I have never found the barbarian flavor appealing at all. But with Tasha's, I think I have found a way to make a barb that looks fun both RPwise and mechanically viable. This idea came to me when I was looking for good ways to build an echo knight multiclass
High Elf
Background: Noble
Levels 1-3 --> Echo Knight
Levels 4+ --> Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Concept: This elf is not a classic barbarian at all. They channel the spirits of their ancestors via both Echo Knight and Ancestral path features. Instead of rage, they enter more of a shamanistic trance, summoning ancestors via martial arts. Almost like Bladedancing but through a completely different mechanism.
Mechanical notes
Would probably go rapier + shield, rapier + dagger, or dual rapiers. All for the cool factor. Nope, it is not optimized for damage, but feck it.
The basic sequence is to engage with the echo as much as possible to trigger the special features of Ancestral Path barbarian. With lots of HP and rage resistance
Sentinel is a key feat - works great for locking down and annoying bosses with the echo
Duelling or Two Weapon fighting style
Tasha's allows Elves with racial bonuses to STR and CON. That's what makes this build doable without being disadvantaged.
Waiting until 7 for your first ASI and level 8 for extra attack is just untenable on a double martial MC. You're going to suffer a lot while leveling up.
I would go Ancestral Guardian 6 to start. This fleshes out your control kit, establishes an ASI and gets extra attack in a timely manner.
Then I would go Echo Knight 4. Action Surge and a fighting style give you dangerous nova potential alongside unleash incarnation. You sacrifice getting the echo early but I think this build will be much more functional.
I don't have a direction for this build, but if you get past level 10, I think more barb and a new dip in rogue could both be quite good.
I think I would go for dueling fighting style over two-weapon fighting. Keeps you at a good DPS, while making you tankier to support your role as a melee battlefield controller.
Overall really like the concept you're going for. Love the crossover you've found in the flavor of the Echo Knight and Ancestral Guardian. Just a great example of mechanics and flavor going hand in hand.
I think this could lead to some fun character quirks, like you have a propensity to tell longwinded stories about the deeds of your relatives, or you sometimes have a hard time concentrating because your ancestral spirits talk to you in your head
I'm actually working on a similar build though I went the other way
Instead of ancestors I made them alternate reality version of my character To flavor the Barb more toward the Echo Knight theme. With the Echo being the prime one I am most connected to.
Also took Reborn Lineage instead of elf and Dark Gift "Living Shadow" to get things rolling a low level
There is much much more to the back story that gives it a TON of great RP flavor but I think its going to be great
I have a very, very similar build, half-orc EK/Barb- I'm finding it ridiculously effective as both a striker and as a tank/defender. I'll post the link to the discussion, but here are the highlights:
I don't think there's any optimization reason (that I can see) that justifies going past a two-level dip in barb. HeironymousZed has it, in my opinion, right, when he raises concerns about the delay of extra attack and ASI. I see why Path of the AG might be attractive. Having seen what my EK6/Barb2 can do with things as-is, the cost of delaying attacks and asi aren't worth the gains of the AG. Find out for yourself- playtest the build;
Consider PAM rather than sentinel for your first feat. No, it's not for the bonus action attack with the butt of the polearm, but for the OA when an enemy ENTERS your reach. Anything you can do to use your reaction every round is good;
Get your fighter levels first, at least to 5 before dipping into barb; and finally:
Really spend some time figuring out and then playtesting what your echo can do. This isn't a broken subclass but there's a learning curve that needs to be mastered before it can really be effective. The EK is a one-trick pony- but it's a helluva trick and a helluva pony!
I would love to see this idea worked up with the Double-bladed scimitar (just about the most 'Elf-y' weapon I know of outside of a bow). I love the look!
I have never found the barbarian flavor appealing at all. But with Tasha's, I think I have found a way to make a barb that looks fun both RPwise and mechanically viable. This idea came to me when I was looking for good ways to build an echo knight multiclass
High Elf
Background: Noble
Levels 1-3 --> Echo Knight
Levels 4+ --> Ancestral Guardian Barbarian
Concept: This elf is not a classic barbarian at all. They channel the spirits of their ancestors via both Echo Knight and Ancestral path features. Instead of rage, they enter more of a shamanistic trance, summoning ancestors via martial arts. Almost like Bladedancing but through a completely different mechanism.
Mechanical notes
Would probably go rapier + shield, rapier + dagger, or dual rapiers. All for the cool factor. Nope, it is not optimized for damage, but feck it.
The basic sequence is to engage with the echo as much as possible to trigger the special features of Ancestral Path barbarian. With lots of HP and rage resistance
Sentinel is a key feat - works great for locking down and annoying bosses with the echo
Duelling or Two Weapon fighting style
Tasha's allows Elves with racial bonuses to STR and CON. That's what makes this build doable without being disadvantaged.
Looks interesting.
Not saying you are planning on doing this, but remember that something like Elven Accuracy (which requires the attack roll to be using Dex, Int, Wis or Cha) won't work well with Rage's requirement that the attack roll be Str. So it can work, just no triple advantage, unless you want to forgo some of the benefits of rage. Worse, Reckless Attacks only works with Str, so yeah, just avoid going the Dex route entirely imo.
You are correct on an optimized build. I would have done it that way myself. But I made a background that required the echo right away. I'm playing a Goliath and his echo is his dead twin brother, trapped inside a Ring of Mind Shielding. So he's got his bigger, better, faster, stronger, smarter brother in his head. The echo also has not aged from what his brother looked like before dying. So as he gets older and scarred, the echo looks the same. For RP purposes, this is how I needed it to be. So yeah, I am pretty handicapped right now. It was amazing when I finally got Reckless attack and Rage at lvl 5.
We're doing Tyranny of Dragons, so I'm gonna be handicapped until the end of Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Which sucks but, it's what felt right for the character. I'm going to be pretty BA though in Rise of Tiamat though. And the Echo with Sentinel has been pretty integral to survival. Kept a good number of enemies at bay, away from the Cleric and myself with him. It's a tough row to hoe, but I think it will be worth it in the long run. If he survives.
And for clarification, I'm lvl 5 with 2 in Barb. I was going to do Ancestral at first, but I really like Path of the Giant. So that's my intent.
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I have never found the barbarian flavor appealing at all. But with Tasha's, I think I have found a way to make a barb that looks fun both RPwise and mechanically viable. This idea came to me when I was looking for good ways to build an echo knight multiclass
Concept:
This elf is not a classic barbarian at all. They channel the spirits of their ancestors via both Echo Knight and Ancestral path features. Instead of rage, they enter more of a shamanistic trance, summoning ancestors via martial arts. Almost like Bladedancing but through a completely different mechanism.
Mechanical notes
Waiting until 7 for your first ASI and level 8 for extra attack is just untenable on a double martial MC. You're going to suffer a lot while leveling up.
I would go Ancestral Guardian 6 to start. This fleshes out your control kit, establishes an ASI and gets extra attack in a timely manner.
Then I would go Echo Knight 4. Action Surge and a fighting style give you dangerous nova potential alongside unleash incarnation. You sacrifice getting the echo early but I think this build will be much more functional.
I don't have a direction for this build, but if you get past level 10, I think more barb and a new dip in rogue could both be quite good.
Good points on the leveling sequence. Past 10, more barb makes more sense than more fighter, for sure.
I think I would go for dueling fighting style over two-weapon fighting. Keeps you at a good DPS, while making you tankier to support your role as a melee battlefield controller.
Overall really like the concept you're going for. Love the crossover you've found in the flavor of the Echo Knight and Ancestral Guardian. Just a great example of mechanics and flavor going hand in hand.
I think this could lead to some fun character quirks, like you have a propensity to tell longwinded stories about the deeds of your relatives, or you sometimes have a hard time concentrating because your ancestral spirits talk to you in your head
I'm actually working on a similar build though I went the other way
Instead of ancestors I made them alternate reality version of my character To flavor the Barb more toward the Echo Knight theme. With the Echo being the prime one I am most connected to.
Also took Reborn Lineage instead of elf and Dark Gift "Living Shadow" to get things rolling a low level
There is much much more to the back story that gives it a TON of great RP flavor but I think its going to be great
I have a very, very similar build, half-orc EK/Barb- I'm finding it ridiculously effective as both a striker and as a tank/defender. I'll post the link to the discussion, but here are the highlights:
Good luck!
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/60582-echo-knight-whybits-good-and-why-its-not-good?page=12
I would love to see this idea worked up with the Double-bladed scimitar (just about the most 'Elf-y' weapon I know of outside of a bow). I love the look!
Looks interesting.
Not saying you are planning on doing this, but remember that something like Elven Accuracy (which requires the attack roll to be using Dex, Int, Wis or Cha) won't work well with Rage's requirement that the attack roll be Str. So it can work, just no triple advantage, unless you want to forgo some of the benefits of rage. Worse, Reckless Attacks only works with Str, so yeah, just avoid going the Dex route entirely imo.
You are correct on an optimized build. I would have done it that way myself. But I made a background that required the echo right away. I'm playing a Goliath and his echo is his dead twin brother, trapped inside a Ring of Mind Shielding. So he's got his bigger, better, faster, stronger, smarter brother in his head. The echo also has not aged from what his brother looked like before dying. So as he gets older and scarred, the echo looks the same. For RP purposes, this is how I needed it to be. So yeah, I am pretty handicapped right now. It was amazing when I finally got Reckless attack and Rage at lvl 5.
We're doing Tyranny of Dragons, so I'm gonna be handicapped until the end of Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Which sucks but, it's what felt right for the character. I'm going to be pretty BA though in Rise of Tiamat though. And the Echo with Sentinel has been pretty integral to survival. Kept a good number of enemies at bay, away from the Cleric and myself with him. It's a tough row to hoe, but I think it will be worth it in the long run. If he survives.
And for clarification, I'm lvl 5 with 2 in Barb. I was going to do Ancestral at first, but I really like Path of the Giant. So that's my intent.