In my campaign are migrating to 2024 rules and I am wondering about the combination of Polymorph and Suffocation in the new rules.
Rules for Polymorph are:
You attempt to transform a creature that you can see within range into a Beast. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or shape-shift into Beast form for the duration. That form can be any Beast you choose that has a Challenge Rating equal to or less than the target’s (or the target’s level if it doesn’t have a Challenge Rating). The target’s game statistics are replaced by the stat block of the chosen Beast, but the target retains its alignment, personality, creature type, Hit Points, and Hit Point Dice.
The target gains a number of Temporary Hit Points equal to the Hit Points of the Beast form. These Temporary Hit Points vanish if any remain when the spell ends. The spell ends early on the target if it has no Temporary Hit Points left.
The target is limited in the actions it can perform by the anatomy of its new form, and it can’t speak or cast spells.
The target’s gear melds into the new form. The creature can’t use or otherwise benefit from any of that equipment.
And rules for Suffocation are:
A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 plus its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds) before suffocation begins. When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it gains 1 Exhaustion level at the end of each of its turns. When a creature can breathe again, it removes all levels of Exhaustion it gained from suffocating.
What happens if a player Polymorphs a creature on land into a Piranha (or something else that can only breath under water)? According to the new rules for Polymorph the spell only ends if a) time is up, b) concentration is lost, or c) Temporary hit points are lost. But suffocation does not cause any hit point damage now. Instead it causes Exhaustion, which kills you at level 6. Can a player just Polymorph a boss into a fish, and wait for them to suffocate and die without there being any chance to break the Polymorph?
So Polymorph returns to being one of the most broken spells in the game again... I would agree, RAW reading, you can just turn somebody into a fish and they die, only a single saving throw from a 4th level spell.
Using your example, lets assume that the BBEG is turned into a Piranha by failing its Saving Throw. The BBEG would gain 1 Temporary Hit Point as that is what a Piranha has and assume the new form.
The Piranha would immediately start to Suffocate following the documented rules.
The party would have time to get into position and decide what they wanted to do (or run if they are in over their head), then when the Piranha reaches Exhaustion level 6 it dies, and the BBEG would emerge once again.
If I was DM'ing this situation at my table, I would most likely describe that the BBEG is shaken and confused and gasping for breath that it can finally take and maybe even give them the Stunned for one round as well.
RAW rules for Exhaustion state that the creature dies if they reach Exhaustion level 6 which the Piranha did, and it died, removing the 1 Temp HP that it gained from the Polymorph spell, thus reverting back to its true form.
Just my take on it.
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Using your example, lets assume that the BBEG is turned into a Piranha by failing its Saving Throw. The BBEG would gain 1 Temporary Hit Point as that is what a Piranha has and assume the new form.
The Piranha would immediately start to Suffocate following the documented rules.
The party would have time to get into position and decide what they wanted to do (or run if they are in over their head), then when the Piranha reaches Exhaustion level 6 it dies, and the BBEG would emerge once again.
If I was DM'ing this situation at my table, I would most likely describe that the BBEG is shaken and confused and gasping for breath that it can finally take and maybe even give them the Stunned for one round as well.
RAW rules for Exhaustion state that the creature dies if they reach Exhaustion level 6 which the Piranha did, and it died, removing the 1 Temp HP that it gained from the Polymorph spell, thus reverting back to its true form.
Just my take on it.
Cheers!
I don't disagree that I would play it out similarly, however RAW I'm not sure that works. In the 2024 rules for Temp HP, it states:
Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest (see the Rules Glossary).
So RAW it doesn't seem like dying removes temp HP. The spell would seem to last for the full duration (1 hour), at which point the BBEG would reappear at whatever health they were at before being polymorphed. But dying itself wouldn't seem to revert it back to its original form.
The thing about people saying that the BBEG would just be killed by a 4th level spell and one failed save... I don't know that that is true RAW. I can't see anything that suggests the polymorph become permanent because the creature died, so after losing concentration or the end of the spell's duration, it would seem the BBEG would come back to life in their original form. There might be something in there regarding losing concentration early because the BBEG (as a fish) being dead would make it an object rather than a creature, and thus an ineligible target for the spell, but I'm not entirely convinced on that either.
*edited due to wagnarokkr making me think about the 2024 rules vs 2014. The HP that are reduced by death by exhaustion are their actual HP, not from the new form, and so while I still think they would go back to their original form after an hour/lack of concentration, they would be at 0 HP. I was thinking about the temp HP AND that they would have alternate HP (mixing 2024 and 2014), which is obviously incorrect.
You know what, you're right. I partially mixed the 2014 rules with the 2024 rules in my head when thinking about it, and figured when the temp HP goes away the BBEG would have all of its hit points they had before they were polymorphed, but that is not quite how it works in 2024, so the actual HP they lose from dying from exhaustion would be their normal, base HP, and thus when the spell ended they would revert to their normal form but be at 0 hp.
I was wrong, I guess it would work to straight up kill them. Yikes.
Well, you don't actually lose hit points (or temporary hit points) from Exhaustion; you just die. But yeah, they'd revert to their normal form, but they'd still be dead.
The party would have time to get into position and decide what they wanted to do (or run if they are in over their head), then when the Piranha reaches Exhaustion level 6 it dies, and the BBEG would emerge once again.
I'm pretty sure advice from SAC for 2014 had been that if a creature is killed (as opposed to reduced to 0HP) in 2014 while polymorphed, it was dead... and I can see a discussion here where that is mentioned but not the link to the SAC that clarified that...
however going by how exhaustion work, it just states the creature dies. Polymorph doesn't remove conditions, if you're paralysed when you're polymorphed, you're paralysed in the polymorphed form, similarly if you were paralysed while Polymorphed, you'd be paralysed coming out of it, so as I see it... you'd remain dead.
Yeah, I tried looking through the rules to see if Exhaustion would reduce hit points, and what I came up with from the 2024 rules is this:
Exhaustion [Condition]
While you have the Exhaustion condition, you experience the following effects.
Exhaustion Levels. This condition is cumulative. Each time you receive it, you gain 1 Exhaustion level. You die if your Exhaustion level is 6.
D20 Tests Affected. When you make a D20 Test, the roll is reduced by 2 times your Exhaustion level.
Speed Reduced. Your Speed is reduced by a number of feet equal to 5 times your Exhaustion level.
Removing Exhaustion Levels. Finishing a Long Rest removes 1 of your Exhaustion levels. When your Exhaustion level reaches 0, the condition ends.
and then for death:
Dead
A dead creature has no Hit Pointsand can’t regain them unless it is first revived by magic such as the Raise Dead or Revivify spell. When such a spell is cast, the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse. The spirit of a dead creature has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes, and reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back.
If the creature returns to life, the revival effect determines the creature’s current Hit Points. Unless otherwise stated, the creature returns to life with any conditions, magical contagions, or curses that were affecting it at death if the durations of those effects are still ongoing. If the creature died with any Exhaustion levels, it returns with 1 fewer level. If the creature had Attunement to one or more magic items, it is no longer attuned to them.
So if I am understanding that correctly, the fact that level 6 Exhaustion means you die, and you being dead means you have no Hit Points, then dying from Exhaustion reduces your Hit Points to 0. I could be wrong, but it does seem the rules interact that way.
The party would have time to get into position and decide what they wanted to do (or run if they are in over their head), then when the Piranha reaches Exhaustion level 6 it dies, and the BBEG would emerge once again.
I'm pretty sure advice from SAC for 2014 had been that if a creature is killed (as opposed to reduced to 0HP) in 2014 while polymorphed, it was dead... and I can see a discussion here where that is mentioned but not the link to the SAC that clarified that...
Regarding this, what I remember from the 2014 SAC is the ruling about Disintegrate:
What happens if a druid using Wild Shape is reduced to 0 hit points by disintegrate ? Does the druid simply leave beast form?
The druid leaves beast form. As usual, any leftover damage then applies to the druid’s normal hit points. If the leftover damage leaves the druid with 0 hit points, the druid is disintegrated.
Which should be applicable to the 2014 Polymorph as well:
The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. [...]
The target assumes the hit points of its new form. When it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. If it reverts as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to its normal form. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce the creature's normal form to 0 hit points, it isn't knocked unconscious.
And also this (from the 2014 SAC):
What happens if I’m polymorphed or Wild Shaped into a creature with fewer than 100 hit points and then I’m targeted by power word kill?
An effect that causes death without inflicting hp damage would in fact kill the polymorphed creature. Once dead, it now has zero hp (and therefore zero temp hp as well), and reverts back to its original form - still dead.
This is why big baddies have Legendary Resistances. You don't waste them against the fireballs and lightning bolts, you save them for the polymorphs or other insta-campaign-deflation spells that would make the big baddie pointless. Of course nothing stops the PC from simply trying again next round.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
An effect that causes death without inflicting hp damage would in fact kill the polymorphed creature. Once dead, it now has zero hp (and therefore zero temp hp as well), and reverts back to its original form - still dead.
This is why big baddies have Legendary Resistances. You don't waste them against the fireballs and lightning bolts, you save them for the polymorphs or other insta-campaign-deflation spells that would make the big baddie pointless. Of course nothing stops the PC from simply trying again next round.
Yes, this is why you need to give solo BBEGs Legendary Resistances equal to the number of full casters in the party times the number of rounds you want the combat to last. Though the simpler solution in this case is to not have solo monsters, one hit from anything would pop the BBEG back out of a Pirannah polymorph.
An effect that causes death without inflicting hp damage would in fact kill the polymorphed creature. Once dead, it now has zero hp (and therefore zero temp hp as well), and reverts back to its original form - still dead.
This is why big baddies have Legendary Resistances. You don't waste them against the fireballs and lightning bolts, you save them for the polymorphs or other insta-campaign-deflation spells that would make the big baddie pointless. Of course nothing stops the PC from simply trying again next round.
Yes, this is why you need to give solo BBEGs Legendary Resistances equal to the number of full casters in the party times the number of rounds you want the combat to last. Though the simpler solution in this case is to not have solo monsters, one hit from anything would pop the BBEG back out of a Pirannah polymorph.
Imagine it’s your first day as a minion for the big bad, and these heroes show up and one of them does some magic nonsense that turns your boss into a fish that’s now just flopping on the floor. The other minions are fighting the heroes and one of them shouts “hey! new guy! PUNCH THE BOSS QUICK”
Imagine it’s your first day as a minion for the big bad, and these heroes show up and one of them does some magic nonsense that turns your boss into a fish that’s now just flopping on the floor. The other minions are fighting the heroes and one of them shouts “hey! new guy! PUNCH THE BOSS QUICK”
Thanks for the image, some how I imagined this as Goblins... then realised the new guy goblin probably tries to eat his boss. Oh gawd! I'm crying now!
Even in 2014, there were a number of ways of killing a polymorphed creature without it reverting, they were just somewhat harder to achieve (though "turn it into a Tiny creature, drop it into a Tiny hole, and let polymorph end" wasn't exactly hard).
Thinking again about some answers, if we rule a creature is still a creature even when it's dead (*), I guess it wouldn't immediately revert if affected by Polymorph upon death?
At the same time, even if we rule dead creatures that way, the outcome with True Polymorph could be different:
The transformation lasts for the duration or until the target dies or is destroyed, but if you maintain Concentration on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until dispelled.
And depending on this, many spells would persist for some time even after the creature is dead. For example, Hold Person or Hold Monster.
In my campaign are migrating to 2024 rules and I am wondering about the combination of Polymorph and Suffocation in the new rules.
Rules for Polymorph are:
And rules for Suffocation are:
What happens if a player Polymorphs a creature on land into a Piranha (or something else that can only breath under water)? According to the new rules for Polymorph the spell only ends if a) time is up, b) concentration is lost, or c) Temporary hit points are lost. But suffocation does not cause any hit point damage now. Instead it causes Exhaustion, which kills you at level 6. Can a player just Polymorph a boss into a fish, and wait for them to suffocate and die without there being any chance to break the Polymorph?
It seems so.
The question reminded me of that weird idea about using Suggestion in a similar way (suffocation), which was mentioned in a couple of threads.:
So Polymorph returns to being one of the most broken spells in the game again... I would agree, RAW reading, you can just turn somebody into a fish and they die, only a single saving throw from a 4th level spell.
When did Polymorph stop being a broken spell?
Greetings Towerbabbel,
Looking at what you presented, regarding the Polymorph spell, Suffocation, and the Exhaustion condition.
Using your example, lets assume that the BBEG is turned into a Piranha by failing its Saving Throw.
The BBEG would gain 1 Temporary Hit Point as that is what a Piranha has and assume the new form.
The Piranha would immediately start to Suffocate following the documented rules.
The party would have time to get into position and decide what they wanted to do (or run if they are in over their head), then when the Piranha reaches Exhaustion level 6 it dies, and the BBEG would emerge once again.
If I was DM'ing this situation at my table, I would most likely describe that the BBEG is shaken and confused and gasping for breath that it can finally take and maybe even give them the Stunned for one round as well.
RAW rules for Exhaustion state that the creature dies if they reach Exhaustion level 6 which the Piranha did, and it died, removing the 1 Temp HP that it gained from the Polymorph spell, thus reverting back to its true form.
Just my take on it.
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
I don't disagree that I would play it out similarly, however RAW I'm not sure that works. In the 2024 rules for Temp HP, it states:
So RAW it doesn't seem like dying removes temp HP. The spell would seem to last for the full duration (1 hour), at which point the BBEG would reappear
at whatever health they were at before being polymorphed. But dying itself wouldn't seem to revert it back to its original form.The thing about people saying that the BBEG would just be killed by a 4th level spell and one failed save... I don't know that that is true RAW. I can't see anything that suggests the polymorph become permanent because the creature died, so after losing concentration or the end of the spell's duration, it would seem the BBEG would come back to life in their original form. There might be something in there regarding losing concentration early because the BBEG (as a fish) being dead would make it an object rather than a creature, and thus an ineligible target for the spell, but I'm not entirely convinced on that either.*edited due to wagnarokkr making me think about the 2024 rules vs 2014. The HP that are reduced by death by exhaustion are their actual HP, not from the new form, and so while I still think they would go back to their original form after an hour/lack of concentration, they would be at 0 HP. I was thinking about the temp HP AND that they would have alternate HP (mixing 2024 and 2014), which is obviously incorrect.
Why would the BBEG come back to life in this example?
pronouns: he/she/they
You know what, you're right. I partially mixed the 2014 rules with the 2024 rules in my head when thinking about it, and figured when the temp HP goes away the BBEG would have all of its hit points they had before they were polymorphed, but that is not quite how it works in 2024, so the actual HP they lose from dying from exhaustion would be their normal, base HP, and thus when the spell ended they would revert to their normal form but be at 0 hp.
I was wrong, I guess it would work to straight up kill them. Yikes.
Well, you don't actually lose hit points (or temporary hit points) from Exhaustion; you just die. But yeah, they'd revert to their normal form, but they'd still be dead.
pronouns: he/she/they
I'm pretty sure advice from SAC for 2014 had been that if a creature is killed (as opposed to reduced to 0HP) in 2014 while polymorphed, it was dead... and I can see a discussion here where that is mentioned but not the link to the SAC that clarified that...
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/106584-polymorph-power-word-kill
I don't see anything seemingly polymorph related in 2024 for this scenario.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/sae/sage-advice-compendium#SAC-Spells-Polymorph1
however going by how exhaustion work, it just states the creature dies. Polymorph doesn't remove conditions, if you're paralysed when you're polymorphed, you're paralysed in the polymorphed form, similarly if you were paralysed while Polymorphed, you'd be paralysed coming out of it, so as I see it... you'd remain dead.
Yeah, I tried looking through the rules to see if Exhaustion would reduce hit points, and what I came up with from the 2024 rules is this:
and then for death:
So if I am understanding that correctly, the fact that level 6 Exhaustion means you die, and you being dead means you have no Hit Points, then dying from Exhaustion reduces your Hit Points to 0. I could be wrong, but it does seem the rules interact that way.
Regarding this, what I remember from the 2014 SAC is the ruling about Disintegrate:
Which should be applicable to the 2014 Polymorph as well:
And also this (from the 2014 SAC):
An effect that causes death without inflicting hp damage would in fact kill the polymorphed creature. Once dead, it now has zero hp (and therefore zero temp hp as well), and reverts back to its original form - still dead.
This is why big baddies have Legendary Resistances. You don't waste them against the fireballs and lightning bolts, you save them for the polymorphs or other insta-campaign-deflation spells that would make the big baddie pointless. Of course nothing stops the PC from simply trying again next round.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Yes, this is why you need to give solo BBEGs Legendary Resistances equal to the number of full casters in the party times the number of rounds you want the combat to last. Though the simpler solution in this case is to not have solo monsters, one hit from anything would pop the BBEG back out of a Pirannah polymorph.
Imagine it’s your first day as a minion for the big bad, and these heroes show up and one of them does some magic nonsense that turns your boss into a fish that’s now just flopping on the floor. The other minions are fighting the heroes and one of them shouts “hey! new guy! PUNCH THE BOSS QUICK”
pronouns: he/she/they
Thanks for the image, some how I imagined this as Goblins... then realised the new guy goblin probably tries to eat his boss. Oh gawd! I'm crying now!
Even in 2014, there were a number of ways of killing a polymorphed creature without it reverting, they were just somewhat harder to achieve (though "turn it into a Tiny creature, drop it into a Tiny hole, and let polymorph end" wasn't exactly hard).
Thinking again about some answers, if we rule a creature is still a creature even when it's dead (*), I guess it wouldn't immediately revert if affected by Polymorph upon death?
At the same time, even if we rule dead creatures that way, the outcome with True Polymorph could be different:
And depending on this, many spells would persist for some time even after the creature is dead. For example, Hold Person or Hold Monster.
(*) recent threads I remember:
- Question about Planar Binding
- Question about Scrying on a dead person