I still think the class is quite badly designed and is only saved by it's subclasses and removing concentration from Divine Favor... (but why no upcasting? i.e. 1d4 for every 2 spell levels above 1st). DPR wise Paladin can keep up with Fighter and Barbarian, albeit falling behind the closer you are to a full adventuring day.
Since I say Subclass matters quiet a lot:
Ancients - Strong CC but mostly not great, took too much of a nerf on Aura of Warding and lacks DPR, you get Moonbeam and Ice Storm as spells but if you're relying on those, just play Druid instead. Easy homebrew to bring it more inline, just make Nature's Wrath cause damage 1d6 piercing damage each time a creature makes a saving throw against it.
Devotion - Sacred Weapon makes Devotion basically the most accurate subclass in the game... meaning you constantly cause damage and more of it.
Glory - Honestly don't get the point of this one, Smite + Channel Divinity for a lot of TempHP is okay, but that is two resources that need burning. It is tankier and faster than any other paladin but to a point where it doesn't matter, the DPR is worse then Ancients. Don't think Glory in it's current state is worth playing. I would personally homebrew it so Glory has immunity to the incapacitated condition from the haste spell and when they cast haste on self, they can perform 2 attacks from their haste action instead of 1, it'd double down on their athleticism and bring their DPR up to a decent level from level 9+.
Vengeance - Advantage is always good, but depends partly on party composition, if the bard is hitting things with Faerie Fire, your Vow of Enmity is doing less work but definitely a strong choice to take.
I could go on about other issues I see in the class design but I've mentioned those in these forums enough times before. I'll just summarise points instead:
- Paladin's Smite auto prepares the worst smite spell (divine smite) and gives 1 free casting of a 1st level divine smite which can become entirely redundant as a 1st level divine is only worth casting if you have no other options for your Bonus Action (which several builds do have better options)
- Channel Divinity, the subclass features that rescue the class rely on Channel Divinity and yet the maximum you ever get is 3, even Barbarians get 6 rages. At least both (Channel Divinity and Rage) recover 1 charge on short rest.
- Faithful Steed, if the free casting increased level with your Paladin level then it'd be good but as all this really gives you is a free 2nd level Find Steed every day, it's terrible at level 9 and higher.
- Restoring Touch, this feature is just too high level, in my opinion, at least removing Blinded, Deafened and Frightened should have come in way before level 14.
- Dead levels, 13 & 17, yes you get 4th & 5th level spells at these levels but 4th level spells are the most lackluster and 5th, you only get 2 5th level spell slots as a Paladin... I feel some extra features, even if they were just social or horizontal features should have appeared here.
- Abjure Foes feels underwhelming, unless you're CHA based... it's targeting too few an amount of creatures.
Overall, Paladin is playable, far more so than say Ranger, but that doesn't mean the class design isn't a mess right now and that the sublcasses aren't imbalanced, they are.
Fair enough. Yeah I'm playing an Ancients now (my 1st D&D build). 2024 nerfed its signature lvl 7 Aura from resistance to all magical damage to resistance to Radiant, Necrotic, and Psychic damage. That was a main draw for me, and it has saved our biscuits several times, especially combined with my regular Paladin aura, often resulting in 1/4 damage from a big spells.
The spells don't throw me off much. I find I'm mainly casting Bless (upcast for as many friends) and then go whack stuff. The change to Divine Favor makes it playable with Bless now, which is cool. But yeah, why no upcasting? Not sure there is much else I'd want to cast that is neither concentration nor full action cast. But I haven't even reached lvl 3 spells yet. That to say, seems a problem with Paladins in 2014 as well?
Channel Divinity - I only ever used mine to reclaim spell slots, since the 2014 Ancients' CDs aren't much. That is actually useful.
Smites - I can see making it a bonus action jamming up a lot of builds. Maybe just restricting to one Smite per turn is a better fix?
A main standout for me is Lay on Hands as a bonus action. Lay on Hands was another key attraction to me, but again since it consumes a full action in 2014, I find myself rarely doing it. I very much like the idea of swooping in, getting an ally on their feet, and dealing damage. Especially since I've been in situations where if I didn't deal with the foes surrounding us, they could easily just knock out my ally right back down. I agree though - the condition heals should come earlier.
Aura of Warding was too strong in 2014 but in 2024 it's too weak, so yeah, it needed more work in my opinion, the Nature's Wrath is the restrained condition mind you and restrained is a strong condition to inflict, but as it costs an action it's a bit underwhelming however it's too much for a Bonus Action too... Casting bless is fine, as for 2014, at 3rd tier, you get spirit shroud but that is from Tashas.. before that there was nothing until Holy Weapon, which is a 5th level spell, these are both concentration however.
The smites all have their own uses, it's just that Divine Smite, which use to be the best smite due to it having no action economy usage and not having to be cast as a spell in advance lost both of those advantages and gained nothing in return, making basically every other smite spell better than Divine Smite in 2024, Divine Smite's sole purpose now is just to be upcast to highest level on a critical hit. Blinding Smite is probably the best right now, at 3rd level, it inflicts the blinded condition and the target doesn't even get to roll a saving throw until the end of it's next turn.
Lay on hands as an action was always painful, as a Bonus Action it moves it more inline with Fighter's Second Wind, which is nice and while it can heal others, as the tank you're probably mostly going to use it on yourself.
Yeah it seems like they just tried to make several things into bonus actions, and let people choose, even though they all work so differently. Making so many key features in one class design compete for one action slot (before any additional feats or racial features) is really not great.
My main use of BA concentration spells like Smite Spells, Shield of Faith, etc. is to cast them if my Bless spell gets knocked off. A full action to recast Bless midway through a battle doesn't seem efficient.
But wait they got rid of Spirit Shroud from Paladins in 2024? That is one spell I am looking forward to trying in my 2014 game. Good damage potential and it's only a bonus action. Dang.
I still think the class is quite badly designed and is only saved by it's subclasses and removing concentration from Divine Favor... (but why no upcasting? i.e. 1d4 for every 2 spell levels above 1st). DPR wise Paladin can keep up with Fighter and Barbarian, albeit falling behind the closer you are to a full adventuring day.
I feel like that would be pretty overpowered. (the upcasting, that is)
I still think the class is quite badly designed and is only saved by it's subclasses and removing concentration from Divine Favor... (but why no upcasting? i.e. 1d4 for every 2 spell levels above 1st). DPR wise Paladin can keep up with Fighter and Barbarian, albeit falling behind the closer you are to a full adventuring day.
I feel like that would be pretty overpowered. (the upcasting, that is)
2d4 at level 9 and 3d4 at level 17, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. 2d4 is barely more (0.5) average damage than spirit shroud while 3d4 at level 17 is less (1.5) average damage than holy weapon and holy weapon has a much longer duration. The only way it becomes overpowered is with multiclassing but multiclassing paladin into Warlock or Sorcerer has always been slightly overpowered in 5E.
I still think the class is quite badly designed and is only saved by it's subclasses and removing concentration from Divine Favor... (but why no upcasting? i.e. 1d4 for every 2 spell levels above 1st). DPR wise Paladin can keep up with Fighter and Barbarian, albeit falling behind the closer you are to a full adventuring day.
I feel like that would be pretty overpowered. (the upcasting, that is)
2d4 at level 9 and 3d4 at level 17, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. 2d4 is barely more (0.5) average damage than spirit shroud while 3d4 at level 17 is less (1.5) average damage than holy weapon and holy weapon has a much longer duration. The only way it becomes overpowered is with multiclassing but multiclassing paladin into Warlock or Sorcerer has always been slightly overpowered in 5E.
Yeah it's always been overpowered. That doesn't mean we should buff it.
Yeah it's always been overpowered. That doesn't mean we should buff it.
Leaving classes underpowered because multiclassing is overpowered, is not an idea I can get on board with, it just means multiclassing needs to be redressed, which is a separate issue. The biggest issue is having to many half-caster spells be too easily upcast but in the case of what I purpose then Divine Favor isn't really keeping up with the spell slots it is consuming that well. That is really more of a question of if the current half-caster design (paladin & ranger) should be scrapped in favour of a different system/method, which I think the answer to that is a "yes". Ranger is borked and Paladin was only saved last second since Wizards some how heard people complaining about the issues with Paladin design (too much BA usage) and class identity during UA.
However, with that said, what I propose for Divine Favor is hardly adding more damage to a Warlock Build which does get Spirit Shroud (and by 5th level would be comparing 2d8 vs 3d4) and does not particularly add that much to the sorcerer multiclass either. Sure it adds a tiny bit but for Warlock it's a horizontal improvement and for Paladin/Sorcerer, you'd still be behind Paladin/Warlock(+pact of the blade).
It really is a delicate balance trying to give classes contours and definition (this but not that) while also allowing flexibility. The distinction between smites and smite spells in 2014 felt spurious and weird. Turning them all into bonus action spells makes some sense. But creating such intense competition for one part of your action economy feels like you're wasting part of the build. Because you kind of are.
Limiting it to once per turn (and still cost a spell slot) but perhaps weakening it to d6, but still keeping it a free tag-on to your hit would feel better. That way you would have more reason to use a smite spell, which would be the same damage + a rider. Smite spells are great, but because they compete with all the great concentration spells, it just makes more sense to vanilla smite while keeping Bless (or something else) up for the party. Except in certain circumstances. Again, that smite spells are BA keeps me interested to have one or two prepared to use in a pinch, but not as a primary tactic in a solid encounter.
Yeah it's always been overpowered. That doesn't mean we should buff it.
Leaving classes underpowered because multiclassing is overpowered, is not an idea I can get on board with, it just means multiclassing needs to be redressed, which is a separate issue. The biggest issue is having to many half-caster spells be too easily upcast but in the case of what I purpose then Divine Favor isn't really keeping up with the spell slots it is consuming that well. That is really more of a question of if the current half-caster design (paladin & ranger) should be scrapped in favour of a different system/method, which I think the answer to that is a "yes". Ranger is borked and Paladin was only saved last second since Wizards some how heard people complaining about the issues with Paladin design (too much BA usage) and class identity during UA.
However, with that said, what I propose for Divine Favor is hardly adding more damage to a Warlock Build which does get Spirit Shroud (and by 5th level would be comparing 2d8 vs 3d4) and does not particularly add that much to the sorcerer multiclass either. Sure it adds a tiny bit but for Warlock it's a horizontal improvement and for Paladin/Sorcerer, you'd still be behind Paladin/Warlock(+pact of the blade).
Really what you're asking for already exists in paladin's level 11 feature radiant strikes. That's better than what you propose due to it not working with (most) paladin multiclasses. Also, spirit shroud is concentration, but divine favor is not.
Yeah it's always been overpowered. That doesn't mean we should buff it.
Leaving classes underpowered because multiclassing is overpowered, is not an idea I can get on board with, it just means multiclassing needs to be redressed, which is a separate issue. The biggest issue is having to many half-caster spells be too easily upcast but in the case of what I purpose then Divine Favor isn't really keeping up with the spell slots it is consuming that well. That is really more of a question of if the current half-caster design (paladin & ranger) should be scrapped in favour of a different system/method, which I think the answer to that is a "yes". Ranger is borked and Paladin was only saved last second since Wizards some how heard people complaining about the issues with Paladin design (too much BA usage) and class identity during UA.
However, with that said, what I propose for Divine Favor is hardly adding more damage to a Warlock Build which does get Spirit Shroud (and by 5th level would be comparing 2d8 vs 3d4) and does not particularly add that much to the sorcerer multiclass either. Sure it adds a tiny bit but for Warlock it's a horizontal improvement and for Paladin/Sorcerer, you'd still be behind Paladin/Warlock(+pact of the blade).
Really what you're asking for already exists in paladin's level 11 feature radiant strikes. That's better than what you propose due to it not working with (most) paladin multiclasses. Also, spirit shroud is concentration, but divine favor is not.
Spirit Shroud is concentration but then Paladin gets Aura of Protection. That said I'd probably still take a feat just to keep it up, warcaster (charisma) is a good choice for Paladin. However, I do believe divine favor should still get the 1d4 for every 2 levels above 1st. It really isn't that significant a DPR increase.
Yeah it's always been overpowered. That doesn't mean we should buff it.
Leaving classes underpowered because multiclassing is overpowered, is not an idea I can get on board with, it just means multiclassing needs to be redressed, which is a separate issue. The biggest issue is having to many half-caster spells be too easily upcast but in the case of what I purpose then Divine Favor isn't really keeping up with the spell slots it is consuming that well. That is really more of a question of if the current half-caster design (paladin & ranger) should be scrapped in favour of a different system/method, which I think the answer to that is a "yes". Ranger is borked and Paladin was only saved last second since Wizards some how heard people complaining about the issues with Paladin design (too much BA usage) and class identity during UA.
However, with that said, what I propose for Divine Favor is hardly adding more damage to a Warlock Build which does get Spirit Shroud (and by 5th level would be comparing 2d8 vs 3d4) and does not particularly add that much to the sorcerer multiclass either. Sure it adds a tiny bit but for Warlock it's a horizontal improvement and for Paladin/Sorcerer, you'd still be behind Paladin/Warlock(+pact of the blade).
Really what you're asking for already exists in paladin's level 11 feature radiant strikes. That's better than what you propose due to it not working with (most) paladin multiclasses. Also, spirit shroud is concentration, but divine favor is not.
Spirit Shroud is concentration but then Paladin gets Aura of Protection. That said I'd probably still take a feat just to keep it up, warcaster (charisma) is a good choice for Paladin. However, I do believe divine favor should still get the 1d4 for every 2 levels above 1st. It really isn't that significant a DPR increase.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
They can stack but that is two bonus actions, two spell slots (both 3rd level) and you can not smite for 2 whole rounds. Unless you know you're gunna be in a several round encounter (6+), instead of a couple of rounds (2~5), you'd probably lose DPR from doing that.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
They can stack but that is two bonus actions, two spell slots (both 3rd level) and you can not smite for 2 whole rounds. Unless you know you're gunna be in a several round encounter (6+), instead of a couple of rounds (2~5), you'd probably lose DPR from doing that.
If I did my math right, divine favor catches up in under three rounds on average. Not very long at all.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
They can stack but that is two bonus actions, two spell slots (both 3rd level) and you can not smite for 2 whole rounds. Unless you know you're gunna be in a several round encounter (6+), instead of a couple of rounds (2~5), you'd probably lose DPR from doing that.
If I did my math right, divine favor catches up in under three rounds on average. Not very long at all.
Catches up to what? you need to supply more info, including the maths.
If you're saying it catches up to a Divine Smite then it must be remembered that Divine Smite is generally used on critical hits. A 1st level divine smite thus generally does an average DPR of 4d8 (or 18)
Divine Favor is used before you know there will be one, with a 5% chance to critical and 35% chance to miss, thus we can do 18/(2.5*(0.65+0.05)) to get 10.2857 attacks with divine favor to catch up to Divine Smite. Or 18÷(2.5×(0.8775+0.0975)) on advantage for 7.3846 rounds.
Given that Paladins generally use either two-handed melee weapons or versatile weapons with a shield, 10 hits normally takes 5 rounds to achieve and 8 takes 4, for PAM that can be potentially reduced down to 4 or 3 rounds (respectively). I'd still say casting a buff 1st round of combat (divine favor/spirit shroud/holy weapon) is often worthwhile but 2nd round is generally not worth while doing the same due to the average length of an encounter*. As a Paladin you still have a very limited number of spell slots, you also want to save some for smites, just encase you do critical hit.
*If you know the encounter will be longer, then obviously this changes.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
They can stack but that is two bonus actions, two spell slots (both 3rd level) and you can not smite for 2 whole rounds. Unless you know you're gunna be in a several round encounter (6+), instead of a couple of rounds (2~5), you'd probably lose DPR from doing that.
If I did my math right, divine favor catches up in under three rounds on average. Not very long at all.
Catches up to what? you need to supply more info, including the maths.
If you're saying it catches up to a Divine Smite then it must be remembered that Divine Smite is generally used on critical hits. A 1st level divine smite thus generally does an average DPR of 4d8 (or 18)
An average of 18 in 9.775% of rounds. Not very good.
Divine Favor is used before you know there will be one, with a 5% chance to critical and 35% chance to miss, thus we can do 18/(2.5*(0.65+0.05)) to get 10.2857 attacks with divine favor to catch up to Divine Smite. Or 18÷(2.5×(0.8775+0.0975)) on advantage for 7.3846 rounds.
That math assumes you will get a crit. in that round.
Given that Paladins generally use either two-handed melee weapons or versatile weapons with a shield, 10 hits normally takes 5 rounds to achieve and 8 takes 4, for PAM that can be potentially reduced down to 4 or 3 rounds (respectively). I'd still say casting a buff 1st round of combat (divine favor/spirit shroud/holy weapon) is often worthwhile but 2nd round is generally not worth while doing the same due to the average length of an encounter*. As a Paladin you still have a very limited number of spell slots, you also want to save some for smites, just encase you do critical hit.
*If you know the encounter will be longer, then obviously this changes.
As shown by my math, if you have even a decently long combat, it would be better to upcast divine favor.
Final note: resource management is significantly more difficult to calculate. I would assume, however, it would not effect dpr that much if you deal 2D8 less damage on a crit. from using a level 2 spell slot rather than level 3.
I do not know what you're trying to compare here? Are you talking about the DPR casting Divine Favor or Divine Smite in the first round over a 5 round encounter? If you critical with Divine Smite in any round, it'll still do just as much damage but Divine Favor doesn't, so this isn't really an apt comparison. Also the whole reason Divine Favor is viable is that over a 4 or 5 round encounter it will do more damage than a divine smite, else Divine Favor would be losing out to Divine Smite, you wouldn't generally cast it. In the previous post, I thought you were talking about casting Spirit Shroud 1st round and Divine Favor the 2nd? (or vice versa) there it would be no point.
Assuming each round has 2 attacks and the paladin has a 65% chance to hit, 5% to crit.
You are going to generally Divine Smite on a Crit, you wouldn't generally use it else wise. So how many rounds does it take to hit 36. Spirit Shroud takes 5.7; Adv 4.1, 2d4 takes 5.1; adv; 3.7 and a normal divine favor 10.2; Adv 7.4.
So for a normal adventuring day, waiting to critical hit and divine smiting is the optimal total damage, the problem is in fact the consistency and frequency of Critical Hits. Further too that, there is one build that Divine Favor (at 2d4) would do more DPR, and that is a PAM build, due to Pole Strike and Reactive Strike. It's simply more attacks and more attacks favors divine favor. However I am of the opinion that divine favor SHOULD do more DPR over an encounter than Divine Smite, that shouldn't even be a question, Divine Smite is too powerful of a NOVA on Critical hit, it is it's purpose.
Divine Favor is used before you know there will be one, with a 5% chance to critical and 35% chance to miss, thus we can do 18/(2.5*(0.65+0.05)) to get 10.2857 attacks with divine favor to catch up to Divine Smite. Or 18÷(2.5×(0.8775+0.0975)) on advantage for 7.3846 rounds.
That math assumes you will get a crit. in that round.
No it assumes you get a Critical in any round other then when you cast a BA buff, which is not an easy number to calculate. But to keep it easy, let's keep it to one encounter, 5 rounds and you decide to crit fish (no spirit shroud, no divine favor, only looking for crit)
Normal attacks, you have a 40.13% Chance to critical hit in those 5 rounds 1−(.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95)
Advantage attacks, you have a 64.15% Chance to critical hit in those 5 rounds 1−(0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025)
As we are going for total DPR only focusing on these factors, this would give you a DPR of 2.889 increase over 5 rounds for normal attacks or 4.618 for advantage, which is way more than Divine Favor gives. And this assumes you might not divine smite at all.
Your maths assumes you divine smite when you don't get a critical but that is a very sub-optimum way to divine smite, If you don't critical, you don't divine smite.
Now if there was only 1 encounter in a day and it was a long encounter, you'd have a point, but by level 9, you can easily be doing 3~8 encounters per adventuring day. You only have 2 3rd level spell slots. You'd use both resources in a single battle, leaving you weakened for any future encounter, as a Paladin you want to naturally spread your resource usage over a day. You can still use a 1st level Divine Favor for easier encounters where you might not want to use a Divine Smite even if you did critical and you might save the 2 spell slots for a single fight later in the day or you might use one earlier for a tougher battle while reserving one encase there is more fights.
As shown by my math, if you have even a decently long combat, it would be better to upcast divine favor.
Final note: resource management is significantly more difficult to calculate. I would assume, however, it would not effect dpr that much if you deal 2D8 less damage on a crit. from using a level 2 spell slot rather than level 3.
The closer you get to 10 rounds, the less DPR Divine Smite will appear to do, however encounters rarely last longer than 5, the average amount of rounds in combat is 3~5 and Paladin usually has a low Dexterity score, the 5th round often ends before getting to the Paladin's 5th turn. So in the majority of encounters, a Paladin will likely only get 3 or 4 turns, sometimes 5 on a good initiative roll...
Proving that Divine Favor would do more damage on 10 rounds of combat than a single Divine Smite isn't really proving anything, and as such, I'd say giving a higher DPR for 5 rounds of combat suffers the same flaw as 10 rounds, it's more turns then is generally seen for a Paladin in the average encounter.
Overall this is turning into a discussion of numbers that isn't really proving anything, it's not proving how this upcasting breaks anything. If you're only talking an extra 2.5 Damage over a single 5 round encounter, what is that breaking? That's less damage than taking the Duelling Fighting Style and further too that, I'd say it's also reliant on sub-optimum builds to begin with. The optimum viable build for a Paladin is to take PAM at level 4 then GWM or Warcaster at 8, the other at 12 and then get the +5STR at 16 with another half feat, for a Pure Paladin (no multiclass).
We have also shifted away from the topic, this is a huge tangent just focusing on only 2 spells.
I do not know what you're trying to compare here? Are you talking about the DPR casting Divine Favor or Divine Smite in the first round over a 5 round encounter? If you critical with Divine Smite in any round, it'll still do just as much damage but Divine Favor doesn't, so this isn't really an apt comparison. Also the whole reason Divine Favor is viable is that over a 4 or 5 round encounter it will do more damage than a divine smite, else Divine Favor would be losing out to Divine Smite, you wouldn't generally cast it. In the previous post, I thought you were talking about casting Spirit Shroud 1st round and Divine Favor the 2nd? (or vice versa) there it would be no point.
I'm doing the math for how many rounds a combat would need to be for divine favor to do more damage than if you would've cast divine smite in the first round. This is all purely based on action economy, because, as I pointed out, resource management is very difficult to take into account.
I'm not really sure what this means, "If you critical with Divine Smite in any round, it'll still do just as much damage but Divine Favor doesn't, so this isn't really an apt comparison." You do just as much damage as what? Divine Favor doesn't do what?
Assuming each round has 2 attacks and the paladin has a 65% chance to hit, 5% to crit.
You are going to generally Divine Smite on a Crit, you wouldn't generally use it else wise. So how many rounds does it take to hit 36. Spirit Shroud takes 5.7; Adv 4.1, 2d4 takes 5.1; adv; 3.7 and a normal divine favor 10.2; Adv 7.4.
You probably won't crit though. Even if you do, casting divine favor only prevents you from smiting on a crit for that one round. It's only a 9.775% chance of losing out on that damage. You do expend your level 3 spell slot, but you have one more, and even if you don't want to use it, you can just use a level 2 spell slot.
So for a normal adventuring day, waiting to critical hit and divine smiting is the optimal total damage, the problem is in fact the consistency and frequency of Critical Hits. Further too that, there is one build that Divine Favor (at 2d4) would do more DPR, and that is a PAM build, due to Pole Strike and Reactive Strike. It's simply more attacks and more attacks favors divine favor. However I am of the opinion that divine favor SHOULD do more DPR over an encounter than Divine Smite, that shouldn't even be a question, Divine Smite is too powerful of a NOVA on Critical hit, it is it's purpose.
Divine Favor is used before you know there will be one, with a 5% chance to critical and 35% chance to miss, thus we can do 18/(2.5*(0.65+0.05)) to get 10.2857 attacks with divine favor to catch up to Divine Smite. Or 18÷(2.5×(0.8775+0.0975)) on advantage for 7.3846 rounds.
That math assumes you will get a crit. in that round.
No it assumes you get a Critical in any round other then when you cast a BA buff, which is not an easy number to calculate. But to keep it easy, let's keep it to one encounter, 5 rounds and you decide to crit fish (no spirit shroud, no divine favor, only looking for crit)
It does, because casting divine favor with your level 3 spell slot doesn't prevent you from casting divine smite on a later turn, only on that one.
Normal attacks, you have a 40.13% Chance to critical hit in those 5 rounds 1−(.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95)
Advantage attacks, you have a 64.15% Chance to critical hit in those 5 rounds 1−(0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025)
As we are going for total DPR only focusing on these factors, this would give you a DPR of 2.889 increase over 5 rounds for normal attacks or 4.618 for advantage, which is way more than Divine Favor gives. And this assumes you might not divine smite at all.
Divine favor would only prevent you from smiting for one round, not 5.
Your maths assumes you critical hit when you don't get a critical but that is a very sub-optimum way to divine smite, If you don't critical, you don't divine smite.
Now if there was only 1 encounter in a day and it was a long encounter, you'd have a point, but by level 9, you can easily be doing 3~8 encounters per adventuring day. You only have 2 3rd level spell slots. You'd use both resources in a single battle, leaving you weakened for any future encounter, as a Paladin you want to naturally spread your resource usage over a day. You can still use a 1st level Divine Favor for easier encounters where you might not want to use a Divine Smite even if you did critical and you might save the 2 spell slots for a single fight later in the day or you might use one earlier for a tougher battle while reserving one encase there is more fights.
As shown by my math, if you have even a decently long combat, it would be better to upcast divine favor.
Final note: resource management is significantly more difficult to calculate. I would assume, however, it would not effect dpr that much if you deal 2D8 less damage on a crit. from using a level 2 spell slot rather than level 3.
The closer you get to 10 rounds, the less DPR Divine Smite will appear to do, however encounters rarely last longer than 5, the average amount of rounds in combat is 3~5 and Paladin usually has a low Dexterity score, the 5th round often ends before getting to the Paladin's 5th turn. So in the majority of encounters, a Paladin will likely only get 3 or 4 turns, sometimes 5 on a good initiative roll...
Proving that Divine Favor would do more damage on 10 rounds of combat than Divine Smite isn't really proving anything, and as such, I'd say giving a higher DPR for 5 rounds of combat suffers the same flaw as 10 rounds, it's more turns then is generally seen for a Paladin in the average encounter.
I proved that divine favor would do more damage on 3 rounds of combat.
I'm going to cut this back down, it mostly looks like you're arguing against points I never made on maths that is somewhat shaky while disregarding the importance of resource usage for Paladin. I could go over every point but it's not worth it, you'll just try and counter them.
My original point where I believe this all spawned from is that you said that a Paladin would cast both Divine Smite and Spirit Shroud since concentration only applies to Spirit Shroud. I said that this is pointless, you lose too much DPR from doing this, you wouldn't cast both in one encounter.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
They can stack but that is two bonus actions, two spell slots (both 3rd level) and you can not smite for 2 whole rounds. Unless you know you're gunna be in a several round encounter (6+), instead of a couple of rounds (2~5), you'd probably lose DPR from doing that.
When I said you lose DPR, I did not mean you lose DPR vs. casting a 3rd level smite, I meant you lose DPR against saving the spell slot for a latter encounter.
If you have 4 encounters.
Encounter 1, you cast Divine Favor 1st round (with proposed upcasting), you cast spirit shroud 2nd round, you get 1-3 more rounds with 2d4+1d8.
Encounter 2-4 you can't use another 3rd level slot. So no more bonuses.
DPR increase from 2 3rd level slots would be (going for 4 turns as that is more realistic) 8 * 2d4 + 6 * 1d8 for an average of 67
Now if you instead do
Encounter 1, you cast Divine Favor, then just attack every other round
Encounter 2, you cast Divine Favor, then just attack every other round
Encounter 3 & 4 you use nothing since no more 3rd level slots.
You would instead get 8*1d8 + 8*1d8 for an average of 72 damage. If you instead have an upcasted Divine Favor like I recommend, it would be 80. This increased damage is hardly breaking anything, it'd be a 0.5 DPR increase over 16 (4*4) rounds of combat
The increase here is little but the consistency factor of not having DPR based on a concentration spell here is good (and more so a spell that is in the PHB!), Paladin is a front-liner that takes a lot of damage, that Paladin's DPR theoretically relies on spells that are concentration to keep Paladin as viable as Barbarian or Fighter, isn't great but the concentration failures aren't going to occur that often for a Paladin due to the higher AC and higher saving throws, so it's hard to exactly map where Paladin is. If Paladin had a good 3rd level option with no concentration (and in the PHB), we would know exactly where Paladin is and we do not need to worry about a Paladin casting 2 buffs in 1st and 2nd round, it's a sub-optimum choice of resource management and it's really not going to NOVA Spike the damage like the triple Smiting of 2014 did.
Now I did mention bonus actions and Divine Smite, but I did not say I'd be using the 3rd level slot for the Smite, I am just pointing out that at this point, since resource management would be better to not do this, it would the case you can save the 2nd round BA for a smite or other action. Personally my recommendation for Paladin remains PAM, 2-Handed Polearms being even more preferable (for GWM) but Spears and quarterstaves also work if wanting to use a Shield.
What do folks think of 2024 Paladins so far?
I'm running one in a 2014 rules campaign. We may switch to 2024. Seems like decent re-balance to the main class. Not sure about subclass changes.
Thoughts?
I still think the class is quite badly designed and is only saved by it's subclasses and removing concentration from Divine Favor... (but why no upcasting? i.e. 1d4 for every 2 spell levels above 1st). DPR wise Paladin can keep up with Fighter and Barbarian, albeit falling behind the closer you are to a full adventuring day.
Since I say Subclass matters quiet a lot:
Ancients - Strong CC but mostly not great, took too much of a nerf on Aura of Warding and lacks DPR, you get Moonbeam and Ice Storm as spells but if you're relying on those, just play Druid instead. Easy homebrew to bring it more inline, just make Nature's Wrath cause damage 1d6 piercing damage each time a creature makes a saving throw against it.
Devotion - Sacred Weapon makes Devotion basically the most accurate subclass in the game... meaning you constantly cause damage and more of it.
Glory - Honestly don't get the point of this one, Smite + Channel Divinity for a lot of TempHP is okay, but that is two resources that need burning. It is tankier and faster than any other paladin but to a point where it doesn't matter, the DPR is worse then Ancients. Don't think Glory in it's current state is worth playing. I would personally homebrew it so Glory has immunity to the incapacitated condition from the haste spell and when they cast haste on self, they can perform 2 attacks from their haste action instead of 1, it'd double down on their athleticism and bring their DPR up to a decent level from level 9+.
Vengeance - Advantage is always good, but depends partly on party composition, if the bard is hitting things with Faerie Fire, your Vow of Enmity is doing less work but definitely a strong choice to take.
I could go on about other issues I see in the class design but I've mentioned those in these forums enough times before. I'll just summarise points instead:
- Paladin's Smite auto prepares the worst smite spell (divine smite) and gives 1 free casting of a 1st level divine smite which can become entirely redundant as a 1st level divine is only worth casting if you have no other options for your Bonus Action (which several builds do have better options)
- Channel Divinity, the subclass features that rescue the class rely on Channel Divinity and yet the maximum you ever get is 3, even Barbarians get 6 rages. At least both (Channel Divinity and Rage) recover 1 charge on short rest.
- Faithful Steed, if the free casting increased level with your Paladin level then it'd be good but as all this really gives you is a free 2nd level Find Steed every day, it's terrible at level 9 and higher.
- Restoring Touch, this feature is just too high level, in my opinion, at least removing Blinded, Deafened and Frightened should have come in way before level 14.
- Dead levels, 13 & 17, yes you get 4th & 5th level spells at these levels but 4th level spells are the most lackluster and 5th, you only get 2 5th level spell slots as a Paladin... I feel some extra features, even if they were just social or horizontal features should have appeared here.
- Abjure Foes feels underwhelming, unless you're CHA based... it's targeting too few an amount of creatures.
Overall, Paladin is playable, far more so than say Ranger, but that doesn't mean the class design isn't a mess right now and that the sublcasses aren't imbalanced, they are.
Fair enough. Yeah I'm playing an Ancients now (my 1st D&D build). 2024 nerfed its signature lvl 7 Aura from resistance to all magical damage to resistance to Radiant, Necrotic, and Psychic damage. That was a main draw for me, and it has saved our biscuits several times, especially combined with my regular Paladin aura, often resulting in 1/4 damage from a big spells.
The spells don't throw me off much. I find I'm mainly casting Bless (upcast for as many friends) and then go whack stuff. The change to Divine Favor makes it playable with Bless now, which is cool. But yeah, why no upcasting? Not sure there is much else I'd want to cast that is neither concentration nor full action cast. But I haven't even reached lvl 3 spells yet. That to say, seems a problem with Paladins in 2014 as well?
Channel Divinity - I only ever used mine to reclaim spell slots, since the 2014 Ancients' CDs aren't much. That is actually useful.
Smites - I can see making it a bonus action jamming up a lot of builds. Maybe just restricting to one Smite per turn is a better fix?
A main standout for me is Lay on Hands as a bonus action. Lay on Hands was another key attraction to me, but again since it consumes a full action in 2014, I find myself rarely doing it. I very much like the idea of swooping in, getting an ally on their feet, and dealing damage. Especially since I've been in situations where if I didn't deal with the foes surrounding us, they could easily just knock out my ally right back down. I agree though - the condition heals should come earlier.
Aura of Warding was too strong in 2014 but in 2024 it's too weak, so yeah, it needed more work in my opinion, the Nature's Wrath is the restrained condition mind you and restrained is a strong condition to inflict, but as it costs an action it's a bit underwhelming however it's too much for a Bonus Action too... Casting bless is fine, as for 2014, at 3rd tier, you get spirit shroud but that is from Tashas.. before that there was nothing until Holy Weapon, which is a 5th level spell, these are both concentration however.
The smites all have their own uses, it's just that Divine Smite, which use to be the best smite due to it having no action economy usage and not having to be cast as a spell in advance lost both of those advantages and gained nothing in return, making basically every other smite spell better than Divine Smite in 2024, Divine Smite's sole purpose now is just to be upcast to highest level on a critical hit. Blinding Smite is probably the best right now, at 3rd level, it inflicts the blinded condition and the target doesn't even get to roll a saving throw until the end of it's next turn.
Lay on hands as an action was always painful, as a Bonus Action it moves it more inline with Fighter's Second Wind, which is nice and while it can heal others, as the tank you're probably mostly going to use it on yourself.
Yeah it seems like they just tried to make several things into bonus actions, and let people choose, even though they all work so differently. Making so many key features in one class design compete for one action slot (before any additional feats or racial features) is really not great.
My main use of BA concentration spells like Smite Spells, Shield of Faith, etc. is to cast them if my Bless spell gets knocked off. A full action to recast Bless midway through a battle doesn't seem efficient.
But wait they got rid of Spirit Shroud from Paladins in 2024? That is one spell I am looking forward to trying in my 2014 game. Good damage potential and it's only a bonus action. Dang.
I feel like that would be pretty overpowered. (the upcasting, that is)
2d4 at level 9 and 3d4 at level 17, I don't think it'd be that overpowered. 2d4 is barely more (0.5) average damage than spirit shroud while 3d4 at level 17 is less (1.5) average damage than holy weapon and holy weapon has a much longer duration. The only way it becomes overpowered is with multiclassing but multiclassing paladin into Warlock or Sorcerer has always been slightly overpowered in 5E.
Yeah it's always been overpowered. That doesn't mean we should buff it.
Leaving classes underpowered because multiclassing is overpowered, is not an idea I can get on board with, it just means multiclassing needs to be redressed, which is a separate issue. The biggest issue is having to many half-caster spells be too easily upcast but in the case of what I purpose then Divine Favor isn't really keeping up with the spell slots it is consuming that well. That is really more of a question of if the current half-caster design (paladin & ranger) should be scrapped in favour of a different system/method, which I think the answer to that is a "yes". Ranger is borked and Paladin was only saved last second since Wizards some how heard people complaining about the issues with Paladin design (too much BA usage) and class identity during UA.
However, with that said, what I propose for Divine Favor is hardly adding more damage to a Warlock Build which does get Spirit Shroud (and by 5th level would be comparing 2d8 vs 3d4) and does not particularly add that much to the sorcerer multiclass either. Sure it adds a tiny bit but for Warlock it's a horizontal improvement and for Paladin/Sorcerer, you'd still be behind Paladin/Warlock(+pact of the blade).
It really is a delicate balance trying to give classes contours and definition (this but not that) while also allowing flexibility. The distinction between smites and smite spells in 2014 felt spurious and weird. Turning them all into bonus action spells makes some sense. But creating such intense competition for one part of your action economy feels like you're wasting part of the build. Because you kind of are.
Limiting it to once per turn (and still cost a spell slot) but perhaps weakening it to d6, but still keeping it a free tag-on to your hit would feel better. That way you would have more reason to use a smite spell, which would be the same damage + a rider. Smite spells are great, but because they compete with all the great concentration spells, it just makes more sense to vanilla smite while keeping Bless (or something else) up for the party. Except in certain circumstances. Again, that smite spells are BA keeps me interested to have one or two prepared to use in a pinch, but not as a primary tactic in a solid encounter.
Really what you're asking for already exists in paladin's level 11 feature radiant strikes. That's better than what you propose due to it not working with (most) paladin multiclasses. Also, spirit shroud is concentration, but divine favor is not.
Spirit Shroud is concentration but then Paladin gets Aura of Protection. That said I'd probably still take a feat just to keep it up, warcaster (charisma) is a good choice for Paladin. However, I do believe divine favor should still get the 1d4 for every 2 levels above 1st. It really isn't that significant a DPR increase.
The quite significant consequence of divine favor not being concentration is that it stacks with spirit shroud.
They can stack but that is two bonus actions, two spell slots (both 3rd level) and you can not smite for 2 whole rounds. Unless you know you're gunna be in a several round encounter (6+), instead of a couple of rounds (2~5), you'd probably lose DPR from doing that.
If I did my math right, divine favor catches up in under three rounds on average. Not very long at all.
Catches up to what? you need to supply more info, including the maths.
If you're saying it catches up to a Divine Smite then it must be remembered that Divine Smite is generally used on critical hits. A 1st level divine smite thus generally does an average DPR of 4d8 (or 18)
Divine Favor is used before you know there will be one, with a 5% chance to critical and 35% chance to miss, thus we can do 18/(2.5*(0.65+0.05)) to get 10.2857 attacks with divine favor to catch up to Divine Smite. Or 18÷(2.5×(0.8775+0.0975)) on advantage for 7.3846 rounds.
Given that Paladins generally use either two-handed melee weapons or versatile weapons with a shield, 10 hits normally takes 5 rounds to achieve and 8 takes 4, for PAM that can be potentially reduced down to 4 or 3 rounds (respectively). I'd still say casting a buff 1st round of combat (divine favor/spirit shroud/holy weapon) is often worthwhile but 2nd round is generally not worth while doing the same due to the average length of an encounter*. As a Paladin you still have a very limited number of spell slots, you also want to save some for smites, just encase you do critical hit.
*If you know the encounter will be longer, then obviously this changes.
To clarify:
Level 9 Paladin:
divine smite upcast to level 3 = 4D8
divine favor with your proposed upcast = 2D4 per hit
(18*.8775)/(5*2[extra attack]*.65) That gives 2.43
Taking into account crits:
If smite on second attack or crits:
(18*.60 + 2[.0975*18])/(5*2*.7) = 2.04428571429
Smites whenever hits:
(18*.(1-.4^2) + 36*(.05+.05*.35))/7 = 2.50714285714
An average of 18 in 9.775% of rounds. Not very good.
That math assumes you will get a crit. in that round.
As shown by my math, if you have even a decently long combat, it would be better to upcast divine favor.
Final note: resource management is significantly more difficult to calculate. I would assume, however, it would not effect dpr that much if you deal 2D8 less damage on a crit. from using a level 2 spell slot rather than level 3.
Assuming each round has 2 attacks and the paladin has a 65% chance to hit, 5% to crit.
Spirit Shroud = 2*(~4.5*(0.65+0.05)) = 6.3; Adv. = 8.775
Divine Favor (if 2d4 could be upcasted) (2 hits) = 2*(5*(0.65+0.05)) = 7; Adv. = 9.75
Divine Favor (2 hits) = 2*(2.5*(0.65+0.05)) = 3.5; Adv = 4.875
Divine Smite = 4d8 = 18; Crit = 36
You are going to generally Divine Smite on a Crit, you wouldn't generally use it else wise. So how many rounds does it take to hit 36. Spirit Shroud takes 5.7; Adv 4.1, 2d4 takes 5.1; adv; 3.7 and a normal divine favor 10.2; Adv 7.4.
So for a normal adventuring day, waiting to critical hit and divine smiting is the optimal total damage, the problem is in fact the consistency and frequency of Critical Hits. Further too that, there is one build that Divine Favor (at 2d4) would do more DPR, and that is a PAM build, due to Pole Strike and Reactive Strike. It's simply more attacks and more attacks favors divine favor. However I am of the opinion that divine favor SHOULD do more DPR over an encounter than Divine Smite, that shouldn't even be a question, Divine Smite is too powerful of a NOVA on Critical hit, it is it's purpose.
No it assumes you get a Critical in any round other then when you cast a BA buff, which is not an easy number to calculate. But to keep it easy, let's keep it to one encounter, 5 rounds and you decide to crit fish (no spirit shroud, no divine favor, only looking for crit)
Normal attacks, you have a 40.13% Chance to critical hit in those 5 rounds 1−(.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95×.95)
Advantage attacks, you have a 64.15% Chance to critical hit in those 5 rounds 1−(0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025×0.9025)
As we are going for total DPR only focusing on these factors, this would give you a DPR of 2.889 increase over 5 rounds for normal attacks or 4.618 for advantage, which is way more than Divine Favor gives. And this assumes you might not divine smite at all.
Your maths assumes you divine smite when you don't get a critical but that is a very sub-optimum way to divine smite, If you don't critical, you don't divine smite.
Now if there was only 1 encounter in a day and it was a long encounter, you'd have a point, but by level 9, you can easily be doing 3~8 encounters per adventuring day. You only have 2 3rd level spell slots. You'd use both resources in a single battle, leaving you weakened for any future encounter, as a Paladin you want to naturally spread your resource usage over a day. You can still use a 1st level Divine Favor for easier encounters where you might not want to use a Divine Smite even if you did critical and you might save the 2 spell slots for a single fight later in the day or you might use one earlier for a tougher battle while reserving one encase there is more fights.
The closer you get to 10 rounds, the less DPR Divine Smite will appear to do, however encounters rarely last longer than 5, the average amount of rounds in combat is 3~5 and Paladin usually has a low Dexterity score, the 5th round often ends before getting to the Paladin's 5th turn. So in the majority of encounters, a Paladin will likely only get 3 or 4 turns, sometimes 5 on a good initiative roll...
Proving that Divine Favor would do more damage on 10 rounds of combat than a single Divine Smite isn't really proving anything, and as such, I'd say giving a higher DPR for 5 rounds of combat suffers the same flaw as 10 rounds, it's more turns then is generally seen for a Paladin in the average encounter.
Overall this is turning into a discussion of numbers that isn't really proving anything, it's not proving how this upcasting breaks anything. If you're only talking an extra 2.5 Damage over a single 5 round encounter, what is that breaking? That's less damage than taking the Duelling Fighting Style and further too that, I'd say it's also reliant on sub-optimum builds to begin with. The optimum viable build for a Paladin is to take PAM at level 4 then GWM or Warcaster at 8, the other at 12 and then get the +5STR at 16 with another half feat, for a Pure Paladin (no multiclass).
We have also shifted away from the topic, this is a huge tangent just focusing on only 2 spells.
You probably won't crit though. Even if you do, casting divine favor only prevents you from smiting on a crit for that one round. It's only a 9.775% chance of losing out on that damage. You do expend your level 3 spell slot, but you have one more, and even if you don't want to use it, you can just use a level 2 spell slot.
It does, because casting divine favor with your level 3 spell slot doesn't prevent you from casting divine smite on a later turn, only on that one.
Divine favor would only prevent you from smiting for one round, not 5.
I proved that divine favor would do more damage on 3 rounds of combat.
I'm going to cut this back down, it mostly looks like you're arguing against points I never made on maths that is somewhat shaky while disregarding the importance of resource usage for Paladin. I could go over every point but it's not worth it, you'll just try and counter them.
My original point where I believe this all spawned from is that you said that a Paladin would cast both Divine Smite and Spirit Shroud since concentration only applies to Spirit Shroud. I said that this is pointless, you lose too much DPR from doing this, you wouldn't cast both in one encounter.
When I said you lose DPR, I did not mean you lose DPR vs. casting a 3rd level smite, I meant you lose DPR against saving the spell slot for a latter encounter.
If you have 4 encounters.
Encounter 1, you cast Divine Favor 1st round (with proposed upcasting), you cast spirit shroud 2nd round, you get 1-3 more rounds with 2d4+1d8.
Encounter 2-4 you can't use another 3rd level slot. So no more bonuses.
DPR increase from 2 3rd level slots would be (going for 4 turns as that is more realistic) 8 * 2d4 + 6 * 1d8 for an average of 67
Now if you instead do
Encounter 1, you cast Divine Favor, then just attack every other round
Encounter 2, you cast Divine Favor, then just attack every other round
Encounter 3 & 4 you use nothing since no more 3rd level slots.
You would instead get 8*1d8 + 8*1d8 for an average of 72 damage. If you instead have an upcasted Divine Favor like I recommend, it would be 80. This increased damage is hardly breaking anything, it'd be a 0.5 DPR increase over 16 (4*4) rounds of combat
The increase here is little but the consistency factor of not having DPR based on a concentration spell here is good (and more so a spell that is in the PHB!), Paladin is a front-liner that takes a lot of damage, that Paladin's DPR theoretically relies on spells that are concentration to keep Paladin as viable as Barbarian or Fighter, isn't great but the concentration failures aren't going to occur that often for a Paladin due to the higher AC and higher saving throws, so it's hard to exactly map where Paladin is. If Paladin had a good 3rd level option with no concentration (and in the PHB), we would know exactly where Paladin is and we do not need to worry about a Paladin casting 2 buffs in 1st and 2nd round, it's a sub-optimum choice of resource management and it's really not going to NOVA Spike the damage like the triple Smiting of 2014 did.
Now I did mention bonus actions and Divine Smite, but I did not say I'd be using the 3rd level slot for the Smite, I am just pointing out that at this point, since resource management would be better to not do this, it would the case you can save the 2nd round BA for a smite or other action. Personally my recommendation for Paladin remains PAM, 2-Handed Polearms being even more preferable (for GWM) but Spears and quarterstaves also work if wanting to use a Shield.