My 1st level party has a drow in it and as we are about to enter Waterdeep the idea of disguising the drow as a human was brought up. My ranger brought up Favored Enemy and with god only knows how many rangers in it with Drow as Favored Enemy
Would Favored Enemy help to see though the disguise?
Remember Favored enemy says: You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your favored enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
Is beating the disguise tracking? Sometimes but not always. However if investigating, using nature or other intelligence check (An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning.) I assume both logic and memory and deductive reasoning are all used to figure it out. Many dms will stick to wisdom: Peception over Intelligence: Investigation though. I think this is a mistake as they can be two different approaches to the same goal.
I would say either favored enemy humans or drow would help you see through the disguise and at least some benefit should be granted.
Also on a slightly different note : if the ranger were assisting in creation of said disguise I personally would give the bonus as well if using intelligence to create the disguise.
I also would give a boon for wisdom checks via Favored terrain: underdark because drow are certainly related to that terrain.
My 1st level party has a drow in it and as we are about to enter Waterdeep the idea of disguising the drow as a human was brought up. My ranger brought up Favored Enemy and with god only knows how many rangers in it with Drow as Favored Enemy
Would Favored Enemy help to see though the disguise?
Yes, but only because the rules are so poorly written. Technically, such a ranger just has to look at the drow, shut their eyes, and try to remember what they look like. As soon as they do this, they'll have advantage on the check, telling them the target must be a favored enemy.
My 1st level party has a drow in it and as we are about to enter Waterdeep the idea of disguising the drow as a human was brought up. My ranger brought up Favored Enemy and with god only knows how many rangers in it with Drow as Favored Enemy
Would Favored Enemy help to see though the disguise?
Yes, but only because the rules are so poorly written. Technically, such a ranger just has to look at the drow, shut their eyes, and try to remember what they look like. As soon as they do this, they'll have advantage on the check, telling them the target must be a favored enemy.
No sane DM would let that fly, though.
quin I think you are extrapolating a little too far. Memory is part of any form of training. the game makes the direct connection between memory, logic and deductions. eyes open or closed its the same.
while looking at a drow a ranger can "remember" biological info such as typical height, and angle or shape of ears that an unstudied person wouldn't even realize were clues to help. but........ the game rules don't care about explanation they put that on the narrative and worldbuilding (which players and dms share). the game mechanics care about the checks thats all. Is it intelligence? if yes skills apply.
I would also like to add to imalius's statement that ranger mecanics are reserved for Players and NPCs built the same ( I'll use the term adventurer. ranger mechanics are supposed to be narratively strong characters and a city usually wont have more than 25-50 at any given time(just a guess on my part) and after that you have to assume the character identifying the Drow would actually care. In a rpg setting we see hidden people as naratively important and meta assume it must be a clue. ( see chekhov's gun). but in reality water deep is probably full of people disguised due to many different reasons completely unrelated to the story and are just world building. I can think of a couple of interesting ones in wotc books (even water deep dragon heist but I wont say any thing just incase. )
I don't think Rangers should benefit from Favored Enemy to see though a disguise in this situation.
Mechanically, Favored Enemy gives advantage to Intelligence checks to recall information (Arcana, History, Nature, Religion), but does not mention deduction or reasoning (Investigation).
Also, you have to ask why a random Ranger you meet in the city would investigate your human-looking character. Since the Drow is disguised a Ranger or other character would first have to notice odd behaviour with a successful Wisdom (Insight) check, which might make them suspicious enough to investigate further. But neither Insight nor Investigation get advantage from Favored Enemy.
In other circumstances, where a Ranger knew there was a Drow about and was actively tracking them, the appearance of a random Human along the trail is going to raise questions. But when you're entering a city where they're probably relaxing or resupplying and not actively hunting you, then I consider it is less of an issue.
My 1st level party has a drow in it and as we are about to enter Waterdeep the idea of disguising the drow as a human was brought up. My ranger brought up Favored Enemy and with god only knows how many rangers in it with Drow as Favored Enemy
Would Favored Enemy help to see though the disguise?
Favored Enemy
... Choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.
And, if a ranger or any other individual saw through the disguise, what of it? There's a drow in Waterdeep with a group of, perhaps, heroic adventurers or cutthroat assassins.
I don't think Rangers should benefit from Favored Enemy to see though a disguise in this situation.
Mechanically, Favored Enemy gives advantage to Intelligence checks to recall information (Arcana, History, Nature, Religion), but does not mention deduction or reasoning (Investigation).
Also, you have to ask why a random Ranger you meet in the city would investigate your human-looking character. Since the Drow is disguised a Ranger or other character would first have to notice odd behaviour with a successful Wisdom (Insight) check, which might make them suspicious enough to investigate further. But neither Insight nor Investigation get advantage from Favored Enemy.
In other circumstances, where a Ranger knew there was a Drow about and was actively tracking them, the appearance of a random Human along the trail is going to raise questions. But when you're entering a city where they're probably relaxing or resupplying and not actively hunting you, then I consider it is less of an issue.
Favored enemy says intelligence checks and definitely includes investigation. A forensic scientist needs to remember what they were taught in school.
here are some interesting definitions
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
This definition specifically calls out looking for hidden objects so why not a hidden nose or ear? The phrase "discern from Appearance" is also object related but how can you decern an object you don't "remember" what it looks like.
Other Intelligence Checks
The DM might call for an Intelligence check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:
Communicate with a creature without using words
Estimate the value of a precious item
Pull together a disguise to pass as a city guard
Forge a document
Recall lore about a craft or trade
Win a game of skill
^Here^ the game specifically links the creation of a disguise to intelligence.
The magical version of this mundane scenario is Disguise self. And it says investigation is intended to be the direct counter. and xanathars gives a rough detection dc tied to using a disguise kit to counter itself. (DC15 FYI but another book says it can be modified by certain things like similar race or subrace)
Favored enemy says intelligence checks and definitely includes investigation. A forensic scientist needs to remember what they were taught in school.
here are some interesting definitions
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
This definition specifically calls out looking for hidden objects so why not a hidden nose or ear? The phrase "discern from Appearance" is also object related but how can you decern an object you don't "remember" what it looks like.
Other Intelligence Checks
The DM might call for an Intelligence check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:
Communicate with a creature without using words
Estimate the value of a precious item
Pull together a disguise to pass as a city guard
Forge a document
Recall lore about a craft or trade
Win a game of skill
^Here^ the game specifically links the creation of a disguise to intelligence.
The magical version of this mundane scenario is Disguise self. And it says investigation is intended to be the direct counter. and xanathars gives a rough detection dc tied to using a disguise kit to counter itself. (DC15 FYI but another book says it can be modified by certain things like similar race or subrace)
Yes, Investigation is the ability check typically used to discern if a creature is disguised with an illusion.
But no, I don't agree that it is affected by Favored Enemy. The wording specifically states Intelligence checks to "recall information about them". It does not say all Intelligence checks related to them. And if you look through the definitions of the other intelligence checks that you didn't quote above, they say "your ability to recall lore" which investigation does not.
Also, discerning or spotting that someone is disguised is not the same as seeing through it. With Disguise Self you might watch closely and see that parts of the creature's clothing are not reacting to the world around them correctly, and from that deduce that the creature is disguised. But doing so doesn't drop the spell on them, or suddenly allow you to see through it, you are simply aware that they are disguised. The same for a more mundane disguise. You still need to remove the disguise to find out what is underneath.
The game does not separate memory from any check. memory is mostly narrative element not a mechanical one.
ability to "recall lore" is not the same as "recall information". information is more general a term than lore. lore is a subset of information. How do we know the ranger has the information to recall? They chose a favored enemy.
The phrase "recall information" is designed for restricting things a ranger couldn't know. such as going to a plane of existence they never could have heard about. Or a puzzle where the answer is in a specific place they have never heard of(or seen). it is a flag for dms to use when narrative reasons prevent players arguing that their nat 20 gives them impossible info.
I'll agree to disagree with you on Investigation, but there are other points to consider. Let's break down the situation:
You create a disguise, either using Disguise Self or a Disguise Kit (DC15 Intelligence check, with advantage if the party is helping), so you now look like a Human instead of a Drow.
You enter the city. Are Guards, Rangers and other important NPCs automatically investigating you as a potential Drow in disguise? Probably not, unless you give them a reason. At this point I would have you roll a Charisma (Deception) check contested by their Wisdom (Insight), to see how well you can pass yourself off as a Human. Since there are lots of NPCs in a city I would probably use their Passive Insight for this, rather than rolling over and over for each one... but the effect is the same.
If you succeed, great, they're none the wiser and you can carry on about your business.
If you fail, they know you're trying to deceive them and several things might happen. They could:
Confront you about it.
Roll an Intelligence (Investigation) check to figure out what you're hiding.
Ignore it since you're part of an adventuring party.
If they decide to Investigate and you're using Disguise Self, then unless they have True Sight, cast Dispel Magic on you, or reach through the illusion to make a physical inspection of your features, they still won't know what you are. If you're using a mundane disguise then a successful Investigation check may reveal what you are.
Looking at this process, only the last portion might benefit from Favored Enemy if it is ruled to apply to Investigation checks (which I personally disagree with). But any benefit a Ranger might get would be small since by the time it comes up they're already suspicious of you for attempting to deceive them.
If a gnome uses the disguise kit with help from the party members to make themselves look like a human, that will trigger something from people seeing this gnome. Why? Because of an awareness and familiarity with humans and what the general size and mannerisms are. Humans come in all shapes and sizes. But someone who has spent time with and studies gnomes would not only be keyed in on the costume wearer, they would have bells going off in their head from recalling what they know about gnomes. Then you get into mannerisms and accents.
Although I don’t think the rules specifically say this is how this would work, I do think the rules allow for this time of interaction and use. Ability checks are a big open world by design. Use of favored enemy this way is fun, creative, thematic, NOT game breaking, and NOT against the rules.
I’d allow it if I were the DM.
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My 1st level party has a drow in it and as we are about to enter Waterdeep the idea of disguising the drow as a human was brought up. My ranger brought up Favored Enemy and with god only knows how many rangers in it with Drow as Favored Enemy
Would Favored Enemy help to see though the disguise?
Remember Favored enemy says: You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your favored enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them.
Is beating the disguise tracking? Sometimes but not always. However if investigating, using nature or other intelligence check (An Intelligence check comes into play when you need to draw on logic, education, memory, or deductive reasoning.) I assume both logic and memory and deductive reasoning are all used to figure it out. Many dms will stick to wisdom: Peception over Intelligence: Investigation though. I think this is a mistake as they can be two different approaches to the same goal.
I would say either favored enemy humans or drow would help you see through the disguise and at least some benefit should be granted.
Also on a slightly different note : if the ranger were assisting in creation of said disguise I personally would give the bonus as well if using intelligence to create the disguise.
I also would give a boon for wisdom checks via Favored terrain: underdark because drow are certainly related to that terrain.
I'd also add that Rangers in a big city are probably not sitting around on every corner / in every tavern.
Yes, but only because the rules are so poorly written. Technically, such a ranger just has to look at the drow, shut their eyes, and try to remember what they look like. As soon as they do this, they'll have advantage on the check, telling them the target must be a favored enemy.
No sane DM would let that fly, though.
quin I think you are extrapolating a little too far. Memory is part of any form of training. the game makes the direct connection between memory, logic and deductions. eyes open or closed its the same.
while looking at a drow a ranger can "remember" biological info such as typical height, and angle or shape of ears that an unstudied person wouldn't even realize were clues to help. but........ the game rules don't care about explanation they put that on the narrative and worldbuilding (which players and dms share). the game mechanics care about the checks thats all. Is it intelligence? if yes skills apply.
I would also like to add to imalius's statement that ranger mecanics are reserved for Players and NPCs built the same ( I'll use the term adventurer. ranger mechanics are supposed to be narratively strong characters and a city usually wont have more than 25-50 at any given time(just a guess on my part) and after that you have to assume the character identifying the Drow would actually care. In a rpg setting we see hidden people as naratively important and meta assume it must be a clue. ( see chekhov's gun). but in reality water deep is probably full of people disguised due to many different reasons completely unrelated to the story and are just world building. I can think of a couple of interesting ones in wotc books (even water deep dragon heist but I wont say any thing just incase. )
I don't think Rangers should benefit from Favored Enemy to see though a disguise in this situation.
Mechanically, Favored Enemy gives advantage to Intelligence checks to recall information (Arcana, History, Nature, Religion), but does not mention deduction or reasoning (Investigation).
Also, you have to ask why a random Ranger you meet in the city would investigate your human-looking character. Since the Drow is disguised a Ranger or other character would first have to notice odd behaviour with a successful Wisdom (Insight) check, which might make them suspicious enough to investigate further. But neither Insight nor Investigation get advantage from Favored Enemy.
In other circumstances, where a Ranger knew there was a Drow about and was actively tracking them, the appearance of a random Human along the trail is going to raise questions. But when you're entering a city where they're probably relaxing or resupplying and not actively hunting you, then I consider it is less of an issue.
Favored Enemy
...
Choose a type of favored enemy: aberrations, beasts, celestials, constructs, dragons, elementals, fey, fiends, giants, monstrosities, oozes, plants, or undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs) as favored enemies.
And, if a ranger or any other individual saw through the disguise, what of it? There's a drow in Waterdeep with a group of, perhaps, heroic adventurers or cutthroat assassins.
Favored enemy says intelligence checks and definitely includes investigation. A forensic scientist needs to remember what they were taught in school.
here are some interesting definitions
Investigation
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
This definition specifically calls out looking for hidden objects so why not a hidden nose or ear? The phrase "discern from Appearance" is also object related but how can you decern an object you don't "remember" what it looks like.
Other Intelligence Checks
The DM might call for an Intelligence check when you try to accomplish tasks like the following:
^Here^ the game specifically links the creation of a disguise to intelligence.
The magical version of this mundane scenario is Disguise self. And it says investigation is intended to be the direct counter. and xanathars gives a rough detection dc tied to using a disguise kit to counter itself. (DC15 FYI but another book says it can be modified by certain things like similar race or subrace)
Yes, Investigation is the ability check typically used to discern if a creature is disguised with an illusion.
But no, I don't agree that it is affected by Favored Enemy. The wording specifically states Intelligence checks to "recall information about them". It does not say all Intelligence checks related to them. And if you look through the definitions of the other intelligence checks that you didn't quote above, they say "your ability to recall lore" which investigation does not.
Also, discerning or spotting that someone is disguised is not the same as seeing through it. With Disguise Self you might watch closely and see that parts of the creature's clothing are not reacting to the world around them correctly, and from that deduce that the creature is disguised. But doing so doesn't drop the spell on them, or suddenly allow you to see through it, you are simply aware that they are disguised. The same for a more mundane disguise. You still need to remove the disguise to find out what is underneath.
The game does not separate memory from any check. memory is mostly narrative element not a mechanical one.
ability to "recall lore" is not the same as "recall information". information is more general a term than lore. lore is a subset of information. How do we know the ranger has the information to recall? They chose a favored enemy.
The phrase "recall information" is designed for restricting things a ranger couldn't know. such as going to a plane of existence they never could have heard about. Or a puzzle where the answer is in a specific place they have never heard of(or seen). it is a flag for dms to use when narrative reasons prevent players arguing that their nat 20 gives them impossible info.
I'll agree to disagree with you on Investigation, but there are other points to consider. Let's break down the situation:
You create a disguise, either using Disguise Self or a Disguise Kit (DC15 Intelligence check, with advantage if the party is helping), so you now look like a Human instead of a Drow.
You enter the city. Are Guards, Rangers and other important NPCs automatically investigating you as a potential Drow in disguise? Probably not, unless you give them a reason. At this point I would have you roll a Charisma (Deception) check contested by their Wisdom (Insight), to see how well you can pass yourself off as a Human. Since there are lots of NPCs in a city I would probably use their Passive Insight for this, rather than rolling over and over for each one... but the effect is the same.
If you succeed, great, they're none the wiser and you can carry on about your business.
If you fail, they know you're trying to deceive them and several things might happen. They could:
If they decide to Investigate and you're using Disguise Self, then unless they have True Sight, cast Dispel Magic on you, or reach through the illusion to make a physical inspection of your features, they still won't know what you are. If you're using a mundane disguise then a successful Investigation check may reveal what you are.
Looking at this process, only the last portion might benefit from Favored Enemy if it is ruled to apply to Investigation checks (which I personally disagree with). But any benefit a Ranger might get would be small since by the time it comes up they're already suspicious of you for attempting to deceive them.
If a gnome uses the disguise kit with help from the party members to make themselves look like a human, that will trigger something from people seeing this gnome. Why? Because of an awareness and familiarity with humans and what the general size and mannerisms are. Humans come in all shapes and sizes. But someone who has spent time with and studies gnomes would not only be keyed in on the costume wearer, they would have bells going off in their head from recalling what they know about gnomes. Then you get into mannerisms and accents.
Although I don’t think the rules specifically say this is how this would work, I do think the rules allow for this time of interaction and use. Ability checks are a big open world by design. Use of favored enemy this way is fun, creative, thematic, NOT game breaking, and NOT against the rules.
I’d allow it if I were the DM.