A bit of a weird question I guess, it is clearly stated in Wall of Force that you can use disintegrate on it to destroy it instantly. That's a given. My question is about... targeting that Wall of Force.
Disintegrate
A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a target that you can see within range.
Wall of Force
An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range.
Disintegrate requires you to see the target. Wall of Force is invisible. So, can you target Wall of Force without first using magic to see invisible items or not?
Desintegrate: A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a target that you can see within range. The target can be a creature, an object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by wall of force.
Desintegrate: A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a target that you can see within range. The target can be a creature, an object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by wall of force.
Oh wow how did I miss that wording in the same sentence.
Desintegrate: A thin green ray springs from your pointing finger to a target that you can see within range. The target can be a creature, an object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by wall of force.
First, to be clear, I absolutely agree that Disintegrate should be able to be targeted against a Wall of Force or other force object that the caster is aware of, even if they can't see that force object. However, I don't think the rules themselves say that clearly making this a DM ruling.
In your example, you cite the listing of Wall of Force in the following sentence as a reason you can target it even if you can't see it. However, the sentence also specifically lists creatures and objects. Does this mean they can be targeted even if they are invisible or if you can't see them for some other reason? Why would listing Wall of Force as an example bypass the requirement to see it but not the listings of the other possible targets?
Leomund's Tiny Hut is a similar construct of force but this one is opaque from the outside and thus visible. If the example had used Tiny Hut instead of wall of force - would that have any implications for whether you should be able to see the force object before targeting it with the spell?
If you are blinded, can you still cast Disintegrate on a Wall of Force? If you can cast it even if you can't see an invisible wall of force then blindness should have no effect either.
Does having the Disintegrate spell somehow allow you to see invisible force objects so that you can target them? What happens if there are two or more Walls of Force overlapping - can you choose which to Disintegrate even though you can see neither?
Can you use the Disintegrate spell to discover the presence of invisible force objects? The rules on line of effect for spells state:
"To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover."
If a Wall of Force provides total cover then it is impossible to cast Disintegrate or any other spell at a creature or object on the other side of the Wall of Force. The rules prevent you from targeting the spell. Xanathar's adds a rule that if something is an invalid target then the spell slot is expended and nothing happens. The rules regarding an effect coming into being on the near side of an obstruction apply only to AoEs.
"If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction."
So, in theory, a creature casting Disintegrate at an object or creature behind a Wall of Force (that the character does not know is there) would result in the loss of a spell slot and no effect on the target. (That is not how I would run it but that is what the rules would appear to say).
Basically, if a caster doesn't know that there is a Wall of Force between them and their target, what happens? Personally, given the fluff in the Disintegrate spell description, I think that the green line of disintegrate should extend towards the intended target, then stop and disintegrate the wall of force when it is encountered. I don't think that interpretation is actually supported by the rules though.
Anyway, I agree that a Wall of Force of which a caster is aware should be a valid target for Disintegrate .. I don't think the spell's inclusion of Wall of Force in the examples actually covers seeing or targeting a Wall of Force that you can't see.
Saying the target can be a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by wall of force. can either be interpretated as still requiring the need to see it, or that it create an exception in specifically saying what the target can be regardless. Intentions are clear one way or another in the face of conflicting RAW.
While not official ruling per se, it also been confirmed by the Dev on Twitter, there's a similar take on Force Cage as well;
@MtS_Designer This overrule the need to see the target from Disintegrate?
@JeremyECrawford Disintegrate is a mischievous spell. It says you must see its target, then quickly makes an exception for wall of force and the like. #DnD
@LeMarcSharma Does Disintegrate destroy Forcecage?
@JeremyECrawford Disintegrate can destroy something made of magical force. Forcecage is described in its first sentence as "composed of magical force." #DnD
I wouldn't read too much into "invisible" there; the point is that it's transparent. Plus, a player can basically justify the cast by claiming that they are actually aiming at some object behind the wall, and just so happen to have hit the wall instead.
As for rules as written, you can try to aim at a creature or object beyond the wall of force and the spell would hit the wall, destroy it and keep going and hit the target. The excuse here is that the wall is invisible, thus, the caster if dont know that the target is behind "total cover", can try to aim at something beyond the wall, and by doing it, can actually aim at it since the spell would hit the wall and disintegrate it "inmediatly" so your spell will still hit the original target and destroy the wall, instantly this following the Xanathar's rules that if something is an invalid target then the spell slot is expended and nothing happens, meaning you can try t do so and if is not valid, is not posible, like aiming a fireball to the other side of the wall of force, it woul detonate on your side of the wall as RAW in the spell. The rules regarding an effect coming into being on the near side of an obstruction apply only to AoEs, but in the case of Dissintegrate, the same happens: the spell is "tried" and hit the wall, ergo, destroying the wall.
The only grey area here for the DM to decide is if the spell keeps going or stops there, since the og target wasnt the wall, and that's up to the table. Maybe some say the spell is fully used into the wall, others would say the wall is susceptible to dissintegrate and no much of the spell is used on it and keeps going through the og target, and if that's teh case, the spell is even stronger since you can always destroy wall of force and hit something at the ther side at the same time
As for rules as written, you can try to aim at a creature or object beyond the wall of force and the spell would hit the wall, destroy it and keep going and hit the target. The excuse here is that the wall is invisible, thus, the caster if dont know that the target is behind "total cover", can try to aim at something beyond the wall, and by doing it, can actually aim at it since the spell would hit the wall and disintegrate it "inmediatly" so your spell will still hit the original target and destroy the wall, instantly this following the Xanathar's rules that if something is an invalid target then the spell slot is expended and nothing happens, meaning you can try t do so and if is not valid, is not posible, like aiming a fireball to the other side of the wall of force, it woul detonate on your side of the wall as RAW in the spell. The rules regarding an effect coming into being on the near side of an obstruction apply only to AoEs, but in the case of Dissintegrate, the same happens: the spell is "tried" and hit the wall, ergo, destroying the wall.
The only grey area here for the DM to decide is if the spell keeps going or stops there, since the og target wasnt the wall, and that's up to the table. Maybe some say the spell is fully used into the wall, others would say the wall is susceptible to dissintegrate and no much of the spell is used on it and keeps going through the og target, and if that's teh case, the spell is even stronger since you can always destroy wall of force and hit something at the ther side at the same time
I'm not sure I'd allow the spell to destroy the wall and then move onto the intended target. Sounds too much like casting it and hitting multiple enemies that happen to be in a line. "Line" spells like lightning bolt have specific language for effects like that, which disintegrate lacks. I think the emphasis on "destroys... instantly" is just to make it clear there are no saving throws or anything like that.
This appears to be an oversight by the authors. The text should be updated via errata in order to make this interaction function in the way that it's obviously intended to function. But right now, as written, by default the Disintegrate spell cannot target a wall of force:
Invisible [Condition]
While you have the Invisible condition, you experience the following effects.
. . .
Concealed.You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
You launch a green ray at a target you can see within range. The target can be a creature, a nonmagical object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by Wall of Force.
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
You launch a green ray at a target you can see within range. The target can be a creature, a nonmagical object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by Wall of Force.
No, that's not an accurate interpretation for what that text is saying. That text begins by specifying a requirement that applies to all of its possible targets. Then it clarifies what exactly qualifies as a potential target.
Usually, a spell can only target one category of spell targets, so the targeting specification is written more simply, such as: "A frigid beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range." In that example, a creature is the only valid type of target for the spell.
However, in the case of Disintegrate, many different categories of targets are possible. So, the authors chose to first use the generic term "target" to describe a restriction that would always apply no matter what the target actually is when the spell is cast. Then, the spell description mentions all of the possibilities for what may be chosen as a target for this spell.
So yes, the spell description does specifically name Wall of Force as a valid target. But in order to target that, you must be able to see it.
It might be possible to Disintegrate a Wall of Force by first casting See Invisibility on yourself. The only issue there is that technically the See Invisibility only allows you to "see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible". It could potentially be argued that a "creation of magical force" is neither a creature nor an object. The Disintegrate spell description seems to categorize these separately. However, there is some precedent that could help: In the Clairvoyance spell, an intangible, invulnerable sensor is created (which sure seems like it's probably not technically a creature or an object). But that spell description goes on to mention that "A creature that sees the sensor (such as a creature benefiting from See Invisibility or Truesight) sees a luminous orb about the size of your fist." This seems to imply that even some things that do not seem to fit into a traditional classification of being an "object" might still be detectable via the See Invisibility spell. For completeness, the Glossary defines an Object as: "a nonliving, distinct thing. Composite things, like buildings, comprise more than one object." It might be up to the DM to decide if such things as a Clairvoyance sensor or a Wall of Force technically qualify as "objects" for the purposes of the See Invisibility spell.
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
You launch a green ray at a target you can see within range. The target can be a creature, a nonmagical object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by Wall of Force.
Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can’t be dispelled by Dispel Magic. A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane and blocks ethereal travel through the wall.
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
You launch a green ray at a target you can see within range. The target can be a creature, a nonmagical object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by Wall of Force.
Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can’t be dispelled by Dispel Magic. A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane and blocks ethereal travel through the wall.
Yes, this is certainly true! There can be no doubt that a Disintegrate spell destroys a Wall of Force instantly. All you have to do is target the Wall with that spell and that spell requires the spellcaster to see its target when doing so.
This is... hmm. The wording on disintegrate doesn't actually create a targeting exception for wall of force; it just lists it as an example of "a creation of magical force"
Strict RAW, I think you would need another way to see the wall -- see invisibility, truesight, what have you -- to be able to target it. That's obviously not the RAI though
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
You launch a green ray at a target you can see within range. The target can be a creature, a nonmagical object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by Wall of Force.
As David42 pointed out when the thread was first active, listing possible targets doesn't negate the need to actually see them. Otherwise you could target invisible creatures too
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, this is certainly true! There can be no doubt that a Disintegrate spell destroys a Wall of Force instantly. All you have to do is target the Wall with that spell and that spell requires the spellcaster to see its target when doing so.
That can be solved by aiming at something beyond the wall, "you can see it" (like a rock or an enemy beyond the wall) and "you cant see the wall", so you can aim at that other "thing", the spell touches the wall before the of target and then dissintegrate the wall effectively, if that's how you wanna rule it, and as mentioned, since the spell already activated with the wall, the spell ends there The rules of the Wall of force just say "A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however." it didnt say "aimed at the wall", just that the spell destroys the wall, so the spell only requires to touch the wall, not being aimed at it, so i think the intention is like throwing a rock to someone through a glass window and breaking the window and stopping the rock with it since it losed energy
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
You launch a green ray at a target you can see within range. The target can be a creature, a nonmagical object, or a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by Wall of Force.
Nothing can physically pass through the wall. It is immune to all damage and can’t be dispelled by Dispel Magic. A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however. The wall also extends into the Ethereal Plane and blocks ethereal travel through the wall.
Yes, this is certainly true! There can be no doubt that a Disintegrate spell destroys a Wall of Force instantly. All you have to do is target the Wall with that spell and that spell requires the spellcaster to see its target when doing so.
Yes, I would say that the RAI is likely how you've described it. As I mentioned earlier, it just feels like an oversight by the authors that could be corrected with a slight tweak in the wording of something related to this interaction in order to get it to function as intended.
A bit of a weird question I guess, it is clearly stated in Wall of Force that you can use disintegrate on it to destroy it instantly. That's a given. My question is about... targeting that Wall of Force.
Disintegrate
Wall of Force
Disintegrate requires you to see the target. Wall of Force is invisible. So, can you target Wall of Force without first using magic to see invisible items or not?
Yes you specifically can target a Wall of force to disintegrate it.
Oh wow how did I miss that wording in the same sentence.
First, to be clear, I absolutely agree that Disintegrate should be able to be targeted against a Wall of Force or other force object that the caster is aware of, even if they can't see that force object. However, I don't think the rules themselves say that clearly making this a DM ruling.
In your example, you cite the listing of Wall of Force in the following sentence as a reason you can target it even if you can't see it. However, the sentence also specifically lists creatures and objects. Does this mean they can be targeted even if they are invisible or if you can't see them for some other reason? Why would listing Wall of Force as an example bypass the requirement to see it but not the listings of the other possible targets?
Leomund's Tiny Hut is a similar construct of force but this one is opaque from the outside and thus visible. If the example had used Tiny Hut instead of wall of force - would that have any implications for whether you should be able to see the force object before targeting it with the spell?
If you are blinded, can you still cast Disintegrate on a Wall of Force? If you can cast it even if you can't see an invisible wall of force then blindness should have no effect either.
Does having the Disintegrate spell somehow allow you to see invisible force objects so that you can target them? What happens if there are two or more Walls of Force overlapping - can you choose which to Disintegrate even though you can see neither?
Can you use the Disintegrate spell to discover the presence of invisible force objects? The rules on line of effect for spells state:
"To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover."
If a Wall of Force provides total cover then it is impossible to cast Disintegrate or any other spell at a creature or object on the other side of the Wall of Force. The rules prevent you from targeting the spell. Xanathar's adds a rule that if something is an invalid target then the spell slot is expended and nothing happens. The rules regarding an effect coming into being on the near side of an obstruction apply only to AoEs.
"If you place an area of effect at a point that you can’t see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction."
So, in theory, a creature casting Disintegrate at an object or creature behind a Wall of Force (that the character does not know is there) would result in the loss of a spell slot and no effect on the target. (That is not how I would run it but that is what the rules would appear to say).
Basically, if a caster doesn't know that there is a Wall of Force between them and their target, what happens? Personally, given the fluff in the Disintegrate spell description, I think that the green line of disintegrate should extend towards the intended target, then stop and disintegrate the wall of force when it is encountered. I don't think that interpretation is actually supported by the rules though.
Anyway, I agree that a Wall of Force of which a caster is aware should be a valid target for Disintegrate .. I don't think the spell's inclusion of Wall of Force in the examples actually covers seeing or targeting a Wall of Force that you can't see.
Saying the target can be a creation of magical force, such as the wall created by wall of force. can either be interpretated as still requiring the need to see it, or that it create an exception in specifically saying what the target can be regardless. Intentions are clear one way or another in the face of conflicting RAW.
While not official ruling per se, it also been confirmed by the Dev on Twitter, there's a similar take on Force Cage as well;
I wouldn't read too much into "invisible" there; the point is that it's transparent. Plus, a player can basically justify the cast by claiming that they are actually aiming at some object behind the wall, and just so happen to have hit the wall instead.
As for rules as written, you can try to aim at a creature or object beyond the wall of force and the spell would hit the wall, destroy it and keep going and hit the target. The excuse here is that the wall is invisible, thus, the caster if dont know that the target is behind "total cover", can try to aim at something beyond the wall, and by doing it, can actually aim at it since the spell would hit the wall and disintegrate it "inmediatly" so your spell will still hit the original target and destroy the wall, instantly
this following the Xanathar's rules that if something is an invalid target then the spell slot is expended and nothing happens, meaning you can try t do so and if is not valid, is not posible, like aiming a fireball to the other side of the wall of force, it woul detonate on your side of the wall as RAW in the spell. The rules regarding an effect coming into being on the near side of an obstruction apply only to AoEs, but in the case of Dissintegrate, the same happens: the spell is "tried" and hit the wall, ergo, destroying the wall.
The only grey area here for the DM to decide is if the spell keeps going or stops there, since the og target wasnt the wall, and that's up to the table. Maybe some say the spell is fully used into the wall, others would say the wall is susceptible to dissintegrate and no much of the spell is used on it and keeps going through the og target, and if that's teh case, the spell is even stronger since you can always destroy wall of force and hit something at the ther side at the same time
I'm not sure I'd allow the spell to destroy the wall and then move onto the intended target. Sounds too much like casting it and hitting multiple enemies that happen to be in a line. "Line" spells like lightning bolt have specific language for effects like that, which disintegrate lacks. I think the emphasis on "destroys... instantly" is just to make it clear there are no saving throws or anything like that.
This appears to be an oversight by the authors. The text should be updated via errata in order to make this interaction function in the way that it's obviously intended to function. But right now, as written, by default the Disintegrate spell cannot target a wall of force:
Alternatively, the specific of Disintegrate describing its targeting parameters overrides the general spell targeting rule- it specifically names Wall of Force as a target as follows:
No, that's not an accurate interpretation for what that text is saying. That text begins by specifying a requirement that applies to all of its possible targets. Then it clarifies what exactly qualifies as a potential target.
Usually, a spell can only target one category of spell targets, so the targeting specification is written more simply, such as: "A frigid beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range." In that example, a creature is the only valid type of target for the spell.
However, in the case of Disintegrate, many different categories of targets are possible. So, the authors chose to first use the generic term "target" to describe a restriction that would always apply no matter what the target actually is when the spell is cast. Then, the spell description mentions all of the possibilities for what may be chosen as a target for this spell.
So yes, the spell description does specifically name Wall of Force as a valid target. But in order to target that, you must be able to see it.
It might be possible to Disintegrate a Wall of Force by first casting See Invisibility on yourself. The only issue there is that technically the See Invisibility only allows you to "see creatures and objects that have the Invisible condition as if they were visible". It could potentially be argued that a "creation of magical force" is neither a creature nor an object. The Disintegrate spell description seems to categorize these separately. However, there is some precedent that could help: In the Clairvoyance spell, an intangible, invulnerable sensor is created (which sure seems like it's probably not technically a creature or an object). But that spell description goes on to mention that "A creature that sees the sensor (such as a creature benefiting from See Invisibility or Truesight) sees a luminous orb about the size of your fist." This seems to imply that even some things that do not seem to fit into a traditional classification of being an "object" might still be detectable via the See Invisibility spell. For completeness, the Glossary defines an Object as: "a nonliving, distinct thing. Composite things, like buildings, comprise more than one object." It might be up to the DM to decide if such things as a Clairvoyance sensor or a Wall of Force technically qualify as "objects" for the purposes of the See Invisibility spell.
Also, Wall of Force specifically states that you can use Disintegrate for destroying the wall:
Yes, this is certainly true! There can be no doubt that a Disintegrate spell destroys a Wall of Force instantly. All you have to do is target the Wall with that spell and that spell requires the spellcaster to see its target when doing so.
This is... hmm. The wording on disintegrate doesn't actually create a targeting exception for wall of force; it just lists it as an example of "a creation of magical force"
Strict RAW, I think you would need another way to see the wall -- see invisibility, truesight, what have you -- to be able to target it. That's obviously not the RAI though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As David42 pointed out when the thread was first active, listing possible targets doesn't negate the need to actually see them. Otherwise you could target invisible creatures too
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That can be solved by aiming at something beyond the wall, "you can see it" (like a rock or an enemy beyond the wall) and "you cant see the wall", so you can aim at that other "thing", the spell touches the wall before the of target and then dissintegrate the wall effectively, if that's how you wanna rule it, and as mentioned, since the spell already activated with the wall, the spell ends there
The rules of the Wall of force just say "A Disintegrate spell destroys the wall instantly, however." it didnt say "aimed at the wall", just that the spell destroys the wall, so the spell only requires to touch the wall, not being aimed at it, so i think the intention is like throwing a rock to someone through a glass window and breaking the window and stopping the rock with it since it losed energy
Even tough intents are clear, an official ruling or correction in Sage Advice & Errata would make it more RAW kosher.
Would it be fair to agree on RAI, then?
Yes, I would say that the RAI is likely how you've described it. As I mentioned earlier, it just feels like an oversight by the authors that could be corrected with a slight tweak in the wording of something related to this interaction in order to get it to function as intended.
That does bring up an interesting interaction, and I'd assume it's DM discretion as to how to deal with it:
If there is an invisible enemy in front of a target of a spell like disintegrate, do you have it hit the invisible enemy?