So this last session had a rules discussion with my players and wanted to get some additional input.
First question is what happens between a character's turn while they are under the influence of crown of madness? The players argued that the character didn't get an opposed grapple check because it's actions were being controlled by the crown of madness caster. I argued that all characters in combat are considered actively defending themselves even when it's not on their turn and certainly wouldn't have just stood there while the artificer blasted them in the face with Caustic Brew and should get an opposed check.
Similar scenario where the bad guy got hit with Tasha's hideous laughter and falls over. The players also argued that since the bad guy was incapacitated that he couldn't make an opposed grapple check or a save from caustic brew. Which was furthered argued that he took the full area damage of caustic brew since he was incapacitated and grappled by the artificer. I argued that even while incapacitated and grappled the character isn't going to allow someone to spew the caustic brew down their throat.
Thought I'd get second opinions. Thanks in advance.
Are you referring to the spell tasha’s caustic brew?. That requires a Dex save, and none of the conditions you mention affect your ability to perform a Dex Save, so I’d rule they are able to “resist” even if incapacitated, grappled, charmed or prone due to those spell effects.
likewise on the opposed check. The incapacitated creature can’t initiate an opposed check since they can’t take actions, but they can respond to one initiated by another creature. One note though on crown of madness, if the artificer creature initiating the grapple or casting other action spells is also the caster of the crown spell, then they have used their action not maintaining that spell and the crown spell would end.
I think your player is confusing grappled with restrained, which would impact Dex saves against the caustic brew spell
I was indeed referring to Tasha's caustic brew. Thanks for the info it makes a lot of sense.
The bard cast crown of madness, while the artificer was grappling and then caustic brewing the bad guys.
Unless the Artificer had the Grappler feat and double-grappled the baddie to render them restrained, none of the mechanics at hand here interact with dexterity saves, and crown of madness says what it does, which doesn't include anything your players said it did. Crown of Madness letting the caster sometimes dictate the target's action has no bearing outside of potentially preventing the target from taking an action that would break the grapple, like casting a teleportation spell.
You are absolutely correct in your rulings. The problem is that your players are misinterpreting what conditions actually mean, which is honestly a pretty common mistake. They are visualizing grappled as restrained. They are visualizing incapacitated as stunned. In actuality, these conditions are not huge hindrances and the character still has a ton of control over themselves.
Have them watch a classic Jackie Chan fight scene, especially one where he fights a bunch of mooks, and point to all the points that Jackie gets temporarily wrapped up, dazed, or otherwise hindered in combat. Everything happens extremely quickly. He might get his leg caught by an opponent (grappled), but still manages to twist out of the way of an attack. He might get hit by a heavy blow that completely dazes him and makes him unable to go on the offensive(incapacitated), but he still can pour all of his energy into evading blows and surviving until he can stabilize himself.
Finally, Crown of madness is very explicit in what it does. The target is not suddenly a fully controlled puppet. The spell just gives occasional impulses to swing out at nearby allies, but the target definitely has full control over their actions outside of those impulses.
The one thing I have to add to this conversation is that grapples do automatically succeed against incapacitated creatures. It's an often forgotten rule that's tucked away in the middle of the paragraph on Grappling rather than in Appendix A, with the description of the condition. Incapacitated and grappled creatures still make saving throws as normal, though.
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So this last session had a rules discussion with my players and wanted to get some additional input.
First question is what happens between a character's turn while they are under the influence of crown of madness? The players argued that the character didn't get an opposed grapple check because it's actions were being controlled by the crown of madness caster. I argued that all characters in combat are considered actively defending themselves even when it's not on their turn and certainly wouldn't have just stood there while the artificer blasted them in the face with Caustic Brew and should get an opposed check.
Similar scenario where the bad guy got hit with Tasha's hideous laughter and falls over. The players also argued that since the bad guy was incapacitated that he couldn't make an opposed grapple check or a save from caustic brew. Which was furthered argued that he took the full area damage of caustic brew since he was incapacitated and grappled by the artificer. I argued that even while incapacitated and grappled the character isn't going to allow someone to spew the caustic brew down their throat.
Thought I'd get second opinions. Thanks in advance.
Are you referring to the spell tasha’s caustic brew?. That requires a Dex save, and none of the conditions you mention affect your ability to perform a Dex Save, so I’d rule they are able to “resist” even if incapacitated, grappled, charmed or prone due to those spell effects.
likewise on the opposed check. The incapacitated creature can’t initiate an opposed check since they can’t take actions, but they can respond to one initiated by another creature. One note though on crown of madness, if the artificer creature initiating the grapple or casting other action spells is also the caster of the crown spell, then they have used their action not maintaining that spell and the crown spell would end.
I think your player is confusing grappled with restrained, which would impact Dex saves against the caustic brew spell
I was indeed referring to Tasha's caustic brew. Thanks for the info it makes a lot of sense.
The bard cast crown of madness, while the artificer was grappling and then caustic brewing the bad guys.
Crown of madness, Grappled, prone, and incapacitated don't impact saves or ability checks in any way.
Also, I hope the grappled crown target had allies nearby, otherwise the spell does essentially nothing and they can act normally.
Unless the Artificer had the Grappler feat and double-grappled the baddie to render them restrained, none of the mechanics at hand here interact with dexterity saves, and crown of madness says what it does, which doesn't include anything your players said it did. Crown of Madness letting the caster sometimes dictate the target's action has no bearing outside of potentially preventing the target from taking an action that would break the grapple, like casting a teleportation spell.
You are absolutely correct in your rulings. The problem is that your players are misinterpreting what conditions actually mean, which is honestly a pretty common mistake. They are visualizing grappled as restrained. They are visualizing incapacitated as stunned. In actuality, these conditions are not huge hindrances and the character still has a ton of control over themselves.
Have them watch a classic Jackie Chan fight scene, especially one where he fights a bunch of mooks, and point to all the points that Jackie gets temporarily wrapped up, dazed, or otherwise hindered in combat. Everything happens extremely quickly. He might get his leg caught by an opponent (grappled), but still manages to twist out of the way of an attack. He might get hit by a heavy blow that completely dazes him and makes him unable to go on the offensive(incapacitated), but he still can pour all of his energy into evading blows and surviving until he can stabilize himself.
Finally, Crown of madness is very explicit in what it does. The target is not suddenly a fully controlled puppet. The spell just gives occasional impulses to swing out at nearby allies, but the target definitely has full control over their actions outside of those impulses.
This is probably the best example I've seen so far. Thank you.
The one thing I have to add to this conversation is that grapples do automatically succeed against incapacitated creatures. It's an often forgotten rule that's tucked away in the middle of the paragraph on Grappling rather than in Appendix A, with the description of the condition. Incapacitated and grappled creatures still make saving throws as normal, though.