Just read the new Vecna page here on D&DBeyond, and it occurred to me there was no mention of his soul? Where is it? It's notable that it's not mentioned.
So, I've been reading up a lot. I heard about not using the "p" word, which makes sense. Heck, I thought it meant some ancient jar, lol. Anyho', I for one don't want to loose the ole' trope of a demon or devil having its soul trapped into a jar. And Vecna, as a lich, should retain this. imho. Call it a soul vessel. Canopic jar? Or heck, it could be put into anything. I found a Reddit thread where the poster speculated his soul could be in the Book of Vile Darkness. Which is a very cool idea! Some speculated it might be that Afterthought dagger. Hm!
As far as I know (about Vecna and his history throughout D&D publications), since he became a lich his soul must be kept somewhere and that it was always up to the DM where it is. Pretty sure no publication ever specified where it is, only that his soul is contained in some object somewhere in the multiverse.
So, now that we have a brand new 5e Vecna... where is it? Does it even exist in this new version? Thoughts? No prayers please, don't want a giant rotting citadel to show up, mmk? :)
Just read the new Vecna page here on D&DBeyond, and it occurred to me there was no mention of his soul? Where is it? It's notable that it's not mentioned.
So, I've been reading up a lot. I heard about not using the "p" word, which makes sense. Heck, I thought it meant some ancient jar, lol. Anyho', I for one don't want to loose the ole' trope of a demon or devil having its soul trapped into a jar. And Vecna, as a lich, should retain this. imho. Call it a soul vessel. Canopic jar? Or heck, it could be put into anything. I found a Reddit thread where the poster speculated his soul could be in the Book of Vile Darkness. Which is a very cool idea! Some speculated it might be that Afterthought dagger. Hm!
As far as I know (about Vecna and his history throughout D&D publications), since he became a lich his soul must be kept somewhere and that it was always up to the DM where it is. Pretty sure no publication ever specified where it is, only that his soul is contained in some object somewhere in the multiverse.
So, now that we have a brand new 5e Vecna... where is it? Does it even exist in this new version? Thoughts? No prayers please, don't want a giant rotting citadel to show up, mmk? :)
I'm not even sure if the Vecna Dossier is official content. It was published by WOTC (since they own DDB now), but I haven't heard of it anywhere else but here, and here I haven't heard anything about it being official or along the lines of stuff like the M:TG Planeswalker content.
You are correct that his 5E statblock has no phylactery - he can't be stopped from ressing, it just happens. You could homebrew him to have one, but as-written he respawns within a distance of where he was slain, not within a distance of any given object. This suggests his soul simply isn't trapped anywhere in particular - like for any other undead, his "soul" (such as it is) resides within his body, as he has no rules saying otherwise. It also means he's relatively easy to incarcerate, because he can't use his respawn to get more than 100 miles away. In fact, unlike a standard lich, he also can't use his respawn to plane shift - he always respawns on the plane he was slain on, so if you can get him into a 100-mile diameter inescapable prison with magic on it to stop the plane shift spell, he genuinely won't be able to get out, whereas a normal lich can use their res mechanic to bypass basically all possible magics that stop planar travel because all of them only stop things that exist and a dead lich doesn't exist until it does.
Just read the new Vecna page here on D&DBeyond, and it occurred to me there was no mention of his soul? Where is it? It's notable that it's not mentioned.
So, I've been reading up a lot. I heard about not using the "p" word, which makes sense. Heck, I thought it meant some ancient jar, lol. Anyho', I for one don't want to loose the ole' trope of a demon or devil having its soul trapped into a jar. And Vecna, as a lich, should retain this. imho. Call it a soul vessel. Canopic jar? Or heck, it could be put into anything. I found a Reddit thread where the poster speculated his soul could be in the Book of Vile Darkness. Which is a very cool idea! Some speculated it might be that Afterthought dagger. Hm!
As far as I know (about Vecna and his history throughout D&D publications), since he became a lich his soul must be kept somewhere and that it was always up to the DM where it is. Pretty sure no publication ever specified where it is, only that his soul is contained in some object somewhere in the multiverse.
So, now that we have a brand new 5e Vecna... where is it? Does it even exist in this new version? Thoughts? No prayers please, don't want a giant rotting citadel to show up, mmk? :)
I put some thought into some of it.
Creatures in 5e are defined as having a soul, and with Vecna not having one it makes him immune to things like True Resurrection. All playable races in published material has a soul, and 90+% of every being you will encounter has one.
We only have two named Archliches in 5e, Acererak and Vecna. Neither have their soul jars listed anywhere. So either they are on random demiplanes only they can access or they are just extraordinarily well hidden.
Archlich is now being taken back to being an evil named term, since in 4th edition it was used to denote powerful undead who were good in nature.
Just read the new Vecna page here on D&DBeyond, and it occurred to me there was no mention of his soul? Where is it? It's notable that it's not mentioned.
So, I've been reading up a lot. I heard about not using the "p" word, which makes sense. Heck, I thought it meant some ancient jar, lol. Anyho', I for one don't want to loose the ole' trope of a demon or devil having its soul trapped into a jar. And Vecna, as a lich, should retain this. imho. Call it a soul vessel. Canopic jar? Or heck, it could be put into anything. I found a Reddit thread where the poster speculated his soul could be in the Book of Vile Darkness. Which is a very cool idea! Some speculated it might be that Afterthought dagger. Hm!
As far as I know (about Vecna and his history throughout D&D publications), since he became a lich his soul must be kept somewhere and that it was always up to the DM where it is. Pretty sure no publication ever specified where it is, only that his soul is contained in some object somewhere in the multiverse.
So, now that we have a brand new 5e Vecna... where is it? Does it even exist in this new version? Thoughts? No prayers please, don't want a giant rotting citadel to show up, mmk? :)
I'm not even sure if the Vecna Dossier is official content. It was published by WOTC (since they own DDB now), but I haven't heard of it anywhere else but here, and here I haven't heard anything about it being official or along the lines of stuff like the M:TG Planeswalker content.
You are correct that his 5E statblock has no phylactery - he can't be stopped from ressing, it just happens. You could homebrew him to have one, but as-written he respawns within a distance of where he was slain, not within a distance of any given object. This suggests his soul simply isn't trapped anywhere in particular - like for any other undead, his "soul" (such as it is) resides within his body, as he has no rules saying otherwise. It also means he's relatively easy to incarcerate, because he can't use his respawn to get more than 100 miles away. In fact, unlike a standard lich, he also can't use his respawn to plane shift - he always respawns on the plane he was slain on, so if you can get him into a 100-mile diameter inescapable prison with magic on it to stop the plane shift spell, he genuinely won't be able to get out, whereas a normal lich can use their res mechanic to bypass basically all possible magics that stop planar travel because all of them only stop things that exist and a dead lich doesn't exist until it does.
Yes, "it just happens"; the fact he just comes back after 1D100, whatevhz, is really hand-wavy by the designer, I feel. And, btw, wow, you came up with a way to trap him anyho'? Nicely done!
And thx Spideycloned. Bringing up Acererak is essential. Didn't the original Tomb of Horrors have his 'soul jar' somewhere in the tomb?
Vecna's story is complicated by his stint as a deity during 3.5e and 4e... His existence as a statted out lich in 5e begs a lot of questions about continuity. In this instance, I don't think continuity is really the important part. The lack of it creates space for DMs to be inventive. This is one question we get to answer for ourselves at our own tables. I do like the idea that he must have a soul jar if he's a statted lich. I'd suggest that as God of Secrets he might have been able to find a very good hiding place before he was thrust back into the prime. A DM could create an enjoyable campaign around discovering that hiding place and the reason for Vecna's no longer divine nature.
Vecna's story is complicated by his stint as a deity during 3.5e and 4e... His existence as a statted out lich in 5e begs a lot of questions about continuity. In this instance, I don't think continuity is really the important part. The lack of it creates space for DMs to be inventive. This is one question we get to answer for ourselves at our own tables. I do like the idea that he must have a soul jar if he's a statted lich. I'd suggest that as God of Secrets he might have been able to find a very good hiding place before he was thrust back into the prime. A DM could create an enjoyable campaign around discovering that hiding place and the reason for Vecna's no longer divine nature.
Vecna is still a god in 5E. These stats are from his past, before Kas's betrayal.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Vecna's story is complicated by his stint as a deity during 3.5e and 4e... His existence as a statted out lich in 5e begs a lot of questions about continuity. In this instance, I don't think continuity is really the important part. The lack of it creates space for DMs to be inventive. This is one question we get to answer for ourselves at our own tables. I do like the idea that he must have a soul jar if he's a statted lich. I'd suggest that as God of Secrets he might have been able to find a very good hiding place before he was thrust back into the prime. A DM could create an enjoyable campaign around discovering that hiding place and the reason for Vecna's no longer divine nature.
Vecna is still a god in 5E. These stats are from his past, before Kas's betrayal.
I find it difficult to reconcile his having a stat block as a lich with the idea that he is still a divinity... and I'm averse to the idea of prologue as story in a game which is about how the characters' actions can change outcomes. Your mileage may vary.
Vecna's story is complicated by his stint as a deity during 3.5e and 4e... His existence as a statted out lich in 5e begs a lot of questions about continuity. In this instance, I don't think continuity is really the important part. The lack of it creates space for DMs to be inventive. This is one question we get to answer for ourselves at our own tables. I do like the idea that he must have a soul jar if he's a statted lich. I'd suggest that as God of Secrets he might have been able to find a very good hiding place before he was thrust back into the prime. A DM could create an enjoyable campaign around discovering that hiding place and the reason for Vecna's no longer divine nature.
Vecna is still a god in 5E. These stats are from his past, before Kas's betrayal.
I find it difficult to reconcile his having a stat block as a lich with the idea that he is still a divinity... and I'm averse to the idea of prologue as story in a game which is about how the characters' actions can change outcomes. Your mileage may vary.
Can you reconcile the concept that there was a time before he was a god? When he was just an uber-powerful lich? And that the printed stat block is from then?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Vecna's story is complicated by his stint as a deity during 3.5e and 4e... His existence as a statted out lich in 5e begs a lot of questions about continuity. In this instance, I don't think continuity is really the important part. The lack of it creates space for DMs to be inventive. This is one question we get to answer for ourselves at our own tables. I do like the idea that he must have a soul jar if he's a statted lich. I'd suggest that as God of Secrets he might have been able to find a very good hiding place before he was thrust back into the prime. A DM could create an enjoyable campaign around discovering that hiding place and the reason for Vecna's no longer divine nature.
Vecna is still a god in 5E. These stats are from his past, before Kas's betrayal.
I find it difficult to reconcile his having a stat block as a lich with the idea that he is still a divinity... and I'm averse to the idea of prologue as story in a game which is about how the characters' actions can change outcomes. Your mileage may vary.
Can you reconcile the concept that there was a time before he was a god? When he was just an uber-powerful lich? And that the printed stat block is from then?
But those stories were played out in the 70s and 80s... We should be telling new stories relevant to today. Shouldn't we? Like, I'm not trying to start an argument. I think an aesthetic of trying for something original is a good one. It suggests to me grappling with the continuity snarl that Vecna has become in the ways I described. I'm not proposing that I succeed any more than others. Other people are free to play the game any way they like. I'm sure I could have fun in a Vecna prequel story--I just don't want to tell one.
But those stories were played out in the 70s and 80s... We should be telling new stories relevant to today. Shouldn't we? Like, I'm not trying to start an argument. I think an aesthetic of trying for something original is a good one. It suggests to me grappling with the continuity snarl that Vecna has become in the ways I described. I'm not proposing that I succeed any more than others. Other people are free to play the game any way they like. I'm sure I could have fun in a Vecna prequel story--I just don't want to tell one.
There is no one D&D continuity. Even the official worlds' continuities are, AFAIK, not really consistent. They printed Vecna as a monster because they thought people would want to have their players fight Vecna. I believe it's partly a Stranger Things tie-in. You don't have to if you don't want to.
As for the question of where Vecna's soul is: it's wherever the DM wants to put it so the players can kill him.
eapiv, I bet your an older player like me who just naturally took each new module, etc. about Vecna to be an ongoing story. Hey, who wouldn't? Thanks for bringing up the inconsistency of this new stat block for Vecna, in an "earlier" form. I tend to side with your reasoning. After all, Vecna is a lich, not a time lord. And if he were a god this stat block makes little sense.
if i had to guess it would be in his hand or eye, and since the hand & eye is an artifact, it can't be destroyed.
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Proud member of the spider guild.
i Play Ursula, Ariadne, Bolehs, Uhluhtc and Lizagnazeialqi in the tavern at the end of the world.
spiders are absolutely wonderful works of nature and if you say otherwise i shall feast tonight.
"Those who fight with Swords are Fools. those who fight with Bows are Cowards. You, My friend, Seem to be Both a Coward and A Fool." -Wilbur, Archmage of the Sunset sea addressing a Warrior.
The most obvious answer would be that he's made the original Book of Vile Darkness into his phylactery. As an artifact with a near-impossible weakness, it's a great choice. One could argue that his hand and eye became auxiliary phylacteries akin to Voldemort's horcruxes.
The most obvious answer would be that he's made the original Book of Vile Darkness into his phylactery. As an artifact with a near-impossible weakness, it's a great choice. One could argue that his hand and eye became auxiliary phylacteries akin to Voldemort's horcruxes.
Yes, this mirrors what I'd read on a Reddit thread. It's a very good choice considering the books history and it being created by Vecna. Even before he became a lich. And especially, the fact the book is basically impossible to actually destroy. So, there's that. :D
Undying. If Vecna is slain, his soul refuses to accept its fate and lives on as a disembodied spirit that fashions a new body for itself after 1d100 years.
His soul isn't in a phylactery, it is right there with his body and refuses to move on. It's not in the book of vile darkness. It's not in the famous eye or hand. If his soul was tied to anything other than his body at the time of the arch lich stat block, then the default upon body death would be for it to move to that anchoring object. But that movement isn't the default - the default for his soul is to move on to the fate after death, which the soul refuses. As an arch lich, he has advanced beyond the need for a physical phylactery - his soul is strong enough to stand against the force of death by itself, without the assistance that the inferior normal liches require.
I have always assumed his soul was in a phylactery but he had a deal with a devil to hide and protect it one another plane. One of the hells maybe.
The devil just wants him 'alive' and working those oh so evil deeds. No real pact its just that Vecna is powerful enough to do enough to make the devil happy.
All his missing body parts are always trying to influence their new owner in order to recreate the whole body.
If you could become more powerful than Vecna then that Devil might just make a deal with you also. Maybe even dropping Vecna and picking you up.
Then again Vecna is a pretty jealous creature so who knows, get powerful enough and he might just hunt you down also.
Vecna's biggest jam is secrets and lost lore. There's no way that he'd have hidden his soul in some place that any other creature knows about.
my favorite theory is that he has multiple Phylacteries, like his eye & hand. like Voldemort's Horcruxes.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Proud member of the spider guild.
i Play Ursula, Ariadne, Bolehs, Uhluhtc and Lizagnazeialqi in the tavern at the end of the world.
spiders are absolutely wonderful works of nature and if you say otherwise i shall feast tonight.
"Those who fight with Swords are Fools. those who fight with Bows are Cowards. You, My friend, Seem to be Both a Coward and A Fool." -Wilbur, Archmage of the Sunset sea addressing a Warrior.
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Just read the new Vecna page here on D&DBeyond, and it occurred to me there was no mention of his soul? Where is it? It's notable that it's not mentioned.
So, I've been reading up a lot. I heard about not using the "p" word, which makes sense. Heck, I thought it meant some ancient jar, lol. Anyho', I for one don't want to loose the ole' trope of a demon or devil having its soul trapped into a jar. And Vecna, as a lich, should retain this. imho. Call it a soul vessel. Canopic jar? Or heck, it could be put into anything. I found a Reddit thread where the poster speculated his soul could be in the Book of Vile Darkness. Which is a very cool idea! Some speculated it might be that Afterthought dagger. Hm!
As far as I know (about Vecna and his history throughout D&D publications), since he became a lich his soul must be kept somewhere and that it was always up to the DM where it is. Pretty sure no publication ever specified where it is, only that his soul is contained in some object somewhere in the multiverse.
So, now that we have a brand new 5e Vecna... where is it? Does it even exist in this new version? Thoughts? No prayers please, don't want a giant rotting citadel to show up, mmk? :)
I'm not even sure if the Vecna Dossier is official content. It was published by WOTC (since they own DDB now), but I haven't heard of it anywhere else but here, and here I haven't heard anything about it being official or along the lines of stuff like the M:TG Planeswalker content.
You are correct that his 5E statblock has no phylactery - he can't be stopped from ressing, it just happens. You could homebrew him to have one, but as-written he respawns within a distance of where he was slain, not within a distance of any given object. This suggests his soul simply isn't trapped anywhere in particular - like for any other undead, his "soul" (such as it is) resides within his body, as he has no rules saying otherwise. It also means he's relatively easy to incarcerate, because he can't use his respawn to get more than 100 miles away. In fact, unlike a standard lich, he also can't use his respawn to plane shift - he always respawns on the plane he was slain on, so if you can get him into a 100-mile diameter inescapable prison with magic on it to stop the plane shift spell, he genuinely won't be able to get out, whereas a normal lich can use their res mechanic to bypass basically all possible magics that stop planar travel because all of them only stop things that exist and a dead lich doesn't exist until it does.
I put some thought into some of it.
Creatures in 5e are defined as having a soul, and with Vecna not having one it makes him immune to things like True Resurrection. All playable races in published material has a soul, and 90+% of every being you will encounter has one.
We only have two named Archliches in 5e, Acererak and Vecna. Neither have their soul jars listed anywhere. So either they are on random demiplanes only they can access or they are just extraordinarily well hidden.
Archlich is now being taken back to being an evil named term, since in 4th edition it was used to denote powerful undead who were good in nature.
Yes, "it just happens"; the fact he just comes back after 1D100, whatevhz, is really hand-wavy by the designer, I feel. And, btw, wow, you came up with a way to trap him anyho'? Nicely done!
And thx Spideycloned. Bringing up Acererak is essential. Didn't the original Tomb of Horrors have his 'soul jar' somewhere in the tomb?
Vecna's story is complicated by his stint as a deity during 3.5e and 4e... His existence as a statted out lich in 5e begs a lot of questions about continuity. In this instance, I don't think continuity is really the important part. The lack of it creates space for DMs to be inventive. This is one question we get to answer for ourselves at our own tables. I do like the idea that he must have a soul jar if he's a statted lich. I'd suggest that as God of Secrets he might have been able to find a very good hiding place before he was thrust back into the prime. A DM could create an enjoyable campaign around discovering that hiding place and the reason for Vecna's no longer divine nature.
Vecna is still a god in 5E. These stats are from his past, before Kas's betrayal.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I find it difficult to reconcile his having a stat block as a lich with the idea that he is still a divinity... and I'm averse to the idea of prologue as story in a game which is about how the characters' actions can change outcomes. Your mileage may vary.
Can you reconcile the concept that there was a time before he was a god? When he was just an uber-powerful lich? And that the printed stat block is from then?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
But those stories were played out in the 70s and 80s... We should be telling new stories relevant to today. Shouldn't we? Like, I'm not trying to start an argument. I think an aesthetic of trying for something original is a good one. It suggests to me grappling with the continuity snarl that Vecna has become in the ways I described. I'm not proposing that I succeed any more than others. Other people are free to play the game any way they like. I'm sure I could have fun in a Vecna prequel story--I just don't want to tell one.
There is no one D&D continuity. Even the official worlds' continuities are, AFAIK, not really consistent. They printed Vecna as a monster because they thought people would want to have their players fight Vecna. I believe it's partly a Stranger Things tie-in. You don't have to if you don't want to.
As for the question of where Vecna's soul is: it's wherever the DM wants to put it so the players can kill him.
In his vinyl record collection between his blues and his jazz.
https://sayeth.itch.io/
^^^
lol... that's where I keep mine too!
eapiv, I bet your an older player like me who just naturally took each new module, etc. about Vecna to be an ongoing story. Hey, who wouldn't? Thanks for bringing up the inconsistency of this new stat block for Vecna, in an "earlier" form. I tend to side with your reasoning. After all, Vecna is a lich, not a time lord. And if he were a god this stat block makes little sense.
if i had to guess it would be in his hand or eye, and since the hand & eye is an artifact, it can't be destroyed.
Proud member of the spider guild.
i Play Ursula, Ariadne, Bolehs, Uhluhtc and Lizagnazeialqi in the tavern at the end of the world.
spiders are absolutely wonderful works of nature and if you say otherwise i shall feast tonight.
"Those who fight with Swords are Fools. those who fight with Bows are Cowards. You, My friend, Seem to be Both a Coward and A Fool." -Wilbur, Archmage of the Sunset sea addressing a Warrior.
The most obvious answer would be that he's made the original Book of Vile Darkness into his phylactery. As an artifact with a near-impossible weakness, it's a great choice. One could argue that his hand and eye became auxiliary phylacteries akin to Voldemort's horcruxes.
Yes, this mirrors what I'd read on a Reddit thread. It's a very good choice considering the books history and it being created by Vecna. Even before he became a lich. And especially, the fact the book is basically impossible to actually destroy. So, there's that. :D
His soul is in him. Nothing special going on.
His soul isn't in a phylactery, it is right there with his body and refuses to move on. It's not in the book of vile darkness. It's not in the famous eye or hand. If his soul was tied to anything other than his body at the time of the arch lich stat block, then the default upon body death would be for it to move to that anchoring object. But that movement isn't the default - the default for his soul is to move on to the fate after death, which the soul refuses. As an arch lich, he has advanced beyond the need for a physical phylactery - his soul is strong enough to stand against the force of death by itself, without the assistance that the inferior normal liches require.
I have always assumed his soul was in a phylactery but he had a deal with a devil to hide and protect it one another plane. One of the hells maybe.
The devil just wants him 'alive' and working those oh so evil deeds. No real pact its just that Vecna is powerful enough to do enough to make the devil happy.
All his missing body parts are always trying to influence their new owner in order to recreate the whole body.
If you could become more powerful than Vecna then that Devil might just make a deal with you also. Maybe even dropping Vecna and picking you up.
Then again Vecna is a pretty jealous creature so who knows, get powerful enough and he might just hunt you down also.
Vecna's biggest jam is secrets and lost lore. There's no way that he'd have hidden his soul in some place that any other creature knows about.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
my favorite theory is that he has multiple Phylacteries, like his eye & hand. like Voldemort's Horcruxes.
Proud member of the spider guild.
i Play Ursula, Ariadne, Bolehs, Uhluhtc and Lizagnazeialqi in the tavern at the end of the world.
spiders are absolutely wonderful works of nature and if you say otherwise i shall feast tonight.
"Those who fight with Swords are Fools. those who fight with Bows are Cowards. You, My friend, Seem to be Both a Coward and A Fool." -Wilbur, Archmage of the Sunset sea addressing a Warrior.