Inspired by the thread Agonizing Blast Damage Roll(s) - Tips & Tactics, I'd like to ask something about this interaction (or similar ones). If this has already been discussed in other subforums, please let me know so I can join that conversation and avoid duplicate discussions.
For the sake of this example, let's say you're a level 6 Celestial Warlock who knows the Fire Bolt cantrip (Pact of the Tome), has the Agonizing Blast invocation and the Radiant Soul feature:
Agonizing Blast: Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
Radiant Soul: Once per turn, when a spell you cast deals Radiant or Fire damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage against one of the spell’s targets.
When dealing damage with Fire Bolt, would you rule that Charisma is added twice (A) or only once (B)?
I've tried to parse this to get to B, and I can't do it. I don't see any good reason why you wouldn't add the CHA mod twice
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Inspired by the thread Agonizing Blast Damage Roll(s) - Tips & Tactics, I'd like to ask something about this interaction (or similar ones). If this has already been discussed in other subforums, please let me know so I can join that conversation and avoid duplicate discussions.
For the sake of this example, let's say you're a level 6 Celestial Warlock who knows the Fire Bolt cantrip (Pact of the Tome), has the Agonizing Blast invocation and the Radiant Soul feature:
Agonizing Blast: Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.
Radiant Soul: Once per turn, when a spell you cast deals Radiant or Fire damage, you can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage against one of the spell’s targets.
When dealing damage with Fire Bolt, would you rule that Charisma is added twice (A) or only once (B)?
I think the consensus is correct. Nothing seems to point to disallowing it. At least there isn't an easy way to make eldritch blast do radiant damage. But there are other interesting questions to consider.
Does true strike gain damage from both? I think this has already come up, but I don't see why not. That would be adding your ability mod 3 times to the attack (once for true strike, once for AB, once for radiant soul).
What about if you picked up a couple of levels of evoker wizard? Does potent cantrip apply to either radiant soul or AB? That's the one I'm not really sure. Are these "cantrip's damage" or "additional effects"?
I think the consensus is correct. Nothing seems to point to disallowing it. At least there isn't an easy way to make eldritch blast do radiant damage. But there are other interesting questions to consider.
Does true strike gain damage from both? I think this has already come up, but I don't see why not. That would be adding your ability mod 3 times to the attack (once for true strike, once for AB, once for radiant soul).
What about if you picked up a couple of levels of evoker wizard? Does potent cantrip apply to either radiant soul or AB? That's the one I'm not really sure. Are these "cantrip's damage" or "additional effects"?
To be honest, I didn't intentionally use True Strike in the example because of the debate over whether its damage comes from the weapon or the cantrip. But let's assume (though it's not my understanding) that Agonizing Blast interacts with True Strike. If that's the case, I guess the damage for the same Celestial Warlock in the original example would be as you described:
2d6 + CHA ("... instead of using Strength or Dexterity") + CHA (Agonizing Blast) + CHA (Radiant Soul) [EDIT: see clarification below]
Regarding Potent Cantrip, if we agree with the answers in the thread I linked, I'd say that when you miss the attack, you roll damage as usual, including all modifiers (like Agonizing Blast and Radiant Soul), and then divide the total by 2. For example, with Fire Bolt, it would be half of (2d10 + CHA x 2)
For me "additional effects" are things like the one related to the second creature in Green-Flame Blade, or the damage a target takes for moving in Booming Blade.
What do you think, guys? Do you (more or less :D) agree with these thoughts?
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Wizard. Evoker. Potent Cantrip: Your damaging cantrips affect even creatures that avoid the brunt of the effect. When you cast a cantrip at a creature and you miss with the attack roll or the target succeeds on a saving throw against the cantrip, the target takes half the cantrip's damage (if any) but suffers no additional effect from the cantrip.
A clarification from my previous reply. Assuming the damage from True Strike comes from the cantrip, it should look more like this:
damage from the weapon (ex. 1d6 Shortsword) (*) + CHA ("... instead of using Strength or Dexterity") + CHA (Agonizing Blast) + 1d6 (extra Radiant damage) + CHA (Radiant Soul)
(*): it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice)
A clarification from my previous reply. Assuming the damage from True Strike comes from the cantrip, it should look more like this:
damage from the weapon (ex. 1d6 Shortsword) (*) + CHA ("... instead of using Strength or Dexterity") + CHA (Agonizing Blast) + 1d6 (extra Radiant damage) + CHA (Radiant Soul)
(*): it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice)
I'm not really sold on Agonizing Blast applying to cantrips like True Strike, but if it does, then that math seems correct.
I agree about Potent Cantrip; you would roll the initial damage as if it were a hit, including any bonuses that aren't contingent upon hitting, and then divide by 2.
Not the derail the thread but no weapon in the PHB does radiant damage. The ONLY way to deal radiant damage through a weapon is through a spell or similar feature that allows you to channel magic into a weapon attack. A spell giving you a choice between damage types is no less magical in nature.
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Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
A clarification from my previous reply. Assuming the damage from True Strike comes from the cantrip, it should look more like this:
damage from the weapon (ex. 1d6 Shortsword) (*) + CHA ("... instead of using Strength or Dexterity") + CHA (Agonizing Blast) + 1d6 (extra Radiant damage) + CHA (Radiant Soul)
(*): it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice)
After level 5, there is at least some damage from true strike, whether or not you call the initial damage from it.
A clarification from my previous reply. Assuming the damage from True Strike comes from the cantrip, it should look more like this:
damage from the weapon (ex. 1d6 Shortsword) (*) + CHA ("... instead of using Strength or Dexterity") + CHA (Agonizing Blast) + 1d6 (extra Radiant damage) + CHA (Radiant Soul)
(*): it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice)
After level 5, there is at least some damage from true strike, whether or not you call the initial damage from it.
I know, mate. That's indeed the specific part (the extra Radiant damage) that could, at beast, apply to Agonizing Blast, even if we rule the initial damage comes from the weapon attack.
Not the derail the thread but no weapon in the PHB does radiant damage. The ONLY way to deal radiant damage through a weapon is through a spell or similar feature that allows you to channel magic into a weapon attack. A spell giving you a choice between damage types is no less magical in nature.
Frankly, that's a very good point.
PS. If you cast True Strike and target the forums, you end up with a Derail Strike :D
However, just to toss out another comment, I think the value of the Sun Blade to martial character has gone up significantly since it seems to be one of the few weapons that will do damage other than BPS. The new monster manual appears to have removed the entire "Resistant to BPS from non-magical attacks" - they are now either resistant or not - so the +3 sword that does BPS damage is just as good/bad against Resistant targets as a mundane weapon. On the other hand, weapons that do damage other than BPS suddenly become far more valuable.
I believe it's B because you add The Relevant Ability modifier to a D20 Test derived from it's score.
Which is different than a Circumstantial Bonuses ex. you gain a bonus equal to an ability modifier would stack.
Ability Modifier: Each ability has a modifier that you apply whenever you make a D20 Test with that ability (explained in “D20 Tests”). An ability modifier is derived from its score, as shown in the Ability Modifiers table.
My understanding is that the rule applies to a D20 Test (ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws) and it's related to the section immediately below (D20Tests) but not for calculating damage, where "you add any modifiers" and there's no a hard rule against stacking the same modifier multiple times (EDIT: CHA in the original question)
Each weapon, spell, and damaging monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage dice, add any modifiers, and deal the damage to your target. If there’s a penalty to the damage, it’s possible to deal 0 damage but not negative damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier—the same modifier used for the attack roll—to the damage roll. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers. Unless a rule says otherwise, you don’t add your ability modifier to a fixed damage amount that doesn’t use a roll, such as the damage of a Blowgun. See chapter 6 for weapons’ damage dice and chapter 7 for spells’ damage dice.
I realise this POV is in minority, but i'll try explain it in different way.
You make a D20 Test with the corresonding ability and add the modifier delireved from it. You don't make a D20 Test with more than and it's the modifier derived from the score of the ability that you add,
I realise this POV is in minority, but i'll try explain it in different way.
You make a D20 Test with the corresonding ability and add the modifier delireved from it. You don't make a D20 Test with more than and it's the modifier derived from the score of the ability that you add,
Inspired by the thread Agonizing Blast Damage Roll(s) - Tips & Tactics, I'd like to ask something about this interaction (or similar ones). If this has already been discussed in other subforums, please let me know so I can join that conversation and avoid duplicate discussions.
For the sake of this example, let's say you're a level 6 Celestial Warlock who knows the Fire Bolt cantrip (Pact of the Tome), has the Agonizing Blast invocation and the Radiant Soul feature:
When dealing damage with Fire Bolt, would you rule that Charisma is added twice (A) or only once (B)?
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Linked thread about Radiant Soul: Potent Spellcasting/Cantrip + Radiant Soul - Rules & Game Mechanics
From a game balance perspective (A) is the same damage on average as EB+AB so I don't see a problem with allowing it.
I've tried to parse this to get to B, and I can't do it. I don't see any good reason why you wouldn't add the CHA mod twice
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'd say you add it twice. It's two separate things providing the same bonus, but there's no general rule against that.
But only if it's a single target. If it's multiple targets, Agonizing blast affects all of them, but Radiant Soul can only affect one of them.
pronouns: he/she/they
Thanks for the answers, much appreciated. I agree with them, as I also believe the rules don't go against option A.
Yeah, true.
As a side note, after posting, I realized a Celestial Warlock also knows the Sacred Flame cantrip at level 3.
Edit: never mind
pronouns: he/she/they
Yea I end up with "A" as the answer too.
There are rules that limit sacking your PB but I can't see anything limiting stacking an ability mod.
I think the consensus is correct. Nothing seems to point to disallowing it. At least there isn't an easy way to make eldritch blast do radiant damage. But there are other interesting questions to consider.
Does true strike gain damage from both? I think this has already come up, but I don't see why not. That would be adding your ability mod 3 times to the attack (once for true strike, once for AB, once for radiant soul).
What about if you picked up a couple of levels of evoker wizard? Does potent cantrip apply to either radiant soul or AB? That's the one I'm not really sure. Are these "cantrip's damage" or "additional effects"?
To be honest, I didn't intentionally use True Strike in the example because of the debate over whether its damage comes from the weapon or the cantrip. But let's assume (though it's not my understanding) that Agonizing Blast interacts with True Strike. If that's the case, I guess the damage for the same Celestial Warlock in the original example would be as you described:
Regarding Potent Cantrip, if we agree with the answers in the thread I linked, I'd say that when you miss the attack, you roll damage as usual, including all modifiers (like Agonizing Blast and Radiant Soul), and then divide the total by 2. For example, with Fire Bolt, it would be half of (2d10 + CHA x 2)
For me "additional effects" are things like the one related to the second creature in Green-Flame Blade, or the damage a target takes for moving in Booming Blade.
What do you think, guys? Do you (more or less :D) agree with these thoughts?
---
A clarification from my previous reply. Assuming the damage from True Strike comes from the cantrip, it should look more like this:
(*): it can be Radiant damage or the weapon’s normal damage type (your choice)
I'm not really sold on Agonizing Blast applying to cantrips like True Strike, but if it does, then that math seems correct.
I agree about Potent Cantrip; you would roll the initial damage as if it were a hit, including any bonuses that aren't contingent upon hitting, and then divide by 2.
pronouns: he/she/they
Not the derail the thread but no weapon in the PHB does radiant damage. The ONLY way to deal radiant damage through a weapon is through a spell or similar feature that allows you to channel magic into a weapon attack. A spell giving you a choice between damage types is no less magical in nature.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
After level 5, there is at least some damage from true strike, whether or not you call the initial damage from it.
I know, mate. That's indeed the specific part (the extra Radiant damage) that could, at beast, apply to Agonizing Blast, even if we rule the initial damage comes from the weapon attack.
Frankly, that's a very good point.
PS. If you cast True Strike and target the forums, you end up with a Derail Strike :D
oops
I made an incorrect reply and deleted it.
However, just to toss out another comment, I think the value of the Sun Blade to martial character has gone up significantly since it seems to be one of the few weapons that will do damage other than BPS. The new monster manual appears to have removed the entire "Resistant to BPS from non-magical attacks" - they are now either resistant or not - so the +3 sword that does BPS damage is just as good/bad against Resistant targets as a mundane weapon. On the other hand, weapons that do damage other than BPS suddenly become far more valuable.
I believe it's B because you add The Relevant Ability modifier to a D20 Test derived from it's score.
Which is different than a Circumstantial Bonuses ex. you gain a bonus equal to an ability modifier would stack.
My understanding is that the rule applies to a D20 Test (ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws) and it's related to the section immediately below (D20Tests) but not for calculating damage, where "you add any modifiers" and there's no a hard rule against stacking the same modifier multiple times (EDIT: CHA in the original question)
I realise this POV is in minority, but i'll try explain it in different way.
You make a D20 Test with the corresonding ability and add the modifier delireved from it. You don't make a D20 Test with more than and it's the modifier derived from the score of the ability that you add,
Except the damage roll is not a d20 test.