Wasn't sure where to put this thread, but figured maybe other people had heard about how to utilize some of the features.
Specifically casting spells through your tethered target. For Touch/Melee Spells like Vampiric Touch or Greenflame Blade. Do these work since Genie Pact says you can cast the spells from the tethered target, and if so do they make the attack rolls with their stats instead of yours? In addition who benefits from the healing of Vampiric Touch? You the Caster, or the Tethered ally making the attack for you?
I think the ability to cast spells through your tethered target is an amazing ability. Especially combo'd with the Invisible Familiars of Pact of the Chain, or on a Barbarian or Paladin who will be up in the enemy's face. The later features giving you plenty of manipulation to make the subclass feel highly competent in the role of supporting your frontline party members while minimizing risk to yourself.
I actually don't understand why you see people in other forums like reddit trashing this subclass.
I do find it confusing how some spell interactions work though, hence my question about the Touch/Melee spells Warlock has access to. I suppose it'd be a good question on top of that if Charm or Fear inducing spells would make them flee from your Tethered Ally or you as well since it's delivered from them.
Right so you're saying it should be Touch good! Melee Spell Attack Bad! And all effects respond to the caster so the Warlock gets the Healing from say Vampiric Touch, and the enemy would Fear/be Charmed by the Warlock and not the Barbarian if you delivered it through them.
Right so you're saying it should be Touch good! Melee Spell Attack Bad! And all effects respond to the caster so the Warlock gets the Healing from say Vampiric Touch, and the enemy would Fear/be Charmed by the Warlock and not the Barbarian if you delivered it through them.
I didn't come to a conclusion about touch or melee spell attacks (GFB and BB require melee weapon attacks and that definitely doesn't work). But the other stuff is what I meant yes.
I came to say that of the features like this, there doesn’t seem to be consistent wording. The wording of this one is very similar to the trickery domain cleric’s invoke duplicity, but that feature has a bit different wording. The UA wildfire Druid’s ability is worded significantly differently. I don’t know how many other features like this exist, but I assume there are more.
I also don’t know if the differences in wording lead to important mechanical differences.
Let's contrast the Noble Genie Pact's Collector's Vesselwith Find Familiar, which is the other spell/ability which it most closely resembles.
Find Familiar
... Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.
Collector's Vessel
...When you can cast a spell, you can deliver the spell from your space or the bound creature’s space.
Find Familiar is more limited in what can be cast (only spells with a range of touch), and specifies that it is the creature casting the spell (or at least being treated as if it had cast the spell). Vampiric Touch cannot be cast by a Familiar because its range is "self," but if it could , then it would be the Familiar gaining the HP and gaining the ability to make melee spell attacks on future rounds (which it wouldn't actually be able to take, due to the restriction on Familiars making attacks, but you get my drift).
Collector's Vessel has no restriction on what spells can be cast, but does not allow the bound creature to cast the spell (or be treated as though it had cast the spell), it just uses their space as an origin point. Vampiric Touchcan be cast, but it gains you hit points, and gives you the melee spell attack ability on future rounds not your tethered creature. And those melee spell attacks cannot originate from your tethered creature's space, because they are not "casting a spell," they are just a special action you now have.
Collector's Vessel is too broad to examine the interaction of each and every spell, but just in general, keep that rule of thumb in mind: it does not give your bound creature the ability to cast spells, it just treats you the caster as if you are standing in that square when you cast the spell (but not when you use any other non-casting-a-spell special actions which spells may have given you).
Let's contrast the Noble Genie Pact's Collector's Vesselwith Find Familiar, which is the other spell/ability which it most closely resembles.
Find Familiar
... Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.
Collector's Vessel
...When you can cast a spell, you can deliver the spell from your space or the bound creature’s space.
Find Familiar is more limited in what can be cast (only spells with a range of touch), and specifies that it is the creature casting the spell (or at least being treated as if it had cast the spell). Vampiric Touch cannot be cast by a Familiar because its range is "self," but if it could , then it would be the Familiar gaining the HP and gaining the ability to make melee spell attacks on future rounds (which it wouldn't actually be able to take, due to the restriction on Familiars making attacks, but you get my drift).
Collector's Vessel has no restriction on what spells can be cast, but does not allow the bound creature to cast the spell (or be treated as though it had cast the spell), it just uses their space as an origin point. Vampiric Touchcan be cast, but it gains you hit points, and gives you the melee spell attack ability on future rounds not your tethered creature. And those melee spell attacks cannot originate from your tethered creature's space, because they are not "casting a spell," they are just a special action you now have.
Collector's Vessel is too broad to examine the interaction of each and every spell, but just in general, keep that rule of thumb in mind: it does not give your bound creature the ability to cast spells, it just treats you the caster as if you are standing in that square when you cast the spell (but not when you use any other non-casting-a-spell special actions which spells may have given you).
Thank you for the comparison. It helps greatly.
Honestly the Genie Pact is my favorite of the new Subclasses because of the potential of the mechanics it brings. Swapping with the Barbarian or Fighter when an enemy isolates you when you get the Level 10 Feature is simply fantastic. Banishment in any form is helpful. I feel the level 14 isn't as fantastic as say Archfey's, but it works still. It just comes down to the implementation of the casting through your tethered ally if they officially release this Subclass and how they refine it then.
As is I hope this subclass does make it through as the mechanic is a fun way to approach combat. It seems like a strong subclass to take the Chain Pact with or Tome for some choice spells to cast through.
I would like to see your comparison with duplicity as well though, since even though it isn't as similar in its flavor, the wording of its mechanics I think are most similar. (And since so far I agree with what you've said)
Invoke duplicity
...For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses.
For reference, here is the text from wildfire:
Enhanced Bond
...In addition, when you cast a spell with a range other than self, the spell can originate from you or your wildfire spirit.
The other question I have that goes along with these is why do we need four (or more?) slightly different wordings on these effects when it seems to be that they all have essentially the same intention, only differing on the limitations of the spells that can and cannot be cast. Or, is it intentional that some of these abilities have minor differences that are from their wording rather than just the limitations on spells?
For example, my reading of Invoke Duplicity means that a cleric with green flame bladecould cast it on someone next to the duplicate. You cast the spell as if you are over there, and part of casting that spell is taking the melee attack, which means I think you are considered over there for that attack, and could do it.
Wasn't sure where to put this thread, but figured maybe other people had heard about how to utilize some of the features.
Specifically casting spells through your tethered target. For Touch/Melee Spells like Vampiric Touch or Greenflame Blade. Do these work since Genie Pact says you can cast the spells from the tethered target, and if so do they make the attack rolls with their stats instead of yours? In addition who benefits from the healing of Vampiric Touch? You the Caster, or the Tethered ally making the attack for you?
I think the ability to cast spells through your tethered target is an amazing ability. Especially combo'd with the Invisible Familiars of Pact of the Chain, or on a Barbarian or Paladin who will be up in the enemy's face. The later features giving you plenty of manipulation to make the subclass feel highly competent in the role of supporting your frontline party members while minimizing risk to yourself.
I actually don't understand why you see people in other forums like reddit trashing this subclass.
I do find it confusing how some spell interactions work though, hence my question about the Touch/Melee spells Warlock has access to. I suppose it'd be a good question on top of that if Charm or Fear inducing spells would make them flee from your Tethered Ally or you as well since it's delivered from them.
I was also wondering/unsure how it works with touch ranges and melee spell attacks. I can answer your other questions.
Green flame blade and booming blade don't work. While the spell's range may go through the tethered ally, the required melee weapon attack can not.
You are the one casting the spell, you roll the dice and add your modifiers, and you reap all the benefits of casting the spell.
Right so you're saying it should be Touch good! Melee Spell Attack Bad! And all effects respond to the caster so the Warlock gets the Healing from say Vampiric Touch, and the enemy would Fear/be Charmed by the Warlock and not the Barbarian if you delivered it through them.
I didn't come to a conclusion about touch or melee spell attacks (GFB and BB require melee weapon attacks and that definitely doesn't work). But the other stuff is what I meant yes.
I came to say that of the features like this, there doesn’t seem to be consistent wording. The wording of this one is very similar to the trickery domain cleric’s invoke duplicity, but that feature has a bit different wording. The UA wildfire Druid’s ability is worded significantly differently. I don’t know how many other features like this exist, but I assume there are more.
I also don’t know if the differences in wording lead to important mechanical differences.
Let's contrast the Noble Genie Pact's Collector's Vessel with Find Familiar, which is the other spell/ability which it most closely resembles.
Find Familiar is more limited in what can be cast (only spells with a range of touch), and specifies that it is the creature casting the spell (or at least being treated as if it had cast the spell). Vampiric Touch cannot be cast by a Familiar because its range is "self," but if it could , then it would be the Familiar gaining the HP and gaining the ability to make melee spell attacks on future rounds (which it wouldn't actually be able to take, due to the restriction on Familiars making attacks, but you get my drift).
Collector's Vessel has no restriction on what spells can be cast, but does not allow the bound creature to cast the spell (or be treated as though it had cast the spell), it just uses their space as an origin point. Vampiric Touch can be cast, but it gains you hit points, and gives you the melee spell attack ability on future rounds not your tethered creature. And those melee spell attacks cannot originate from your tethered creature's space, because they are not "casting a spell," they are just a special action you now have.
Collector's Vessel is too broad to examine the interaction of each and every spell, but just in general, keep that rule of thumb in mind: it does not give your bound creature the ability to cast spells, it just treats you the caster as if you are standing in that square when you cast the spell (but not when you use any other non-casting-a-spell special actions which spells may have given you).
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thank you for the comparison. It helps greatly.
Honestly the Genie Pact is my favorite of the new Subclasses because of the potential of the mechanics it brings. Swapping with the Barbarian or Fighter when an enemy isolates you when you get the Level 10 Feature is simply fantastic. Banishment in any form is helpful. I feel the level 14 isn't as fantastic as say Archfey's, but it works still. It just comes down to the implementation of the casting through your tethered ally if they officially release this Subclass and how they refine it then.
As is I hope this subclass does make it through as the mechanic is a fun way to approach combat. It seems like a strong subclass to take the Chain Pact with or Tome for some choice spells to cast through.
I would like to see your comparison with duplicity as well though, since even though it isn't as similar in its flavor, the wording of its mechanics I think are most similar. (And since so far I agree with what you've said)
For reference, here is the text from wildfire:
The other question I have that goes along with these is why do we need four (or more?) slightly different wordings on these effects when it seems to be that they all have essentially the same intention, only differing on the limitations of the spells that can and cannot be cast. Or, is it intentional that some of these abilities have minor differences that are from their wording rather than just the limitations on spells?
For example, my reading of Invoke Duplicity means that a cleric with green flame blade could cast it on someone next to the duplicate. You cast the spell as if you are over there, and part of casting that spell is taking the melee attack, which means I think you are considered over there for that attack, and could do it.