This build is all about the Pal6 ability Aura of protection and what might go well with it. I think that ironically, it's the conquest paladin that defends other characters best.
Level 1: Start as a paladin. Sword and board. Variant human bonuses to Cha (16) and Str (15?). Take whichever feat you like, but I think sentinel, resilient (Con) or inspiring leader work well here.
Level 2-6 or 7: Continue as a paladin. Take an oath of conquest. Boost your charisma at level 4.
So far, you're playing as a slightly underpowered melee combatant with an amazing channel divinity option and good DC on your spells. You won't be an amazing damage dealer, but you won't be useless. Find gauntlets of ogre power and you'll get more out of them than most people. Get plate mail and the defense fighting style and you have AC 21.
At either level 7 or 8: Switch to lore bard. At Bard 4, boost charisma to 20. At Bard6, pick up spirit guardians and maybe shield or counterspell, and sheathe your sword for most combats.
Comparison to cleric: You've got spiritual weapon and spirit guardians and a great AC just like a cleric, but you also have a really good Con save for concentration checks, counterspell or shield and cutting words as additional defenses, +2 to your initiative from jack of all trades, a ton of skills and expertise, and a high DC channel divinity option that doesn't require concentration and can lower enemies speeds to zero inside your spirit guardians. All the while you passively grant +5 to your allies saves, and anyone frightened by you will have disadvantage in attacking your allies, plus you could defend your allies extra with cutting words. And if your allies get knocked down you have lay on hands which can be potentially used far more times than a cleric has spell slots. And with your mount, you have awesome maneuverability outdoors. Plus all the skills can be a lot of fun.
Comparison to Bard: Do you like bardic inspiration? Being able to say "I made that work"? Think of how often that +5 save aura will come up. Yes, you get to the powerful bardic spells later. But in exchange, you get healing ability, damage ability, better armor, an broader (and editable) spell options.
Comparison to pure paladin: Slap on gauntlets of ogre power and you won't notice what's missing until level 11, but just when you would be adding 4.5 damage per hit, you're getting 3rd level bard spells like hypnotic pattern with DC17 (DC12 to your allies if they're in the zone with you). Then at level 12 or 13 when you get spirit guardians, you're doing as much damage as you would with your sword anyway. Higher spell slots means a more powerful armor of agathys (and aid) than you could normally get on your mount.
Comparison to Paladin/Hexblade: Unlike this common combo, you're not building for single target damage output. You're building for healing and protection.
I think it's solid, I like it! A lot of paladin-bard multiclasses suffer from the issue of relying on STR to carry out their front-liner role, but this circumvents the issue entirely by relying on other means of dealing close combat damage, like spiritual weapon and spiritual guardian.
What's more, in a combat where you're pulling out both spiritual guardians and weapon, you can just spend every turn using your action to dodge while your bonus action is spent on the weapon and guardians does its thing. You'd be incredibly tanky, while safe guarding your concentration and still busting out great damage turn after turn.
For the sake of expedience, it might be best to cap paladin at 6 and forgo the aura. Sure, the 7th level aura makes great synergy with your channel divinity, but it's nothing ground breaking. Now, if the build plans on including fear as part of your magical secrets at bard level 6, then I would strongly consider it. Even then, I might do something like paladin 6, bard 6, then pick up the 7th paladin level.
I think I agree with your order of things: Bard 6 before Paladin 7. But I thought it would be very groundbreaking! Can you tell me why it isn't that powerful? I picture enemies frozen in place not quite in reach of the Paladin's allies, the spellcasters. Perhaps unable to even reach the PalaBard himself. Just standing there where they can be peppered with arrows and cantrips.
If the conquest subclass doesn't add much, I'd consider picking a different subclass for Paladin. It would be nice to play someone optimistic and sunny and protective. I'm tired of this emo stuff. Let me know if you think there are good synergies with other subclasses.
I honestly think that the conquest paladin is your best choice for subclass when deciding to multi-class with bard. Spiritual weapon is the entire reason for this. Other paladin subclasses still want to use melee combat as their primary means of dealing with threats, and that means placing greater importance on STR or DEX. That's why hexblade's popular, the idea of consolidating main stats. But conquest is different, because you can just rely on pumping CHA all the way through because your spell DC has greater importance.
That said, the interaction between your CD and 7th level aura is nice, but I say it's nothing ground breaking compared to fear, as fear doesn't allow a save to be made if the paladin's still in sight. your CD can be overcome after each creature's turn. That's not bad, it's nice, but just that-- nice!
That also said, yeah, other paladin subclasses will work. However, I don't think they'll work quite as well from an offensive perspective, even when conquest is geared more towards support and the others more towards damage, once again thanks to spiritual weapon giving way to a sort of SADness. Now, if other subclasses could guarantee a pair of gauntlets or a belt, sure, then any is ultimately viable, but nothing is ever a sure thing when you're playing non-AL.
conquest is solid for support builds, but devotion (charm immunity bubble is worth a lot) and watchers (party-wide initiative proficiency!) are also fantastic.
a 1+ level dip into clockwork sorcerer, whether instead of or in addition to bard, is also great support, thanks in part to restore balance helping you or your allies get past spell resistance.
My suggestion would be going Paladin 2 initially and grab a damaging cantrip or two from Blessed Warrior because Bards have a notoriously limited damage cantrip selection. Then go Lore Bard 6 to give yourself a bit of time to determine what Paladin subclass would be most useful or fun for you to play. If you feel Conquest is not for you then you could grab both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian from Magical Secrets instead.
My suggestion would be going Paladin 2 initially and grab a damaging cantrip or two from Blessed Warrior because Bards have a notoriously limited damage cantrip selection. Then go Lore Bard 6 to give yourself a bit of time to determine what Paladin subclass would be most useful or fun for you to play. If you feel Conquest is not for you then you could grab both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian from Magical Secrets instead.
This is rather useless since the whole point of the Paladin levels is to get the Paladin AoP at level 6.
That said, I think the best race for this is probably half-elf or custom lineage, assuming SPA. Half-elf allows you to start with a 16, 16 and 14 so you can have decent Str, Cha and Con. CL allows you to start with Cha 16, Str 15 and Con 14 if you take the Resilient Con feat. Personally I'd opt for half-elf due to the slight boost to magical defence you get. Or you could just go all out cheese and play a yuan-ti pureblood and use Custom origin from Tasha's to boost Cha and Con. Same stats as the CL but no Resilient Con. Still pretty good, though. :)
My suggestion would be going Paladin 2 initially and grab a damaging cantrip or two from Blessed Warrior because Bards have a notoriously limited damage cantrip selection. Then go Lore Bard 6 to give yourself a bit of time to determine what Paladin subclass would be most useful or fun for you to play. If you feel Conquest is not for you then you could grab both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian from Magical Secrets instead.
This is rather useless since the whole point of the Paladin levels is to get the Paladin AoP at level 6.
That said, I think the best race for this is probably half-elf or custom lineage, assuming SPA. Half-elf allows you to start with a 16, 16 and 14 so you can have decent Str, Cha and Con. CL allows you to start with Cha 16, Str 15 and Con 14 if you take the Resilient Con feat. Personally I'd opt for half-elf due to the slight boost to magical defence you get. Or you could just go all out cheese and play a yuan-ti pureblood and use Custom origin from Tasha's to boost Cha and Con. Same stats as the CL but no Resilient Con. Still pretty good, though. :)
I don't see why my suggestion is useless. Bear in mind this being a support character, would being Paladin 2/Lore Bard 4 be inferior to Paladin 6?
Paladin 6 gives you more Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Extra Attack, Channel Divinity, Saving Throws Aura and Oath spells.
Paladin 2/Lore Bard 4 gives you a wider support spell list, more spell slots, Cutting Words, Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, Jack of All Trades and more proficiencies.
From a support characters point of view I don't see Paladin 2/Bard 4 being behind straight Paladin 6.
However if we take the characters to level 8. I feel Paladin 2/Bard 6 starts looking a lot better than Paladin 6/Bard 2 from a supporting character point of view.
My suggestion would be going Paladin 2 initially and grab a damaging cantrip or two from Blessed Warrior because Bards have a notoriously limited damage cantrip selection. Then go Lore Bard 6 to give yourself a bit of time to determine what Paladin subclass would be most useful or fun for you to play. If you feel Conquest is not for you then you could grab both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian from Magical Secrets instead.
This is rather useless since the whole point of the Paladin levels is to get the Paladin AoP at level 6.
That said, I think the best race for this is probably half-elf or custom lineage, assuming SPA. Half-elf allows you to start with a 16, 16 and 14 so you can have decent Str, Cha and Con. CL allows you to start with Cha 16, Str 15 and Con 14 if you take the Resilient Con feat. Personally I'd opt for half-elf due to the slight boost to magical defence you get. Or you could just go all out cheese and play a yuan-ti pureblood and use Custom origin from Tasha's to boost Cha and Con. Same stats as the CL but no Resilient Con. Still pretty good, though. :)
I don't see why my suggestion is useless.
For the reasons I gave you.
Bear in mind this being a support character, would being Paladin 2/Lore Bard 4 be inferior to Paladin 6?
Yes.
Paladin 6 gives you more Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Extra Attack, Channel Divinity, Saving Throws Aura and Oath spells.
Aura of Protection is arguably one of the best abilities in the game and the proposed character was built around it.
Paladin 2/Lore Bard 4 gives you a wider support spell list, more spell slots, Cutting Words, Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, Jack of All Trades and more proficiencies.
Paladins already have a decent list of support spells and you can still only have a single concentration spell going. Cutting words and bardic inspiration can be used a limited number of times and compete for the same resource, AoP works for every saving throw.
From a support characters point of view I don't see Paladin 2/Bard 4 being behind straight Paladin 6.
However if we take the characters to level 8. I feel Paladin 2/Bard 6 starts looking a lot better than Paladin 6/Bard 2 from a supporting character point of view.
How on Earth did you come to those conclusions my dude? A Paladin 6 is a beefier tank with more survivability and more passive support than a Bard 6 (even with 2 levels of Paladin). The Paladin6/Bard2 will also have access to Bardic Inspiration and Jack of All Trades so the only thing that a Bard6/Pally 2 has going for them is Additional Magical Secrets and BI recharging on a short rest. Paladin 6 also allows you to recharge a few spell slots as per Tasha's so even there the gap is smaller.
We just have different views on how to run a support character and that's totally fine. I just don't rate AOP as highly as you do and so I feel justified getting it later. Don't get me wrong I agree AOP is a fantastic ability but from a support point of view I feel getting the Bard levels in early is more useful.
Lets be honest here your AOP will in combat will most likely only affect you and another front liner/rogue, while this is nothing to sneeze at you are still only rocking 15 STR at level 6 compared to the 18s most other front liners have thus potentially reducing your damage output. Whereas my suggested build will rely more on cantrip damage which with 18 CHA will land more often than swinging a weapon.
Secondly a Paladin 6 cannot compare to the supporting capabilities of Paladin 2/Bard4 based purely on the fact they do not get Healing Word. Lets imagine the following scenario: your back line damage dealer does down, you are tanking in the front lines what can your Paladin 6 do? You will have to run to your fallen comrade, potentially eating a AoO then sheathe your weapon to cast Cure Wounds or use Lay on Hands. Or in a worse case scenario they are over 30 ft from you and you can't do anything except spend a turn getting to them and they stay down without doing any damage on their turn.
Now imagine a Paladin 2/ Bard 4 character in the same scenario. All they have to do is cast Healing Word and problem is solved. This character also better are preventing your allies from going down in the first place as Cutting Words could prevent a potentially fatal hit from landing or turn a fatal hit into a survivable one.
Lets move to the Level 8 example, your Paladin 6/Bard 2 will finally have access to Healing Word but my Paladin 2/Bard 6 character now has access to more potent and powerful concentration spells like Spirit Guardians and Hypnotic Pattern. Would your party benefit more from your AOP or having you deal tons of damage with Spirit Guardians/disabling a big group of enemies with Hypnotic Pattern.
We just have different views on how to run a support character and that's totally fine.
Again, this has nothing to do with your opinions on support characters, it's about the proposed build presented by OP. In case you didn't read it or forgot about it, the idea is to build the support character around the AoP. For some reason you ignore this and go "no, do this instead" which is (part of) what makes the advice useless. It's like if someone asks "I want to build a barbarian tank based around the Bear Totem but then just add tons of levels of fighter for lots of ASIs" and your reply is "you don't need Barbarian 3 for that, if you take only fighter levels you get more ASIs!" Basically you're missing the goal and answer a different question.
I just don't rate AOP as highly as you do and so I feel justified getting it later. Don't get me wrong I agree AOP is a fantastic ability but from a support point of view I feel getting the Bard levels in early is more useful.
What you "feel" is a bit irrelevant when compared to the facts and statistics...
Lets be honest here your AOP will in combat will most likely only affect you and another front liner/rogue, while this is nothing to sneeze at you are still only rocking 15 STR at level 6 compared to the 18s most other front liners have thus potentially reducing your damage output. Whereas my suggested build will rely more on cantrip damage which with 18 CHA will land more often than swinging a weapon.
Are you saying that the paladin and the other PCs are incapable of moving in to the range of the Aura? That's a bit of a weird forced limitation on the ability. Most players don't just statically stay in the same place the whole combat. If the aura is needed somehwere, you can of course move to where it is needed. Also, why do you put the extra burden of damage output on a support character?
Secondly a Paladin 6 cannot compare to the supporting capabilities of Paladin 2/Bard4 based purely on the fact they do not get Healing Word. Lets imagine the following scenario: your back line damage dealer does down, you are tanking in the front lines what can your Paladin 6 do? You will have to run to your fallen comrade, potentially eating a AoO then sheathe your weapon to cast Cure Wounds or use Lay on Hands. Or in a worse case scenario they are over 30 ft from you and you can't do anything except spend a turn getting to them and they stay down without doing any damage on their turn.
Now imagine a Paladin 2/ Bard 4 character in the same scenario. All they have to do is cast Healing Word and problem is solved. This character also better are preventing your allies from going down in the first place as Cutting Words could prevent a potentially fatal hit from landing or turn a fatal hit into a survivable one.
We can imagine all sorts of contrived scenarios but that's not really relevant. Of course you can make a scenario where your particular build is better but that serves no purpose what so ever. I'll just point out the fact that du to the magic initiatie feat which a human or a custom lineage can take at level 1, your statement that Paladin's don't have access to healing word is completely wrong. I'll also just point out the fact that you are wrong in your statement that you have to sheathe your weapon to use lay on hands.
Also, if you want to play the "what if" game, what about all the times where a +3 (or +4 or potentially even a +5) to a saving throw would halve the damage a character would take from a failed saving throw? Statistically you will prevent a lot more damage with better saves than with cutting words or bardic inspiration. Which, again, are limited resources and can only be used as a bonus action or a reaction. So that's what? Two-three rounds at most at this point?
Lets move to the Level 8 example, your Paladin 6/Bard 2 will finally have access to Healing Word but my Paladin 2/Bard 6 character now has access to more potent and powerful concentration spells like Spirit Guardians and Hypnotic Pattern. Would your party benefit more from your AOP or having you deal tons of damage with Spirit Guardians/disabling a big group of enemies with Hypnotic Pattern.
That, of course, depends entirely on the scenario. But as mentioned previously, you can only have one concentration spell going at any given moment and it costs limited resources. Also, Spirit guardians doesn't really deal "tons of damage" but that's a different topic. Suffice to say, the Paladin will have more HPs and more attacks making it a better support character.
My scenario is not a what if. Characters going down is something that will happen if your DM is trying to give your group a challenge and having Healing Word is a big advantage compared to having to rely on Cure Wounds or Lay on Hands. Again I am not saying there's anything bad about AOP. I am a big fan of it however like I've said before I just do not value it as highly in a support build. You also argue that your group can move into range of the aura well that's true but doing that basically invites the DM to throw Fireball like spells and effects at your group all day long and sure you may very well make the saving throw thanks to the aura but your entire party will end up taking damage regardless.
Also yes the OP wants to build around the Paladins AOP aura, I am by no means suggesting that he not get AOP. I am merely proposing a different progression that gets to AOP later.
And your suggest that Spirit Guardians doesn't do tons of damage may be true in terms of one big hit but the scenario changes if combat lasts longer. Lets compare it with the iconic Fireball (which I would like to point out is something the Lore Bard can also grab in lieu of Spirit Guardians).
Fireball hitting 3 enemies does an average of 84 damage (assuming failed saves).
Spirit Guardians hitting 2 enemies does an average of 27 (assuming failed saves). At first glance it is a massive disparity but Spirit Guardians can persist through multiple rounds of combat meaning the damage can ramp up and out damage Fireball if you combat lasts more than 3 rounds. Also you do not have to worry about friendly fire with Spirit Guardians, not to mention afflicting a handy speed debuff on enemies caught in the spell.
Lost and Lonely, while I see you arguing above and starting to dislike each other, I want to thank you both for your excellent input. While my original idea was to go towards AoP first and only after go to Bard6 for the spells, Lonely presents an argument for considering a different order of things. I will read all of both of your posts in detail as soon as I finish making my wife some rice. Thank you both again.
First, some history: I played basically this design as a Paladin6Bard6 in a one-shot my brother ran. The character was highly effective.
At one point, we sat down at the bar at the Magic Hat brewery, and suddenly realized that all the bar stools were mimics as the magic hat tried to possess a character each round. The druid cast thunderwave, knocking all the mimics away while thanks to the saving throw boost, all of us characters made our saves and got free. Then the magic hat kept trying to possess various characters while we were dealing with the mimics. We made every save, thanks to the aura. That was the encounter where the aura had the biggest impact, taking a potentially deadly encounter and making it easy. But it wasn't the only time it was noticed, helping caster allies maintain concentration.
I didn't keep a tally, but AoP put in a lot of preventative work. Every saved concentration check meant that I essentially gave one of our spellcasters another action and another spell slot. And then for the big battle, I pulled out an upcast spirit guardians.
My requests for advice are about these 3 categories: A) What subclass, racial, spell and feat decisions do you think would be advantageous? B) Are action, bonus action, and reaction all utilized well? C) And now that you've brought up the subject, what level progression is the best way to get to Pal7Brd6?
A) I like half elf or custom human, since many of the other races you mention probably aren't available to me, at least as the sort of person I want to play. Updated dragonborn might be an option, but I tend to stick to boring races. I wish I could make an ancients paladin work because I think that oath works really well with bard to role play someone who cares about doing good and right and doing heroics, but doesn't really care much for the word "responsibilities". But there's no doubt that it isn't the best oath for this build. I was thinking sentinel would make an excellent feat (though I also think that resilient: con is a great one!) because it would make this character even better not at doing damage but at keeping his spellcaster friends protected.
B) I figured that at level 13, reaction options include counterspell, cutting words and opportunity attacks (with sentinel), bonus action options include healing word, bardic inspiration, shield of faith, spiritual weapon, and action options include casting a spell, lay on hands, or if burst damage is needed, attacking with smite, or even dodging if spirit guardians is active. An upcast aid and upcast armor of agathys (with mount!) would be among my go-to spells before combat.
C) I'm glad you agree that there are lots of good options there. I am leaning towards Pal6 first, but you can make arguments for Bard6 first. For example, at level 11, I'd rather have my aura and have to make do with hypnotic pattern and upcast aid & armor of agathys than give up my aura for the option of spirit guardians and counterspell. Yes, counterspell is great, but being able to save against that spells' effects over and over without even expending a resource is even better!
First, some history: I played basically this design as a Paladin6Bard6 in a one-shot my brother ran. The character was highly effective.
On thing not to forget is that you will want to start out as a Paladin to get heavy armour. Otherwise you'll be reliant on Dexterity to get a decent AC which lowers your effectiveness over all. And since you already started out as a Paladin, well might as well go to level 6 before multiclassing.
I agree with those reasons. I imagined optimized starting scores at S13+1, D12, C14, I10, W8, H15+1 as a variant human (S14+1, C13 if we're also taking the resilient: con feat), or S15+1, D12, C13+1, I10, W8, H14+2 as a half elf. I imagined that wisdom was a safe dump stat because of proficiency in the saves, but Dex, Wis, and Int could be shuffled around depending on the personality I want to play.
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This build is all about the Pal6 ability Aura of protection and what might go well with it. I think that ironically, it's the conquest paladin that defends other characters best.
Level 1: Start as a paladin. Sword and board. Variant human bonuses to Cha (16) and Str (15?). Take whichever feat you like, but I think sentinel, resilient (Con) or inspiring leader work well here.
Level 2-6 or 7: Continue as a paladin. Take an oath of conquest. Boost your charisma at level 4.
So far, you're playing as a slightly underpowered melee combatant with an amazing channel divinity option and good DC on your spells. You won't be an amazing damage dealer, but you won't be useless. Find gauntlets of ogre power and you'll get more out of them than most people. Get plate mail and the defense fighting style and you have AC 21.
At either level 7 or 8: Switch to lore bard. At Bard 4, boost charisma to 20. At Bard6, pick up spirit guardians and maybe shield or counterspell, and sheathe your sword for most combats.
Comparison to cleric: You've got spiritual weapon and spirit guardians and a great AC just like a cleric, but you also have a really good Con save for concentration checks, counterspell or shield and cutting words as additional defenses, +2 to your initiative from jack of all trades, a ton of skills and expertise, and a high DC channel divinity option that doesn't require concentration and can lower enemies speeds to zero inside your spirit guardians. All the while you passively grant +5 to your allies saves, and anyone frightened by you will have disadvantage in attacking your allies, plus you could defend your allies extra with cutting words. And if your allies get knocked down you have lay on hands which can be potentially used far more times than a cleric has spell slots. And with your mount, you have awesome maneuverability outdoors. Plus all the skills can be a lot of fun.
Comparison to Bard: Do you like bardic inspiration? Being able to say "I made that work"? Think of how often that +5 save aura will come up. Yes, you get to the powerful bardic spells later. But in exchange, you get healing ability, damage ability, better armor, an broader (and editable) spell options.
Comparison to pure paladin: Slap on gauntlets of ogre power and you won't notice what's missing until level 11, but just when you would be adding 4.5 damage per hit, you're getting 3rd level bard spells like hypnotic pattern with DC17 (DC12 to your allies if they're in the zone with you). Then at level 12 or 13 when you get spirit guardians, you're doing as much damage as you would with your sword anyway. Higher spell slots means a more powerful armor of agathys (and aid) than you could normally get on your mount.
Comparison to Paladin/Hexblade: Unlike this common combo, you're not building for single target damage output. You're building for healing and protection.
Whad'ya think?
I think it's solid, I like it! A lot of paladin-bard multiclasses suffer from the issue of relying on STR to carry out their front-liner role, but this circumvents the issue entirely by relying on other means of dealing close combat damage, like spiritual weapon and spiritual guardian.
What's more, in a combat where you're pulling out both spiritual guardians and weapon, you can just spend every turn using your action to dodge while your bonus action is spent on the weapon and guardians does its thing. You'd be incredibly tanky, while safe guarding your concentration and still busting out great damage turn after turn.
For the sake of expedience, it might be best to cap paladin at 6 and forgo the aura. Sure, the 7th level aura makes great synergy with your channel divinity, but it's nothing ground breaking. Now, if the build plans on including fear as part of your magical secrets at bard level 6, then I would strongly consider it. Even then, I might do something like paladin 6, bard 6, then pick up the 7th paladin level.
I think I agree with your order of things: Bard 6 before Paladin 7. But I thought it would be very groundbreaking! Can you tell me why it isn't that powerful? I picture enemies frozen in place not quite in reach of the Paladin's allies, the spellcasters. Perhaps unable to even reach the PalaBard himself. Just standing there where they can be peppered with arrows and cantrips.
If the conquest subclass doesn't add much, I'd consider picking a different subclass for Paladin. It would be nice to play someone optimistic and sunny and protective. I'm tired of this emo stuff. Let me know if you think there are good synergies with other subclasses.
I honestly think that the conquest paladin is your best choice for subclass when deciding to multi-class with bard. Spiritual weapon is the entire reason for this. Other paladin subclasses still want to use melee combat as their primary means of dealing with threats, and that means placing greater importance on STR or DEX. That's why hexblade's popular, the idea of consolidating main stats. But conquest is different, because you can just rely on pumping CHA all the way through because your spell DC has greater importance.
That said, the interaction between your CD and 7th level aura is nice, but I say it's nothing ground breaking compared to fear, as fear doesn't allow a save to be made if the paladin's still in sight. your CD can be overcome after each creature's turn. That's not bad, it's nice, but just that-- nice!
That also said, yeah, other paladin subclasses will work. However, I don't think they'll work quite as well from an offensive perspective, even when conquest is geared more towards support and the others more towards damage, once again thanks to spiritual weapon giving way to a sort of SADness. Now, if other subclasses could guarantee a pair of gauntlets or a belt, sure, then any is ultimately viable, but nothing is ever a sure thing when you're playing non-AL.
conquest is solid for support builds, but devotion (charm immunity bubble is worth a lot) and watchers (party-wide initiative proficiency!) are also fantastic.
a 1+ level dip into clockwork sorcerer, whether instead of or in addition to bard, is also great support, thanks in part to restore balance helping you or your allies get past spell resistance.
The reason I think of the aura as fantastic is that it isn't concentration based. If, for example I pair it with bane...
My suggestion would be going Paladin 2 initially and grab a damaging cantrip or two from Blessed Warrior because Bards have a notoriously limited damage cantrip selection. Then go Lore Bard 6 to give yourself a bit of time to determine what Paladin subclass would be most useful or fun for you to play. If you feel Conquest is not for you then you could grab both Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian from Magical Secrets instead.
This is rather useless since the whole point of the Paladin levels is to get the Paladin AoP at level 6.
That said, I think the best race for this is probably half-elf or custom lineage, assuming SPA. Half-elf allows you to start with a 16, 16 and 14 so you can have decent Str, Cha and Con. CL allows you to start with Cha 16, Str 15 and Con 14 if you take the Resilient Con feat. Personally I'd opt for half-elf due to the slight boost to magical defence you get. Or you could just go all out cheese and play a yuan-ti pureblood and use Custom origin from Tasha's to boost Cha and Con. Same stats as the CL but no Resilient Con. Still pretty good, though. :)
I don't see why my suggestion is useless. Bear in mind this being a support character, would being Paladin 2/Lore Bard 4 be inferior to Paladin 6?
Paladin 6 gives you more Lay on Hands, Divine Health, Extra Attack, Channel Divinity, Saving Throws Aura and Oath spells.
Paladin 2/Lore Bard 4 gives you a wider support spell list, more spell slots, Cutting Words, Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, Jack of All Trades and more proficiencies.
From a support characters point of view I don't see Paladin 2/Bard 4 being behind straight Paladin 6.
However if we take the characters to level 8. I feel Paladin 2/Bard 6 starts looking a lot better than Paladin 6/Bard 2 from a supporting character point of view.
For the reasons I gave you.
Yes.
Aura of Protection is arguably one of the best abilities in the game and the proposed character was built around it.
Paladins already have a decent list of support spells and you can still only have a single concentration spell going. Cutting words and bardic inspiration can be used a limited number of times and compete for the same resource, AoP works for every saving throw.
How on Earth did you come to those conclusions my dude? A Paladin 6 is a beefier tank with more survivability and more passive support than a Bard 6 (even with 2 levels of Paladin). The Paladin6/Bard2 will also have access to Bardic Inspiration and Jack of All Trades so the only thing that a Bard6/Pally 2 has going for them is Additional Magical Secrets and BI recharging on a short rest. Paladin 6 also allows you to recharge a few spell slots as per Tasha's so even there the gap is smaller.
We just have different views on how to run a support character and that's totally fine. I just don't rate AOP as highly as you do and so I feel justified getting it later. Don't get me wrong I agree AOP is a fantastic ability but from a support point of view I feel getting the Bard levels in early is more useful.
Lets be honest here your AOP will in combat will most likely only affect you and another front liner/rogue, while this is nothing to sneeze at you are still only rocking 15 STR at level 6 compared to the 18s most other front liners have thus potentially reducing your damage output. Whereas my suggested build will rely more on cantrip damage which with 18 CHA will land more often than swinging a weapon.
Secondly a Paladin 6 cannot compare to the supporting capabilities of Paladin 2/Bard4 based purely on the fact they do not get Healing Word. Lets imagine the following scenario: your back line damage dealer does down, you are tanking in the front lines what can your Paladin 6 do? You will have to run to your fallen comrade, potentially eating a AoO then sheathe your weapon to cast Cure Wounds or use Lay on Hands. Or in a worse case scenario they are over 30 ft from you and you can't do anything except spend a turn getting to them and they stay down without doing any damage on their turn.
Now imagine a Paladin 2/ Bard 4 character in the same scenario. All they have to do is cast Healing Word and problem is solved. This character also better are preventing your allies from going down in the first place as Cutting Words could prevent a potentially fatal hit from landing or turn a fatal hit into a survivable one.
Lets move to the Level 8 example, your Paladin 6/Bard 2 will finally have access to Healing Word but my Paladin 2/Bard 6 character now has access to more potent and powerful concentration spells like Spirit Guardians and Hypnotic Pattern. Would your party benefit more from your AOP or having you deal tons of damage with Spirit Guardians/disabling a big group of enemies with Hypnotic Pattern.
Again, this has nothing to do with your opinions on support characters, it's about the proposed build presented by OP. In case you didn't read it or forgot about it, the idea is to build the support character around the AoP. For some reason you ignore this and go "no, do this instead" which is (part of) what makes the advice useless. It's like if someone asks "I want to build a barbarian tank based around the Bear Totem but then just add tons of levels of fighter for lots of ASIs" and your reply is "you don't need Barbarian 3 for that, if you take only fighter levels you get more ASIs!" Basically you're missing the goal and answer a different question.
What you "feel" is a bit irrelevant when compared to the facts and statistics...
Are you saying that the paladin and the other PCs are incapable of moving in to the range of the Aura? That's a bit of a weird forced limitation on the ability. Most players don't just statically stay in the same place the whole combat. If the aura is needed somehwere, you can of course move to where it is needed. Also, why do you put the extra burden of damage output on a support character?
We can imagine all sorts of contrived scenarios but that's not really relevant. Of course you can make a scenario where your particular build is better but that serves no purpose what so ever. I'll just point out the fact that du to the magic initiatie feat which a human or a custom lineage can take at level 1, your statement that Paladin's don't have access to healing word is completely wrong. I'll also just point out the fact that you are wrong in your statement that you have to sheathe your weapon to use lay on hands.
Also, if you want to play the "what if" game, what about all the times where a +3 (or +4 or potentially even a +5) to a saving throw would halve the damage a character would take from a failed saving throw? Statistically you will prevent a lot more damage with better saves than with cutting words or bardic inspiration. Which, again, are limited resources and can only be used as a bonus action or a reaction. So that's what? Two-three rounds at most at this point?
That, of course, depends entirely on the scenario. But as mentioned previously, you can only have one concentration spell going at any given moment and it costs limited resources. Also, Spirit guardians doesn't really deal "tons of damage" but that's a different topic. Suffice to say, the Paladin will have more HPs and more attacks making it a better support character.
My scenario is not a what if. Characters going down is something that will happen if your DM is trying to give your group a challenge and having Healing Word is a big advantage compared to having to rely on Cure Wounds or Lay on Hands. Again I am not saying there's anything bad about AOP. I am a big fan of it however like I've said before I just do not value it as highly in a support build. You also argue that your group can move into range of the aura well that's true but doing that basically invites the DM to throw Fireball like spells and effects at your group all day long and sure you may very well make the saving throw thanks to the aura but your entire party will end up taking damage regardless.
Also yes the OP wants to build around the Paladins AOP aura, I am by no means suggesting that he not get AOP. I am merely proposing a different progression that gets to AOP later.
And your suggest that Spirit Guardians doesn't do tons of damage may be true in terms of one big hit but the scenario changes if combat lasts longer. Lets compare it with the iconic Fireball (which I would like to point out is something the Lore Bard can also grab in lieu of Spirit Guardians).
Fireball hitting 3 enemies does an average of 84 damage (assuming failed saves).
Spirit Guardians hitting 2 enemies does an average of 27 (assuming failed saves). At first glance it is a massive disparity but Spirit Guardians can persist through multiple rounds of combat meaning the damage can ramp up and out damage Fireball if you combat lasts more than 3 rounds. Also you do not have to worry about friendly fire with Spirit Guardians, not to mention afflicting a handy speed debuff on enemies caught in the spell.
Lost and Lonely, while I see you arguing above and starting to dislike each other, I want to thank you both for your excellent input. While my original idea was to go towards AoP first and only after go to Bard6 for the spells, Lonely presents an argument for considering a different order of things. I will read all of both of your posts in detail as soon as I finish making my wife some rice. Thank you both again.
First, some history: I played basically this design as a Paladin6Bard6 in a one-shot my brother ran. The character was highly effective.
At one point, we sat down at the bar at the Magic Hat brewery, and suddenly realized that all the bar stools were mimics as the magic hat tried to possess a character each round. The druid cast thunderwave, knocking all the mimics away while thanks to the saving throw boost, all of us characters made our saves and got free. Then the magic hat kept trying to possess various characters while we were dealing with the mimics. We made every save, thanks to the aura. That was the encounter where the aura had the biggest impact, taking a potentially deadly encounter and making it easy. But it wasn't the only time it was noticed, helping caster allies maintain concentration.
I didn't keep a tally, but AoP put in a lot of preventative work. Every saved concentration check meant that I essentially gave one of our spellcasters another action and another spell slot. And then for the big battle, I pulled out an upcast spirit guardians.
My requests for advice are about these 3 categories: A) What subclass, racial, spell and feat decisions do you think would be advantageous? B) Are action, bonus action, and reaction all utilized well? C) And now that you've brought up the subject, what level progression is the best way to get to Pal7Brd6?
A) I like half elf or custom human, since many of the other races you mention probably aren't available to me, at least as the sort of person I want to play. Updated dragonborn might be an option, but I tend to stick to boring races. I wish I could make an ancients paladin work because I think that oath works really well with bard to role play someone who cares about doing good and right and doing heroics, but doesn't really care much for the word "responsibilities". But there's no doubt that it isn't the best oath for this build. I was thinking sentinel would make an excellent feat (though I also think that resilient: con is a great one!) because it would make this character even better not at doing damage but at keeping his spellcaster friends protected.
B) I figured that at level 13, reaction options include counterspell, cutting words and opportunity attacks (with sentinel), bonus action options include healing word, bardic inspiration, shield of faith, spiritual weapon, and action options include casting a spell, lay on hands, or if burst damage is needed, attacking with smite, or even dodging if spirit guardians is active. An upcast aid and upcast armor of agathys (with mount!) would be among my go-to spells before combat.
C) I'm glad you agree that there are lots of good options there. I am leaning towards Pal6 first, but you can make arguments for Bard6 first. For example, at level 11, I'd rather have my aura and have to make do with hypnotic pattern and upcast aid & armor of agathys than give up my aura for the option of spirit guardians and counterspell. Yes, counterspell is great, but being able to save against that spells' effects over and over without even expending a resource is even better!
On thing not to forget is that you will want to start out as a Paladin to get heavy armour. Otherwise you'll be reliant on Dexterity to get a decent AC which lowers your effectiveness over all. And since you already started out as a Paladin, well might as well go to level 6 before multiclassing.
I agree with those reasons. I imagined optimized starting scores at S13+1, D12, C14, I10, W8, H15+1 as a variant human (S14+1, C13 if we're also taking the resilient: con feat), or S15+1, D12, C13+1, I10, W8, H14+2 as a half elf. I imagined that wisdom was a safe dump stat because of proficiency in the saves, but Dex, Wis, and Int could be shuffled around depending on the personality I want to play.