I once built a 50/50 scout rogue with a Stars druid. Never got to play it, but it had very similar features to a Ranger. Mechanically it worked very different but concept wise it was similar.
In 1dnd they appear probably very similar build Options.
However, the phb ranger has skills listed not provided elsewhere in the game. Being able to get exact numbers and timelines while tracking is one example. There are many more.
The ranger subclasses also provide a lot of unique twists that play together well. Poison pets, push and pull builds (with swarmkeeper) ect.
A lot depends on what type of Ranger and what type of Druid you are using to compare. Since we seldom play to L20 comparing at that level is generally useless. Try building a couple of different L10 characters- a L10 Ranger and a L5 scout Rogue/L5 Druid and see what the differences are.
It depends on what kind of ranger you want to have. mechanically they will be quite different but in the way you play them there's no reason why they should be any different from each other. Is there anything in particular you are after that we can help you achieve?
I’m just curious on how a DM would handle lore with the differing options.
Another thought, let’s say that the multiclasser was regretting multiclassing and they asked their DM if they could fuse the levels into Ranger. What circumstances do you think would allow this, what wouldn’t? I’m thinking if the two class levels are very disproportionate to each other than I wouldn’t allow it as a DM, but if they were less than two apart I might allow it, as long as their new archetype reflected the themes of the previous two, I would likely have the process done during a level up to get rid of other problems.
He rogue Druid has more spells available and known, wildshape, backstab and uncanny dodge but worse AC, fewer HP and I not a single attack. The ranger has (typically) 10 more HP, significantly better AC, 2 attacks, better foraging and different subclass skills. We are constantly debating whether the PHB listed expertises for rangers are better or worse than the scout’s expertise in survival and nature - for this I’ll call it a draw. As I said above a lot depends on the type of ranger on the one hand and the type of Druid on the other.
He rogue Druid has more spells available and known, wildshape, backstab and uncanny dodge but worse AC, fewer HP and I not a single attack. The ranger has (typically) 10 more HP, significantly better AC, 2 attacks, better foraging and different subclass skills. We are constantly debating whether the PHB listed expertises for rangers are better or worse than the scout’s expertise in survival and nature - for this I’ll call it a draw. As I said above a lot depends on the type of ranger on the one hand and the type of Druid on the other.
I would guess that a druid has to split time between wisdom (and spell casting supporting feats like resilient) and dexterity, while a rogue gets to just pump dexterity. I think that is generally offset by a shield. Studded leather + Dex 16 + Shield = Studded leather + Dex 20.
While he might have better Dex mod since a ranger in half plate is limited to +2, the rogue/Druid is pretty much limited to studded leather and possibly a shield. Yes , I know there is a discussion about Druids and metal armor but by RAW they don’t use chain, breastplate, or half plate so some sort of chitin scale is about their top, then you also have the restrictions of wildshape to consider which pretty much rules out scale and shield as you are dropping them each wildshape and then have to go recover and Redon. So a ranger with half plate and shield should have an AC of 19 while the rogue/druid in studded without a shield has an AC of 17 ( scale and shield puts the Rogue/Druid at 18, and studded and shield do match the ranger but a good DM should be playing shenanigans with the constantly dropping shield.) Are there some magical solutions? Yes, but you can’t count on them in design so I’ve left them out.
I’m just curious on how a DM would handle lore with the differing options.
Another thought, let’s say that the multiclasser was regretting multiclassing and they asked their DM if they could fuse the levels into Ranger. What circumstances do you think would allow this, what wouldn’t? I’m thinking if the two class levels are very disproportionate to each other than I wouldn’t allow it as a DM, but if they were less than two apart I might allow it, as long as their new archetype reflected the themes of the previous two, I would likely have the process done during a level up to get rid of other problems.
Generally, as a DM I won’t allow such switching. For a newbie layer’s first character I might. Generally if your unhappy with the multiclass pick one class or the other and go with it exclusively. That or generate an entirely new character and I’ll kill the old one off and intro the new one.
While he might have better Dex mod since a ranger in half plate is limited to +2, the rogue/Druid is pretty much limited to studded leather and possibly a shield.
Ah, I see, you arbitrarily ignored some of the druid's armor proficiencies. Gotcha.
Sort of - if it were a straight Druid then medium armor and shield are reasonable, add in rogue ( and stealth considerations) and to my mind you are reduced to studded to best accommodate the multiclass.
Sort of - if it were a straight Druid then medium armor and shield are reasonable, add in rogue ( and stealth considerations) and to my mind you are reduced to studded to best accommodate the multiclass.
Shields have no effect on stealth and Rangers aren't less affected by medium armors' disadvantage on stealth. There is literally NO difference what so ever when it comes to AC.
Your right that shields don’t affect stealth, but I ain’t talking about stealth and shields. Rather, the problem of what to do with a shield when wildshaped. You basically have 2 options - drop it or (somehow) incorporate it into the animal you are wildshaped into. I suppose this could be having it shunted into some sort of extradimensional space linked to the creature but I think of it as being incorporated into the creature and in most cases then where does it go? I was talking about stealth only in reference to medium armors. There many rangers chose not to take stealth so it opens up their use of medium armors giving them potentially better AC. The semi-RAW requirement that Druids not wear metallic armour also generally nerfs their ability to wear much besides hide or some homebrewed chiton/wood variant and we could argue over just what AC such things could/should have til 10e. As for magic the only listed nonmetallic medium armor is dragon scale mail ( very rare) and doesn’t remove the stealth disadvantage. For rangers, there is Mithril armour (uncommon) which does remove the penalty so a ranger has a reasonable chance to wear Mithril half plate getting max AC without getting stealth disadvantage. The rogue Druid might be able to match that theoretically but practically it’s far more difficult and leaves them with resource use problems to consider.
Your right that shields don’t affect stealth, but I ain’t talking about stealth and shields.
Never said you did but you implied that shields weren't a valid option for druids.
Rather, the problem of what to do with a shield when wildshaped.
Now you're just trying to change the topic. Shields doesn't impact wildshape any more than a breastplate or a leather armour does.
You basically have 2 options - drop it or (somehow) incorporate it into the animal you are wildshaped into. I suppose this could be having it shunted into some sort of extradimensional space linked to the creature but I think of it as being incorporated into the creature and in most cases then where does it go? I was talking about stealth only in reference to medium armors. There many rangers chose not to take stealth so it opens up their use of medium armors giving them potentially better AC.
Again, you are just arbitrarily choosing to ignore that Rangers and druids can use exactly the same armour types and thus they have access to exactly the same AC.
No, I am explaining my reasonIng from my viewpoint. I do get that you disagree with a number of my considerations and that is fine. You play/run games your way and I will mine. Yes to my mind the shield is not a good armor choice for a Druid/rogue. Is it legal by RAW? Yes and so she won’t consider “real life” difficulties and just wipe them off to magic/fantasy. I run and play a more realistic game and those considerations do matter.
That balance is very interesting in RPG’s, the balance between reality defying magic and there having to be a system that makes sense for the players and dm to work off of.
What is the requirement for matter not part of the character being incorporated into the beast form? Why do some things work but not others? Does it have something to do with one’s way they see themselves? For example the ground and turf touching a Druid isn’t incorporated, what is the difference between a wooden club and the board they are standing on?
You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.
I’ve underlined some for reference. To my mind this means that things like a shield that can’t be worn by the new form ( a bear carrying a shield?) doesn’t change size and shape so how can it merge with the new form s9 it must fall to the ground. So now someone else in the party has to lug that shield etc around or the Druid has to return to the transformation place and Redon the equipment. I can see things like rings being worn by the wildshape but pretty much everything else is either dropped or merges without changing the new form’s stats. So your dragonscale mail might (I suppose) merge if your becoming a bear but it won’t grant you those resistances and advantages to breath weapons etc. on the other hand it’s probably going to fall all around you if you turn into a small hawk. Now I know that some folks here feel like it all just gets shunted into some sort of extradimensional space that gets toted around naturally by the wildshape and when you transform back it just magically appears back on you just as it was when you transformed. I don’t agree but I don’t have a problem with them playing that way at their table either.
I believe that when it says that it cannot change size or shape to match the new form, it is mostly in reference to you changing size or shape such as going from a medium human, elf, orc, etc. to a tiny squirrel or changling shape from humanoid to say, a shark. Your equipment either disappears, falls to the ground, or just stays the same.
Key words being “can’t wear”, and “merge with it” meaning that it essentially is absorbed until you revert to your true form.
If it cannot merge with the new form due to the size and shape limitation, it would never be stated as an option.
Magic is complicated and weird sometimes and often the specifics are up to the DM. For example it could be argued that any metal equipment wouldn’t be incorporated due to the aversion. It could also be argued that not all druids are averse to using metal tools, mainly just armor, so any weapons would disappear and be essentially turned into the beast.
The law of conservation of matter and energy doesn’t really apply when magic is involved, as is apparent with changelings being able to manually decide their weight and volume, to a limit. Some would argue that their extra body mass is shunted to an extra dimensional space as with Druid equipment, but what if the Druid has a bag of holding? They don’t blow up so it can be inferred that it isn’t an extra dimensional space.
Now imagine an extradimenional space containing nothing but disembodied flesh, sinew, and fat, all still living but in a state of limbo, because this is where the extradimensional space theory would lead for a changling. Your Welcome.
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Ranger - a sneaky dexterous nature magic spellcaster
Druid - nature magic spellcaster
Rouge - sneaky dexterous stab you when your not looking type of guy.
How different is a Ranger from a Rouge multiclassing as a Druid, or vice versa?
I once built a 50/50 scout rogue with a Stars druid. Never got to play it, but it had very similar features to a Ranger. Mechanically it worked very different but concept wise it was similar.
In 1dnd they appear probably very similar build Options.
However, the phb ranger has skills listed not provided elsewhere in the game. Being able to get exact numbers and timelines while tracking is one example. There are many more.
The ranger subclasses also provide a lot of unique twists that play together well. Poison pets, push and pull builds (with swarmkeeper) ect.
A lot depends on what type of Ranger and what type of Druid you are using to compare. Since we seldom play to L20 comparing at that level is generally useless. Try building a couple of different L10 characters- a L10 Ranger and a L5 scout Rogue/L5 Druid and see what the differences are.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It depends on what kind of ranger you want to have. mechanically they will be quite different but in the way you play them there's no reason why they should be any different from each other. Is there anything in particular you are after that we can help you achieve?
I’m just curious on how a DM would handle lore with the differing options.
Another thought, let’s say that the multiclasser was regretting multiclassing and they asked their DM if they could fuse the levels into Ranger. What circumstances do you think would allow this, what wouldn’t? I’m thinking if the two class levels are very disproportionate to each other than I wouldn’t allow it as a DM, but if they were less than two apart I might allow it, as long as their new archetype reflected the themes of the previous two, I would likely have the process done during a level up to get rid of other problems.
He rogue Druid has more spells available and known, wildshape, backstab and uncanny dodge but worse AC, fewer HP and I not a single attack. The ranger has (typically) 10 more HP, significantly better AC, 2 attacks, better foraging and different subclass skills. We are constantly debating whether the PHB listed expertises for rangers are better or worse than the scout’s expertise in survival and nature - for this I’ll call it a draw. As I said above a lot depends on the type of ranger on the one hand and the type of Druid on the other.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Why do you think the Druid would have worse AC?
I would guess that a druid has to split time between wisdom (and spell casting supporting feats like resilient) and dexterity, while a rogue gets to just pump dexterity. I think that is generally offset by a shield.
Studded leather + Dex 16 + Shield = Studded leather + Dex 20.
While he might have better Dex mod since a ranger in half plate is limited to +2, the rogue/Druid is pretty much limited to studded leather and possibly a shield. Yes , I know there is a discussion about Druids and metal armor but by RAW they don’t use chain, breastplate, or half plate so some sort of chitin scale is about their top, then you also have the restrictions of wildshape to consider which pretty much rules out scale and shield as you are dropping them each wildshape and then have to go recover and Redon. So a ranger with half plate and shield should have an AC of 19 while the rogue/druid in studded without a shield has an AC of 17 ( scale and shield puts the Rogue/Druid at 18, and studded and shield do match the ranger but a good DM should be playing shenanigans with the constantly dropping shield.) Are there some magical solutions? Yes, but you can’t count on them in design so I’ve left them out.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Generally, as a DM I won’t allow such switching. For a newbie layer’s first character I might. Generally if your unhappy with the multiclass pick one class or the other and go with it exclusively. That or generate an entirely new character and I’ll kill the old one off and intro the new one.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Ah, I see, you arbitrarily ignored some of the druid's armor proficiencies. Gotcha.
Sort of - if it were a straight Druid then medium armor and shield are reasonable, add in rogue ( and stealth considerations) and to my mind you are reduced to studded to best accommodate the multiclass.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Shields have no effect on stealth and Rangers aren't less affected by medium armors' disadvantage on stealth. There is literally NO difference what so ever when it comes to AC.
Your right that shields don’t affect stealth, but I ain’t talking about stealth and shields. Rather, the problem of what to do with a shield when wildshaped. You basically have 2 options - drop it or (somehow) incorporate it into the animal you are wildshaped into. I suppose this could be having it shunted into some sort of extradimensional space linked to the creature but I think of it as being incorporated into the creature and in most cases then where does it go? I was talking about stealth only in reference to medium armors. There many rangers chose not to take stealth so it opens up their use of medium armors giving them potentially better AC. The semi-RAW requirement that Druids not wear metallic armour also generally nerfs their ability to wear much besides hide or some homebrewed chiton/wood variant and we could argue over just what AC such things could/should have til 10e. As for magic the only listed nonmetallic medium armor is dragon scale mail ( very rare) and doesn’t remove the stealth disadvantage. For rangers, there is Mithril armour (uncommon) which does remove the penalty so a ranger has a reasonable chance to wear Mithril half plate getting max AC without getting stealth disadvantage. The rogue Druid might be able to match that theoretically but practically it’s far more difficult and leaves them with resource use problems to consider.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Never said you did but you implied that shields weren't a valid option for druids.
Now you're just trying to change the topic. Shields doesn't impact wildshape any more than a breastplate or a leather armour does.
Again, you are just arbitrarily choosing to ignore that Rangers and druids can use exactly the same armour types and thus they have access to exactly the same AC.
No, I am explaining my reasonIng from my viewpoint. I do get that you disagree with a number of my considerations and that is fine. You play/run games your way and I will mine. Yes to my mind the shield is not a good armor choice for a Druid/rogue. Is it legal by RAW? Yes and so she won’t consider “real life” difficulties and just wipe them off to magic/fantasy. I run and play a more realistic game and those considerations do matter.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
That balance is very interesting in RPG’s, the balance between reality defying magic and there having to be a system that makes sense for the players and dm to work off of.
What is the requirement for matter not part of the character being incorporated into the beast form? Why do some things work but not others? Does it have something to do with one’s way they see themselves? For example the ground and turf touching a Druid isn’t incorporated, what is the difference between a wooden club and the board they are standing on?
Here is what it says about equipment:
I’ve underlined some for reference. To my mind this means that things like a shield that can’t be worn by the new form ( a bear carrying a shield?) doesn’t change size and shape so how can it merge with the new form s9 it must fall to the ground. So now someone else in the party has to lug that shield etc around or the Druid has to return to the transformation place and Redon the equipment. I can see things like rings being worn by the wildshape but pretty much everything else is either dropped or merges without changing the new form’s stats. So your dragonscale mail might (I suppose) merge if your becoming a bear but it won’t grant you those resistances and advantages to breath weapons etc. on the other hand it’s probably going to fall all around you if you turn into a small hawk. Now I know that some folks here feel like it all just gets shunted into some sort of extradimensional space that gets toted around naturally by the wildshape and when you transform back it just magically appears back on you just as it was when you transformed. I don’t agree but I don’t have a problem with them playing that way at their table either.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I believe that when it says that it cannot change size or shape to match the new form, it is mostly in reference to you changing size or shape such as going from a medium human, elf, orc, etc. to a tiny squirrel or changling shape from humanoid to say, a shark. Your equipment either disappears, falls to the ground, or just stays the same.
Key words being “can’t wear”, and “merge with it” meaning that it essentially is absorbed until you revert to your true form.
If it cannot merge with the new form due to the size and shape limitation, it would never be stated as an option.
Magic is complicated and weird sometimes and often the specifics are up to the DM. For example it could be argued that any metal equipment wouldn’t be incorporated due to the aversion. It could also be argued that not all druids are averse to using metal tools, mainly just armor, so any weapons would disappear and be essentially turned into the beast.
The law of conservation of matter and energy doesn’t really apply when magic is involved, as is apparent with changelings being able to manually decide their weight and volume, to a limit. Some would argue that their extra body mass is shunted to an extra dimensional space as with Druid equipment, but what if the Druid has a bag of holding? They don’t blow up so it can be inferred that it isn’t an extra dimensional space.
Now imagine an extradimenional space containing nothing but disembodied flesh, sinew, and fat, all still living but in a state of limbo, because this is where the extradimensional space theory would lead for a changling. Your Welcome.