So thieves can use magic items unless I am mistaken that includes scrolls it seems they can use them perfectly. But what do they spell cast with if the don't have a Spellcasting stat or an irregular spellcasting stat or more than one.
Spells cast fro scrolls use set attack modifiers and save DCs based on the level of the spell contained in the scroll rather than the caster's modifiers. There's a table on page 200 of the DMG.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thieves cannot use spell scrolls. Spell scrolls require that the user have the spell on their spell list. That requirement is not ignored by the Thief class feature (it is, on the other hand, ignored by the similar artificer class feature).
So what happens when a thief tries to use a spell scroll? Nothing.
Other magic scrolls (i.e. not spell scrolls) will tell you what you need to know in their description.
It’s just your proficiency bonus, per the DMG. (Technically it’s a +0 ability modifier plus proficiency). I couldn’t find info on save DCs, but based on the modifier rule I’d say 8 + proficiency bonus
Normally it's a mental stat but some races can use others like con.
The DMG literally says that if you have no spellcasting ability from your class, your modifier when casting from a magic item is 0 + your proficiency bonus. No racial or other traits are associated with this
Thieves cannot use spell scrolls. Spell scrolls require that the user have the spell on their spell list. That requirement is not ignored by the Thief class feature (it is, on the other hand, ignored by the similar artificer class feature).
So what happens when a thief tries to use a spell scroll? Nothing.
Other magic scrolls (i.e. not spell scrolls) will tell you what you need to know in their description.
As per sage advice (to reinforce above poster):
Does the Thief’s Use Magic Device feature allow them to use spell scrolls?
Yes. The intent is that a Thief can use spell scrolls with Use Magic Device.
Thieves cannot use spell scrolls. Spell scrolls require that the user have the spell on their spell list. That requirement is not ignored by the Thief class feature (it is, on the other hand, ignored by the similar artificer class feature).
So what happens when a thief tries to use a spell scroll? Nothing.
Other magic scrolls (i.e. not spell scrolls) will tell you what you need to know in their description.
As per sage advice (to reinforce above poster):
Does the Thief’s Use Magic Device feature allow them to use spell scrolls?
Yes. The intent is that a Thief can use spell scrolls with Use Magic Device.
And that is why Rules as written (RAW) and rules as intended (RAI) are refered to as different things.
The artificer specifically has different wording in its version of this effect so that it can use spell scrolls. If the thief is meant to be able to as well, it needs to be errata'd to have the same wording.
Thieves cannot use spell scrolls. Spell scrolls require that the user have the spell on their spell list. That requirement is not ignored by the Thief class feature (it is, on the other hand, ignored by the similar artificer class feature).
So what happens when a thief tries to use a spell scroll? Nothing.
Other magic scrolls (i.e. not spell scrolls) will tell you what you need to know in their description.
As per sage advice (to reinforce above poster):
Does the Thief’s Use Magic Device feature allow them to use spell scrolls?
Yes. The intent is that a Thief can use spell scrolls with Use Magic Device.
And that is why Rules as written (RAW) and rules as intended (RAI) are refered to as different things.
The artificer specifically has different wording in its version of this effect so that it can use spell scrolls. If the thief is meant to be able to as well, it needs to be errata'd to have the same wording.
Respectfully disagree as to the basis of this. Because using your argument as an example the Thief can't attune to magical items that they don't qualify for because their ability doesn't explicitly state attunement, just use while the Artificer's goes out of it's way to mention attunement *and* use.
Edit: Nothing needs errata-ed or changed. The Thief's Use Magic Device doesn't say "Spell requirements" Because they are *not* a spell casting class normally. The Artificer is, and there are rules for how they interact with spell scrolls. So they would need that additional qualifier for spell scrolls.
Staff of power or any other staff or wand can be used by thieves.
You know, I'm not sure what the spellcasting modifier is though...
RAW they can't neccesarially use them, as the ability doesnt ignore spellcasting requirement requisite, so only wands and staves with a class requirement could be used like the Staff of Power. RAI it should allow the use of all wands, staves and scrolls though, ar at least ones that cast spells via charges.
Staff of power can be used, but a Wand of Binding can't for example**. All items have a DC listed for their effect, and when they don't it uses the following rule specificly quoting a rogue UMD ability as the example: "If you don't have a spellcasting ability -- perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature -- your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply." So its a flat PB roll, so a DC of 8+PB, and attack rolls of +PB (at L13 that'd be DC13 and +5 to attacks).
** Caveat, if they have a feat or race granting a spellcasting feature such as High Elf, or Magic Initiate this DOES count as Spellcasting for the purposes of "Attuned by a Spellcaster". The spellcasting attribute will match the one in the feat or race granting the ability (For example High elf casting ability is intelligence). It is also worth noting that this will be a valid attribute for casting with the item replacing the +0 modifier for lacking a Spellcasting ability. In the case of a High Elf Thief with Magic initiate who picked Bard, they can choose Int, Cha, or zero +PB for their item checks.
The Sage Advice official ruling reasoning is that Use Magic Device ignores class requirement, including class's spell list for Spell Scrolls.
Use Magic Device : By 13th level, you have learned enough about the workings of magic that you can improvise the use of items even when they are not intended for you. You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items.
Spell Scroll: A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
The Sage Advice official ruling reasoning is that Use Magic Device ignores class requirement, including class's spell list for Spell Scrolls.
Use Magic Device : By 13th level, you have learned enough about the workings of magic that you can improvise the use of items even when they are not intended for you. You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items.
Spell Scroll: A spell scroll bears the words of a single spell, written in a mystical cipher. If the spell is on your class’s spell list, you can read the scroll and cast its spell without providing any material components. Otherwise, the scroll is unintelligible.
Just going to double up on this. You ignore class requirements. Hence you don't need a spell list at that point. So for a far out world it would be if you found a wish scroll at level 13 as a rogue you now have a wish spell you can use.
Use Magic Device
By 13th level, you have learned enough about the workings of magic that you can improvise the use of items even when they are not intended for you. You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items.
This has been settled for good by his holiness in the Past. Yes they can, all nitpicking aside. Every 6 months or a year this gets hashed out when someone gets it wrong. It occurs with such regularity that I keep this around.
It all comes down to It is your table, your game, if you want the thief to be able to use it, let him use it. If it adds fun to the table great. If you want him to have a fifty/fifty chance of it blowing up in his face then do it. It is all about fun at the table. Just let your players know if they use it that means your rogues can use it against them. But it is all about having fun. Go with the flow HAVE FUN
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So thieves can use magic items unless I am mistaken that includes scrolls it seems they can use them perfectly. But what do they spell cast with if the don't have a Spellcasting stat or an irregular spellcasting stat or more than one.
Spells cast fro scrolls use set attack modifiers and save DCs based on the level of the spell contained in the scroll rather than the caster's modifiers. There's a table on page 200 of the DMG.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thieves cannot use spell scrolls. Spell scrolls require that the user have the spell on their spell list. That requirement is not ignored by the Thief class feature (it is, on the other hand, ignored by the similar artificer class feature).
So what happens when a thief tries to use a spell scroll? Nothing.
Other magic scrolls (i.e. not spell scrolls) will tell you what you need to know in their description.
Ok so I made an error what about a staff of power or something similar.
Staff of power or any other staff or wand can be used by thieves.
You know, I'm not sure what the spellcasting modifier is though...
It’s just your proficiency bonus, per the DMG. (Technically it’s a +0 ability modifier plus proficiency). I couldn’t find info on save DCs, but based on the modifier rule I’d say 8 + proficiency bonus
Normally it's a mental stat but some races can use others like con.
That only applies to spells from racial abilities. You never use Con to cast spells from magic items unless the item specifically says to.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The DMG literally says that if you have no spellcasting ability from your class, your modifier when casting from a magic item is 0 + your proficiency bonus. No racial or other traits are associated with this
According to sage advice a thief can try to use it.
As per sage advice (to reinforce above poster):
Does the Thief’s Use Magic Device feature allow them to use spell scrolls?
Yes. The intent is that a Thief can use spell scrolls with Use Magic Device.
And that is why Rules as written (RAW) and rules as intended (RAI) are refered to as different things.
The artificer specifically has different wording in its version of this effect so that it can use spell scrolls. If the thief is meant to be able to as well, it needs to be errata'd to have the same wording.
Respectfully disagree as to the basis of this. Because using your argument as an example the Thief can't attune to magical items that they don't qualify for because their ability doesn't explicitly state attunement, just use while the Artificer's goes out of it's way to mention attunement *and* use.
Edit: Nothing needs errata-ed or changed. The Thief's Use Magic Device doesn't say "Spell requirements" Because they are *not* a spell casting class normally. The Artificer is, and there are rules for how they interact with spell scrolls. So they would need that additional qualifier for spell scrolls.
RAW they can't neccesarially use them, as the ability doesnt ignore spellcasting requirement requisite, so only wands and staves with a class requirement could be used like the Staff of Power. RAI it should allow the use of all wands, staves and scrolls though, ar at least ones that cast spells via charges.
Staff of power can be used, but a Wand of Binding can't for example**. All items have a DC listed for their effect, and when they don't it uses the following rule specificly quoting a rogue UMD ability as the example:
"If you don't have a spellcasting ability -- perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature -- your spellcasting ability modifier is +0
** Caveat, if they have a feat or race granting a spellcasting feature such as High Elf, or Magic Initiate this DOES count as Spellcasting for the purposes of "Attuned by a Spellcaster". The spellcasting attribute will match the one in the feat or race granting the ability (For example High elf casting ability is intelligence). It is also worth noting that this will be a valid attribute for casting with the item replacing the +0 modifier for lacking a Spellcasting ability. In the case of a High Elf Thief with Magic initiate who picked Bard, they can choose Int, Cha, or zero +PB for their item checks.
The Sage Advice official ruling reasoning is that Use Magic Device ignores class requirement, including class's spell list for Spell Scrolls.
Just going to double up on this. You ignore class requirements. Hence you don't need a spell list at that point. So for a far out world it would be if you found a wish scroll at level 13 as a rogue you now have a wish spell you can use.
Use Magic Device
By 13th level, you have learned enough about the workings of magic that you can improvise the use of items even when they are not intended for you. You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items.
Ruling aside, RAW, the Spell Scroll seems more like a spell requirement not a class one TBH.
But i would certainly not disallow a Thief to use them as to me the spirit of such rules is to use items even when they are not intended for you.
This has been settled for good by his holiness in the Past. Yes they can, all nitpicking aside. Every 6 months or a year this gets hashed out when someone gets it wrong. It occurs with such regularity that I keep this around.
It all comes down to It is your table, your game, if you want the thief to be able to use it, let him use it. If it adds fun to the table great. If you want him to have a fifty/fifty chance of it blowing up in his face then do it. It is all about fun at the table. Just let your players know if they use it that means your rogues can use it against them. But it is all about having fun. Go with the flow HAVE FUN