Grizzled old gamer here... I've been playing since the early 80s and I have to say, from what I've seen, the 2024 PHB is a dangerous thing. Power Creep *is* a thing and it ultimately leads somewhere we've been before. As players, we want our characters to be more and more powerful (i.e. 'fun'). As game designers and authors, WotC/Hasbro wants to make products that we'll buy (... and don't forget the digital edition!) without any regard to where this is headed. Is anybody with me on this? Am I the only one that remembers 'Monty Haul' campaigns and playing homebrew adventures to capture the Wand of Orcus or Thor's Hammer?
I'm trying to understand, I really am. I know attention spans are getting shorter and no one wants to lose (or even 'miss' - wait! I nicked you! Take x damage). I worry for where this will go next and if it is even possible to course correct. Admittedly, we have not seen the DMG or Monster Manual yet, and maybe they will bring balance to the universe. Who knows?
One thing is for sure, Pepperidge Farms remembers...
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.
Sorry, if you use the G. Santayan reference, please use the right one, not the Winston Churchill version used in a speech in 1948.
--
Edit: The reply to the meat of your comment.
Power Creep. /sigh ...
First my "credentials" as it were. I 1st played D&D in Jr High School in the Chess club, premade characters and a very loose interpretation of 1st ed rules. This was around 1983. This and a dollar is worth .50 cents, as it's less than worthless information and adds nothing to the discussion.
"Monty Haul" dungeons were a whole lot more fun, and interesting than the Gygax death every five feet of movement unless you had 1 thief, 1 ranger, 1 cleric, 1 Wizard, and 1 fighter. Honestly I hated the "stop check for traps, and hidden doors" every five seconds dungeons. They were annoying and caused me to not play from 1989 - 1993 (that and the USMC, although I did manage to squeeze in CP2020 in that time, my Solo with a mingun was fun as all heck)
But yes there is a power creep issue in 5e. It's unavoidable. due to how the game is designed. You either have power creep, or no feeling of power ever (see p2e) I would have to do an massive essay on Table top game design to explain why, and how it happens, but 5e was built in a way it inherently always has godlike power creep.
3rd edition, 3.5, p2e.. and other are designed to avoid this issue by upscaling the challenges to impossible levels as you level. if you are 3-5 levels under a creature/NPC you are dead, if you are 3-5 levels over it they wont last one round. 5e opted to make it so you can survive a 20 level gap, and always have a chance to at least scratch a scale with that level difference. So you can send a horde of low level minions at a party and still challenge them as well. In fact 30 cr1 goblins against a "optimized" level 11 Party (Tank, Heals, and DRP) would still be a challenge. Sure that party can beat up an ancient Red, but will they survive the 100 Kobolds who want revenge?
PHB 2024 characters will definitely be more powerful. Kinda. The paladin will be less powerful, and stuff like the wizard and cleric aren't significantly more powerful. A few classes got larger buffs, but it's within the expected range of character power. The range of power was flattened.
Also, realistically, if they sold a book that was more balanced with tighter rules and better designed classes but everything was nerfed... who'd switch? There does need to be that slight power increase for the majority of characters to encourage use (and help you ignore the nerfs that do exist).
Yeah, every new splatbook tends to boost power level. The options in Tasha's are pretty good. And the options in this book are probably comparable. So the options in the PHB-2014 feel weaker, as do the Xanathar's options. BUT this level of power creep has also occured over a decade. Tasha's Cauldron of Everything came out six years into the edition. This is a big change from 4e or 3e where the power creep option books came out with 18 months and they ramped up even higher in power in another 18 months. Even in 1e, Unearthed Arcana came out in '85, just four years after the core rules were complete.
Also, they're re-doing monsters at the same time. Any serious buff to PC power levels can be countered by making monsters more potent at the same time.
BUT this level of power creep has also occured over a decade. Tasha's Cauldron of Everything came out six years into the edition. This is a big change from 4e or 3e where the power creep option books came out with 18 months and they ramped up even higher in power in another 18 months. Even in 1e, Unearthed Arcana came out in '85, just four years after the core rules were complete.
Also, they're re-doing monsters at the same time. Any serious buff to PC power levels can be countered by making monsters more potent at the same time.
This! That's a very good point. Now that I think about it, 1e to Advanced, etc. all happened in a much shorter time than the 10 years 5e has been out.
I wonder how much of that is due to the transfer of IP between companies? When it was just TSR, they could pull all the strings and change much quicker.
I wonder how much of that is due to the transfer of IP between companies? When it was just TSR, they could pull all the strings and change much quicker.
The transfer of IP happened in...1997 (WotC buying TSR) and 1999 (Hasbro buying WotC). It's been Wizardsbro all the way since then, including all of 3, 3.5, 4, 5, and now 5.24.
WotC has been much more conservative about changing editions in the last 10 years because 5th was soooo much more popular than the previous editions. They don't want to blow up their market.
What they mostly did in 2024 is flatten the power variance between classes -- it's still there, but the difference between best and worst is much smaller -- and they did so primarily by buffing the weak classes rather than nerfing the strong ones (with the possible exception of the paladin, which got a mix of buffs and nerfs, and some things that got ported into the PHB from other books, such as the gloomstrider). I don't think an optimized 2024 party will be all that much stronger than in 2014, but an average party may be.
The most likely way for compensating for this, which they've already hinted at, is just redesigning the encounter rules.
I also started in 1983 and have no complaints or concerns. I'm excited about the update and the opportunity to see the results of a decade of live play changing the game.
I know old men are supposed to shake their fists at clouds for blocking out the sun, but I have no time for it.
I could easily buy used AD&D books and run it again if I wanted to. I don't, and it's okay if others are different. It's perfectly fine. We’re all fine here now, thank you.
I wonder how much of that is due to the transfer of IP between companies? When it was just TSR, they could pull all the strings and change much quicker.
The transfer of IP happened in...1997 (WotC buying TSR) and 1999 (Hasbro buying WotC). It's been Wizardsbro all the way since then, including all of 3, 3.5, 4, 5, and now 5.24.
WotC has been much more conservative about changing editions in the last 10 years because 5th was soooo much more popular than the previous editions. They don't want to blow up their market.
Yep. They learned with 4th pretty quick that when the audience reception was so bad(I'll die on a hill that 4th isn't bad) that it basically created their majority competition in Pathfinder. They aren't gonna kill the golden goose, not when the vast majority of Hasbro isn't profitable.
I wonder how much of that is due to the transfer of IP between companies? When it was just TSR, they could pull all the strings and change much quicker.
The transfer of IP happened in...1997 (WotC buying TSR) and 1999 (Hasbro buying WotC). It's been Wizardsbro all the way since then, including all of 3, 3.5, 4, 5, and now 5.24.
WotC has been much more conservative about changing editions in the last 10 years because 5th was soooo much more popular than the previous editions. They don't want to blow up their market.
Yep. They learned with 4th pretty quick that when the audience reception was so bad(I'll die on a hill that 4th isn't bad) that it basically created their majority competition in Pathfinder. They aren't gonna kill the golden goose, not when the vast majority of Hasbro isn't profitable.
I started DMing in 4th, it was a fun game system, and honestly the best looking Books WotC or TSR had ever published. Also the ad campaign was possibly the best thing ever, those Cartoons were hilarious.
But Hasbro wanted to corner the TTRPG market, and they miscalculated a great many things when going to 4th. It still sold better than any other TTRGP prior, and it out sold it's competition by a factor of 10:1 but they saw that they needed to reverse their course, so they made 5th. And opened up new updates for 5th OGL. Best choice ever. Its why the Marketing team is too scared to use the proper English words for an update to a book. But whatever, PHB 5.24 seems to be the consensus in the community. However Hasbro has laid off a lot of creative talent from WotC to include important people at DnDB and D&D's writing/creative teams.
So I doubt Hasbro has learned the right lessons from 4th edition.
Much of 2024 core rulebooks success will depend on the monster manual. Power levels are not measured by player character design, they are measured by the power level of the challenges. Since we know virtually nothing at all about Monster and Encounter Design, we don't know much at all about the power levels of the game at the moment.
Notes: The 2024 core rulebooks are not a new edition
Much of 2024 core rulebooks success will depend on the monster manual. Power levels are not measured by player character design, they are measured by the power level of the challenges. Since we know virtually nothing at all about Monster and Encounter Design, we don't know much at all about the power levels of the game at the moment.
Those are the most important and often overshadowed books of any edition, the new PHB'S get all of the hype and glory. I am looking forward to reading all of the new core books, I am very thankful for content sharing so I don't have to buy them to read them.
... are doomed to repeat it." - G. Santayana
Grizzled old gamer here... I've been playing since the early 80s and I have to say, from what I've seen, the 2024 PHB is a dangerous thing. Power Creep *is* a thing and it ultimately leads somewhere we've been before. As players, we want our characters to be more and more powerful (i.e. 'fun'). As game designers and authors, WotC/Hasbro wants to make products that we'll buy (... and don't forget the digital edition!) without any regard to where this is headed. Is anybody with me on this? Am I the only one that remembers 'Monty Haul' campaigns and playing homebrew adventures to capture the Wand of Orcus or Thor's Hammer?
I'm trying to understand, I really am. I know attention spans are getting shorter and no one wants to lose (or even 'miss' - wait! I nicked you! Take x damage). I worry for where this will go next and if it is even possible to course correct. Admittedly, we have not seen the DMG or Monster Manual yet, and maybe they will bring balance to the universe. Who knows?
One thing is for sure, Pepperidge Farms remembers...
Thanks for reading this far!
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” - George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.
Sorry, if you use the G. Santayan reference, please use the right one, not the Winston Churchill version used in a speech in 1948.
--
Edit: The reply to the meat of your comment.
Power Creep. /sigh ...
First my "credentials" as it were. I 1st played D&D in Jr High School in the Chess club, premade characters and a very loose interpretation of 1st ed rules. This was around 1983. This and a dollar is worth .50 cents, as it's less than worthless information and adds nothing to the discussion.
"Monty Haul" dungeons were a whole lot more fun, and interesting than the Gygax death every five feet of movement unless you had 1 thief, 1 ranger, 1 cleric, 1 Wizard, and 1 fighter. Honestly I hated the "stop check for traps, and hidden doors" every five seconds dungeons. They were annoying and caused me to not play from 1989 - 1993 (that and the USMC, although I did manage to squeeze in CP2020 in that time, my Solo with a mingun was fun as all heck)
But yes there is a power creep issue in 5e. It's unavoidable. due to how the game is designed. You either have power creep, or no feeling of power ever (see p2e) I would have to do an massive essay on Table top game design to explain why, and how it happens, but 5e was built in a way it inherently always has godlike power creep.
3rd edition, 3.5, p2e.. and other are designed to avoid this issue by upscaling the challenges to impossible levels as you level. if you are 3-5 levels under a creature/NPC you are dead, if you are 3-5 levels over it they wont last one round. 5e opted to make it so you can survive a 20 level gap, and always have a chance to at least scratch a scale with that level difference. So you can send a horde of low level minions at a party and still challenge them as well. In fact 30 cr1 goblins against a "optimized" level 11 Party (Tank, Heals, and DRP) would still be a challenge. Sure that party can beat up an ancient Red, but will they survive the 100 Kobolds who want revenge?
PHB 2024 characters will definitely be more powerful. Kinda. The paladin will be less powerful, and stuff like the wizard and cleric aren't significantly more powerful. A few classes got larger buffs, but it's within the expected range of character power. The range of power was flattened.
Also, realistically, if they sold a book that was more balanced with tighter rules and better designed classes but everything was nerfed... who'd switch? There does need to be that slight power increase for the majority of characters to encourage use (and help you ignore the nerfs that do exist).
Yeah, every new splatbook tends to boost power level. The options in Tasha's are pretty good. And the options in this book are probably comparable. So the options in the PHB-2014 feel weaker, as do the Xanathar's options. BUT this level of power creep has also occured over a decade. Tasha's Cauldron of Everything came out six years into the edition. This is a big change from 4e or 3e where the power creep option books came out with 18 months and they ramped up even higher in power in another 18 months. Even in 1e, Unearthed Arcana came out in '85, just four years after the core rules were complete.
Also, they're re-doing monsters at the same time. Any serious buff to PC power levels can be countered by making monsters more potent at the same time.
This! That's a very good point. Now that I think about it, 1e to Advanced, etc. all happened in a much shorter time than the 10 years 5e has been out.
I wonder how much of that is due to the transfer of IP between companies? When it was just TSR, they could pull all the strings and change much quicker.
The transfer of IP happened in...1997 (WotC buying TSR) and 1999 (Hasbro buying WotC). It's been Wizardsbro all the way since then, including all of 3, 3.5, 4, 5, and now 5.24.
WotC has been much more conservative about changing editions in the last 10 years because 5th was soooo much more popular than the previous editions. They don't want to blow up their market.
What they mostly did in 2024 is flatten the power variance between classes -- it's still there, but the difference between best and worst is much smaller -- and they did so primarily by buffing the weak classes rather than nerfing the strong ones (with the possible exception of the paladin, which got a mix of buffs and nerfs, and some things that got ported into the PHB from other books, such as the gloomstrider). I don't think an optimized 2024 party will be all that much stronger than in 2014, but an average party may be.
The most likely way for compensating for this, which they've already hinted at, is just redesigning the encounter rules.
I also started in 1983 and have no complaints or concerns. I'm excited about the update and the opportunity to see the results of a decade of live play changing the game.
I know old men are supposed to shake their fists at clouds for blocking out the sun, but I have no time for it.
I could easily buy used AD&D books and run it again if I wanted to. I don't, and it's okay if others are different. It's perfectly fine. We’re all fine here now, thank you.
Yep. They learned with 4th pretty quick that when the audience reception was so bad(I'll die on a hill that 4th isn't bad) that it basically created their majority competition in Pathfinder. They aren't gonna kill the golden goose, not when the vast majority of Hasbro isn't profitable.
I started DMing in 4th, it was a fun game system, and honestly the best looking Books WotC or TSR had ever published. Also the ad campaign was possibly the best thing ever, those Cartoons were hilarious.
But Hasbro wanted to corner the TTRPG market, and they miscalculated a great many things when going to 4th. It still sold better than any other TTRGP prior, and it out sold it's competition by a factor of 10:1 but they saw that they needed to reverse their course, so they made 5th. And opened up new updates for 5th OGL. Best choice ever. Its why the Marketing team is too scared to use the proper English words for an update to a book. But whatever, PHB 5.24 seems to be the consensus in the community. However Hasbro has laid off a lot of creative talent from WotC to include important people at DnDB and D&D's writing/creative teams.
So I doubt Hasbro has learned the right lessons from 4th edition.
Much of 2024 core rulebooks success will depend on the monster manual. Power levels are not measured by player character design, they are measured by the power level of the challenges. Since we know virtually nothing at all about Monster and Encounter Design, we don't know much at all about the power levels of the game at the moment.
I don't think you have enough information to make a call. Without the DMG and MM the power level of the characters is in a void.
Those are the most important and often overshadowed books of any edition, the new PHB'S get all of the hype and glory. I am looking forward to reading all of the new core books, I am very thankful for content sharing so I don't have to buy them to read them.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.