I want my monk to have grown up in a clan practicing the way of the shadow, but the biggest drawback to playing a shadow monk is being able to sneak around but not having that sweet sneak attack bonus. What do you guys think? Is it worth it? How would you make sense of that story-wise? (I plan to have them take the rogue level at level 2)
Story-wise they're similar in nature so I don't think it would be hard to justify different clan masters teaching different subsets of skills. A small dip in rogue for some skill proficiencies and expertise is nice, but you'll only be getting an extra 1d6 damage once per turn from the sneak attack so combat effectiveness isn't a huge difference.
One thing to note though if you do decide to take a dip into Rogue, remember that sneak attack only activates on Ranged or Finesse weapons. So if you're intending to use the typical Spear or Quarterstaff Monk weapons they won't be able to sneak attack RAW since they lack the Finesse property, even though you can use your Dex modifier with them since they're Monk weapons.
Ya, ultimately what Tiger said above. You'd only get the extra d6 of damage once per turn and you'd have to use a dagger or shortsword as one of your attacks in order to get sneak attack. Also, you'd be delaying several of your important abilities by 1 level to get that extra damage and possible proficiency in stealth. You delay getting your shadow monk abilities at 3 to (total) level 4, Shadow step to 7, extra attack and magic attacks to 6, evasion to 8, etc.
So mechanically you'll be delaying several of your important abilities by 1 level to get the dip. It could pay off in the future with added extra abilities, but it also delays some of your additional damage by 1 level as well. Not to mention not getting your ASI/Feat to 1 level.
RP and story-wise it does sound cool and does make sense that you'd want to do it that way. Personally if it were me, I would wait until I got the shadow monk subclass at 3, take the level of rogue for 4, then go back monk for the rest of the levels. But its not the worst idea i've seen :)
Shadow monks are thematically similar to rogues enough as it is for RP purpose. Dipping early delays some really vital monk and subclass perks for only 1d6 once a turn. And late in the game/higher levels 1d6 per turn is negligible. But that's just my opinion. There are feats or other class dips that I would think do more for you
Shadowmonk 6/arcane trickster 14. Monk gives you extra attack, unarmored ac, shadow teleportation and useful ki spells. Arcane trickster gives familiar, disguise self, invisible mage hand, haste, spider climb 3d8 shadow blade and 7d6 sneak attack damage. Elven accuracy and easy access to advantage make sure you get at least one sneak attack in. Deflect missiles might also net you an out of turn sneak attack once in a while if you are lucky.
The biggest downside is the lack of devil's sight or blind fighting. You get blindsense, but it is not quite the same.
It's not mechanically very powerful, but thematic and fun.
Shadow monk 6 / Gloomstalker 4. The synergy is amazing. Disguise self spell. Add Wisdom to initiative. Ambush.
Pick up Control Flames and Druidcraft cantrips at 10th via Magic Initiate [Druid] (pretty late, I appreciate) for the ability to light, put out and manipulate small flames at will. This gives you huge potential to create darkness or dim light, which feeds into your darkness-fed powers. Entangle as the 1st level spell is handy for escape/control creating difficult terrain.
This is my plan for my Shadow Monk who is currently 5th monk.
Interesting. Our next campaign we are starting at 4. I planned to go gloomstalker to 4 then discover an order of shadow monks and join. The synergy feels off the chart and Hunter’s Mark with up to 4 attacks per turn seems insane. That’s potentially an extra 4d6 damage plus I’ll take Druid magic initiate with shillelagh so my club refluffed as a Kali stick does 1d8.
So, I can see why you'd go lvl 4 gloomstalker, ASI/Feat is nice, but you then lose out on the d10 dmg die for monk not being able to go 17 levels. Plus with a good enough wisdom/dex score, you'd have higher AC off the rip. Could just work it into your backstory to fit on why you multiclass. Not sure which race you're going, but since you'll be a front-line fighter for the most part you might want to take warcaster to keep hunters mark up since you'll likely have low con.
Generally I think martial class should wait until level 5 to multiclass to get extra attack (or for rogues to get the 3rd sneak attack dice and Uncanny Dodge). Monks also get stunning strike at that point which is a very powerful ability. Often 6 will get a character class features and the shadow monk gets a very good subclass feature at 6 in Shadow Step. The unarmed attacks also become magical at that level. I would wait until after 6 at the soonest to multi-class if you're looking to be optimal.
1 level in Rogue will get you 1 skill and 2 expertise in skills with 1 sneak attack dice. At Monk 1 / Rogue 1, you'll be a little more powerful than a Monk 2 but it is close. You get Ki at Monk 2 and that is when things really start getting interesting for the monk. At level 3, you'd have been way better off going Monk 3 instead of Monk 2 / Rogue 1. Same at levels 4 - 6.
All that said, there are plenty of reasons to take a rogue dip for a shadow monk and you certainly don't need to make optimal decisions for your character.
I think you should remove from your mind that the Monk has to be a religious figure that is good aligned. I am playing a Shadow Monk right now that will take 3 levels in rogue (at least, likely more) at some point. His order is charged with killing magic users that use their magics for evil purposes. He is a variant human and took Mage Slayer. I think at level 7 - 10 he'll take rogue for assassin.
Generally I think martial class should wait until level 5 to multiclass to get extra attack (or for rogues to get the 3rd sneak attack dice and Uncanny Dodge). Monks also get stunning strike at that point which is a very powerful ability. Often 6 will get a character class features and the shadow monk gets a very good subclass feature at 6 in Shadow Step. The unarmed attacks also become magical at that level. I would wait until after 6 at the soonest to multi-class if you're looking to be optimal.
1 level in Rogue will get you 1 skill and 2 expertise in skills with 1 sneak attack dice. At Monk 1 / Rogue 1, you'll be a little more powerful than a Monk 2 but it is close. You get Ki at Monk 2 and that is when things really start getting interesting for the monk. At level 3, you'd have been way better off going Monk 3 instead of Monk 2 / Rogue 1. Same at levels 4 - 6.
All that said, there are plenty of reasons to take a rogue dip for a shadow monk and you certainly don't need to make optimal decisions for your character.
I think you should remove from your mind that the Monk has to be a religious figure that is good aligned. I am playing a Shadow Monk right now that will take 3 levels in rogue (at least, likely more) at some point. His order is charged with killing magic users that use their magics for evil purposes. He is a variant human and took Mage Slayer. I think at level 7 - 10 he'll take rogue for assassin.
Fascinating, I'm working on an idea for a human variant mage slayer monk with the city watch background. I was considering a 3 level dip for either inquisitive (thematically a good tie in for the character) or swashbuckler for a stronger mechanical fit. I was thinking Kensei, but shadow just might beat out. Maybe he'll have to be a little bit of an undercover agent...
Generally I think martial class should wait until level 5 to multiclass to get extra attack (or for rogues to get the 3rd sneak attack dice and Uncanny Dodge). Monks also get stunning strike at that point which is a very powerful ability. Often 6 will get a character class features and the shadow monk gets a very good subclass feature at 6 in Shadow Step. The unarmed attacks also become magical at that level. I would wait until after 6 at the soonest to multi-class if you're looking to be optimal.
1 level in Rogue will get you 1 skill and 2 expertise in skills with 1 sneak attack dice. At Monk 1 / Rogue 1, you'll be a little more powerful than a Monk 2 but it is close. You get Ki at Monk 2 and that is when things really start getting interesting for the monk. At level 3, you'd have been way better off going Monk 3 instead of Monk 2 / Rogue 1. Same at levels 4 - 6.
All that said, there are plenty of reasons to take a rogue dip for a shadow monk and you certainly don't need to make optimal decisions for your character.
I think you should remove from your mind that the Monk has to be a religious figure that is good aligned. I am playing a Shadow Monk right now that will take 3 levels in rogue (at least, likely more) at some point. His order is charged with killing magic users that use their magics for evil purposes. He is a variant human and took Mage Slayer. I think at level 7 - 10 he'll take rogue for assassin.
Fascinating, I'm working on an idea for a human variant mage slayer monk with the city watch background. I was considering a 3 level dip for either inquisitive (thematically a good tie in for the character) or swashbuckler for a stronger mechanical fit. I was thinking Kensei, but shadow just might beat out. Maybe he'll have to be a little bit of an undercover agent...
Inquisitive with city watch is such a fun idea! I think Shadow or kensai could be interesting. Just make sure your weapon is finesse and I think you've got a cool idea on your hands. My only concern is the bonus action is pretty huge for monks and inquisitive rogues also use it a lot too. It's not that big a deal though.
The way I play my monk is prioritizing hitting the back line swishy stuff in encounters while also stunning dangerous enemies. I rarely use fury if blows. Our damage isn't amazing after people start picking up GWM or sharpshooter, but it's respectable. If you play like me I think you'd get more out of swashbuckler but it's not super thematic. I do like the mechanical synergies a lot better though. Focus on mobility and the added ways to sneak attack are pretty huge. Swashbuckler works well with kensai I think both thematically and mechanically. Lean more in on the swordsman aspect.
Right now I'm 8 shadow monk and I haven't decided on what my plan is. I feel like this is either the time to switch to rogue or just stay monk forever. I love a lot of the abilities the monk gets later. 11, 14, 17 and 18 are all super cool levels for monks, Shadow especially. I'm leaning just monk 20 right now.
Monk 8/rogue 9/fighter 3 is super strong though so who knows?
I have a shadow monk 6/assassin rogue 4 right now and my long term plan is monk 14/rogue 6. it's been a real blast to play, excellent at getting into combat and getting out before being in harm's way. I also took mobile for the free disengage which has been fantastic. I usually start by shadow stepping into the softest ranged target and unload on them with flurry and then run back out of everyone's range because you have so much movement. I'm also an excellent pickpocket/stealth/trap disarm/pick lock character.
I like it. I actually considered that at one point. Monk 14 is just so tempting. It's actually sorta the reason I decided to go all the way to 20 funny enough. The only stopping point for monk I could convince myself was worth it was 6 (subject to change). Evasion at 7 is really good but if you're going rogue 7 you don't need it twice and rogue 7 is better than monk 7. Stillness of mind is good when you use it. It doesn't come up all that often though. 8 for ASI is good, but not worth the two levels to stop here. Unarmored movement improvement at 9 is kinda fun but not worth stopping here. Same with Purity of Body at 10. 11 is very very good for shadow monks. At will invisibility when not in bright light and 1d8 martial arts. But from there, it's only 3 levels to the amazingness that is diamond soul and this is just worth going 6-14. If I'm already going to monk 14, monk 17 isn't so far off and it's amazing. Free reaction attack basically all the time and 1d10 martial arts dice. From there I thought, look how good 18 is! At will Greater Invisibility with damage resistance! Then it was pretty much fighter 2, rogue 2, or monk 20. Fighter 2 doesn't really fit for the theme of the character, you don't get all that much from rogue 2, and monk 20 gets you two more ki points and another ASI. Also the not great level 20 monk ability but options are limited in the usefulness of 1 level. Fighter for Dueling or Defense fighting style is good I suppose. But.. if you're already at monk 19, monk 20 is probably worth it.
I want my monk to have grown up in a clan practicing the way of the shadow, but the biggest drawback to playing a shadow monk is being able to sneak around but not having that sweet sneak attack bonus. What do you guys think? Is it worth it? How would you make sense of that story-wise? (I plan to have them take the rogue level at level 2)
Story-wise they're similar in nature so I don't think it would be hard to justify different clan masters teaching different subsets of skills. A small dip in rogue for some skill proficiencies and expertise is nice, but you'll only be getting an extra 1d6 damage once per turn from the sneak attack so combat effectiveness isn't a huge difference.
One thing to note though if you do decide to take a dip into Rogue, remember that sneak attack only activates on Ranged or Finesse weapons. So if you're intending to use the typical Spear or Quarterstaff Monk weapons they won't be able to sneak attack RAW since they lack the Finesse property, even though you can use your Dex modifier with them since they're Monk weapons.
Check out my latest homebrew: Mystic Knight (Fighter) v1.31
Ya, ultimately what Tiger said above. You'd only get the extra d6 of damage once per turn and you'd have to use a dagger or shortsword as one of your attacks in order to get sneak attack. Also, you'd be delaying several of your important abilities by 1 level to get that extra damage and possible proficiency in stealth. You delay getting your shadow monk abilities at 3 to (total) level 4, Shadow step to 7, extra attack and magic attacks to 6, evasion to 8, etc.
So mechanically you'll be delaying several of your important abilities by 1 level to get the dip. It could pay off in the future with added extra abilities, but it also delays some of your additional damage by 1 level as well. Not to mention not getting your ASI/Feat to 1 level.
RP and story-wise it does sound cool and does make sense that you'd want to do it that way. Personally if it were me, I would wait until I got the shadow monk subclass at 3, take the level of rogue for 4, then go back monk for the rest of the levels. But its not the worst idea i've seen :)
Shadow monks are thematically similar to rogues enough as it is for RP purpose. Dipping early delays some really vital monk and subclass perks for only 1d6 once a turn. And late in the game/higher levels 1d6 per turn is negligible. But that's just my opinion. There are feats or other class dips that I would think do more for you
Shadowmonk 6/arcane trickster 14. Monk gives you extra attack, unarmored ac, shadow teleportation and useful ki spells. Arcane trickster gives familiar, disguise self, invisible mage hand, haste, spider climb 3d8 shadow blade and 7d6 sneak attack damage. Elven accuracy and easy access to advantage make sure you get at least one sneak attack in. Deflect missiles might also net you an out of turn sneak attack once in a while if you are lucky.
The biggest downside is the lack of devil's sight or blind fighting. You get blindsense, but it is not quite the same.
It's not mechanically very powerful, but thematic and fun.
Shadow monk 6 / Gloomstalker 4. The synergy is amazing. Disguise self spell. Add Wisdom to initiative. Ambush.
Pick up Control Flames and Druidcraft cantrips at 10th via Magic Initiate [Druid] (pretty late, I appreciate) for the ability to light, put out and manipulate small flames at will. This gives you huge potential to create darkness or dim light, which feeds into your darkness-fed powers. Entangle as the 1st level spell is handy for escape/control creating difficult terrain.
This is my plan for my Shadow Monk who is currently 5th monk.
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Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
Interesting. Our next campaign we are starting at 4. I planned to go gloomstalker to 4 then discover an order of shadow monks and join. The synergy feels off the chart and Hunter’s Mark with up to 4 attacks per turn seems insane. That’s potentially an extra 4d6 damage plus I’ll take Druid magic initiate with shillelagh so my club refluffed as a Kali stick does 1d8.
So, I can see why you'd go lvl 4 gloomstalker, ASI/Feat is nice, but you then lose out on the d10 dmg die for monk not being able to go 17 levels. Plus with a good enough wisdom/dex score, you'd have higher AC off the rip. Could just work it into your backstory to fit on why you multiclass.
Not sure which race you're going, but since you'll be a front-line fighter for the most part you might want to take warcaster to keep hunters mark up since you'll likely have low con.
Generally I think martial class should wait until level 5 to multiclass to get extra attack (or for rogues to get the 3rd sneak attack dice and Uncanny Dodge). Monks also get stunning strike at that point which is a very powerful ability. Often 6 will get a character class features and the shadow monk gets a very good subclass feature at 6 in Shadow Step. The unarmed attacks also become magical at that level. I would wait until after 6 at the soonest to multi-class if you're looking to be optimal.
1 level in Rogue will get you 1 skill and 2 expertise in skills with 1 sneak attack dice. At Monk 1 / Rogue 1, you'll be a little more powerful than a Monk 2 but it is close. You get Ki at Monk 2 and that is when things really start getting interesting for the monk. At level 3, you'd have been way better off going Monk 3 instead of Monk 2 / Rogue 1. Same at levels 4 - 6.
All that said, there are plenty of reasons to take a rogue dip for a shadow monk and you certainly don't need to make optimal decisions for your character.
I think you should remove from your mind that the Monk has to be a religious figure that is good aligned. I am playing a Shadow Monk right now that will take 3 levels in rogue (at least, likely more) at some point. His order is charged with killing magic users that use their magics for evil purposes. He is a variant human and took Mage Slayer. I think at level 7 - 10 he'll take rogue for assassin.
Fascinating, I'm working on an idea for a human variant mage slayer monk with the city watch background. I was considering a 3 level dip for either inquisitive (thematically a good tie in for the character) or swashbuckler for a stronger mechanical fit. I was thinking Kensei, but shadow just might beat out. Maybe he'll have to be a little bit of an undercover agent...
Inquisitive with city watch is such a fun idea! I think Shadow or kensai could be interesting. Just make sure your weapon is finesse and I think you've got a cool idea on your hands. My only concern is the bonus action is pretty huge for monks and inquisitive rogues also use it a lot too. It's not that big a deal though.
The way I play my monk is prioritizing hitting the back line swishy stuff in encounters while also stunning dangerous enemies. I rarely use fury if blows. Our damage isn't amazing after people start picking up GWM or sharpshooter, but it's respectable. If you play like me I think you'd get more out of swashbuckler but it's not super thematic. I do like the mechanical synergies a lot better though. Focus on mobility and the added ways to sneak attack are pretty huge. Swashbuckler works well with kensai I think both thematically and mechanically. Lean more in on the swordsman aspect.
Right now I'm 8 shadow monk and I haven't decided on what my plan is. I feel like this is either the time to switch to rogue or just stay monk forever. I love a lot of the abilities the monk gets later. 11, 14, 17 and 18 are all super cool levels for monks, Shadow especially. I'm leaning just monk 20 right now.
Monk 8/rogue 9/fighter 3 is super strong though so who knows?
I have a shadow monk 6/assassin rogue 4 right now and my long term plan is monk 14/rogue 6. it's been a real blast to play, excellent at getting into combat and getting out before being in harm's way. I also took mobile for the free disengage which has been fantastic. I usually start by shadow stepping into the softest ranged target and unload on them with flurry and then run back out of everyone's range because you have so much movement. I'm also an excellent pickpocket/stealth/trap disarm/pick lock character.
I like it. I actually considered that at one point. Monk 14 is just so tempting. It's actually sorta the reason I decided to go all the way to 20 funny enough. The only stopping point for monk I could convince myself was worth it was 6 (subject to change). Evasion at 7 is really good but if you're going rogue 7 you don't need it twice and rogue 7 is better than monk 7. Stillness of mind is good when you use it. It doesn't come up all that often though. 8 for ASI is good, but not worth the two levels to stop here. Unarmored movement improvement at 9 is kinda fun but not worth stopping here. Same with Purity of Body at 10. 11 is very very good for shadow monks. At will invisibility when not in bright light and 1d8 martial arts. But from there, it's only 3 levels to the amazingness that is diamond soul and this is just worth going 6-14. If I'm already going to monk 14, monk 17 isn't so far off and it's amazing. Free reaction attack basically all the time and 1d10 martial arts dice. From there I thought, look how good 18 is! At will Greater Invisibility with damage resistance! Then it was pretty much fighter 2, rogue 2, or monk 20. Fighter 2 doesn't really fit for the theme of the character, you don't get all that much from rogue 2, and monk 20 gets you two more ki points and another ASI. Also the not great level 20 monk ability but options are limited in the usefulness of 1 level. Fighter for Dueling or Defense fighting style is good I suppose. But.. if you're already at monk 19, monk 20 is probably worth it.
I had a lot of fun with a fallen assimar shadow monk/shadow sorcerer with an urchin background. Yes it was ridiculously edge-lord but she was great.