You also seem to lack crossbow mastery or some other method of dealing with creatures that get within melee distance of you, which needs to be considered. Disadvantage hurts / taking an OA hurts.
Anyways, the ultimate answer here, for which is better? Should actually depend on your group composition, imho. In my personal experience, you're going to eventually need someone in the group that can make good Strength (athletics) checks during exploration and dealing with traps, and a good group should have roughly half the members on the front line to protect back row people. I'm actually partial to the greatsword over bow - not only because of the ability check and the guarding ability, but because going strength has a lot better magic item potential. Dexterity doesn't have the equivalent to a Belt of Giant Strength, after all.
So, that's my two cents. The best build is the one that fits within your party and covers areas that others aren't.
There are definitely many benefits of a melee build, and since two-handed build has an extra feat on the ranged build, there are many options like lucky,
magic initiate, sentinal and polearm which can increase damage.
But also elven accuracy can work at times when you have advantage without using fighting accuracy, and crossbow master can be further benificial.
So yes, there are a lot of variable which I could'nt consider when doing the calculation. I'm sorry if it came across as if I was stating absolute.
There are lot things that make a build besides nova damage. Definitely things like group composition, roleplay, and what is fun to you, should be a greater priority. This was more of a random calculation which I wanted to share.
I would actually consider Savage Attacker as a possible second Feat for a GWM as well. Nothing like scoring a hit, with +10 damage, and rolling a 1 or a 2. Sort of like having a very special-purpose Luck, usable only for GW damage.
Tons of ways to go with this. One of the things I love about 5e.
I think he specified level 15 because that’s when samurai fighters can disregard advantage on an attack for an extra attack so by level 15 samurai fighters are making 4 attacks, 2 or which are at advantage
I'm going to be an old coot and suggest that you try to determine what everyone else in the party is playing. You don't seem particularly attached to either melee or ranged to see what the other players are playing. While it can be fun being in an all-melee party, an all-ranged one will become a melee party about round two.
When it comes to Samurai I often say "Why not both". I typically go with the archer fighting style and then the two-weapon master and then sharpshooter. By doing both well you play much more "legendary" Samurai.
For this, it definitely has to be a dwarf if we want to optimize. Start with 17 in STR & DEX, lvl 4 get both to 18, then at 6 and 8 we get SS and GWM.
I am doing a V. Human with this starting at level 5. I took the Great weapon fighting feat as the human feat. and +2 to strength for the level 4 ASI. My Plan at 6 is to take resilient for +1 dex making dex into a saving throw proficiency, then 7 I gain wisdom as a saving throw proficiency, and 8 I can take another +1 dex feat. This does mean I am missing SS for a few more levels :( but it also means that by level 7 I have archery as a fighting style, great weapon fighting and have all 3 primary saves proficiencies. (Wisdom I put at 14, Con at 12 and Cha at 10, int dump)