New to DM'ing and I want to make sure I'm "following the conventional rules".
I'm running a low level adventure for some of my kids, and I see that the digital content for the adventure has a DM map and a Player map. My question is - should I provide the entire Player map to the players as they start a quest? Seems to me that it should only be shown in parts, as the progress through the dungeon(s).
New to DM'ing and I want to make sure I'm "following the conventional rules".
I'm running a low level adventure for some of my kids, and I see that the digital content for the adventure has a DM map and a Player map. My question is - should I provide the entire Player map to the players as they start a quest? Seems to me that it should only be shown in parts, as the progress through the dungeon(s).
Any advice is helpful.
TTAIA
Only show them what their characters have seen - it's substantially less fun for everyone involved if you give them information they can't possibly know in-character.
If it were a straight choice, I'd cover what they haven't explored. It helps stop metagaming and them knowing how far they have to go, knowing what are dead ends, etc. If they can see the whole map, they can also see where there are likely to be secret doors - in the DoIP, there is one map that basically tells them that there is a door, since there is a corridor which has no entrances but ends at the wall of a room at either end.
On the other hand, revealing it a bit at a time can take quite a bit of effort. You could import the map to Roll20 which does have a way of revealing the map as they explore...but again, there's effort in setting that up.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks for the quick response. I felt like that was the answer. I'm looking at Foundry VTT, as it seems like a great/flexible tool. Would be really nice if it had the ability to import the adventures/maps to make this a moot point.
We used to let them map things out on their own by hand.
Graph paper and a pencil was pretty much all we needed. The mapper was normally the player whose character was in the middle of the group. (gives them a better chance on a surprise)
After a while the other players will start helping out the mapper and filling in the small details.
Once you see that they have a pretty good map go ahead and show them what they have seen on the provided map.
I did this when we were doing a few games over zoom. I had a word document with the map up, but blocked out areas in separate layers, more or less. So, they went in the front door and there were two doors - 1 to the left and 1 to the right. When they made their decision which way to go, I showed that layer. I found it was easier to do with this particular party as they weren't really keen on trying to remember and/or map. If there is no player map, it takes a little more work to edit the DM map to not show secret doors, etc.
Thanks for the quick response. I felt like that was the answer. I'm looking at Foundry VTT, as it seems like a great/flexible tool. Would be really nice if it had the ability to import the adventures/maps to make this a moot point.
Graph paper and a pencil was pretty much all we needed. The mapper was normally the player whose character was in the middle of the group. (gives them a better chance on a surprise)
=while most of what I do is theater of the mind and it’s upto the players to do any mapping they want I do print out out the player maps (and sometimes copy my homemade maps) then fold them overt hide the parts they haven seen. This also works well when event in the game cause the NPCs to alter the arrangement of a room and the stuff in it to try to give themselves a better setup than the printed layout. When I do that I mark in the new layout freehand and use the map to show them what they see rather than spend 5-10 minutes trying to explain it.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The last group I had were terrible at taking notes and had a poor sense of direction. So I started providing them with the player maps so that they could keep track of where they were. It made things much easier. But as others have said, it depends on your group and what works for everyone.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The problem with #2 is that PCs may be great at mapping but players aren't, or vice versa. Totally agree with #3.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The problem with #2 is that PCs may be great at mapping but players aren't, or vice versa. Totally agree with #3.
If PCs are great but players aren't, you help the player or make it a team effort. If it's the reverse, it's down to them how to rooeplay. TheDM isn't there to police players, really. I found it was a drag without much benefit so we tried it and stopped, but it would probably work for at least some parties.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The problem with #2 is that PCs may be great at mapping but players aren't, or vice versa. Totally agree with #3.
I agree, but remember players and not the PC's and vice versa. So what the players do (and the quality of such work) is not necessarily what the PC is doing (and quality). In my opinion it is the GM's and players job to (try) and enforce that idea, but again groups can be very different in what they do and do not do.
So with your comment I would also say just because the player make accurate maps with icons describing what happened in the room and what the room contained does not mean the PC's remember that.
The same issue can be said of players who keep notes and or record the session for later consumption and analysis as it often is not the same as what the PC would or would not remember.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The problem with #2 is that PCs may be great at mapping but players aren't, or vice versa. Totally agree with #3.
If PCs are great but players aren't, you help the player or make it a team effort. If it's the reverse, it's down to them how to rooeplay. TheDM isn't there to police players, really. I found it was a drag without much benefit so we tried it and stopped, but it would probably work for at least some parties.
I agree partiality. I agree it can be a drag for a GM to keep saying your PC would not know that (but in my opinion (IMO) it is important in certain styles of RPGing and not in others) but it is IMO imperative to provide the player with info/knowledge their PC would have/know that they do not. I also agree that this constant analysis of what the player knows and PC knows can be draining on the GM with all of the other things they have to do during the game.
I would note again that there are lots of ways to RP from video game styles to full immersion and what is expected of GM's and players differs in each.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The problem with #2 is that PCs may be great at mapping but players aren't, or vice versa. Totally agree with #3.
If PCs are great but players aren't, you help the player or make it a team effort. If it's the reverse, it's down to them how to rooeplay. TheDM isn't there to police players, really. I found it was a drag without much benefit so we tried it and stopped, but it would probably work for at least some parties.
I agree partiality. I agree it can be a drag for a GM to keep saying your PC would not know that (but in my opinion (IMO) it is important in certain styles of RPGing and not in others) but it is IMO imperative to provide the player with info/knowledge their PC would have/know that they do not. I also agree that this constant analysis of what the player knows and PC knows can be draining on the GM with all of the other things they have to do during the game.
I would note again that there are lots of ways to RP from video game styles to full immersion and what is expected of GM's and players differs in each.
The drag wasn't really in reference to preventing metagaming - while a DM can alter their style to encourage players to avoid it etc, it's ultimately down to the players to prevent it, not the DM. The drag was more...literal? As the players navigated the dungeon, I'd have to describe with quite fine detail the layout of the room. I'd have to repeat it several times since they'd forget some details while they took an age to draw it. If I was lucky, I'd notice the inevitable mistakes ("I said it turned north, not south") before they caused chaos later on. Of course,money don't know which directions the dungeon extended into, so we had a slightly better than 1 in 4 chance of even having a hope of fitting it all in, which wouod cause problems when we ran out of space. This all slowed the pace of the game down tremendously - what could be revealed in a few seconds or drawn by me in 5 minutes absorbed easily half an hour of the game as they tried to transcribe what I described.
That's not to say that it's hopeless. I'm sure it's worth the sacrifice and with players who have better memories and listened more carefully, you could cut that lost time down to more manageable levels. But for us, it really dragged things out and slowed down the pace - significantly eating into time that could have been better spent developing characters, exploring plots or just plain beheading a few Goblins.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks I see now what you are talking about. For your group I would just give them the maps since they and you do not like the issues you presented. $$$$ (money) can and often is an issue but if it is not then do a table top simulator and do not forget that the GM has to take time and effort to learn how to work the software for custom and pre-made content.
Note: I am sorry if this does not represent your game but from just reading your post this is the impression I get. I also agree that there are groups that like your style of play.
I can say that I am not a fan of how you play as I have played in games like that in the past and they have gotten sloppy very quickly and I often refer to them now as movie/book games. That is (from my experience playing, at cons and watching games in game stores) this style provides a lot of illusions and not real choice's. Note this is different then being in a situation in which you do not have a choice or any good choices. I guess without posting pages of info it is like a scrip with dice rolling at specific points.
I am sorry if I seem a bit harsh in my posting but having been playing (in many environments) for a long time I have seen some very bad (and very good) RPG situations.
In general I can say if and your group are having fun and no one is getting hurt then have at it and enjoy. If not I hope you can find a group that suits your style and you can enjoy RPG'ing together.
I hope I was not harsh in my last post but my experience with TotM games has been very poor as I said above they were more like acting then RPGing, the players often did not know they were essentially scripted and dice rolling did not have an impact on the game because the script was written and that was that. I have played in 4 TotM games, watched for a time 6-10 and provided feedback for 2 (that I would say were TotM/scripted in nature) games in alpha/beta development (depending on if you asked the creators or the people who were providing feedback).
To be very fair I have also played D&D 2e in a highly scripted game at a con and had fun, until I realized later just how scripted it was and what little freedom we all had (after talking to the GM no one had made it to the end in 8 "runs" as the script did not take into account people dyeing and poor rolling, ie everyone always rolls average so that was how the encounters were designed and when 1 person died the rest of the group generally failed quickly after that).
It should like your experiences have been better and I am very glad for that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
New to DM'ing and I want to make sure I'm "following the conventional rules".
I'm running a low level adventure for some of my kids, and I see that the digital content for the adventure has a DM map and a Player map. My question is - should I provide the entire Player map to the players as they start a quest? Seems to me that it should only be shown in parts, as the progress through the dungeon(s).
Any advice is helpful.
TTAIA
Only show them what their characters have seen - it's substantially less fun for everyone involved if you give them information they can't possibly know in-character.
If it were a straight choice, I'd cover what they haven't explored. It helps stop metagaming and them knowing how far they have to go, knowing what are dead ends, etc. If they can see the whole map, they can also see where there are likely to be secret doors - in the DoIP, there is one map that basically tells them that there is a door, since there is a corridor which has no entrances but ends at the wall of a room at either end.
On the other hand, revealing it a bit at a time can take quite a bit of effort. You could import the map to Roll20 which does have a way of revealing the map as they explore...but again, there's effort in setting that up.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks for the quick response. I felt like that was the answer. I'm looking at Foundry VTT, as it seems like a great/flexible tool. Would be really nice if it had the ability to import the adventures/maps to make this a moot point.
We used to let them map things out on their own by hand.
Graph paper and a pencil was pretty much all we needed. The mapper was normally the player whose character was in the middle of the group. (gives them a better chance on a surprise)
After a while the other players will start helping out the mapper and filling in the small details.
Once you see that they have a pretty good map go ahead and show them what they have seen on the provided map.
I did this when we were doing a few games over zoom. I had a word document with the map up, but blocked out areas in separate layers, more or less. So, they went in the front door and there were two doors - 1 to the left and 1 to the right. When they made their decision which way to go, I showed that layer. I found it was easier to do with this particular party as they weren't really keen on trying to remember and/or map. If there is no player map, it takes a little more work to edit the DM map to not show secret doors, etc.
Foundry is great but has a steep learning curve.
https://www.owlbear.rodeo/ lets you import a map, put tokens and hide areas intuitively in 5 mns .
^ This.
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
Need a character story/background written up? I do it for free (but also take donations!) - https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?591882-Need-a-character-background-written-up
=while most of what I do is theater of the mind and it’s upto the players to do any mapping they want I do print out out the player maps (and sometimes copy my homemade maps) then fold them overt hide the parts they haven seen. This also works well when event in the game cause the NPCs to alter the arrangement of a room and the stuff in it to try to give themselves a better setup than the printed layout. When I do that I mark in the new layout freehand and use the map to show them what they see rather than spend 5-10 minutes trying to explain it.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There is lots of great advice above for how to do maps and how they work for your group and play style, I can add a few things from the way past.
1) Take you map and copy it, then cut it up into segments. Then provide those segments to the group as needed. This works best for younger groups as often the game is not as heavily enforcing "meta gaming" and just trying to have fun and teach rpg game basics. Now a days you can do this physically and digitally so each player can have their own copy of the material. Note this also works well with handouts (physical and digital).
2) Mapping by hand can provide certain players a chance to shine vs others in that they may not be actors or math people but they can draw. So they draw out the room and maybe add in (draw) various features and notes about what happened in the room. Mapping can also help people who have or are having trouble in math gain some confidence and familiarity with graphing that may help them in school.
3) Groups can be different and what works in one group does not work in another, also at times people become tired of doing behind the scenes stuff (mapping, logging and or note taking, treasure, etc) so at times someone may not be doing one or more jobs....so be prepared if some one decides not to do something after doing it for a time.
The last group I had were terrible at taking notes and had a poor sense of direction. So I started providing them with the player maps so that they could keep track of where they were. It made things much easier.
But as others have said, it depends on your group and what works for everyone.
The problem with #2 is that PCs may be great at mapping but players aren't, or vice versa. Totally agree with #3.
If PCs are great but players aren't, you help the player or make it a team effort. If it's the reverse, it's down to them how to rooeplay. TheDM isn't there to police players, really. I found it was a drag without much benefit so we tried it and stopped, but it would probably work for at least some parties.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I agree, but remember players and not the PC's and vice versa. So what the players do (and the quality of such work) is not necessarily what the PC is doing (and quality). In my opinion it is the GM's and players job to (try) and enforce that idea, but again groups can be very different in what they do and do not do.
So with your comment I would also say just because the player make accurate maps with icons describing what happened in the room and what the room contained does not mean the PC's remember that.
The same issue can be said of players who keep notes and or record the session for later consumption and analysis as it often is not the same as what the PC would or would not remember.
I agree partiality. I agree it can be a drag for a GM to keep saying your PC would not know that (but in my opinion (IMO) it is important in certain styles of RPGing and not in others) but it is IMO imperative to provide the player with info/knowledge their PC would have/know that they do not. I also agree that this constant analysis of what the player knows and PC knows can be draining on the GM with all of the other things they have to do during the game.
I would note again that there are lots of ways to RP from video game styles to full immersion and what is expected of GM's and players differs in each.
The drag wasn't really in reference to preventing metagaming - while a DM can alter their style to encourage players to avoid it etc, it's ultimately down to the players to prevent it, not the DM. The drag was more...literal? As the players navigated the dungeon, I'd have to describe with quite fine detail the layout of the room. I'd have to repeat it several times since they'd forget some details while they took an age to draw it. If I was lucky, I'd notice the inevitable mistakes ("I said it turned north, not south") before they caused chaos later on. Of course,money don't know which directions the dungeon extended into, so we had a slightly better than 1 in 4 chance of even having a hope of fitting it all in, which wouod cause problems when we ran out of space. This all slowed the pace of the game down tremendously - what could be revealed in a few seconds or drawn by me in 5 minutes absorbed easily half an hour of the game as they tried to transcribe what I described.
That's not to say that it's hopeless. I'm sure it's worth the sacrifice and with players who have better memories and listened more carefully, you could cut that lost time down to more manageable levels. But for us, it really dragged things out and slowed down the pace - significantly eating into time that could have been better spent developing characters, exploring plots or just plain beheading a few Goblins.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks I see now what you are talking about. For your group I would just give them the maps since they and you do not like the issues you presented. $$$$ (money) can and often is an issue but if it is not then do a table top simulator and do not forget that the GM has to take time and effort to learn how to work the software for custom and pre-made content.
Note: I am sorry if this does not represent your game but from just reading your post this is the impression I get. I also agree that there are groups that like your style of play.
I can say that I am not a fan of how you play as I have played in games like that in the past and they have gotten sloppy very quickly and I often refer to them now as movie/book games. That is (from my experience playing, at cons and watching games in game stores) this style provides a lot of illusions and not real choice's. Note this is different then being in a situation in which you do not have a choice or any good choices. I guess without posting pages of info it is like a scrip with dice rolling at specific points.
I am sorry if I seem a bit harsh in my posting but having been playing (in many environments) for a long time I have seen some very bad (and very good) RPG situations.
In general I can say if and your group are having fun and no one is getting hurt then have at it and enjoy. If not I hope you can find a group that suits your style and you can enjoy RPG'ing together.
I hope I was not harsh in my last post but my experience with TotM games has been very poor as I said above they were more like acting then RPGing, the players often did not know they were essentially scripted and dice rolling did not have an impact on the game because the script was written and that was that. I have played in 4 TotM games, watched for a time 6-10 and provided feedback for 2 (that I would say were TotM/scripted in nature) games in alpha/beta development (depending on if you asked the creators or the people who were providing feedback).
To be very fair I have also played D&D 2e in a highly scripted game at a con and had fun, until I realized later just how scripted it was and what little freedom we all had (after talking to the GM no one had made it to the end in 8 "runs" as the script did not take into account people dyeing and poor rolling, ie everyone always rolls average so that was how the encounters were designed and when 1 person died the rest of the group generally failed quickly after that).
It should like your experiences have been better and I am very glad for that.