I am planning on building a Dhampir Gloomstalker with hand crossbow and scimitar for a weapons and as someone who haven't played any ranger yet and doesn't know how often ranger casts spells I just wanted to ask how big of a difference having/not having the war caster is going to make.
War Caster won't solve your inability to reload the hand crossbow with a sword in your hand, so you'll need to solve it the usual way: drop the weapon you're not using this turn, do your business, then pick it back up. This will mean you have a hand free to reload your hand crossbow or cast your spells, even if you dropped the crossbow to cast a spell with the scimitar wielded.
The only problems War Caster really solves with its S component bullet point are a) if you're wielding a shield and a 1-handed weapon and b) if you're trying to cast Booming Blade or Green-flame Blade with a two-handed weapon.
Tactical note: you should not use the scimitar, a rapier will do the same thing but better. You should also carry a whip, just in case.
Well I thought I have to have light melee weapon to use hand crossbow in off hand and also I thought that the ignoring loading property from crossbow expert solves that whole reloading problem. So I guess the build isn’t viable
Crossbow expert lets you attack with a crossbow while next to someone. So you are doing a d6 damage with either the scimitar or hand crossbow. So you might as well just shoot people! :-)
The whole scimitar hand crossbow was because I couldn’t pick between swift quiver and and steel wind strike. I guess I have to stick to either melee or ranged
Well I thought I have to have light melee weapon to use hand crossbow in off hand and also I thought that the ignoring loading property from crossbow expert solves that whole reloading problem. So I guess the build isn’t viable
Reloading is based on the ammunition property, not loading, and the light property on hand crossbows does nothing whatsoever - light only matters for melee weapons, where it enables two-weapon fighting. That doesn't mean the build isn't viable, but it does mean it doesn't work the way you thought it did. Gloomstalkers are very dangerous!
The whole scimitar hand crossbow was because I couldn’t pick between swift quiver and and steel wind strike. I guess I have to stick to either melee or ranged
Swift Quiver is so bad a spell it's almost insulting. I doubt you'd find yourself casting it. You will need to specialize in melee or ranged at least a little - that's how 5E's feats, fighting styles, and some basic rules, like two weapon fighting, are set up - but you can lean into a hand crossbow and still carry a rapier and a whip for emergencies. Spells known are precious for a ranger, so you can't easily experiment with steel wind strike without DM permission, but also steel wind strike is neither melee nor ranged in these terms: a rapier and a hand crossbow roll to hit with Dex, but SWS rolls to hit with your Wis (for a ranger). SWS also doesn't care what weapon you're wielding, only its price and type (it must be melee), so a rapier, a scimitar, a quarterstaff - all enable the spell, which will work the same way with all of them. It's just a spell with a melee weapon spell component - otherwise, it does spell things and follows spell rules. It does make a melee spell attack.
Swift Quiver + Sharpshooter + Longbow isn't terrible as it outpaces the CBE + SS Combo by one attack. Granted CBE + SS combo lets you have Conjure Animals on top of it which is just generally better. But if you ignore that spell its fine.
Honestly once you get Conjure Animals any spell slots 3+ not spend casting it you are missing out.
Swift quiver also may duplicate poison on arrows depending on your dm. silvered and adamantine arrows will always duplicate.
swift quiver still frees up your main action and gives you two attacks. some times a single non-attack action + a little extra damage from swift quiver is better than an all out attack.
but as to the original question I don't think war caster is necessary. I tend to have extra spell slots at the end of the day so the extra concentration boost isn't important to me. this works even better if you use concentration spells that are spent almost immediately ranger has quite a few of those.
many of the important ranger spells are verbal only or the somatic is usually just grabbing an arrow. I find warcaster isn't needed for range attacks. I think melee can be done too but you have to plan ahead and it does limit your options.
one of my favorite parts of playing a ranger is not sticking to one set of equipment. whips, darts, swords, bows all are useful under certain circumstances. sometimes i use a shield, sometimes I two-hand, sometimes I dual wield.
Swift Quiver + Sharpshooter + Longbow isn't terrible as it outpaces the CBE + SS Combo by one attack. Granted CBE + SS combo lets you have Conjure Animals on top of it which is just generally better. But if you ignore that spell its fine.
Honestly once you get Conjure Animals any spell slots 3+ not spend casting it you are missing out.
It's a fifth level spell. It should do a lot more than that.
Consider, if you will, the fifth-level spell Holy Weapon (which is a Cleric spell and a Paladin spell, and therefore also a Divine Soul Sorcerer spell): same bonus action casting cost, adds 2d8 radiant damage per attack. Turn 1, that's already instantly better than Swift Quiver, because the buff starts happening immediately. Swift Quiver doesn't do anything until the turn after you cast it.
So let's use your comparison, which was exactly right for a 3-round combat: a ranger doing the cbe thing is making 3 attacks per round for 3 rounds, so 9 total. SQ Longbow ranger makes 2, then 4, then 4, attacks, so 10 total. Let's get some damage values present. HW is Holy Weapon, we're pretending a Ranger could cast it.
SQ Longbow: 10*(1d8+15) = 195
CBE: 9*(1d6+15) = 166.5
HW CBE: 9*(1d6+15) + 7*(2d8) = 229.5
But wait, it gets worse. SQ is a minute, so there's no way you had it up before combat began unless you snuck up on the enemy - if you were ambushed, it's a non-starter. HW is an hour. Here's that math again for your second fight, where your HW is probably still up and your SQ guaranteed isn't - SQ isn't even ten minutes, so you can't situationally rush and manage two fights during it.
HW CBE (already up): 9*(1d6+2d8+15) = 247.5
On top of this, SQ is longbows and shortbows only, while HW is any weapon. Further, SQ ends early if you lose the quiver. Not only does HW have no such mechanic - the weapon stays enchanted even if you drop it and pick it back up - but in addition, you can intentionally end it early as a bonus action for a damage burst with a save or, for most opponents, die, since being blind for a minute near a PC is a death sentence for almost everyone.
SQ is a bad spell, and it's even worse for Gloomstalkers, because Gloomstalkers are all about having a strong open, and SQ can't open. It's fundamentally antithetical in its design to Gloomstalker, and Gloomstalkers should never take it - a Gloomstalker should always plan around their first turn.
EDIT: Oh, and I neglected to mention: The RAW on SQ is quite strange, since it enchants a quiver but uses "you" language in it HW doesn't - i.e. HW explicitly and clearly enchants the weapon to work for anyone, although only the caster can end it early as a bonus action for a burst. SQ's wording is such that the RAW prevents anyone but the Ranger from using it, but I don't know how common it is for DMs to be strict about that. If they are being strict, HW gains another serious advantage, which is that you can buff a party member with it instead of yourself in a pinch.
I would say duplicating purple worm poison is worth a fifth level slot but that's just my opinion.
Its not for every build but it is certainly powerful and a useful part of the ranger kit especially when in a situation where you need to dodge or disengage for your action. or cast non concentration action spells. Steel wind strike, conjure volley or any type of healing duties come to mind. There are also some great 3rd level spells. Having your action free to do any thing you want is really powerful.
Note: conjure volley would not cause poison damage because it has a damage override unlike swift quiver
Swift Quiver + Sharpshooter + Longbow isn't terrible as it outpaces the CBE + SS Combo by one attack. Granted CBE + SS combo lets you have Conjure Animals on top of it which is just generally better. But if you ignore that spell its fine.
Honestly once you get Conjure Animals any spell slots 3+ not spend casting it you are missing out.
It's a fifth level spell. It should do a lot more than that.
Consider, if you will, the fifth-level spell Holy Weapon (which is a Cleric spell and a Paladin spell, and therefore also a Divine Soul Sorcerer spell): same bonus action casting cost, adds 2d8 radiant damage per attack. Turn 1, that's already instantly better than Swift Quiver, because the buff starts happening immediately. Swift Quiver doesn't do anything until the turn after you cast it.
So let's use your comparison, which was exactly right for a 3-round combat: a ranger doing the cbe thing is making 3 attacks per round for 3 rounds, so 9 total. SQ Longbow ranger makes 2, then 4, then 4, attacks, so 10 total. Let's get some damage values present. HW is Holy Weapon, we're pretending a Ranger could cast it.
SQ Longbow: 10*(1d8+15) = 195
CBE: 9*(1d6+15) = 166.5
HW CBE: 9*(1d6+15) + 7*(2d8) = 229.5
But wait, it gets worse. SQ is a minute, so there's no way you had it up before combat began unless you snuck up on the enemy - if you were ambushed, it's a non-starter. HW is an hour. Here's that math again for your second fight, where your HW is probably still up and your SQ guaranteed isn't - SQ isn't even ten minutes, so you can't situationally rush and manage two fights during it.
HW CBE (already up): 9*(1d6+2d8+15) = 247.5
On top of this, SQ is longbows and shortbows only, while HW is any weapon. Further, SQ ends early if you lose the quiver. Not only does HW have no such mechanic - the weapon stays enchanted even if you drop it and pick it back up - but in addition, you can intentionally end it early as a bonus action for a damage burst with a save or, for most opponents, die, since being blind for a minute near a PC is a death sentence for almost everyone.
SQ is a bad spell, and it's even worse for Gloomstalkers, because Gloomstalkers are all about having a strong open, and SQ can't open. It's fundamentally antithetical in its design to Gloomstalker, and Gloomstalkers should never take it - a Gloomstalker should always plan around their first turn.
EDIT: Oh, and I neglected to mention: The RAW on SQ is quite strange, since it enchants a quiver but uses "you" language in it HW doesn't - i.e. HW explicitly and clearly enchants the weapon to work for anyone, although only the caster can end it early as a bonus action for a burst. SQ's wording is such that the RAW prevents anyone but the Ranger from using it, but I don't know how common it is for DMs to be strict about that. If they are being strict, HW gains another serious advantage, which is that you can buff a party member with it instead of yourself in a pinch.
Oh yeah for sure its not great by any means....its just not terrible either. I would never personally pick it unless I had a killer magical bow of some kind to make it worth it....like something that did additional elemental damage on hits that could stack with Hunters Mark or something.
Sometimes when I’m deeply frustrated with high level characters and looking at the ranger class, I remind myself that, as archers, rangers can acquire more than just a magic weapon like a paladin and barbarian. They can acquire a combination of a magic bow, bracers of archery, AND magic arrows. Then when you sprinkle in archery fighting style and the sharpshooter feat...yikes!
The whole scimitar hand crossbow was because I couldn’t pick between swift quiver and and steel wind strike. I guess I have to stick to either melee or ranged
You really don't, it's just next to impossible to wield a melee and ranged weapon at the same time. If you make a dexterity based character it is very easy to carry a bow and rapier/scimitar/whip and make use of one or the other based on the situation. I highly recommend it in fact.
There is one solution to your hand crossbow dilemnas though. Artificer. An artificer can slap the Repeating Infusion on a hand crossbow and turn it into a true one handed weapon. This would, however, preclude you from taking advantage of swift quiver since you are no longer reloading the weapon (not to mention how late you would get the spell with a dip included).
As for War Caster, I agree with the others that it isn't necessary. It takes more effort to plan around, but the Ranger spell list is relatively friendly to full hands. I'd say the bigger boon from the feat for the Ranger is the concentration save boost (especially for a build regularly mixing it up in melee). For that function I would rather take resilient (con).
I would say duplicating purple worm poison is worth a fifth level slot but that's just my opinion.
Turning one dose of purple wurm poison into enough for an entire battle is very, very strong. If this function is allowed then for sure, SQ becomes much more valuable. I would love to see a sage advice on this.
Now I'm obsessing about a 14th level Creation Bard with Swift Quiver as a magical secret. Use Creative Crescendo to make a dose of purple wurm poison (among other things), and then swift quiver the coated arrow once in battle.
I would say duplicating purple worm poison is worth a fifth level slot but that's just my opinion.
Turning one dose of purple wurm poison into enough for an entire battle is very, very strong. If this function is allowed then for sure, SQ becomes much more valuable. I would love to see a sage advice on this.
Now I'm obsessing about a 14th level Creation Bard with Swift Quiver as a magical secret. Use Creative Crescendo to make a dose of purple wurm poison (among other things), and then swift quiver the coated arrow once in battle.
The problem is once you use magic to create the poison it wont work with swift quiver any more. you need to either purchase it or Harvest it which is fully under dm control.
I'm kind of on board with Optimus here that conjure animals is probably going to be a better spell known for a ranger. Not even the CR 1/4 creatures, mind you. Even CR 2 and 1 would be amazing with a higher spell slot. With a fifth level spell slot you can have a huge positive effect on the battlefield for the entire party. Dealing damage, blocking, soaking damage, restraining, grappling, knocking prone, lots of stuff. I mean, damage is always great to be doing, but at levels 17+ everyone in the party will be doing considerable damage already. Since rangers have many options to do damage and control/effect of the battlefield, I think they should.
1) when combined with a level 20 Ranger with good Wisdom and Sharpshooter it outpaces all other damage combinations for the Ranger and most other classes as well. My old Foe Slayer spreadsheet comparison puts FS + SQ firmly ahead (like 31.9 average with Hunters Mark vs 48.32 with SQ). With 2d8 extra damage (pretend Ranger had Holy Weapon) it’s 38.7 vs 48.32. (Edit: corrected for 2d8 - if anyone wants the link to the spreadsheet just message me)
2) you can use your action for something else entirely like Cast a Spell or dodge or disengage, and still get two attacks per turn. The bonus action attacks from Swift Quiver do not require that you use an attack action.
So if you plan on either of these contingencies, definitely go for Swift Quiver 🙂
Crossbow expert explicitly allows you to fire a hand crossbow with a bonus action while attacking with a one handed melee weapon. Any general rules surrounding the ammunition property that prevent using a crossbow with an occupied hand are overwritten by the feat's specific rule allowing it. You can't do that with swift quiver since they both require a bonus action. War caster is useful for maintaining concentration and will allow you to cast with a weapon in both hands but again you can't cast, attack, and fire the crossbow in a single round unless you're using a reaction cast time spell such as absorb elements.
I am planning on building a Dhampir Gloomstalker with hand crossbow and scimitar for a weapons and as someone who haven't played any ranger yet and doesn't know how often ranger casts spells I just wanted to ask how big of a difference having/not having the war caster is going to make.
The Stats and Level progression for said build:
Stats: DEX: 17 (15+2), WIS: 15 (14+1), CON: 13, STR: 12, INT: 10, CHAR: 8
Lvl 4 - Crossbow Expert, Lvl 8 - Sharpshooter, Lvl 12 - +1WIS,+1DEX, Lvl 16 - +2DEX, Lvl 19 +2WIS
If anyone could give me some advice I would be extremely thankful
War Caster won't solve your inability to reload the hand crossbow with a sword in your hand, so you'll need to solve it the usual way: drop the weapon you're not using this turn, do your business, then pick it back up. This will mean you have a hand free to reload your hand crossbow or cast your spells, even if you dropped the crossbow to cast a spell with the scimitar wielded.
The only problems War Caster really solves with its S component bullet point are a) if you're wielding a shield and a 1-handed weapon and b) if you're trying to cast Booming Blade or Green-flame Blade with a two-handed weapon.
Tactical note: you should not use the scimitar, a rapier will do the same thing but better. You should also carry a whip, just in case.
Well I thought I have to have light melee weapon to use hand crossbow in off hand and also I thought that the ignoring loading property from crossbow expert solves that whole reloading problem. So I guess the build isn’t viable
Crossbow expert lets you attack with a crossbow while next to someone. So you are doing a d6 damage with either the scimitar or hand crossbow. So you might as well just shoot people! :-)
Thanks a lot btw
The whole scimitar hand crossbow was because I couldn’t pick between swift quiver and and steel wind strike. I guess I have to stick to either melee or ranged
War caster's nicest casting impact is on Absorb Elements since having your hands full makes casting it as a reaction impossible.
Reloading is based on the ammunition property, not loading, and the light property on hand crossbows does nothing whatsoever - light only matters for melee weapons, where it enables two-weapon fighting. That doesn't mean the build isn't viable, but it does mean it doesn't work the way you thought it did. Gloomstalkers are very dangerous!
Swift Quiver is so bad a spell it's almost insulting. I doubt you'd find yourself casting it. You will need to specialize in melee or ranged at least a little - that's how 5E's feats, fighting styles, and some basic rules, like two weapon fighting, are set up - but you can lean into a hand crossbow and still carry a rapier and a whip for emergencies. Spells known are precious for a ranger, so you can't easily experiment with steel wind strike without DM permission, but also steel wind strike is neither melee nor ranged in these terms: a rapier and a hand crossbow roll to hit with Dex, but SWS rolls to hit with your Wis (for a ranger). SWS also doesn't care what weapon you're wielding, only its price and type (it must be melee), so a rapier, a scimitar, a quarterstaff - all enable the spell, which will work the same way with all of them. It's just a spell with a melee weapon spell component - otherwise, it does spell things and follows spell rules. It does make a melee spell attack.
Swift Quiver + Sharpshooter + Longbow isn't terrible as it outpaces the CBE + SS Combo by one attack. Granted CBE + SS combo lets you have Conjure Animals on top of it which is just generally better. But if you ignore that spell its fine.
Honestly once you get Conjure Animals any spell slots 3+ not spend casting it you are missing out.
but as to the original question I don't think war caster is necessary. I tend to have extra spell slots at the end of the day so the extra concentration boost isn't important to me. this works even better if you use concentration spells that are spent almost immediately ranger has quite a few of those.
many of the important ranger spells are verbal only or the somatic is usually just grabbing an arrow. I find warcaster isn't needed for range attacks. I think melee can be done too but you have to plan ahead and it does limit your options.
one of my favorite parts of playing a ranger is not sticking to one set of equipment. whips, darts, swords, bows all are useful under certain circumstances. sometimes i use a shield, sometimes I two-hand, sometimes I dual wield.
It's a fifth level spell. It should do a lot more than that.
Consider, if you will, the fifth-level spell Holy Weapon (which is a Cleric spell and a Paladin spell, and therefore also a Divine Soul Sorcerer spell): same bonus action casting cost, adds 2d8 radiant damage per attack. Turn 1, that's already instantly better than Swift Quiver, because the buff starts happening immediately. Swift Quiver doesn't do anything until the turn after you cast it.
So let's use your comparison, which was exactly right for a 3-round combat: a ranger doing the cbe thing is making 3 attacks per round for 3 rounds, so 9 total. SQ Longbow ranger makes 2, then 4, then 4, attacks, so 10 total. Let's get some damage values present. HW is Holy Weapon, we're pretending a Ranger could cast it.
SQ Longbow: 10*(1d8+15) = 195
CBE: 9*(1d6+15) = 166.5
HW CBE: 9*(1d6+15) + 7*(2d8) = 229.5
But wait, it gets worse. SQ is a minute, so there's no way you had it up before combat began unless you snuck up on the enemy - if you were ambushed, it's a non-starter. HW is an hour. Here's that math again for your second fight, where your HW is probably still up and your SQ guaranteed isn't - SQ isn't even ten minutes, so you can't situationally rush and manage two fights during it.
HW CBE (already up): 9*(1d6+2d8+15) = 247.5
On top of this, SQ is longbows and shortbows only, while HW is any weapon. Further, SQ ends early if you lose the quiver. Not only does HW have no such mechanic - the weapon stays enchanted even if you drop it and pick it back up - but in addition, you can intentionally end it early as a bonus action for a damage burst with a save or, for most opponents, die, since being blind for a minute near a PC is a death sentence for almost everyone.
SQ is a bad spell, and it's even worse for Gloomstalkers, because Gloomstalkers are all about having a strong open, and SQ can't open. It's fundamentally antithetical in its design to Gloomstalker, and Gloomstalkers should never take it - a Gloomstalker should always plan around their first turn.
EDIT: Oh, and I neglected to mention: The RAW on SQ is quite strange, since it enchants a quiver but uses "you" language in it HW doesn't - i.e. HW explicitly and clearly enchants the weapon to work for anyone, although only the caster can end it early as a bonus action for a burst. SQ's wording is such that the RAW prevents anyone but the Ranger from using it, but I don't know how common it is for DMs to be strict about that. If they are being strict, HW gains another serious advantage, which is that you can buff a party member with it instead of yourself in a pinch.
I would say duplicating purple worm poison is worth a fifth level slot but that's just my opinion.
Its not for every build but it is certainly powerful and a useful part of the ranger kit especially when in a situation where you need to dodge or disengage for your action. or cast non concentration action spells. Steel wind strike, conjure volley or any type of healing duties come to mind. There are also some great 3rd level spells. Having your action free to do any thing you want is really powerful.
Note: conjure volley would not cause poison damage because it has a damage override unlike swift quiver
Oh yeah for sure its not great by any means....its just not terrible either. I would never personally pick it unless I had a killer magical bow of some kind to make it worth it....like something that did additional elemental damage on hits that could stack with Hunters Mark or something.
Sometimes when I’m deeply frustrated with high level characters and looking at the ranger class, I remind myself that, as archers, rangers can acquire more than just a magic weapon like a paladin and barbarian. They can acquire a combination of a magic bow, bracers of archery, AND magic arrows. Then when you sprinkle in archery fighting style and the sharpshooter feat...yikes!
You really don't, it's just next to impossible to wield a melee and ranged weapon at the same time. If you make a dexterity based character it is very easy to carry a bow and rapier/scimitar/whip and make use of one or the other based on the situation. I highly recommend it in fact.
There is one solution to your hand crossbow dilemnas though. Artificer. An artificer can slap the Repeating Infusion on a hand crossbow and turn it into a true one handed weapon. This would, however, preclude you from taking advantage of swift quiver since you are no longer reloading the weapon (not to mention how late you would get the spell with a dip included).
As for War Caster, I agree with the others that it isn't necessary. It takes more effort to plan around, but the Ranger spell list is relatively friendly to full hands. I'd say the bigger boon from the feat for the Ranger is the concentration save boost (especially for a build regularly mixing it up in melee). For that function I would rather take resilient (con).
Turning one dose of purple wurm poison into enough for an entire battle is very, very strong. If this function is allowed then for sure, SQ becomes much more valuable. I would love to see a sage advice on this.
Now I'm obsessing about a 14th level Creation Bard with Swift Quiver as a magical secret. Use Creative Crescendo to make a dose of purple wurm poison (among other things), and then swift quiver the coated arrow once in battle.
The problem is once you use magic to create the poison it wont work with swift quiver any more. you need to either purchase it or Harvest it which is fully under dm control.
I'm kind of on board with Optimus here that conjure animals is probably going to be a better spell known for a ranger. Not even the CR 1/4 creatures, mind you. Even CR 2 and 1 would be amazing with a higher spell slot. With a fifth level spell slot you can have a huge positive effect on the battlefield for the entire party. Dealing damage, blocking, soaking damage, restraining, grappling, knocking prone, lots of stuff. I mean, damage is always great to be doing, but at levels 17+ everyone in the party will be doing considerable damage already. Since rangers have many options to do damage and control/effect of the battlefield, I think they should.
Swift Quiver has two distinct benefits:
1) when combined with a level 20 Ranger with good Wisdom and Sharpshooter it outpaces all other damage combinations for the Ranger and most other classes as well. My old Foe Slayer spreadsheet comparison puts FS + SQ firmly ahead (like 31.9 average with Hunters Mark vs 48.32 with SQ). With 2d8 extra damage (pretend Ranger had Holy Weapon) it’s 38.7 vs 48.32. (Edit: corrected for 2d8 - if anyone wants the link to the spreadsheet just message me)
2) you can use your action for something else entirely like Cast a Spell or dodge or disengage, and still get two attacks per turn. The bonus action attacks from Swift Quiver do not require that you use an attack action.
So if you plan on either of these contingencies, definitely go for Swift Quiver 🙂
Crossbow expert explicitly allows you to fire a hand crossbow with a bonus action while attacking with a one handed melee weapon. Any general rules surrounding the ammunition property that prevent using a crossbow with an occupied hand are overwritten by the feat's specific rule allowing it. You can't do that with swift quiver since they both require a bonus action. War caster is useful for maintaining concentration and will allow you to cast with a weapon in both hands but again you can't cast, attack, and fire the crossbow in a single round unless you're using a reaction cast time spell such as absorb elements.
Not quite. (see below)
I don’t think so.
Yes!
Yes, if, and yes.
Crossbow Expert
Thanks to extensive practice with the crossbow, you gain the following benefits: