Just as a general disclaimer, I haven’t played D&D is a very long time, not since 2e and am just reading the forums and the 5e PHB with the thought of maybe coming back to the game, now that finding a group online seems possible.
When I was last playing, basically everyone I knew was into power gaming and murder hobo’ing. Indeed there was no such term as ‘murder hobo’. It was just the way the game was played. Now we fast-forward thirty years and a lot of life experience, and I’m finding I am no longer as interested in slaying imaginary creatures, but might play more for the social aspect, the problem solving and the drama of role playing. Interestingly, the game seems to have evolved in this direction.
Milestone levelling in one fell swoop removes all the pressure behind killing monsters to gain experience, which means you are much more free to embrace creative solutions and see monsters more as plot obstacles. Of course, monsters could still have interesting treasure, so there’s still some motivation for exploring a big dungeon like in the original Temple of Elemental Evil.
But I see the levelling curve is also quite different, 300 xp between 1st and 2nd level means just a handful of encounters to the first level up, so even if you use Milestone levelling that can happen quite quickly. Since monsters scale with PC level, is that kept more or less constant?
Are there any other optional rules which decrease the tendency to murder hobo? Are long dungeon crawls still a feature of many campaigns?
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Netherlands, GMT +1 // “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” — Bruce Lee
CR1 is 200XP, you need 300XP to level up to L2, so 1.5 creatures to get from L1 to L2.
CR19 is 22,000, you need 355,000XP to level up to L20,so about 15 creatures to level up.
So, no, it's not the same pace, it takes longer to level up as you get higher up. I haven't tracked the entire way up...but it isn't the same pace. The higher level you are, the more encounters you'll need to get to the next level.
Milestone is a good one, although you can adapt XP to work with non-murder hobo styles. I reward negotiation, they can usually get better rewards if they negotiate/roleplay/etc than if they just slaughter everyone. Usually, they can make their erstwhile enemies become their allies in some way. I also make encounters harder to make it a bit more risky and to, well, not quite deter them, but to make them think twice about it fighting.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Welcome back to the game. I also played back in those rp-free days, and you’re right, things have changed.
In published campaigns, there don’t tend to be lots of big, old style dungeon crawls. There are still dungeons, but they make sense now. Like, now there will be a goblin hideout in a cave system, so the monsters are goblins, and maybe they’re pet wolves and a hobgoblin leading them, and traps that clearly stop intruders, while allowing those inside to disarm them. Where before, there were those monster hotel-style dungeons full of incompatible enemies like orcs and skeletons in adjacent rooms for no discernible reason, and traps that were there for the sake of being there.
Also now, as you observe, the game is much more story focused. So when you go to that goblin hideout in the cave system, there’s typically more than one way to win. Sure, you can just slaughter them all, but it’s often possible to talk your way into getting them to leave, wether through bribery, threats or whatever the players can think of.
And you don’t even really need milestone leveling to do it, just give the same xp for talking your way past the goblins as you would for killing your past them. That’s really the big change. In 1e, there was the 1gp=1xp rule, so you were encouraged to kill everything so you could get the xp from looting the bodies. Now you get the xp for overcoming the challenge, and you get it no matter how you overcome it.
“Monster hotel” what a great name, yes that’s exactly what they were. In the best adventures at the time, things had a reason and a place but since most players would just be interested in the hack-and-slash aspect that is what a lot of games devolved into. I played in games with the “1 gp = 1 xp” rule, remember that quite well. Thieves would go on a pickpocketing expedition in cities for the extra experience.
In a way it is also about the risk-free nature of combat. You fight, and the Cleric patches you up again, so you can do it again. No broken bones, chopped off limbs, heavy scars, walking with a limp, infection, disability. Instead it’s all instantly fixable. These things usually motivate people to bypass combat rather than seeking it out in real life.
In reality, I see combat as being a lazy game designer’s way of providing challenge. When the situation plays out in a story told by a human DM, there are a lot of other ways to make players take interesting decisions. And the milestone levelling system just seems to take a lot of unnecessary bookkeeping out of the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Netherlands, GMT +1 // “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” — Bruce Lee
Are there any other optional rules which decrease the tendency to murder hobo?
I'd say the big one there is 'play with adults'. I recall one of my first characters had a complete collection of dragon horns. That was dumb. My newer characters have stuff like personality and goals instead (the goals may well be silly, but at least they're there).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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Just as a general disclaimer, I haven’t played D&D is a very long time, not since 2e and am just reading the forums and the 5e PHB with the thought of maybe coming back to the game, now that finding a group online seems possible.
When I was last playing, basically everyone I knew was into power gaming and murder hobo’ing. Indeed there was no such term as ‘murder hobo’. It was just the way the game was played. Now we fast-forward thirty years and a lot of life experience, and I’m finding I am no longer as interested in slaying imaginary creatures, but might play more for the social aspect, the problem solving and the drama of role playing. Interestingly, the game seems to have evolved in this direction.
Milestone levelling in one fell swoop removes all the pressure behind killing monsters to gain experience, which means you are much more free to embrace creative solutions and see monsters more as plot obstacles. Of course, monsters could still have interesting treasure, so there’s still some motivation for exploring a big dungeon like in the original Temple of Elemental Evil.
But I see the levelling curve is also quite different, 300 xp between 1st and 2nd level means just a handful of encounters to the first level up, so even if you use Milestone levelling that can happen quite quickly. Since monsters scale with PC level, is that kept more or less constant?
Are there any other optional rules which decrease the tendency to murder hobo? Are long dungeon crawls still a feature of many campaigns?
Netherlands, GMT +1 // “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” — Bruce Lee
CR1 is 200XP, you need 300XP to level up to L2, so 1.5 creatures to get from L1 to L2.
CR19 is 22,000, you need 355,000XP to level up to L20,so about 15 creatures to level up.
So, no, it's not the same pace, it takes longer to level up as you get higher up. I haven't tracked the entire way up...but it isn't the same pace. The higher level you are, the more encounters you'll need to get to the next level.
Milestone is a good one, although you can adapt XP to work with non-murder hobo styles. I reward negotiation, they can usually get better rewards if they negotiate/roleplay/etc than if they just slaughter everyone. Usually, they can make their erstwhile enemies become their allies in some way. I also make encounters harder to make it a bit more risky and to, well, not quite deter them, but to make them think twice about it fighting.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Welcome back to the game. I also played back in those rp-free days, and you’re right, things have changed.
In published campaigns, there don’t tend to be lots of big, old style dungeon crawls. There are still dungeons, but they make sense now. Like, now there will be a goblin hideout in a cave system, so the monsters are goblins, and maybe they’re pet wolves and a hobgoblin leading them, and traps that clearly stop intruders, while allowing those inside to disarm them. Where before, there were those monster hotel-style dungeons full of incompatible enemies like orcs and skeletons in adjacent rooms for no discernible reason, and traps that were there for the sake of being there.
Also now, as you observe, the game is much more story focused. So when you go to that goblin hideout in the cave system, there’s typically more than one way to win. Sure, you can just slaughter them all, but it’s often possible to talk your way into getting them to leave, wether through bribery, threats or whatever the players can think of.
And you don’t even really need milestone leveling to do it, just give the same xp for talking your way past the goblins as you would for killing your past them. That’s really the big change. In 1e, there was the 1gp=1xp rule, so you were encouraged to kill everything so you could get the xp from looting the bodies. Now you get the xp for overcoming the challenge, and you get it no matter how you overcome it.
“Monster hotel” what a great name, yes that’s exactly what they were. In the best adventures at the time, things had a reason and a place but since most players would just be interested in the hack-and-slash aspect that is what a lot of games devolved into. I played in games with the “1 gp = 1 xp” rule, remember that quite well. Thieves would go on a pickpocketing expedition in cities for the extra experience.
In a way it is also about the risk-free nature of combat. You fight, and the Cleric patches you up again, so you can do it again. No broken bones, chopped off limbs, heavy scars, walking with a limp, infection, disability. Instead it’s all instantly fixable. These things usually motivate people to bypass combat rather than seeking it out in real life.
In reality, I see combat as being a lazy game designer’s way of providing challenge. When the situation plays out in a story told by a human DM, there are a lot of other ways to make players take interesting decisions. And the milestone levelling system just seems to take a lot of unnecessary bookkeeping out of the game.
Netherlands, GMT +1 // “Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” — Bruce Lee
I'd say the big one there is 'play with adults'. I recall one of my first characters had a complete collection of dragon horns. That was dumb. My newer characters have stuff like personality and goals instead (the goals may well be silly, but at least they're there).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.