I was thinking about saving throws today and came to the realization that Ranger shouldn't have Strength and Dexterity as their saving throws, but rather Strength and Wisdom.
I'm sure that I'm not the first to look at Str Dex and go, "Wizdom Archer no use Strength..." but each class has a common saving throw (Dex, Con, Wis), and a rare saving throw (Str, Int, Cha)... and Int and Cha just don't feel very ranger-y. And while not every Ranger is an archer, every ranger spellcasts with Wisdom.
Outside of mechanics, we can look at flavour. Rangers are far less likely to dodge traps out in the marches than they are to escape a pouncing grapple, or need to control their fear and boredom. Wisdom saves and Strength saves are much more the Ranger's speed.
What do you think? Would you let your players make this swap?
Customizing saving throws for classes might be next, hot on the heels of the Tasha book and it's racial options. I don't think its stated anywhere specifically or officially, but it seems to be pretty intentional that each class gets a "legacy" saving throw proficiency (a good one), and an additional saving throw proficiency (a not good one). I think that would be a pretty neat thing to at least play around with. My gut tells me that every spellcaster is going to take proficiency in constitution saving throws. LOL!
Oh boy, I'm not sure that I'd let my players swap around saving throws quiet so willy nilly.
Checking out Adventurers League Players Guide Version 10 they have rulinge to just change your racial stat bumps, and that seems pretty iffy too... I get it with the modern world, but something about it feels off. Maybe they should set up a system where the bonuses are based on your class instead.
Oh boy, I'm not sure that I'd let my players swap around saving throws quiet so willy nilly.
Checking out Adventurers League Players Guide Version 10 they have rulinge to just change your racial stat bumps, and that seems pretty iffy too... I get it with the modern world, but something about it feels off. Maybe they should set up a system where the bonuses are based on your class instead.
I hate the degree to which they "wildcarded" the racial stat bonuses and proficiencies. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings are different, let them BE different. Halflings are known for being nimble, Dwarves are known for being hardy. It's not unreasonable for their ability scores to reflect that. I get that some people feel like the standard bonuses make some race/class combos more challenging than others when using statgen methods like Standard Array or Point Buy. So I get the desire to add a little flexibility and make more combos viable from Level 1. But the sourcebooks already encourage homebrewing and house rules to suit the play style of your group. I would have gone for a more limited "official" alternative, such as a single +1/-1 swap in addition to the normal racial bonuses. That would let any race have a 16 in their primary stat no matter which class they were, while still maintaining most of the racial diversity we currently have. If some group of friends wants to take it further, they're more than welcome to.
You use a ton of muscles when using a bow, If I am drawing back a 300lb long bow of course I need strength to use it or just to string it shut up
The whole weapons system in D&D is highly unrealistic. If I have a sword, I'm not going to just try to hit someone really hard with my strength, I'm going to make a forceful blow to a precise location. This is even more ridiculous when you consider that you don't have to use dexterity for a rapier.
Personally, I feel like a Ranger should really have CON proficiency. Con saves represent resilience to poisons, venoms, diseases, and the elements, all things a ranger has to be able to handle when out in the wilderness.
Mechanically speaking it'd also be a big buff to Rangers in general because they currently have no features that protect their concentration. As a half-caster rangers are spell slot starved and their list is full of concentration spells.
I'm going to open a can of worms. Saving throws should not be from class, but subclass. For martial PHB ranger subclasses (e.g. gloom stalker, hunter, etc.), CON would be an understandable stat. For summons (e.g. beast master, swarm keeper, etc.), charisma due to need to communicate with a creature. For 3rd party content (e.g. urban ranger from Dungeons of Drakenheim, etc.), WIS due to need for street smarts.
I'm going to open a can of worms. Saving throws should not be from class, but subclass. For martial PHB ranger subclasses (e.g. gloom stalker, hunter, etc.), CON would be an understandable stat. For summons (e.g. beast master, swarm keeper, etc.), charisma due to need to communicate with a creature. For 3rd party content (e.g. urban ranger from Dungeons of Drakenheim, etc.), WIS due to need for street smarts.
Hate to break it to you, but wisdom is the stat for animal handling, not charisma.
Thank you for the correction. I usually play gloom stalker for ranger and was thinking more about verbal communication using speak with animals spell...but admittedly BM and SK ranger have no need.
Saving throw stats are set for game balance as well as other considerations. As others have stated each class generally gets a common save and an uncommon save. Generally a switch within a category shouldn’t have too much impact. The place where it does is substituting con for either strength or Dex for a caster. The game is balanced to require selected feats To improve con for casters ( other than sorcerors). Rangers come in both strength and Dex varieties so the current base of both makes a certain sense. I do agree that given their (supposed) loner & outdoorsman backgrounds it would make a lot of sense for them to have both con and wisdom saves but then that would be 2 common saves which is probably too much for WotC.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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I was thinking about saving throws today and came to the realization that Ranger shouldn't have Strength and Dexterity as their saving throws, but rather Strength and Wisdom.
I'm sure that I'm not the first to look at Str Dex and go, "Wizdom Archer no use Strength..." but each class has a common saving throw (Dex, Con, Wis), and a rare saving throw (Str, Int, Cha)... and Int and Cha just don't feel very ranger-y. And while not every Ranger is an archer, every ranger spellcasts with Wisdom.
Outside of mechanics, we can look at flavour. Rangers are far less likely to dodge traps out in the marches than they are to escape a pouncing grapple, or need to control their fear and boredom. Wisdom saves and Strength saves are much more the Ranger's speed.
What do you think? Would you let your players make this swap?
Customizing saving throws for classes might be next, hot on the heels of the Tasha book and it's racial options. I don't think its stated anywhere specifically or officially, but it seems to be pretty intentional that each class gets a "legacy" saving throw proficiency (a good one), and an additional saving throw proficiency (a not good one). I think that would be a pretty neat thing to at least play around with. My gut tells me that every spellcaster is going to take proficiency in constitution saving throws. LOL!
Oh boy, I'm not sure that I'd let my players swap around saving throws quiet so willy nilly.
Checking out Adventurers League Players Guide Version 10 they have rulinge to just change your racial stat bumps, and that seems pretty iffy too... I get it with the modern world, but something about it feels off. Maybe they should set up a system where the bonuses are based on your class instead.
I hate the degree to which they "wildcarded" the racial stat bonuses and proficiencies. Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings are different, let them BE different. Halflings are known for being nimble, Dwarves are known for being hardy. It's not unreasonable for their ability scores to reflect that. I get that some people feel like the standard bonuses make some race/class combos more challenging than others when using statgen methods like Standard Array or Point Buy. So I get the desire to add a little flexibility and make more combos viable from Level 1. But the sourcebooks already encourage homebrewing and house rules to suit the play style of your group. I would have gone for a more limited "official" alternative, such as a single +1/-1 swap in addition to the normal racial bonuses. That would let any race have a 16 in their primary stat no matter which class they were, while still maintaining most of the racial diversity we currently have. If some group of friends wants to take it further, they're more than welcome to.
You use a ton of muscles when using a bow, If I am drawing back a 300lb long bow of course I need strength to use it or just to string it shut up
The whole weapons system in D&D is highly unrealistic. If I have a sword, I'm not going to just try to hit someone really hard with my strength, I'm going to make a forceful blow to a precise location. This is even more ridiculous when you consider that you don't have to use dexterity for a rapier.
Personally, I feel like a Ranger should really have CON proficiency. Con saves represent resilience to poisons, venoms, diseases, and the elements, all things a ranger has to be able to handle when out in the wilderness.
Mechanically speaking it'd also be a big buff to Rangers in general because they currently have no features that protect their concentration. As a half-caster rangers are spell slot starved and their list is full of concentration spells.
I'm going to open a can of worms. Saving throws should not be from class, but subclass. For martial PHB ranger subclasses (e.g. gloom stalker, hunter, etc.), CON would be an understandable stat. For summons (e.g. beast master, swarm keeper, etc.), charisma due to need to communicate with a creature. For 3rd party content (e.g. urban ranger from Dungeons of Drakenheim, etc.), WIS due to need for street smarts.
Hate to break it to you, but wisdom is the stat for animal handling, not charisma.
Thank you for the correction. I usually play gloom stalker for ranger and was thinking more about verbal communication using speak with animals spell...but admittedly BM and SK ranger have no need.
Saving throw stats are set for game balance as well as other considerations. As others have stated each class generally gets a common save and an uncommon save. Generally a switch within a category shouldn’t have too much impact. The place where it does is substituting con for either strength or Dex for a caster. The game is balanced to require selected feats To improve con for casters ( other than sorcerors). Rangers come in both strength and Dex varieties so the current base of both makes a certain sense. I do agree that given their (supposed) loner & outdoorsman backgrounds it would make a lot of sense for them to have both con and wisdom saves but then that would be 2 common saves which is probably too much for WotC.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.