Well, I mean, if you're doing homebrew at your table then sure, an Archdevil could do that. But if you're gonna go that route, then you might as well go all the way. Go straight to the top - errr, well - to the bottom, rather. Go with Asmodeus!
Just be sure to pronounce his name correctly when you meet him. He's kinda cranky about that. It's not "As-MOE-dee-us". It's "As-moe-DAY-us". Just sing the Falco song "Rock Me Amadeus" to yourself, and add in an s and an o.
If they lose their power, how do they become anything? Can an Archdevil turn someone else into a Lich? Depends on the DM. I think that takes a god, and an Arch Devil isn't one.
Of course, it the Cleric wants to become a Lich, who needs an Arch Devil? Take enough levels in Wizard and do it the old fashioned way.
That’s basically what the cleric does. He offers the souls of many extremely powerful people, in exchange for the knowledge and arcane power to achieve his goal. the tricky part is what he does after gaining access to such power
Given that I cannot find stats for any of the Archdevils, I will concede the point. Usually, they list the stats for anything less than a god. Those don't get them, Archdevils are gods. :-)
Lesser Archdevils of Baator are in Mordenkainen*s Tome. Asmodeus is not one of them as the big boss of Hell.
However, coming back to the OP, I would totally go down the Lich's requirement from the Monster Manual, that the Lich needs to constantly feed on souls to maintain their unliving existence.
So, in a non-evil group, this could get really really messy.
"Can an Archdevil turn a divine caster into a Lich? If so which one would be best for that? I’ve got a story idea where a high level cleric makes a deal for power. Loses their divine gifts, and then uses the power to eventually become a Lich."
Any Archdevil, in fact anything, that has the power to turn someone into a Lich can do so. A player character has the power to do that themselves, they talk about that in the Monster Manual. I have been going about this all wrong. The player doesn't need a higher power, so it doesn't take much. Once they are a Lich, they should assume all the stats and scores, and gain all the powers and limitation. They should be exactly as per the statblock in all ways. That means they are a Non Player Character.
Cool story though. That should make a great bad guy for the players to destroy, especially if they get to keep their gear.
As for which deity to use? Asmodeus would be my pick, that just seems like something he would do. His name does after all translate to "Against the gods"
I’ve got a story idea where a high level cleric makes a deal for power. Loses their divine gifts, and then uses the power to eventually become a Lich.
For an archdemon, Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath For an archdevil, Zariel, Archduke of the First Layer, who is in charge of mustering Hell's armies - Zariel is notorious for pacting with mortals. She gets an additional soldier for eternity, you get 1 mortal lifetime of increased power. Good deal for her.
Lesser Archdevils of Baator are in Mordenkainen*s Tome. Asmodeus is not one of them as the big boss of Hell.
However, coming back to the OP, I would totally go down the Lich's requirement from the Monster Manual, that the Lich needs to constantly feed on souls to maintain their unliving existence.
So, in a non-evil group, this could get really really messy.
Part time job as the local city executioner. As a cleric you offer up your services to offer last rites and to properly dispose of the bodies to stop that terrible necromancy scourge. Then just wear a hood and mask at all times (it's part of the vows of the religion if they ask) What the party doesn't know, won't hurt them until they get full lich mode turning on them.
I would definitely let an arch devil teach a divine caster how to turn itself into a lich. And I would have the arch devil conveniently forget to mention that the lich requires the Imprisonment spell to survive and the only way to cast that spell is by having the arch devil cast it.
I would customize the spell list to have it be all cleric spells instead of arcane spells too.
I would definitely let an arch devil teach a divine caster how to turn itself into a lich. And I would have the arch devil conveniently forget to mention that the lich requires the Imprisonment spell to survive and the only way to cast that spell is by having the arch devil cast it.
I would customize the spell list to have it be all cleric spells instead of arcane spells too.
And the archdevil would probably blackmail the lich in some way.
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The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bardof the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules.Sig.Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
I dunno if a Devil would bother buffing a fallen cleric into a lich. I'm sure they could, and your game world is your game world, but similar fall from grace circumstances are exactly what set in motions the events of Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus
Thavius Kreeg, Cleric of Torm was the the de facto theocratic ruler of Elturel, the city state with dominion largely through military force over Elturgard. Decades ago, Elturel's protectorate was plagued by undead. Kreeg made a pact with Zariel receiving "protection" for his lands in exchange for the souls of his city. A "companion" in the form of what looked like a permanent mini-sun (actually an enslaved solar or plantar or some such high up celestial) was installed over Elturel which radiantly rid Elturgard of its undead problems. This wasn't the only aspect of Kreeg's dealings with Zariel, there were some curious disappearances of political rivals and their retinues and the like, so the divine connection Kreeg had with Torm was severed. When Elturel fell into the hells 50 years later per the contract, Kreeg may die at the module's adventurers or outraged survivors' hands. When Kreeg's soul arrives in Hell, it becomes an Amnizu.
So the question becomes, if your game is consistent with the Infernal lore in sources like Mord's or Descent into Avernus, Lichdom seems a bigger boon to the fallen Cleric than what happened to someone who hypocritically ran a "holy empire" for decades only to deliver the souls of that empire's capital city to the Nine Hells.
I'm not sure which Archdevil may specialize in corrupting Clerics.
Zariel had her own vindictive reasons for intervening in Elturel unique to that situation.
Mephistopheles is the Archdevil who specializes in damning the souls of arcane magic users, so would likely the the one who knows the most about Lichdom, I want to say there's probably another in Mord's Tome of Foes more invested in corrupting Clerics. I'd do a read through of that and see if there's a ArchDevil or DemonLord particularly associated with Blaspheme. Or just make one up. Easier to do on the Demon side as there's just more space in the Abyss and less hierarchy.
EDIT: if you want to stick with Devils in present lore, I think you're best option would be Baazebul, with guides to Lichdom found in the libraries of Maladomini. Baazebul specializes in courting souls who wish to regain lost status. So if the Cleric had a fall, Lichdom could be a route to power.
Glasya would be another interesting option too as "she" tries to play against the rules, and a Cleric becoming a Lich would be the right sort of boundary pushing.
yeah, I have a homebrew work around for that. Lich still feeds off souls, but has a more "humane" way of getting what he needs to maintain his form and sanity. Thinking of having the Lich beat the tar out of which ever archdevil they made the deal with. Figure that's a good way to explain why the arch devil isn't pulling the strings behind the scenes, but having made the deal in the first place is a good way to explain how this guy suddenly learned and mastered the arcane (a feat most take decades if not centuries to accomplish).
Well, I mean, if you're doing homebrew at your table then sure, an Archdevil could do that. But if you're gonna go that route, then you might as well go all the way. Go straight to the top - errr, well - to the bottom, rather. Go with Asmodeus!
Just be sure to pronounce his name correctly when you meet him. He's kinda cranky about that. It's not "As-MOE-dee-us". It's "As-moe-DAY-us". Just sing the Falco song "Rock Me Amadeus" to yourself, and add in an s and an o.
That’s just great. I’m going to be sitting at my desk all day singing Rock Me Asmodeus. Sigh. 🤣
at no point did i say they were hiding there phylactery. I said they needed the devil to fast track the knowledge on how to become an arcane spell caster (since they were a divine caster before). Also it's not like they get the info and then turn around and beat the Archdevil up, they fulfil their contract and then spend several decades amassing the power needed to confront and defeat such a being.
i fail to see why they would need to lose the strength and experiences that lead them to being such a powerful person. As to why they seek out the Archdevil, why they need this power? Simple enough, their divine power is gone/vastly diminished but they know that simple strength of arms will not win them the war they are fighting. So they need a new source of power, one that is whole-ly theirs. A power that they alone control, not one borrowed from a higher being who can simply take it back/cut the connection. Sure in a time of peace, they could read the spell books, learn the ways of arcane casting learn how to bend the world to their command. But these are not times of peace, and the enemy will not cease their crusade to give the cleric time to learn. So he must find a way to gain this knowledge NOW, find a way to continue fighting, before the world is consumed and the souls of all bound in darkness.
As to why they have chosen an Archdevil. Two simple reasons; One: devil's may be evil, but they abide by their contracts. You can trust that a devil will try to screw you over, they will hide some hidden clause within the fine print, they will twist the words till they scream and bleed, but they won't break their word to do so. For they know that if they do, the contract is forfeit. You retain the what ever "benefits" you asked for, and they lose their ability to claim payment. Two: Who better to seek aid from, in defeating an Archdevil, then another Archdevil. Simply point out how the balance of power could be shifted if one of their rivals were to say "gain uncontested control" of an entire material plane of existence and all the souls that inhabit it. Throw in some added bonuses to tempt the devil, the legendary soul of a hero is worth quite a lot... but what if I could offer you more then just my soul? What if i could offer you the souls of hundreds, no THOUSANDS of powerful warriors? Ask for the knowledge and a special weapon, designed to your specifics, a weapon with the unique ability to harvest the souls of those who die in it's proximity. Tempt the Archdevil with a deal that sounds too good to pass up, a deal "made in desperation". Perhaps the Archdevil fails to notice that you added your own clause to the contract, a means to "trade" one soul for others of greater value. OR perhaps he totally sees what you did, but doesn't think to question why?
"I’ve got a story idea where a high level cleric makes a deal for power. Loses their divine gifts, and then uses the power to eventually become a Lich." You want to tell me that in a desperate time of war, they wouldn't need a high level cleric around? Why exactly does that cleric want more power? You say that his plan counts on him outsmarting an Archdevil and forcing them into playing by the letter of the law, knowing that they won't, and they couldn't think of a better way to get more power than becoming one of the undead? Those are things Clerics specialize in destroying you know. A high level cleric who's all that smart ought to be wise enough to know a better way to power than becoming something they know all the weaknesses of, like a Lich.
I tried a few times to figure out what the stats for a god would be, and I admit, I'm not smart enough. So with this in mind, what class is an Archdevil? They grant powers. That makes them sort of like a Cleric in reverse, so they pretty much have to have Cleric levels, they are level 20, they have thousands of years of experience in contract law, the Cleric has what? 50? The Archdevil is going to have a Wisdom of 30, and they've got 20 or so, their intelligence is probably a 25 at minimum, and they're still at 20 or so. They are Telepathic , they can be too, but do they want to make it even easier for them to read their mind? Do they really expect to be able to outsmart an Archdevil? Any half competent Archdevil with the power to turn them into a Lich would do so happily, and keep them as a servant forever.
The cleric would love nothing more then to remain a cleric, save lives where he can, and take the lives of those that need taking. But his god can't/won't provide him the divine gifts, he has earned over decades of harsh battles and devote service. Nor is he the only divine caster who is finding that their god's power sometimes simply isn't there when they need it. Those who are not burdened by this curse are finding themselves overwhelmed. The work to heal the wounded, and cure the sick, that use to be split among countless dozens, is slowly but surely falling into the laps of fewer and fewer people. As time passes, those who can still cast spells, are individuals with access to less and less power/divine gifts. The tide is turning against the cleric and his people, and soon it will be too late. So he does what he must, he knows his god would not approve, but something has to be done... And he's sure his god will understand, will forgive him. If all goes according to plan, maybe his god will even reward him at the end of all this. I mean he's about to trick an Archdevil into helping mortals stop another Archdevil....
As to why become a Lich? If you have a better idea for how the "cleric" could become immune to necrotic damage, live "forever", and spit in the eye of a god who especially HATES the undead, i'm all ears. If you have a suggestion for a being that could impart the secrets of the arcane (and do so in a VERY limited time frame) i'd be open to using that. But as it stands, a deal with a devil seems the fastest way to get the results he needs. Also such a being is most likely going to want something; and wouldn't you know it, but the biggest (most powerful) thing i have to offer is a soul pact tied to MANY powerful individuals. Individuals who's souls are most likely to end up in some OTHER Archdevil's hands if my offer is declined.
One other thing to think about, is that one of the best things about becoming a lich.... it buys you time, so much lovely LOVELY time. Time to think, time to plot, time to figure out "work arounds" to your traditional weaknesses. Time to build an empire, time to revive "lost" ancient magics, time to find relics thought erased from time and space.... time to construct the device you will use to get revenge on those who wronged you, and TIME TO ASCEND INTO GODHOOD.
You have a lot invested in the story. It seems that in the setting, the gods themselves are weaker than Archdevils and are losing the fight. It's a pretty tragic story, and I can't see a better way to power than dying. Which is pretty much what happens, the coming back part is up to the Archdevil, and they aren't likely to want the hero of the story for a rival.
So tell me, is this something you mean to DM? It's a total and utter railroad. If you're going to be a player, is this ok with the DM? It pretty much comes out like a movie or a book rather than a game.
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And if so which one would be best for that?
I’ve got a story idea where a high level cleric makes a deal for power. Loses their divine gifts, and then uses the power to eventually become a Lich.
Well, I mean, if you're doing homebrew at your table then sure, an Archdevil could do that. But if you're gonna go that route, then you might as well go all the way. Go straight to the top - errr, well - to the bottom, rather. Go with Asmodeus!
Just be sure to pronounce his name correctly when you meet him. He's kinda cranky about that. It's not "As-MOE-dee-us". It's "As-moe-DAY-us". Just sing the Falco song "Rock Me Amadeus" to yourself, and add in an s and an o.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
If they lose their power, how do they become anything? Can an Archdevil turn someone else into a Lich? Depends on the DM. I think that takes a god, and an Arch Devil isn't one.
Of course, it the Cleric wants to become a Lich, who needs an Arch Devil? Take enough levels in Wizard and do it the old fashioned way.
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That’s basically what the cleric does. He offers the souls of many extremely powerful people, in exchange for the knowledge and arcane power to achieve his goal. the tricky part is what he does after gaining access to such power
Can't really give someone else's soul to anyone. The go back to their home plane. It's messing in the territory of gods, and they take poorly to that.
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Given that I cannot find stats for any of the Archdevils, I will concede the point. Usually, they list the stats for anything less than a god. Those don't get them, Archdevils are gods. :-)
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Lesser Archdevils of Baator are in Mordenkainen*s Tome. Asmodeus is not one of them as the big boss of Hell.
However, coming back to the OP, I would totally go down the Lich's requirement from the Monster Manual, that the Lich needs to constantly feed on souls to maintain their unliving existence.
So, in a non-evil group, this could get really really messy.
"Can an Archdevil turn a divine caster into a Lich? If so which one would be best for that? I’ve got a story idea where a high level cleric makes a deal for power. Loses their divine gifts, and then uses the power to eventually become a Lich."
Any Archdevil, in fact anything, that has the power to turn someone into a Lich can do so. A player character has the power to do that themselves, they talk about that in the Monster Manual. I have been going about this all wrong. The player doesn't need a higher power, so it doesn't take much. Once they are a Lich, they should assume all the stats and scores, and gain all the powers and limitation. They should be exactly as per the statblock in all ways. That means they are a Non Player Character.
Cool story though. That should make a great bad guy for the players to destroy, especially if they get to keep their gear.
As for which deity to use? Asmodeus would be my pick, that just seems like something he would do. His name does after all translate to "Against the gods"
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For an archdemon, Orcus, Demon Prince of Undeath For an archdevil, Zariel, Archduke of the First Layer, who is in charge of mustering Hell's armies - Zariel is notorious for pacting with mortals. She gets an additional soldier for eternity, you get 1 mortal lifetime of increased power. Good deal for her.
Part time job as the local city executioner. As a cleric you offer up your services to offer last rites and to properly dispose of the bodies to stop that terrible necromancy scourge. Then just wear a hood and mask at all times (it's part of the vows of the religion if they ask) What the party doesn't know, won't hurt them until they get full lich mode turning on them.
I would definitely let an arch devil teach a divine caster how to turn itself into a lich. And I would have the arch devil conveniently forget to mention that the lich requires the Imprisonment spell to survive and the only way to cast that spell is by having the arch devil cast it.
I would customize the spell list to have it be all cleric spells instead of arcane spells too.
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And the archdevil would probably blackmail the lich in some way.
The Circle of Hedgehogs Druid Beholder/Animated Armor Level -20 Bard of the OIADSB Cult, here are our rules. Sig. Also a sauce council member, but it's been dead for a while.
I dunno if a Devil would bother buffing a fallen cleric into a lich. I'm sure they could, and your game world is your game world, but similar fall from grace circumstances are exactly what set in motions the events of Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus
Thavius Kreeg, Cleric of Torm was the the de facto theocratic ruler of Elturel, the city state with dominion largely through military force over Elturgard. Decades ago, Elturel's protectorate was plagued by undead. Kreeg made a pact with Zariel receiving "protection" for his lands in exchange for the souls of his city. A "companion" in the form of what looked like a permanent mini-sun (actually an enslaved solar or plantar or some such high up celestial) was installed over Elturel which radiantly rid Elturgard of its undead problems. This wasn't the only aspect of Kreeg's dealings with Zariel, there were some curious disappearances of political rivals and their retinues and the like, so the divine connection Kreeg had with Torm was severed. When Elturel fell into the hells 50 years later per the contract, Kreeg may die at the module's adventurers or outraged survivors' hands. When Kreeg's soul arrives in Hell, it becomes an Amnizu.
So the question becomes, if your game is consistent with the Infernal lore in sources like Mord's or Descent into Avernus, Lichdom seems a bigger boon to the fallen Cleric than what happened to someone who hypocritically ran a "holy empire" for decades only to deliver the souls of that empire's capital city to the Nine Hells.
I'm not sure which Archdevil may specialize in corrupting Clerics.
Zariel had her own vindictive reasons for intervening in Elturel unique to that situation.
Mephistopheles is the Archdevil who specializes in damning the souls of arcane magic users, so would likely the the one who knows the most about Lichdom, I want to say there's probably another in Mord's Tome of Foes more invested in corrupting Clerics. I'd do a read through of that and see if there's a ArchDevil or DemonLord particularly associated with Blaspheme. Or just make one up. Easier to do on the Demon side as there's just more space in the Abyss and less hierarchy.
EDIT: if you want to stick with Devils in present lore, I think you're best option would be Baazebul, with guides to Lichdom found in the libraries of Maladomini. Baazebul specializes in courting souls who wish to regain lost status. So if the Cleric had a fall, Lichdom could be a route to power.
Glasya would be another interesting option too as "she" tries to play against the rules, and a Cleric becoming a Lich would be the right sort of boundary pushing.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
yeah, I have a homebrew work around for that. Lich still feeds off souls, but has a more "humane" way of getting what he needs to maintain his form and sanity. Thinking of having the Lich beat the tar out of which ever archdevil they made the deal with. Figure that's a good way to explain why the arch devil isn't pulling the strings behind the scenes, but having made the deal in the first place is a good way to explain how this guy suddenly learned and mastered the arcane (a feat most take decades if not centuries to accomplish).
That’s just great. I’m going to be sitting at my desk all day singing Rock Me Asmodeus. Sigh. 🤣
at no point did i say they were hiding there phylactery. I said they needed the devil to fast track the knowledge on how to become an arcane spell caster (since they were a divine caster before). Also it's not like they get the info and then turn around and beat the Archdevil up, they fulfil their contract and then spend several decades amassing the power needed to confront and defeat such a being.
i fail to see why they would need to lose the strength and experiences that lead them to being such a powerful person. As to why they seek out the Archdevil, why they need this power? Simple enough, their divine power is gone/vastly diminished but they know that simple strength of arms will not win them the war they are fighting. So they need a new source of power, one that is whole-ly theirs. A power that they alone control, not one borrowed from a higher being who can simply take it back/cut the connection. Sure in a time of peace, they could read the spell books, learn the ways of arcane casting learn how to bend the world to their command. But these are not times of peace, and the enemy will not cease their crusade to give the cleric time to learn. So he must find a way to gain this knowledge NOW, find a way to continue fighting, before the world is consumed and the souls of all bound in darkness.
As to why they have chosen an Archdevil. Two simple reasons; One: devil's may be evil, but they abide by their contracts. You can trust that a devil will try to screw you over, they will hide some hidden clause within the fine print, they will twist the words till they scream and bleed, but they won't break their word to do so. For they know that if they do, the contract is forfeit. You retain the what ever "benefits" you asked for, and they lose their ability to claim payment. Two: Who better to seek aid from, in defeating an Archdevil, then another Archdevil. Simply point out how the balance of power could be shifted if one of their rivals were to say "gain uncontested control" of an entire material plane of existence and all the souls that inhabit it. Throw in some added bonuses to tempt the devil, the legendary soul of a hero is worth quite a lot... but what if I could offer you more then just my soul? What if i could offer you the souls of hundreds, no THOUSANDS of powerful warriors? Ask for the knowledge and a special weapon, designed to your specifics, a weapon with the unique ability to harvest the souls of those who die in it's proximity. Tempt the Archdevil with a deal that sounds too good to pass up, a deal "made in desperation". Perhaps the Archdevil fails to notice that you added your own clause to the contract, a means to "trade" one soul for others of greater value. OR perhaps he totally sees what you did, but doesn't think to question why?
"I’ve got a story idea where a high level cleric makes a deal for power. Loses their divine gifts, and then uses the power to eventually become a Lich." You want to tell me that in a desperate time of war, they wouldn't need a high level cleric around? Why exactly does that cleric want more power? You say that his plan counts on him outsmarting an Archdevil and forcing them into playing by the letter of the law, knowing that they won't, and they couldn't think of a better way to get more power than becoming one of the undead? Those are things Clerics specialize in destroying you know. A high level cleric who's all that smart ought to be wise enough to know a better way to power than becoming something they know all the weaknesses of, like a Lich.
I tried a few times to figure out what the stats for a god would be, and I admit, I'm not smart enough. So with this in mind, what class is an Archdevil? They grant powers. That makes them sort of like a Cleric in reverse, so they pretty much have to have Cleric levels, they are level 20, they have thousands of years of experience in contract law, the Cleric has what? 50? The Archdevil is going to have a Wisdom of 30, and they've got 20 or so, their intelligence is probably a 25 at minimum, and they're still at 20 or so. They are Telepathic , they can be too, but do they want to make it even easier for them to read their mind? Do they really expect to be able to outsmart an Archdevil? Any half competent Archdevil with the power to turn them into a Lich would do so happily, and keep them as a servant forever.
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The cleric would love nothing more then to remain a cleric, save lives where he can, and take the lives of those that need taking. But his god can't/won't provide him the divine gifts, he has earned over decades of harsh battles and devote service. Nor is he the only divine caster who is finding that their god's power sometimes simply isn't there when they need it. Those who are not burdened by this curse are finding themselves overwhelmed. The work to heal the wounded, and cure the sick, that use to be split among countless dozens, is slowly but surely falling into the laps of fewer and fewer people. As time passes, those who can still cast spells, are individuals with access to less and less power/divine gifts. The tide is turning against the cleric and his people, and soon it will be too late. So he does what he must, he knows his god would not approve, but something has to be done... And he's sure his god will understand, will forgive him. If all goes according to plan, maybe his god will even reward him at the end of all this. I mean he's about to trick an Archdevil into helping mortals stop another Archdevil....
As to why become a Lich? If you have a better idea for how the "cleric" could become immune to necrotic damage, live "forever", and spit in the eye of a god who especially HATES the undead, i'm all ears. If you have a suggestion for a being that could impart the secrets of the arcane (and do so in a VERY limited time frame) i'd be open to using that. But as it stands, a deal with a devil seems the fastest way to get the results he needs. Also such a being is most likely going to want something; and wouldn't you know it, but the biggest (most powerful) thing i have to offer is a soul pact tied to MANY powerful individuals. Individuals who's souls are most likely to end up in some OTHER Archdevil's hands if my offer is declined.
One other thing to think about, is that one of the best things about becoming a lich.... it buys you time, so much lovely LOVELY time. Time to think, time to plot, time to figure out "work arounds" to your traditional weaknesses. Time to build an empire, time to revive "lost" ancient magics, time to find relics thought erased from time and space.... time to construct the device you will use to get revenge on those who wronged you, and TIME TO ASCEND INTO GODHOOD.
You have a lot invested in the story. It seems that in the setting, the gods themselves are weaker than Archdevils and are losing the fight. It's a pretty tragic story, and I can't see a better way to power than dying. Which is pretty much what happens, the coming back part is up to the Archdevil, and they aren't likely to want the hero of the story for a rival.
So tell me, is this something you mean to DM? It's a total and utter railroad. If you're going to be a player, is this ok with the DM? It pretty much comes out like a movie or a book rather than a game.
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