So, if I understand correctly, Gloom Stalker Ranger 5/Fighter 2 could get 6 attacks in the first round with Action Surge.
Now lets say, for the sake of argument, that this character has a Wisdom of 20, and multi-classed to get War Cleric 1.
How does War Priest interact with Action Surge and Dread Ambusher? Could the character get an additional attack as a bonus action in the first round, for a total of 7? And then 3 in each of the three following turns?
Yes this all works. I assume you are using a two handed weapon to get the most out of this. With the polearm master feat you would continue to get the bonus action attack every round but it would be 1d4+bonus instead of 1d10 or 1d8. If using a hand crossbow then the crossbow expert feat would do the same for you.
two weapon fighting style would get you that attack mod too. but again, feats like crossbow expert or polearm master get you a bonus action attack as well. Those tend to be more interesting than War Cleric, because the cleric's is has a resource cost.
So, if I understand correctly, Gloom Stalker Ranger 5/Fighter 2 could get 6 attacks in the first round with Action Surge.
Now lets say, for the sake of argument, that this character has a Wisdom of 20, and multi-classed to get War Cleric 1.
How does War Priest interact with Action Surge and Dread Ambusher? Could the character get an additional attack as a bonus action in the first round, for a total of 7? And then 3 in each of the three following turns?
Please break it down for me. TNX!
The "standard" combination here is Fighter 11/Gloom Stalker 3 with the Crossbow Expert feat rather than a level in War Cleric. The breakdown for that is as follows:
Turn 1:
Action 1: 3 base + 1 Gloom Stalker from Turn 1 = 4
Action 2: 3 base + 1 Glom Stalker from Turn 1 = 4 (8 total)
+1 Bonus Action attack from Crossbow Expert = 9 attacks total
I knew the gloom got an extra attack on their first turn but I was surprised that the wording does indeed imply that both attack actions get that extra attack. Nice!
So, if I understand correctly, Gloom Stalker Ranger 5/Fighter 2 could get 6 attacks in the first round with Action Surge.
Now lets say, for the sake of argument, that this character has a Wisdom of 20, and multi-classed to get War Cleric 1.
How does War Priest interact with Action Surge and Dread Ambusher? Could the character get an additional attack as a bonus action in the first round, for a total of 7? And then 3 in each of the three following turns?
Please break it down for me. TNX!
The "standard" combination here is Fighter 11/Gloom Stalker 3 with the Crossbow Expert feat rather than a level in War Cleric. The breakdown for that is as follows:
Turn 1:
Action 1: 3 base + 1 Gloom Stalker from Turn 1 = 4
Action 2: 3 base + 1 Glom Stalker from Turn 1 = 4 (8 total)
+1 Bonus Action attack from Crossbow Expert = 9 attacks total
Turn 2+: 3 base + 1 Bonus Action from CBE = 4
Another advantage of going Crossbow Expert besides the resource free Bonus Action attack is the Archery fighting style. The +2 to your attack rolls is the best fighting style for damage and makes Sharpshooter that much better.
Also the fact that it works with Elven Accuracy is nice. However you are probably better off spending the ASI on something else rather than further investing in damage output.
War Cleric wins only if you have 1 or 2 fights in a day. That's only compounded if you're actually focusing on martial damage with the GWM/SS feats, where the weapon dice are only a minor part of the damage.
I just thought of a way to make this even better! You take Fighter to 5 instead of Ranger and go with Echo Knight (you can manifest your Echo before combat as it doesn't time out). Now, on your first turn, you can do:
2 Attacks (from Extra Attack [Fighter 5]) with the Attack Action
1 Attack with Dread Ambusher
1 Attack with Unleash Incarnation
- Action Surge -
2 Attacks with the Attack Action
1 Attack with Dread Ambusher
1 Attack with Unleash Incarnation
1 Attack with War Priest Bonus Action
9 Attacks in the first round of combat
With two levels of Paladin, you have 6 spell slots, so you can smite on 6 of the attacks you hit (2 of them being level 2 spells, so 3d8). Using GWM and a Greataxe, you get 9d12 + 18 (+2 Str Mod) + 90 (GWM) + 8d8 (4 level 1 Smites) + 6d8 (2 level 2 Smites) + 1d4 (Tasha's Favored Foe) + 2d8 (Dread Ambusher) = an average of 241 damage in the first round.
Does this make you MAD? Absolutely! Are you burning almost all of your resources in a single round? 100% Being a level 11 character that can almost kill an Adult Red Dragon in a single turn? Priceless.
Push this to Fighter 11, Ranger 4, and Paladin 4 (Oath of Conquest to get that +10 if you roll badly with your GWM), this gets you 11 attacks and 9 Smites in the first turn, and you can bump your Str Mod to a +5 making your new grand total: 360.5 damage on the first turn.
I went with a similar build but instead of taking that 1 level in cleric I took an additional level in Fighter. I also allocated ASI's differently due to being a Dex focused build to show how going the Crossbow Expert route compares to the War Domain cleric Bonus Action attack. The crossbow expert build uses the feat for the bonus action attack but otherwise is attacking with thrown daggers darts. This lets it use not only the more beneficial Archery fighting style, but also stack with it the Thrown Weapon fighting style and the Dueling fighting style. We start with our hand crossbow in one hand and the other empty, throw 8 daggers darts to utilize the Thrown Weapon and Dueling styles, and then make the Bonus Action hand crossbow attack.
Cleric Build: 9 attacks and 9 smites 9(2d6 + 5 + 10) + 4(2d8) + 3(3d8) + 2(4d8) + 2(1d8) + 1d4 = 210 + 36 + 40.5 + 36 + 9 + 2.5 = 334 average damage before considering hit and crit chance (The Great Weapon fighting style shifts the greatsword average damage from 3.5 to 4.16667 so that is why the expected weapon damage is 210 rather than 198)
So the Crossbow Expert build is behind 35.5 in average weapon damage and 36 in smite damage. But it is more accurate so lets take into account hit and crit chance, assuming a 60% base chance to hit:
Cleric Build: Using GWM brings our hit chance down to 35% (1-0.65)(210) + 9(1-0.95)(25/6) = 75.375 expected weapon damage (I denote hit and crit chance as 1 minus miss chance because it makes the math for factoring in advantage later easier) 9(1-0.65) = 3.15 hits in the round. Assuming we use our top slots first lets calculate our expected smite damage 2(4d8 + (1-0.95)(4d8)) + 1.15(3d8 + (1-0.95)(3d8)) = ~54.101 expected smite damage 2((1-0.65)(1d8) + (1-0.95)(1d8)) = 3.6 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage (Remeber, the Dread Ambusher free attacks need to hit to get this bonus damage) (1-0.65^9)(1d4) + (1-0.95)(1d4) = ~2.573 expected Favor Foe damage (Only one of the 9 attacks needs to hit for this bonus damage to proc) 75.375 + 54.101 + 3.6 + 2.573 = ~135.649 total expected damage
Crossbow Expert Build: Using SS along with the Archery fighting style brings our hit chance down to 45% (1-0.55)(156) + 8(1-0.95)(2.5) + (1-0.55)(18.5) + (1-0.95)(3.5) = 79.7 expected weapon damage 9(1-0.55) = 4.05 hits in the round. Assuming we use our top slots first lets calculate our expected smite damage 3(3d8 + (1-0.95)(3d8)) + 1.05(2d8 + (1-0.95)(2d8)) = ~52.448 expected smite damage 2((1-0.55)(1d8) + (1-0.95)(1d8)) = 4.5 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage (1-0.55^9)(1d4) + (1-0.95)(1d4) = ~2.613 expected Favor Foe damage 79.7 + 52.448 + 4.5 + 2.613 = ~139.261 total expected damage
So after accounting for hit and crit chance the Crossbow Expert build can expect to do over 3 more damage in this once per day alpha round while being less resource dependent in general. If you only go with the Thrown Weapon fighting style and skip Dueling, then the average weapon damage is 19.5 instead of 21.5 and this makes the expected weapon damage 79.7 and this build still comes out ahead.
Also, while this is focused on a turn 1 alpha strike we should still consider subsequent rounds. Assuming we don't spend any resources then the Cleric build with 3 Greatsword attacks averages 23.625 damage. This goes up to 24.748 if we account for the Bonus Action attack from GWM if we crit. The Crossbow Expert daggers dart throwing build does 35.2 damage on the following rounds.
Two final considerations is the Crossbow Expert build has Elven Accuracy which is really nice for those smite crits, and this build is ranged so you are much more likely to actually be able to attack something on turn 1.
***EDIT*** I realized that Sharpshooter -5/+10 is restricted to Ranged Weapons so can't be used alongside the Dueling fighting style which is restricted to Melee Weapons. I will update the body when I can edit this from a computer. Just replace the daggers with darts and the rest of the build works.
Cleric Build: Using GWM brings our hit chance down to 35% (1-0.65^2)(210) + 9(1-0.95^2)(25/6) = ~124.931 expected weapon damage 9(1-0.65^2) = ~5.198 hits in the round. Assuming we use our top slots first lets calculate our expected smite damage 2(4d8 + (1-0.95^2)(4d8)) + 3(3d8 + (1-0.95^2)(3d8)) + 0.198(2d8) = ~85.914 expected smite damage 2((1-0.65^2)(1d8) + (1-0.95^2)(1d8)) = 6.075 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage (1-0.65^18)(1d4) + (1-0.95^2)(1d4) = ~2.743 expected Favor Foe damage 124.931 + 85.914 + 6.075 + 2.743 = ~219.663 total expected damage
Crossbow Expert Build: Using SS along with the Archery fighting style brings our hit chance down to 45% (1-0.55^3)(156) + 8(1-0.95^3)(2.5) + (1-0.55^3)(18.5) + (1-0.95^3)(3.5) = ~148.819 expected weapon damage 9(1-0.55^3) = 7.503 hits in the round. We now average more hits in the first round than we have spell slots to smite with. 3(3d8 + (1-0.95^3)(3d8)) + 4(2d8 + (1-0.95^3)(2d8)) = ~87.411 expected smite damage 2((1-0.55^3)(1d8) + (1-0.95^3)(1d8)) = ~8.786 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage (1-0.55^27)(1d4) + (1-0.95^3)(1d4) = ~2.857 expected Favor Foe damage 148.819 + 87.411 + 8.786 + 2.857 = ~247.873total expected damage
***EDIT*** I realized that Sharpshooter -5/+10 is restricted to Ranged Weapons so can't be used alongside the Dueling fighting style which is restricted to Melee Weapons. I will update the body when I can edit this from a computer. Just replace the daggers with darts and the rest of the build works.
So, if I understand correctly, Gloom Stalker Ranger 5/Fighter 2 could get 6 attacks in the first round with Action Surge.
Now lets say, for the sake of argument, that this character has a Wisdom of 20, and multi-classed to get War Cleric 1.
How does War Priest interact with Action Surge and Dread Ambusher? Could the character get an additional attack as a bonus action in the first round, for a total of 7? And then 3 in each of the three following turns?
Please break it down for me. TNX!
That's possible. There are also other ways to get bonus action attacks (particularly through feats or two weapon fighting).
Yes this all works. I assume you are using a two handed weapon to get the most out of this. With the polearm master feat you would continue to get the bonus action attack every round but it would be 1d4+bonus instead of 1d10 or 1d8. If using a hand crossbow then the crossbow expert feat would do the same for you.
two weapon fighting style would get you that attack mod too. but again, feats like crossbow expert or polearm master get you a bonus action attack as well. Those tend to be more interesting than War Cleric, because the cleric's is has a resource cost.
The "standard" combination here is Fighter 11/Gloom Stalker 3 with the Crossbow Expert feat rather than a level in War Cleric. The breakdown for that is as follows:
I knew the gloom got an extra attack on their first turn but I was surprised that the wording does indeed imply that both attack actions get that extra attack. Nice!
Another advantage of going Crossbow Expert besides the resource free Bonus Action attack is the Archery fighting style. The +2 to your attack rolls is the best fighting style for damage and makes Sharpshooter that much better.
Also the fact that it works with Elven Accuracy is nice. However you are probably better off spending the ASI on something else rather than further investing in damage output.
War Cleric wins only if you have 1 or 2 fights in a day. That's only compounded if you're actually focusing on martial damage with the GWM/SS feats, where the weapon dice are only a minor part of the damage.
Here is an alternative to consider: https://ddb.ac/characters/79120324/pkLJgU
I went with a similar build but instead of taking that 1 level in cleric I took an additional level in Fighter. I also allocated ASI's differently due to being a Dex focused build to show how going the Crossbow Expert route compares to the War Domain cleric Bonus Action attack. The crossbow expert build uses the feat for the bonus action attack but otherwise is attacking with thrown
daggersdarts. This lets it use not only the more beneficial Archery fighting style, but also stack with it the Thrown Weapon fighting styleand the Dueling fighting style. We start with our hand crossbow in one hand and the other empty, throw 8daggersdarts to utilize the Thrown Weaponand Dueling styles, and then make the Bonus Action hand crossbow attack.Cleric Build: 9 attacks and 9 smites
9(2d6 + 5 + 10) + 4(2d8) + 3(3d8) + 2(4d8) + 2(1d8) + 1d4 = 210 + 36 + 40.5 + 36 + 9 + 2.5 = 334 average damage before considering hit and crit chance
(The Great Weapon fighting style shifts the greatsword average damage from 3.5 to 4.16667 so that is why the expected weapon damage is 210 rather than 198)
Crossbow Expert Build: 9 attacks and 7 smites
8(1d4 + 5 + 10 + 2) + 1(1d6 + 5 + 10) + 4(2d8) + 3(3d8) + 2(1d8) + 1d4 = 156 + 18.5 + 36 + 40.5 + 9 + 2.5 = 262.5 average damage before considering hit and crit chance
So the Crossbow Expert build is behind 35.5 in average weapon damage and 36 in smite damage. But it is more accurate so lets take into account hit and crit chance, assuming a 60% base chance to hit:
Cleric Build: Using GWM brings our hit chance down to 35%
(1-0.65)(210) + 9(1-0.95)(25/6) = 75.375 expected weapon damage
(I denote hit and crit chance as 1 minus miss chance because it makes the math for factoring in advantage later easier)
9(1-0.65) = 3.15 hits in the round. Assuming we use our top slots first lets calculate our expected smite damage
2(4d8 + (1-0.95)(4d8)) + 1.15(3d8 + (1-0.95)(3d8)) = ~54.101 expected smite damage
2((1-0.65)(1d8) + (1-0.95)(1d8)) = 3.6 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage (Remeber, the Dread Ambusher free attacks need to hit to get this bonus damage)
(1-0.65^9)(1d4) + (1-0.95)(1d4) = ~2.573 expected Favor Foe damage (Only one of the 9 attacks needs to hit for this bonus damage to proc)
75.375 + 54.101 + 3.6 + 2.573 = ~135.649 total expected damage
Crossbow Expert Build: Using SS along with the Archery fighting style brings our hit chance down to 45%
(1-0.55)(156) + 8(1-0.95)(2.5) + (1-0.55)(18.5) + (1-0.95)(3.5) = 79.7 expected weapon damage
9(1-0.55) = 4.05 hits in the round. Assuming we use our top slots first lets calculate our expected smite damage
3(3d8 + (1-0.95)(3d8)) + 1.05(2d8 + (1-0.95)(2d8)) = ~52.448 expected smite damage
2((1-0.55)(1d8) + (1-0.95)(1d8)) = 4.5 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage
(1-0.55^9)(1d4) + (1-0.95)(1d4) = ~2.613 expected Favor Foe damage
79.7 + 52.448 + 4.5 + 2.613 = ~139.261 total expected damage
So after accounting for hit and crit chance the Crossbow Expert build can expect to do over 3 more damage in this once per day alpha round while being less resource dependent in general.
If you only go with the Thrown Weapon fighting style and skip Dueling, then the average weapon damage is 19.5 instead of 21.5 and this makes the expected weapon damage 79.7 and this build still comes out ahead.Also, while this is focused on a turn 1 alpha strike we should still consider subsequent rounds. Assuming we don't spend any resources then the Cleric build with 3 Greatsword attacks averages 23.625 damage. This goes up to 24.748 if we account for the Bonus Action attack from GWM if we crit. The Crossbow Expert
daggersdart throwing build does 35.2 damage on the following rounds.Two final considerations is the Crossbow Expert build has Elven Accuracy which is really nice for those smite crits, and this build is ranged so you are much more likely to actually be able to attack something on turn 1.
***EDIT*** I realized that Sharpshooter -5/+10 is restricted to Ranged Weapons so can't be used alongside the Dueling fighting style which is restricted to Melee Weapons. I will update the body when I can edit this from a computer. Just replace the daggers with darts and the rest of the build works.
The body has been updated ***EDIT***
Here is the same calculations with advantage.
Cleric Build: Using GWM brings our hit chance down to 35%
(1-0.65^2)(210) + 9(1-0.95^2)(25/6) = ~124.931 expected weapon damage
9(1-0.65^2) = ~5.198 hits in the round. Assuming we use our top slots first lets calculate our expected smite damage
2(4d8 + (1-0.95^2)(4d8)) + 3(3d8 + (1-0.95^2)(3d8)) + 0.198(2d8) = ~85.914 expected smite damage
2((1-0.65^2)(1d8) + (1-0.95^2)(1d8)) = 6.075 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage
(1-0.65^18)(1d4) + (1-0.95^2)(1d4) = ~2.743 expected Favor Foe damage
124.931 + 85.914 + 6.075 + 2.743 = ~219.663 total expected damage
Crossbow Expert Build: Using SS along with the Archery fighting style brings our hit chance down to 45%
(1-0.55^3)(156) + 8(1-0.95^3)(2.5) + (1-0.55^3)(18.5) + (1-0.95^3)(3.5) = ~148.819 expected weapon damage
9(1-0.55^3) = 7.503 hits in the round. We now average more hits in the first round than we have spell slots to smite with.
3(3d8 + (1-0.95^3)(3d8)) + 4(2d8 + (1-0.95^3)(2d8)) = ~87.411 expected smite damage
2((1-0.55^3)(1d8) + (1-0.95^3)(1d8)) = ~8.786 expected Dread Ambusher bonus damage
(1-0.55^27)(1d4) + (1-0.95^3)(1d4) = ~2.857 expected Favor Foe damage
148.819 + 87.411 + 8.786 + 2.857 = ~247.873total expected damage
***EDIT*** I realized that Sharpshooter -5/+10 is restricted to Ranged Weapons so can't be used alongside the Dueling fighting style which is restricted to Melee Weapons. I will update the body when I can edit this from a computer. Just replace the daggers with darts and the rest of the build works.
The body has been updated ***EDIT***