I've read a lot of threads in this forum on Grappling and how it does or does function the way some people would like. Although this is something that a martial artist would seem to be good at, many have pointed out that a traditional Dex-focused Monk isn't actually an ideal character to use the rules as written. I haven't really used this at all with my character yet so my question is: Who should Monks be grappling with for maximum effect?
It seems like we are at a disadvantage against big, burly Barbarian/Fighter types who prioritized Strength and are likely proficient in Athletics. If we can knock them Prone (Shove, Open Hand, etc) as well we can pin them down and force them into Disadvantage if they try to attack us but it seems like they will get out sooner or later since they probably have a better bonus on the roll than we do. Is it worth it to keep them from engaging more fragile party members?
I thought Grappling with spellcasters would be a great move but in most cases that doesn't stop them from casting spells (they only need one hand free for Somatic spell components and the description of Grapple doesn't specify how they are restrained), they are only inconvenienced if their spell requires an attack roll and they probably have access to something that could push you away and break the Grapple. Sure, it keeps them from moving away and you've probably got a good enough advantage on the roll to escape that they won't even bother attempting it but it won't stop them from dropping a Fireball on your friends, is it still worth it?
Grappling seems most effective against non-magic using ranged attackers. They probably prioritized Dex so they have a better chance of escaping than the spellcaster but having someone within 5 feet can cripple their offensive effectiveness and odds are you can beat them down a lot faster than they can hurt you with whatever melee weapon they have on hand. It seems like the Rogue in my party would be a big trouble if someone tried this on him so I imagine this would be effective against other similar foes.
For those of you who have made use of the Grappling rules, are these assessments accurate? Who should I be going after with this (or should I just keep punching them in the face)?
Assuming you have a decent atheletic or strength.. grappling is great for ruining the action economy of someone who wants to constantly MOVE away from you, or needs space to attack. Like you said, a ranged archer is a good example. A Deer or Tiger that wants to make use of its charge or pounce attack every round is a goos option (although lets be honest, do you REALLY want to grapple that tiger?) Spell casters usually have utility spells to get away, but it usually takes part of their action economy or a spell alot to use something like misty step.
Spell casters want to get away from melee range usually because they dont want to lose concentration on any spell if they get hit. And also, when your squishy, being punching distance from anything is bad... if they have to blow a utility spell on you, or a spell that the monk will likely make a successful Save against, then you're forcing them to use their action economy inefficiently which is a Good thing.
Enter the monk.. you can technically use your Martial Art unarmed strike or one of your multi attacks at level 5 to initiate a grapple, assuming you have a free hand. This action economy makes good use of youe Bonus Action, where as the only other way a non monk could make a grapple attack with their bonus action is with the Tavern Brawler Feat or with the new Battlemaster maneuvers from Tasha's.
Is grappling the best idea? Yes and no... but usually no... If you have atheletic skill proficiency in and a good strength (or wisdom with Astral Self) then yes. If Strength is your Dump Stat, then you clearly want to avoid grappling most of the time. Pinning down someones mobility is great, but its a waste of an attack if you know you have a slim chance at it.
On the other hand, using the Disarm attack doesnt require a contention if Atheletics, and is an Attack Roll from the PC versus the defenders Atheletics or Acdobatics... you will probably have more success with this because you can you can use your Dex based attack roll and proficiency.. to be good at grappling, you just need to optimize for it. Personally, a Barbarian eith Tavern Brawler is a better Grappler in my opinion.
Thank you, that is a very informative response. So it sounds like the advantage to Grappling for a monk lies more in the fact that the opportunity cost to do it is lower for you than it is for the opponent to escape. Even if they get out or are only marginally inconvenienced while grappled it takes away their mobility and costs them actions to get free, actions they aren't doing something more effective to defeat you and your party.
In my specific case, I am playing a Halfling (which hampers grappling larger targets but most things are still Medium) and I've been trying to figure out if this is a worthwhile tactic to pursue. My Strength is decent (we rolled for attributes and I rolled well) and I am proficient with Athletics so I've got a decent roll, though not as good as some others might be. I like the idea of being able to knock down and basically pin an opponent in conjunction with Open Hand but I discovered by accident in our last session that knocking enemies prone isn't necessarily good for the rest of my party, they are all ranged or support characters (a Rogue, a Wizard and a Bard). I used my usual Stunning Strike/Flurry of Blows to stun and knock the main enemy down and across the room but that made it harder for them to hurt him than when he was just engaging me (ironically). In that specific case, grappling probably wouldn't have been a good idea since he was definitely stronger than me but I've been trying to figure out if it might be a good option for the future.
It took me a bit to find the Disarm attack you were referring to, are those things in the DMG considered to be always be options or only if the DM decides they are? Unfortunately it probably won't be a good option in my case since I'm playing a Small character and most of those rolls will be against things bigger than me.
I find grappling to be fairly useful for my monk because of the way my dm runs grappling. Before the roll he asks how you want to grab the enemy ex. "I want to grab their wrist" or "A headlock". Then if the roll succeeds he runs logical consequences based on how you grabbed the enemy. Grab a guys sword arm and he can't stab you. Lift wizard up by the front of their shirt and they still can cast. Being a monk though you can still attack even with both your hands grappling since unarmed strikes include kicks, headbutted and elbows.
I find grappling to be fairly useful for my monk because of the way my dm runs grappling. Before the roll he asks how you want to grab the enemy ex. "I want to grab their wrist" or "A headlock". Then if the roll succeeds he runs logical consequences based on how you grabbed the enemy. Grab a guys sword arm and he can't stab you. Lift wizard up by the front of their shirt and they still can cast. Being a monk though you can still attack even with both your hands grappling since unarmed strikes include kicks, headbutted and elbows.
We usually play things RAW so I don't know if I would be able to get effects that aren't specified out of a grapple, although I could definitely hit them with other body parts if both hands were occupied grappling two targets. This is less because we are rules lawyers (although the DM is actually a lawyer) than because we all have come to accept that there is a large degree of abstraction present in the rules and once we start trying to make everything make logical sense there will no end to it.
Astral self monk is probably the best way to go, since you're way more likely to invest in wisdom than strength. RAW you can't grapple at 10 feet, but if your DM allows it it suddenly becomes an excellent feature. A melee attacker cannot attack you at 10 feet and has to use their action to TRY to break free.
Astral self monk is probably the best way to go, since you're way more likely to invest in wisdom than strength. RAW you can't grapple at 10 feet, but if your DM allows it it suddenly becomes an excellent feature. A melee attacker cannot attack you at 10 feet and has to use their action to TRY to break free.
That would be quite good if the DM allowed it. Has there been any official ruling as to whether the astral arms can grapple separately from your own arms? It specifically says they can use the arms for unarmed strikes, normally I would take that to mean that they couldn't be used for anything else because otherwise why would you need to say that. Could an Astral Self Monk theoretically grapple four targets at once?
Thank you, that is a very informative response. So it sounds like the advantage to Grappling for a monk lies more in the fact that the opportunity cost to do it is lower for you than it is for the opponent to escape. Even if they get out or are only marginally inconvenienced while grappled it takes away their mobility and costs them actions to get free, actions they aren't doing something more effective to defeat you and your party.
In my specific case, I am playing a Halfling (which hampers grappling larger targets but most things are still Medium) and I've been trying to figure out if this is a worthwhile tactic to pursue. My Strength is decent (we rolled for attributes and I rolled well) and I am proficient with Athletics so I've got a decent roll, though not as good as some others might be. I like the idea of being able to knock down and basically pin an opponent in conjunction with Open Hand but I discovered by accident in our last session that knocking enemies prone isn't necessarily good for the rest of my party, they are all ranged or support characters (a Rogue, a Wizard and a Bard). I used my usual Stunning Strike/Flurry of Blows to stun and knock the main enemy down and across the room but that made it harder for them to hurt him than when he was just engaging me (ironically). In that specific case, grappling probably wouldn't have been a good idea since he was definitely stronger than me but I've been trying to figure out if it might be a good option for the future.
It took me a bit to find the Disarm attack you were referring to, are those things in the DMG considered to be always be options or only if the DM decides they are? Unfortunately it probably won't be a good option in my case since I'm playing a Small character and most of those rolls will be against things bigger than me.
Hi Finiran, sorry I must have accidentally removed the notice for this thread.
If you're playing a Halfing, Grappling will have a lot more limitations due to your size... but it still works, just not in the same way that a medium sized creature's grapple may work. In the DMG, it suggests that Grappling onto a creature larger than you, but you actually "Rodeo" them of the sorts. You move when they move, at no expense to your movement, but you don't impose any movement penalties to them or do anything to their action economy. Think of Legolas from LOTR Rodeoing ontop of the Cave Troll (or was it an orgre?) in the Dwarven ruins. Depending on your DM, doing this might grant you advantage or other bonuses, at the cost of constantly needing to make Atheletics Checks... but again, this is all DMG optional rules.
With an Open Hand Monk, following the above idea, you could easily role play your Halfling Open Palm Monk using an attack to Jump on the back of a larger creature, and using your Flurry of Blows to "hamstring" the target and knock it prone. You might have to make some Skill Checks to make sure you don't get crushed when you bring it down, but it's certainly a flavorful image.. and you would already be grappled with the target after it's prone.
In the instance you described, where you knocked a target prone and grabbed him, and your party had difficulty hitting him with their Ranged Attacks... well, that issue is going to exist in that type of scenario. Your strategy could certainly still be useful if there were more than one target, or if your allies had spells that relied on saving throws as opposed to Attack Rolls (referring to Wizard and Bard, Rogue needs an attack roll regardless). Knowing when to do this maneuver and when not to is something you'll get the hang of... but being the Meat Shield for your party as a Monk will probably get pretty difficult sometimes, so be careful. If you knock a character prone, they don't get opportunity attacks against you, so sometimes getting out of melee may be more useful. (free action to let go of a grapple!)
As for the DMG option for Disarming attacks, true.. as a Halfling it might be difficult to use effectively... but if you're fighting a Medium Sized Humanoid Wizard, we can usually make the assumption that their Athletics and/or Acrobatics check is not very good. Even if they have advantage, the skill check, their skill bonus will usually be significantly lower than your attack roll. Knocking a casting focus or wand out a wizards hand can be surprisingly useful, especially if the DM created that Wizard using PC rules as opposed to a Monster Manual template. Still, I agree, as a Halfling, Disarm and Grappling might not be the best options, but look for fun opportunities with both use of your unarmed strike as a Open Palm monk.
Astral self monk is probably the best way to go, since you're way more likely to invest in wisdom than strength. RAW you can't grapple at 10 feet, but if your DM allows it it suddenly becomes an excellent feature. A melee attacker cannot attack you at 10 feet and has to use their action to TRY to break free.
That would be quite good if the DM allowed it. Has there been any official ruling as to whether the astral arms can grapple separately from your own arms? It specifically says they can use the arms for unarmed strikes, normally I would take that to mean that they couldn't be used for anything else because otherwise why would you need to say that. Could an Astral Self Monk theoretically grapple four targets at once?
Like you said, the arms can only do what it says, so unfortunately you cannot grapple 4. But by RAW, I believe you could grapple 2 and still use the arms for all of your attacks. If you really want to grapple you could even take something like the Skill Expert feat and get expertise in athletics, if you already took proficiency in athletics. So double your Proficiency Bonus and your WIS mod while the arms are active. It only says they have to be present to be able to use WIS instead of STR
I've read a lot of threads in this forum on Grappling and how it does or does function the way some people would like. Although this is something that a martial artist would seem to be good at, many have pointed out that a traditional Dex-focused Monk isn't actually an ideal character to use the rules as written. I haven't really used this at all with my character yet so my question is: Who should Monks be grappling with for maximum effect?
It seems like we are at a disadvantage against big, burly Barbarian/Fighter types who prioritized Strength and are likely proficient in Athletics. If we can knock them Prone (Shove, Open Hand, etc) as well we can pin them down and force them into Disadvantage if they try to attack us but it seems like they will get out sooner or later since they probably have a better bonus on the roll than we do. Is it worth it to keep them from engaging more fragile party members?
I thought Grappling with spellcasters would be a great move but in most cases that doesn't stop them from casting spells (they only need one hand free for Somatic spell components and the description of Grapple doesn't specify how they are restrained), they are only inconvenienced if their spell requires an attack roll and they probably have access to something that could push you away and break the Grapple. Sure, it keeps them from moving away and you've probably got a good enough advantage on the roll to escape that they won't even bother attempting it but it won't stop them from dropping a Fireball on your friends, is it still worth it?
Grappling seems most effective against non-magic using ranged attackers. They probably prioritized Dex so they have a better chance of escaping than the spellcaster but having someone within 5 feet can cripple their offensive effectiveness and odds are you can beat them down a lot faster than they can hurt you with whatever melee weapon they have on hand. It seems like the Rogue in my party would be a big trouble if someone tried this on him so I imagine this would be effective against other similar foes.
For those of you who have made use of the Grappling rules, are these assessments accurate? Who should I be going after with this (or should I just keep punching them in the face)?
Assuming you have a decent atheletic or strength.. grappling is great for ruining the action economy of someone who wants to constantly MOVE away from you, or needs space to attack. Like you said, a ranged archer is a good example. A Deer or Tiger that wants to make use of its charge or pounce attack every round is a goos option (although lets be honest, do you REALLY want to grapple that tiger?) Spell casters usually have utility spells to get away, but it usually takes part of their action economy or a spell alot to use something like misty step.
Spell casters want to get away from melee range usually because they dont want to lose concentration on any spell if they get hit. And also, when your squishy, being punching distance from anything is bad... if they have to blow a utility spell on you, or a spell that the monk will likely make a successful Save against, then you're forcing them to use their action economy inefficiently which is a Good thing.
Enter the monk.. you can technically use your Martial Art unarmed strike or one of your multi attacks at level 5 to initiate a grapple, assuming you have a free hand. This action economy makes good use of youe Bonus Action, where as the only other way a non monk could make a grapple attack with their bonus action is with the Tavern Brawler Feat or with the new Battlemaster maneuvers from Tasha's.
Is grappling the best idea? Yes and no... but usually no... If you have atheletic skill proficiency in and a good strength (or wisdom with Astral Self) then yes. If Strength is your Dump Stat, then you clearly want to avoid grappling most of the time. Pinning down someones mobility is great, but its a waste of an attack if you know you have a slim chance at it.
On the other hand, using the Disarm attack doesnt require a contention if Atheletics, and is an Attack Roll from the PC versus the defenders Atheletics or Acdobatics... you will probably have more success with this because you can you can use your Dex based attack roll and proficiency.. to be good at grappling, you just need to optimize for it. Personally, a Barbarian eith Tavern Brawler is a better Grappler in my opinion.
Thank you, that is a very informative response. So it sounds like the advantage to Grappling for a monk lies more in the fact that the opportunity cost to do it is lower for you than it is for the opponent to escape. Even if they get out or are only marginally inconvenienced while grappled it takes away their mobility and costs them actions to get free, actions they aren't doing something more effective to defeat you and your party.
In my specific case, I am playing a Halfling (which hampers grappling larger targets but most things are still Medium) and I've been trying to figure out if this is a worthwhile tactic to pursue. My Strength is decent (we rolled for attributes and I rolled well) and I am proficient with Athletics so I've got a decent roll, though not as good as some others might be. I like the idea of being able to knock down and basically pin an opponent in conjunction with Open Hand but I discovered by accident in our last session that knocking enemies prone isn't necessarily good for the rest of my party, they are all ranged or support characters (a Rogue, a Wizard and a Bard). I used my usual Stunning Strike/Flurry of Blows to stun and knock the main enemy down and across the room but that made it harder for them to hurt him than when he was just engaging me (ironically). In that specific case, grappling probably wouldn't have been a good idea since he was definitely stronger than me but I've been trying to figure out if it might be a good option for the future.
It took me a bit to find the Disarm attack you were referring to, are those things in the DMG considered to be always be options or only if the DM decides they are? Unfortunately it probably won't be a good option in my case since I'm playing a Small character and most of those rolls will be against things bigger than me.
I find grappling to be fairly useful for my monk because of the way my dm runs grappling. Before the roll he asks how you want to grab the enemy ex. "I want to grab their wrist" or "A headlock". Then if the roll succeeds he runs logical consequences based on how you grabbed the enemy. Grab a guys sword arm and he can't stab you. Lift wizard up by the front of their shirt and they still can cast. Being a monk though you can still attack even with both your hands grappling since unarmed strikes include kicks, headbutted and elbows.
We usually play things RAW so I don't know if I would be able to get effects that aren't specified out of a grapple, although I could definitely hit them with other body parts if both hands were occupied grappling two targets. This is less because we are rules lawyers (although the DM is actually a lawyer) than because we all have come to accept that there is a large degree of abstraction present in the rules and once we start trying to make everything make logical sense there will no end to it.
Astral self monk is probably the best way to go, since you're way more likely to invest in wisdom than strength. RAW you can't grapple at 10 feet, but if your DM allows it it suddenly becomes an excellent feature. A melee attacker cannot attack you at 10 feet and has to use their action to TRY to break free.
That would be quite good if the DM allowed it. Has there been any official ruling as to whether the astral arms can grapple separately from your own arms? It specifically says they can use the arms for unarmed strikes, normally I would take that to mean that they couldn't be used for anything else because otherwise why would you need to say that. Could an Astral Self Monk theoretically grapple four targets at once?
Hi Finiran, sorry I must have accidentally removed the notice for this thread.
If you're playing a Halfing, Grappling will have a lot more limitations due to your size... but it still works, just not in the same way that a medium sized creature's grapple may work. In the DMG, it suggests that Grappling onto a creature larger than you, but you actually "Rodeo" them of the sorts. You move when they move, at no expense to your movement, but you don't impose any movement penalties to them or do anything to their action economy. Think of Legolas from LOTR Rodeoing ontop of the Cave Troll (or was it an orgre?) in the Dwarven ruins. Depending on your DM, doing this might grant you advantage or other bonuses, at the cost of constantly needing to make Atheletics Checks... but again, this is all DMG optional rules.
With an Open Hand Monk, following the above idea, you could easily role play your Halfling Open Palm Monk using an attack to Jump on the back of a larger creature, and using your Flurry of Blows to "hamstring" the target and knock it prone. You might have to make some Skill Checks to make sure you don't get crushed when you bring it down, but it's certainly a flavorful image.. and you would already be grappled with the target after it's prone.
In the instance you described, where you knocked a target prone and grabbed him, and your party had difficulty hitting him with their Ranged Attacks... well, that issue is going to exist in that type of scenario. Your strategy could certainly still be useful if there were more than one target, or if your allies had spells that relied on saving throws as opposed to Attack Rolls (referring to Wizard and Bard, Rogue needs an attack roll regardless). Knowing when to do this maneuver and when not to is something you'll get the hang of... but being the Meat Shield for your party as a Monk will probably get pretty difficult sometimes, so be careful. If you knock a character prone, they don't get opportunity attacks against you, so sometimes getting out of melee may be more useful. (free action to let go of a grapple!)
As for the DMG option for Disarming attacks, true.. as a Halfling it might be difficult to use effectively... but if you're fighting a Medium Sized Humanoid Wizard, we can usually make the assumption that their Athletics and/or Acrobatics check is not very good. Even if they have advantage, the skill check, their skill bonus will usually be significantly lower than your attack roll. Knocking a casting focus or wand out a wizards hand can be surprisingly useful, especially if the DM created that Wizard using PC rules as opposed to a Monster Manual template. Still, I agree, as a Halfling, Disarm and Grappling might not be the best options, but look for fun opportunities with both use of your unarmed strike as a Open Palm monk.
Like you said, the arms can only do what it says, so unfortunately you cannot grapple 4. But by RAW, I believe you could grapple 2 and still use the arms for all of your attacks. If you really want to grapple you could even take something like the Skill Expert feat and get expertise in athletics, if you already took proficiency in athletics. So double your Proficiency Bonus and your WIS mod while the arms are active. It only says they have to be present to be able to use WIS instead of STR
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