During our last session, our group encountered a room with a wizard and his two dread knights. Our pally rolled high enough to go first for once, followed by our wizard. My rogue, Malfecto Seethe, stood waiting, a level 11 phantom with an itch to try out his new abilities, surveying the room and waiting for his turn.
The room: 60x30 rectangular, lit but empty except for the three enemies. My go:
I stated "I want to use the distraction of battle and try to sneak my way around behind the wizard." The DM quickly responded "No, they see you. You're in the room. There's nothing to hide behind. No." That may as well have been a slap across the face.
Now, I've played D&D from the age of 12 with the beloved Red Box (including crayon to color in the dice), almost always playing Mal (created at that same age after playing around with a Latin coursebook and discovering that "mal" and "facto" could be added together to essentially create "bad facts", or, if you wanted to translate it a little more loosely: "liar". What a great name for a rogue, yeah?) as a rogue. I kept him through every campaign, creating new iterations when new sourcebooks were released or rules updated, and eventually making a name for himself as a rogue of some shape or form in every online game that was released.
Enough with the pedantic background. I have ALWAYS defined a rogue as a class that uses any and all opportunities available to him/her to give themselves an advantage in battle, through obfuscation and subterfuge. There were no shadows, no pylons or columns, so I didn't plan to hide. Two party members went before me and engaged all three enemies, so I saw my opening. Granted, this should have been nearly impossible in such an open space, but shouldn't I have, at the very least, been given the opportunity to TRY with a VERY high challenge rating to at least make an attempt? I even felt justified with mankind's warfare tactics from the beginning of time to (what I ended up using) a quarterback getting sacked because his focus was on his cone of sight ahead instead of the defensive ends quickly making their way toward him.
I'm not angry, but definitely hurt that my strategy wasn't even given consideration. Our DM and group have played together for well over two decades, changed the face of Faerun, and have become more family than friends. I've tried reasoning with the DM (outside of the game, never during!), but he's holding strong to his decision. ANY character can use the Hide skill if there is cover to hide behind. ANY character can use their Stealth skill to remain undetected in the shadows. ANY character can use thieves' tools to pick a lock if they want to try. ANY bard can palm a walnut.
But only a rogue does it the way it's meant to be done.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted. But if you are not already hidden and try to escape notice without some form of concealment or obscurement, this won't succeed.
I wasn't trying to hide. I was still behind the door and hadn't yet entered the room. The enemies were distracted. Shouldn't I have been able to attempt a stealth check, no matter how challenging the roll would have been?
And I didn't mention anything about bonus actions. I didn't mean anything about having expertise in a skill OR anything at all with max dex.
The skills are listed on everyone's character sheet. If a full plate orc champion wanted to hide behind a rock, he should be allowed to. Sure, there would be disadvantages, negatives to rolls, and a 25+ challenge rating, but he should STILL have the option to use that skill.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly.
I was still in the doorway and hadn't yet entered the room. By the time Mal was able to see into the room and what was going on, the enemies were engaged in battle with the first two group members.
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly.
I was still in the doorway and hadn't yet entered the room. By the time Mal was able to see into the room and what was going on, the enemies were engaged in battle with the first two group members.
If the DM judged that you were being seen in the doorway, he then decided you couldn't hide. Not because enemies are engaged in combat that they don't see anyone coming inside the room.
I wasn't trying to hide. I was still behind the door and hadn't yet entered the room. The enemies were distracted. Shouldn't I have been able to attempt a stealth check, no matter how challenging the roll would have been?
You could have attempted to hide while not seen by being further away from the door for exemple, then enter the room, at which point the DM might have let you stay hidden from distracted enemies, or not, determining that they still spotted you.
Hide and Stealth are incontrovertibly two very distinct and separate skills. I was hidden in the doorway. I wanted to use the distraction of battle to sneak my way into the room, trying to avoid detection, and maneuver myself behind the wizard and dread knights as a flanking position. If I failed a roll, they would see me. If I succeeded, I'd be in place to attack.
I'm not following your post. What exactly is your question?
I see that you were still in the doorway. That would let you hide behind the wall next to the doorway, of course, if you wanted to snipe from the doorway. It wouldn't let you hide inside the room.
If you had a way to fix the lighting conditions in the room and the Skulker feat (or you were a Wood Elf and had a DM willing to interpret the lighting conditions as natural), you could hide behind darkness from anything using darkvision to see you. If you were a Lightfoot Halfling, you could do what you said you wanted to do, which was hide behind your party members. Are you a lightfoot halfling? Or a wood elf? Or do you have the Skulker feat?
Barring that, you need something to hide behind. A high elf can do this at will, for example, by having the minor illusion cantrip on standby for providing portable cover to hide behind. Shape Water can also provide portable cover, with more steps. There are some other racial spells which might be able to apply here, like a Drow's Darkness. Are you a race with racial spells?
Your post reads like you're complaining you built your Rogue without a reliable way to hide and then found yourself without a reliable way to hide. What were you expecting? That's why these other abilities I'm listing are good. Your only built-in option as a Phantom is to forego hiding entirely and use Steady Aim to Sneak Attack, relying on your party to drag you into position.
I wasn't trying to hide. I was still behind the door and hadn't yet entered the room. The enemies were distracted. Shouldn't I have been able to attempt a stealth check, no matter how challenging the roll would have been?
You could have attempted to hide while not seen by being further away from the door for exemple, then enter the room, at which point the DM might have let you stay hidden from distracted enemies, or not, determining that they still spotted you.
It's become a given that when we adventure I'm 1) second in march order behind the paladin, and 2 that when the party is about to open a door, Malfecto is close by but hidden. In this case, I was hidden. I should have included that in my OP. If there is a chance of my character being revealed when the door is opened, I usually "hold" my stealth roll until that time and use it against the passive perception of anything on the opposite side of the door that may have spotted me.
I wasn't trying to hide. I was still behind the door and hadn't yet entered the room. The enemies were distracted. Shouldn't I have been able to attempt a stealth check, no matter how challenging the roll would have been?
You could have attempted to hide while not seen by being further away from the door for exemple, then enter the room, at which point the DM might have let you stay hidden from distracted enemies, or not, determining that they still spotted you.
Hide and Stealth are incontrovertibly two very distinct and separate skills. I was hidden in the doorway. I wanted to use the distraction of battle to sneak my way into the room, trying to avoid detection, and maneuver myself behind the wizard and dread knights as a flanking position. If I failed a roll, they would see me. If I succeeded, I'd be in place to attack.
It sounds like you're trying to make a distinction between sneaking and hiding, when the only difference is whether you're moving or not. They're still handled the same way in game, using the hiding rules which Plaguescarred has already covered.
If your goal is to get into a flanking position, you don't need to be stealthy, just run around them. Why would them seeing you stop you from moving?
Hide and Stealth are incontrovertibly two very distinct and separate skills. I was hidden in the doorway. I wanted to use the distraction of battle to sneak my way into the room, trying to avoid detection, and maneuver myself behind the wizard and dread knights as a flanking position. If I failed a roll, they would see me. If I succeeded, I'd be in place to attack.
"Hide" is not a skill. "Stealth" is the skill you roll when you attempt to hide. It sounds like you may not have a firm understanding of 5e's rules, so I'd recommend reading up on them. Unfortunately, the rules for hiding are pretty threadbare, but you can find them here. Your DM played this completely appropriately.
Hide and Stealth are incontrovertibly two very distinct and separate skills. I was hidden in the doorway. I wanted to use the distraction of battle to sneak my way into the room, trying to avoid detection, and maneuver myself behind the wizard and dread knights as a flanking position. If I failed a roll, they would see me. If I succeeded, I'd be in place to attack.
"Hide" is not a skill. "Stealth" is the skill you roll when you attempt to hide. It sounds like you may not have a firm understanding of 5e's rules, so I'd recommend reading up on them. Unfortunately, the rules for hiding are pretty threadbare, but you can find them here. Your DM played this completely appropriately.
Perhaps so. As I've mentioned, I started playing with The Red Box. The changes in rules have been incredibly substantial between then and my now 49th year on this pale, blue rock. I've seen a deluge of changes for the one class I love to play. I know the rogue I want to play, I'm just not allowed to play him. Thanks guys.
Hide and Stealth are incontrovertibly two very distinct and separate skills. I was hidden in the doorway. I wanted to use the distraction of battle to sneak my way into the room, trying to avoid detection, and maneuver myself behind the wizard and dread knights as a flanking position. If I failed a roll, they would see me. If I succeeded, I'd be in place to attack.
It sounds like you're trying to make a distinction between sneaking and hiding, when the only difference is whether you're moving or not. They're still handled the same way in game, using the hiding rules which Plaguescarred has already covered.
If your goal is to get into a flanking position, you don't need to be stealthy, just run around them. Why would them seeing you stop you from moving?
Stealth is so much more than just hiding. Hiding is dependent on stealth, yes, but using stealth to its fullest does not require hiding. I wanted to sneak my way behind them to flank because that's what Malfecto would do. Were he simply a fighter, I'm sure he'd rush into the fray without abandon, but placing himself strategically on the field of battle is the option he's going to take every time. That's the way I roleplay him. That's his entire being to its core.
You have entered a well lit room with zero cover and zero obstructions, where not but seconds prior two of your allies have rushed through the door to attack the occupants. At this point, your foes are likely to be weary of more opponents entering through the door. If you have nothing to hide behind or obstruct yourself from their view, what do you hope to accomplish with a high stealth roll? Not being able to roll stealth does not preclude you from positioning yourself behind them into a flanking position. You are contradicting yourself in stating that you did not wish to "hide" but in the same vein implying you wished to enter the room undetected.
The DM ruled that given the room, regardless of the perceived distraction you believe your allies to be causing, no amount of sneaking would allow you enter the room undetected, that is well within their purview; it is not a requirement that you be allowed to roll to do something and that a DC be set for it, it is perfectly reasonable that at times, things are simply not possible, this is one of those cases.
I’m sorry, but without something to hide behind like pillars or furniture in the room I wouldn’t have let you succeed at doing what you were trying either. I would have let you try but you wouldn’t have succeeded.
Had you poked your head around the door and shot an arrow at the wizard I’d have given you a stealth roll against his passive perception to get your sneak attack damage for that because you were hidden and he didn’t know that you were there.
During our last session, our group encountered a room with a wizard and his two dread knights. Our pally rolled high enough to go first for once, followed by our wizard. My rogue, Malfecto Seethe, stood waiting, a level 11 phantom with an itch to try out his new abilities, surveying the room and waiting for his turn.
The room: 60x30 rectangular, lit but empty except for the three enemies. My go:
I stated "I want to use the distraction of battle and try to sneak my way around behind the wizard." The DM quickly responded "No, they see you. You're in the room. There's nothing to hide behind. No." That may as well have been a slap across the face.
Now, I've played D&D from the age of 12 with the beloved Red Box (including crayon to color in the dice), almost always playing Mal (created at that same age after playing around with a Latin coursebook and discovering that "mal" and "facto" could be added together to essentially create "bad facts", or, if you wanted to translate it a little more loosely: "liar". What a great name for a rogue, yeah?) as a rogue. I kept him through every campaign, creating new iterations when new sourcebooks were released or rules updated, and eventually making a name for himself as a rogue of some shape or form in every online game that was released.
Enough with the pedantic background. I have ALWAYS defined a rogue as a class that uses any and all opportunities available to him/her to give themselves an advantage in battle, through obfuscation and subterfuge. There were no shadows, no pylons or columns, so I didn't plan to hide. Two party members went before me and engaged all three enemies, so I saw my opening. Granted, this should have been nearly impossible in such an open space, but shouldn't I have, at the very least, been given the opportunity to TRY with a VERY high challenge rating to at least make an attempt? I even felt justified with mankind's warfare tactics from the beginning of time to (what I ended up using) a quarterback getting sacked because his focus was on his cone of sight ahead instead of the defensive ends quickly making their way toward him.
I'm not angry, but definitely hurt that my strategy wasn't even given consideration. Our DM and group have played together for well over two decades, changed the face of Faerun, and have become more family than friends. I've tried reasoning with the DM (outside of the game, never during!), but he's holding strong to his decision. ANY character can use the Hide skill if there is cover to hide behind. ANY character can use their Stealth skill to remain undetected in the shadows. ANY character can use thieves' tools to pick a lock if they want to try. ANY bard can palm a walnut.
But only a rogue does it the way it's meant to be done.
---
You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted. But if you are not already hidden and try to escape notice without some form of concealment or obscurement, this won't succeed.
“ANY”
Not any character can hide as a bonus action. Not any character will have expertise in the Stealth skill and max Dex.
You can’t hide in the open. Your DM is entirely justified in their decision.
I wasn't trying to hide. I was still behind the door and hadn't yet entered the room. The enemies were distracted. Shouldn't I have been able to attempt a stealth check, no matter how challenging the roll would have been?
---
And I didn't mention anything about bonus actions. I didn't mean anything about having expertise in a skill OR anything at all with max dex.
The skills are listed on everyone's character sheet. If a full plate orc champion wanted to hide behind a rock, he should be allowed to. Sure, there would be disadvantages, negatives to rolls, and a 25+ challenge rating, but he should STILL have the option to use that skill.
---
I was still in the doorway and hadn't yet entered the room. By the time Mal was able to see into the room and what was going on, the enemies were engaged in battle with the first two group members.
---
An orc could probably roll to hide behind a rock, yes, as that is the correct application of stealth in 5e.
If the DM judged that you were being seen in the doorway, he then decided you couldn't hide. Not because enemies are engaged in combat that they don't see anyone coming inside the room.
You could have attempted to hide while not seen by being further away from the door for exemple, then enter the room, at which point the DM might have let you stay hidden from distracted enemies, or not, determining that they still spotted you.
So why did you ask to roll stealth? If you were allowed to roll and succeeded, what would it achieve if not to make you hidden?
Hide and Stealth are incontrovertibly two very distinct and separate skills. I was hidden in the doorway. I wanted to use the distraction of battle to sneak my way into the room, trying to avoid detection, and maneuver myself behind the wizard and dread knights as a flanking position. If I failed a roll, they would see me. If I succeeded, I'd be in place to attack.
---
I'm not following your post. What exactly is your question?
I see that you were still in the doorway. That would let you hide behind the wall next to the doorway, of course, if you wanted to snipe from the doorway. It wouldn't let you hide inside the room.
If you had a way to fix the lighting conditions in the room and the Skulker feat (or you were a Wood Elf and had a DM willing to interpret the lighting conditions as natural), you could hide behind darkness from anything using darkvision to see you. If you were a Lightfoot Halfling, you could do what you said you wanted to do, which was hide behind your party members. Are you a lightfoot halfling? Or a wood elf? Or do you have the Skulker feat?
Barring that, you need something to hide behind. A high elf can do this at will, for example, by having the minor illusion cantrip on standby for providing portable cover to hide behind. Shape Water can also provide portable cover, with more steps. There are some other racial spells which might be able to apply here, like a Drow's Darkness. Are you a race with racial spells?
Your post reads like you're complaining you built your Rogue without a reliable way to hide and then found yourself without a reliable way to hide. What were you expecting? That's why these other abilities I'm listing are good. Your only built-in option as a Phantom is to forego hiding entirely and use Steady Aim to Sneak Attack, relying on your party to drag you into position.
It's become a given that when we adventure I'm 1) second in march order behind the paladin, and 2 that when the party is about to open a door, Malfecto is close by but hidden. In this case, I was hidden. I should have included that in my OP. If there is a chance of my character being revealed when the door is opened, I usually "hold" my stealth roll until that time and use it against the passive perception of anything on the opposite side of the door that may have spotted me.
---
That's exactly what I was attempting to do.
---
It sounds like you're trying to make a distinction between sneaking and hiding, when the only difference is whether you're moving or not. They're still handled the same way in game, using the hiding rules which Plaguescarred has already covered.
If your goal is to get into a flanking position, you don't need to be stealthy, just run around them. Why would them seeing you stop you from moving?
"Hide" is not a skill. "Stealth" is the skill you roll when you attempt to hide. It sounds like you may not have a firm understanding of 5e's rules, so I'd recommend reading up on them. Unfortunately, the rules for hiding are pretty threadbare, but you can find them here. Your DM played this completely appropriately.
Perhaps so. As I've mentioned, I started playing with The Red Box. The changes in rules have been incredibly substantial between then and my now 49th year on this pale, blue rock. I've seen a deluge of changes for the one class I love to play. I know the rogue I want to play, I'm just not allowed to play him. Thanks guys.
---
Stealth is so much more than just hiding. Hiding is dependent on stealth, yes, but using stealth to its fullest does not require hiding. I wanted to sneak my way behind them to flank because that's what Malfecto would do. Were he simply a fighter, I'm sure he'd rush into the fray without abandon, but placing himself strategically on the field of battle is the option he's going to take every time. That's the way I roleplay him. That's his entire being to its core.
---
You have entered a well lit room with zero cover and zero obstructions, where not but seconds prior two of your allies have rushed through the door to attack the occupants. At this point, your foes are likely to be weary of more opponents entering through the door. If you have nothing to hide behind or obstruct yourself from their view, what do you hope to accomplish with a high stealth roll? Not being able to roll stealth does not preclude you from positioning yourself behind them into a flanking position. You are contradicting yourself in stating that you did not wish to "hide" but in the same vein implying you wished to enter the room undetected.
The DM ruled that given the room, regardless of the perceived distraction you believe your allies to be causing, no amount of sneaking would allow you enter the room undetected, that is well within their purview; it is not a requirement that you be allowed to roll to do something and that a DC be set for it, it is perfectly reasonable that at times, things are simply not possible, this is one of those cases.
I’m sorry, but without something to hide behind like pillars or furniture in the room I wouldn’t have let you succeed at doing what you were trying either. I would have let you try but you wouldn’t have succeeded.
Had you poked your head around the door and shot an arrow at the wizard I’d have given you a stealth roll against his passive perception to get your sneak attack damage for that because you were hidden and he didn’t know that you were there.
Professional computer geek