If my Cleric emblazons their deity's holy symbol on a shield, can I still cast spells with somatic+material components, or spells with somatic (but no material) components? He's using sword and shield, and I am wondering about AC.
If your holy symbol is on your shield, you don't need a free hand to provide the material component. Since the material component isn't in your hand, you'd need a separate free hand for the somatic components.
No, the emblem on a shield counts as "in your hand" for the combined M and S rules. If you're meeting the M requirement, then you can meet the S component unless your hands are bound.
No, the emblem on a shield counts as "in your hand" for the combined M and S rules. If you're meeting the M requirement, then you can meet the S component unless your hands are bound.
This is incorrect. That's not how it worked in 2014, but it's been made even more explicit in 2024. Holy symbols have a neat little table now that indicates how they're interacted with when used as a focus, and only the reliquary must be held "in your hand," and the emblem can't be held "in your hand." It's on your shield, but it doesn't turn your shield into a focus. The focus is not in your hand; it removes the need for the focus to be in your hand.
The literal word-for-word from Material components is:
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
And all that Emblem says regarding its function for M components is:
An Emblem is a Holy Symbol that is bejeweled or painted to channel divine magic. A Cleric or Paladin can use this item as a Spellcasting Focus
Nothing about further altering the rules for a Focus, which as a corollary means the above rules remain in force for how M and S components interact when an Emblem is providing the M.
The rules for material components say that to use a focus, you must hold it in your hand "unless its description says otherwise." The descriptions for the emblem and amulet holy symbols do say otherwise, as indicated by the table I linked earlier.
The rules for material components say that to use a focus, you must hold it in your hand "unless its description says otherwise." The descriptions for the emblem and amulet holy symbols do say otherwise, as indicated by the table I linked earlier.
I read the rules for M components, and there is no mention of an exception to the "your free hand that handles the M component can also handle the S component" portion. If you have a hand free for a spell's M component, that hand also qualifies for the S component. You always need a free hand, and for all practical purposes you are holding a shield which has effectively become the focus with an Emblem.
The rules for material components say that to use a focus, you must hold it in your hand "unless its description says otherwise." The descriptions for the emblem and amulet holy symbols do say otherwise, as indicated by the table I linked earlier.
I read the rules for M components, and there is no mention of an exception to the "your free hand that handles the M component can also handle the S component" portion. If you have a hand free for a spell's M component, that hand also qualifies for the S component. You always need a free hand, and for all practical purposes you are holding a shield which has effectively become the focus with an Emblem.
You didn't read all the rules then. I already quoted the bit that provides the exception (it looks like I actually inserted the wrong link, however. The correct one is here). You have to read the second paragraph, which is about what to do when you use a component pouch or spellcasting focus instead of providing the components specified in the spell's description, which is what the first paragraph is about.
For Clerics or Paladins, the 2024 description of their Holy Symbols is now better, but the meaning is essentially the same as in 2014:
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
In my opinion, the way Clerics or Paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus remains the same. The Sage Advice Compendium already explained this, and I believe it still holds true for 2024.
If a spell has a material component, you need to handle that component when you cast the spell. The same rule applies if you’re using a spellcasting focus as the material component.
If a spell has a somatic component, you can use the hand that performs the somatic component to also handle the material component. For example, a wizard who uses an orb as a spellcasting focus could hold a quarterstaff in one hand and the orb in the other, and he could cast lightning bolt by using the orb as the spell’s material component and the orb hand to perform the spell’s somatic component.
Another example: a cleric’s holy symbol is emblazoned on her shield. She likes to wade into melee combat with a mace in one hand and a shield in the other. She uses the holy symbol as her spellcasting focus, so she needs to have the shield in hand when she casts a cleric spell that has a material component. If the spell, such as aid, also has a somatic component, she can perform that component with the shield hand and keep holding the mace in the other.
If the same cleric casts cure wounds, she needs to put the mace or the shield away, because that spell doesn’t have a material component but does have a somatic component. She’s going to need a free hand to make the spell’s gestures. If she had the War Caster feat, she could ignore this restriction.
On the contrary; they've changed materially (he he he), though perhaps unintentionally, as I'll address in a bit.
For Clerics or Paladins, the 2024 description of their Holy Symbols is now better, but the meaning is essentially the same as in 2014:
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
In my opinion, the way Clerics or Paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus remains the same. The Sage Advice Compendium already explained this, and I believe it still holds true for 2024.
Neither clerics nor paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus, though with that clarification out of the way, I agree that nothing about that has changed between 2014 and 2024. The Sage Advice entry was wrong before the 2024 revision, and it's no longer relevant after the 2024 revision. It invented from whole cloth the notion that a shield emblazoned with a holy symbol is a holy symbol, an idea found absolutely nowhere in the actual text. The 2024 text that makes this abundantly clear serves as an acknowledgment that Crawford just got it wrong in Sage Advice.
There's not actually any ambiguity at all here. There's only one valid conclusion if you let the text speak for itself, rather than presupposing a conclusion and working backward from there. And the ways in which the text has changed make it clear that it's 100% intentional. For comparison, here's the relevant bit of the 2014 rules:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components — or to hold a spellcasting focus — but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.
Now, let's examine the first paragraph of the new 2024 rules:
A Material component is a particular material used in a spell’s casting, as specified in parentheses in the Components entry. These materials aren’t consumed by the spell unless the spell’s description states otherwise. The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
So far, none of this has makes any reference to component pouches or spellcasting foci. This text is only relevant if you provide the loose components specifically indicated by the spell's description. That's already a change from the 2014 version, which seems to treat loose components, a pouch, and a focus as largely interchangeable. Let's continue and see if the changes produce anything more interesting:
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them, a spellcaster can use a Component Pouch (see chapter 6) instead of providing the materials specified in the spell, or the spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution.
Here we get our first mention of other options. If the components are free and not consumed, we don't need to provide loose components; we can use a component pouch or a focus instead. In those cases, we're no longer accessing loose components, so the first paragraph's text about the free hand doesn't work anymore. Hopefully, this new way to fulfill a material component has some text clarifying what to do with our hands in this case. Let's read on and see if that hope bears fruit.
To use a Component Pouch, you must have a hand free to reach into it, and to use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see chapter 6 for descriptions).
Okay, so if we use a component pouch, we do still need a free hand. That makes sense, and it's good to know. However, if we use a spellcasting focus, we don't. We need a hand that's occupied by the focus, unless the focus's description says otherwise. This is indeed more or less equivalent to the 2014 text that says "you need a free hand to handle a focus," except that the "unless you're using an emblem or amulet holy symbol" exception wasn't even vaguely gestured to before and was instead found only if you happened to read the holy symbol's description carefully. Like I said, this exception was always there. But it's very nice to see the general material component rules explicitly note the possibility that some foci don't actually need to be in your hand. They could be around your neck or on your shield instead. This what I've already demonstrated earlier in this thread. If you just allow the text to do what it says it's doing, it's quite clear. But we're not quite done yet.
If you recall, at the beginning of this post, I mentioned that the rules had materially changed. What's changed is that, if you use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus, there's no text that says the hand you use for them (should you need one) can be the hand you use for somatic components. If you're holding a spellcasting focus, you need a separate free hand for the somatic components. This may well be an oversight. Clarifying that you don't always need a hand for a focus is obviously intentional, but omitting this allowance? Could easily go either way. I'm not invested in arguing for or against that intent, but the text is what it is. This change isn't really relevant to my thesis, but I do think it's interesting.
You’re wrong at the most fundamental premise. Given that the Sage Advice entries posted on Beyond are official rules clarifications, then by definition they cannot be wrong, if only in terms of describing the RAI. It says if you have an Emblem on a shield, holding that shield meets the requirements of a holy symbol focus for M components and consequently means that hand qualifies for S components. That’s it, end of story, and there is no reason to believe they made some subtle change to the wording specifically to change that without actually drawing attention to the change.
If you recall, at the beginning of this post, I mentioned that the rules had materially changed. What's changed is that, if you use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus, there's no text that says the hand you use for them (should you need one) can be the hand you use for somatic components. If you're holding a spellcasting focus, you need a separate free hand for the somatic components. This may well be an oversight. Clarifying that you don't always need a hand for a focus is obviously intentional, but omitting this allowance? Could easily go either way. I'm not invested in arguing for or against that intent, but the text is what it is. This change isn't really relevant to my thesis, but I do think it's interesting.
I disagree with this conclusion, but I agree with pretty much everything else that you've been saying in this thread.
The text says that "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any". In my opinion, the "them" in that statement refers to "Material Components" as a broad category, not to any specific tangible thing. The Component Pouch and the Spellcasting Focus are both explicitly used as a direct substitution for the individual particular materials that are used in the spell's casting -- all of these are considered to be the Material Component, which requires a free hand by general rule. Later on, there is a specific rule for certain Spellcasting Focus items that do not require this free hand.
I read the rules for M components, and there is no mention of an exception to the "your free hand that handles the M component can also handle the S component" portion. If you have a hand free for a spell's M component, that hand also qualifies for the S component.
This logic is actually backwards. It's the other way around.
First, you need a free hand for the S component. Pretty much full stop. That's because you actually have to perform gestures with your hand. Now, if the spell also has an M component, you can use the hand that you were using for your S component to satisfy your M component. But not the other way around. If for some reason you do not need a free hand for your M component, that does not also satisfy the S component -- you still actually have to perform gestures with your hand no matter what.
You always need a free hand, and for all practical purposes you are holding a shield which has effectively become the focus with an Emblem.
Technically this isn't quite right, so this isn't good enough to satisfy the requirement. The shield is not the focus. You cannot use your shield hand to perform gestures. The focus is the emblem, which does not require a free hand to use. Again, you have to start with the free hand that you will be using to perform gestures, not the other way around. A sword-and-board cleric does not have this free hand for the S component.
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The good news is that in 2024 a lot of this becomes moot since the new weapon juggling rules solve a lot of these overly restrictive issues that the 2014 sword-and-board cleric was supposed to be dealing with (which most people were ignoring). Now, this cleric can easily stow his weapon and perform the S component gestures and the M requirements to cast Sanctuary on his ally, then he can run up to an enemy, draw his weapon and attack that enemy. Same thing for a sword-and-board Paladin who wants to cast Divine Favor before attacking, and so on. The free hand requirement for spellcasting has now become mostly a flavor thing rather than an actual restriction.
If you recall, at the beginning of this post, I mentioned that the rules had materially changed. What's changed is that, if you use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus, there's no text that says the hand you use for them (should you need one) can be the hand you use for somatic components. If you're holding a spellcasting focus, you need a separate free hand for the somatic components. This may well be an oversight. Clarifying that you don't always need a hand for a focus is obviously intentional, but omitting this allowance? Could easily go either way. I'm not invested in arguing for or against that intent, but the text is what it is. This change isn't really relevant to my thesis, but I do think it's interesting.
I disagree with this conclusion, but I agree with pretty much everything else that you've been saying in this thread.
The text says that "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any". In my opinion, the "them" in that statement refers to "Material Components" as a broad category, not to any specific tangible thing. The Component Pouch and the Spellcasting Focus are both explicitly used as a direct substitution for the individual particular materials that are used in the spell's casting -- all of these are considered to be the Material Component, which requires a free hand by general rule. Later on, there is a specific rule for certain Spellcasting Focus items that do not require this free hand.
I read the rules for M components, and there is no mention of an exception to the "your free hand that handles the M component can also handle the S component" portion. If you have a hand free for a spell's M component, that hand also qualifies for the S component.
This logic is actually backwards. It's the other way around.
First, you need a free hand for the S component. Pretty much full stop. That's because you actually have to perform gestures with your hand. Now, if the spell also has an M component, you can use the hand that you were using for your S component to satisfy your M component. But not the other way around. If for some reason you do not need a free hand for your M component, that does not also satisfy the S component -- you still actually have to perform gestures with your hand no matter what.
You always need a free hand, and for all practical purposes you are holding a shield which has effectively become the focus with an Emblem.
Technically this isn't quite right, so this isn't good enough to satisfy the requirement. The shield is not the focus. You cannot use your shield hand to perform gestures. The focus is the emblem, which does not require a free hand to use. Again, you have to start with the free hand that you will be using to perform gestures, not the other way around. A sword-and-board cleric does not have this free hand for the S component.
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The good news is that in 2024 a lot of this becomes moot since the new weapon juggling rules solve a lot of these overly restrictive issues that the 2014 sword-and-board cleric was supposed to be dealing with (which most people were ignoring). Now, this cleric can easily stow his weapon and perform the S component gestures and the M requirements to cast Sanctuary on his ally, then he can run up to an enemy, draw his weapon and attack that enemy. Same thing for a sword-and-board Paladin who wants to cast Divine Favor before attacking, and so on. The free hand requirement for spellcasting has now become mostly a flavor thing rather than an actual restriction.
It completely defeats the purpose of allowing emblems on shields if the shield doesn’t functionally become a focus. The SA above literally says that a Cleric with an Emblem shield meets both M and S components when a spell uses both with the hand holding the shield without any kind of weird juggling. Ergo, for all intents and purposes, the shield is treated as a focus. If the spell had S but no M you could not use that hand, but that’s the general rule. I don’t see how you can look at the SA and somehow still think Emblems create some Byzantine mess of hand interactions.
@SagaTympana I really appreciate your efforts to convince me, honestly, but for me, the reading is just simpler.
From the description of the Holy Symbol:
A Cleric or Paladin can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus.
So yes, an Emblem on a shield is the Spell Casting Focus for a Cleric or Paladin.
Then, according to the Material (M) rules:
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them [the Materials], but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
But this goes with the next addition; they are not separate rules, even though we have two paragraphs in the book:
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them [...] a spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution. [...] To use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see chapter 6 for descriptions).
If you hold the shield, you can use it instead of the material component; they are effectively the same. From the Glossary:
A Spellcasting Focus is an object that certain creatures can use in place of a spell’s Material components if those materials aren’t consumed by the spell and don’t have a cost specified. Some classes allow its members to use certain types of Spellcasting Focuses. See also chapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
[...] if you use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus, there's no text that says the hand you use for them (should you need one) can be the hand you use for somatic components. If you're holding a spellcasting focus, you need a separate free hand for the somatic components. [..]
If this is the key for you, then the answer is here (I quoted it above):
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them [the Materials], but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
@SagaTympana I really appreciate your efforts to convince me, honestly, but for me, the reading is just simpler.
From the description of the Holy Symbol:
A Cleric or Paladin can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus.
So yes, an Emblem on a shield is the Spell Casting Focus for a Cleric or Paladin.
Correct.
Then, according to the Material (M) rules:
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them [the Materials], but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
But this goes with the next addition; they are not separate rules, even though we have two paragraphs in the book:
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them [...] a spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution. [...] To use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see chapter 6 for descriptions).
If you hold the shield, you can use it instead of the material component; they are effectively the same.
Incorrect. There is nothing in the book that suggests the shield is the focus. If you can find any actual rules text to support that idea, I'd be delighted to read it. But it's not at all problematic that the shield isn't a focus, but you're missing it because you're continuing to ignore the "unless its description says otherwise" clause. Ignoring half the section's text isn't an argument.
A Spellcasting Focus is an object that certain creatures can use in place of a spell’s Material components if those materials aren’t consumed by the spell and don’t have a cost specified. Some classes allow its members to use certain types of Spellcasting Focuses. See also chapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
I'm sorry, I don't see anything relevant in this glossary entry.
It completely defeats the purpose of allowing emblems on shields if the shield doesn’t functionally become a focus.
How? The text very clearly states that you do not need to hold the focus when it's an emblem on a shield. There are zero problems caused by the shield not being a focus, unless you just ignore the rules.
The SA above literally says that a Cleric with an Emblem shield meets both M and S components when a spell uses both with the hand holding the shield without any kind of weird juggling. Ergo, for all intents and purposes, the shield is treated as a focus. If the spell had S but no M you could not use that hand, but that’s the general rule. I don’t see how you can look at the SA and somehow still think Emblems create some Byzantine mess of hand interactions.
That Sage Advice was written in context of an older version of the game and cannot be cited when discussing fundamentally different language. It's no longer relevant. And as I said, it was wrong even when it was relevant. The 2024 clarifications are the acknowledgment that it was wrong.
The blatant wholesale dismissal of plain black-and-white rules text is pretty baffling, to be honest, and I'm going to let the text speak for itself until someone actually tries to engage with it instead of ignoring it in favor of the conclusion they wanted to come to before reading it.
If you recall, at the beginning of this post, I mentioned that the rules had materially changed. What's changed is that, if you use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus, there's no text that says the hand you use for them (should you need one) can be the hand you use for somatic components. If you're holding a spellcasting focus, you need a separate free hand for the somatic components. This may well be an oversight. Clarifying that you don't always need a hand for a focus is obviously intentional, but omitting this allowance? Could easily go either way. I'm not invested in arguing for or against that intent, but the text is what it is. This change isn't really relevant to my thesis, but I do think it's interesting.
I disagree with this conclusion, but I agree with pretty much everything else that you've been saying in this thread.
The text says that "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any". In my opinion, the "them" in that statement refers to "Material Components" as a broad category, not to any specific tangible thing. The Component Pouch and the Spellcasting Focus are both explicitly used as a direct substitution for the individual particular materials that are used in the spell's casting -- all of these are considered to be the Material Component, which requires a free hand by general rule. Later on, there is a specific rule for certain Spellcasting Focus items that do not require this free hand.
Thank you for making a case that actually engages with the text. It's refreshing. It's certainly a case, and this quirk is not one I'm particularly interested in debating. I don't find your opinion convincing, because specific tangible things had just been mentioned prior to the line we're talking about. But it's a valid opinion for sure, I can definitely see it.
@SagaTympana I really appreciate your efforts to convince me, honestly, but for me, the reading is just simpler.
From the description of the Holy Symbol:
A Cleric or Paladin can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus.
So yes, an Emblem on a shield is the Spell Casting Focus for a Cleric or Paladin.
Correct.
Then, according to the Material (M) rules:
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them [the Materials], but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
But this goes with the next addition; they are not separate rules, even though we have two paragraphs in the book:
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them [...] a spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution. [...] To use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see chapter 6 for descriptions).
If you hold the shield, you can use it instead of the material component; they are effectively the same.
Incorrect. There is nothing in the book that suggests the shield is the focus. If you can find any actual rules text to support that idea, I'd be delighted to read it. But it's not at all problematic that the shield isn't a focus, but you're missing it because you're continuing to ignore the "unless its description says otherwise" clause. Ignoring half the section's text isn't an argument.
It's difficult for me to progress in the discussion if you don't see the Emblem plus the shield are the Spellcasting Focus, because the book is telling you exactly that:
A Spellcasting Focus is an object that certain creatures can use in place of a spell’s Material components if those materials aren’t consumed by the spell and don’t have a cost specified. Some classes allow its members to use certain types of Spellcasting Focuses. See also chapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
I'm sorry, I don't see anything relevant in this glossary entry.
For Clerics or Paladins, the 2024 description of their Holy Symbols is now better, but the meaning is essentially the same as in 2014:
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
In my opinion, the way Clerics or Paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus remains the same. The Sage Advice Compendium already explained this, and I believe it still holds true for 2024.
Neither clerics nor paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus
This seems to be your fundamental argument but the only way this would make sense is if the emblem is not part of the shield, the emblem is painted or bejewelled on to the shield, it is not a separate item to the shield itself at this point, you can't just remove the paint or jewels and place them on another shield without performing destructive work on the original shield... and paint probably would not transfer easily in this scenario anyway.
This isn't like two dice accessory hanging from a rear view mirror in a car, the emblem is physically made part of the shield and thus the resulting item in the case of an Emblem is the shield itself baring the emblem. The end result is that the shield itself does function as the spellcasting focus.
For Clerics or Paladins, the 2024 description of their Holy Symbols is now better, but the meaning is essentially the same as in 2014:
Holy Symbol. A holy symbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
In my opinion, the way Clerics or Paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus remains the same. The Sage Advice Compendium already explained this, and I believe it still holds true for 2024.
Neither clerics nor paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus
This seems to be your fundamental argument but the only way this would make sense is if the emblem is not part of the shield, the emblem is painted or bejewelled on to the shield, it is not a separate item to the shield itself at this point, you can't just remove the paint or jewels and place them on another shield without performing destructive work on the original shield... and paint probably would not transfer easily in this scenario anyway.
This isn't like two dice accessory hanging from a rear view mirror in a car, the emblem is physically made part of the shield and thus the resulting item in the case of an Emblem is the shield itself baring the emblem. The end result is that the shield itself does function as the spellcasting focus.
I would love for you to cite some rules text to support the stuff you're just asserting.
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If my Cleric emblazons their deity's holy symbol on a shield, can I still cast spells with somatic+material components, or spells with somatic (but no material) components? He's using sword and shield, and I am wondering about AC.
If your holy symbol is on your shield, you don't need a free hand to provide the material component. Since the material component isn't in your hand, you'd need a separate free hand for the somatic components.
No, the emblem on a shield counts as "in your hand" for the combined M and S rules. If you're meeting the M requirement, then you can meet the S component unless your hands are bound.
This is incorrect. That's not how it worked in 2014, but it's been made even more explicit in 2024. Holy symbols have a neat little table now that indicates how they're interacted with when used as a focus, and only the reliquary must be held "in your hand," and the emblem can't be held "in your hand." It's on your shield, but it doesn't turn your shield into a focus. The focus is not in your hand; it removes the need for the focus to be in your hand.
Where does it say that it removes the need?
The literal word-for-word from Material components is:
And all that Emblem says regarding its function for M components is:
Nothing about further altering the rules for a Focus, which as a corollary means the above rules remain in force for how M and S components interact when an Emblem is providing the M.
The rules for material components say that to use a focus, you must hold it in your hand "unless its description says otherwise." The descriptions for the emblem and amulet holy symbols do say otherwise, as indicated by the table I linked earlier.
I read the rules for M components, and there is no mention of an exception to the "your free hand that handles the M component can also handle the S component" portion. If you have a hand free for a spell's M component, that hand also qualifies for the S component. You always need a free hand, and for all practical purposes you are holding a shield which has effectively become the focus with an Emblem.
You didn't read all the rules then. I already quoted the bit that provides the exception (it looks like I actually inserted the wrong link, however. The correct one is here). You have to read the second paragraph, which is about what to do when you use a component pouch or spellcasting focus instead of providing the components specified in the spell's description, which is what the first paragraph is about.
I don't think the rules about spell components in 2024 have changed compared to 2014.
For Clerics or Paladins, the 2024 description of their Holy Symbols is now better, but the meaning is essentially the same as in 2014:
In my opinion, the way Clerics or Paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus remains the same. The Sage Advice Compendium already explained this, and I believe it still holds true for 2024.
On the contrary; they've changed materially (he he he), though perhaps unintentionally, as I'll address in a bit.
Neither clerics nor paladins use a shield as a spellcasting focus, though with that clarification out of the way, I agree that nothing about that has changed between 2014 and 2024. The Sage Advice entry was wrong before the 2024 revision, and it's no longer relevant after the 2024 revision. It invented from whole cloth the notion that a shield emblazoned with a holy symbol is a holy symbol, an idea found absolutely nowhere in the actual text. The 2024 text that makes this abundantly clear serves as an acknowledgment that Crawford just got it wrong in Sage Advice.
There's not actually any ambiguity at all here. There's only one valid conclusion if you let the text speak for itself, rather than presupposing a conclusion and working backward from there. And the ways in which the text has changed make it clear that it's 100% intentional. For comparison, here's the relevant bit of the 2014 rules:
Now, let's examine the first paragraph of the new 2024 rules:
So far, none of this has makes any reference to component pouches or spellcasting foci. This text is only relevant if you provide the loose components specifically indicated by the spell's description. That's already a change from the 2014 version, which seems to treat loose components, a pouch, and a focus as largely interchangeable. Let's continue and see if the changes produce anything more interesting:
Here we get our first mention of other options. If the components are free and not consumed, we don't need to provide loose components; we can use a component pouch or a focus instead. In those cases, we're no longer accessing loose components, so the first paragraph's text about the free hand doesn't work anymore. Hopefully, this new way to fulfill a material component has some text clarifying what to do with our hands in this case. Let's read on and see if that hope bears fruit.
Okay, so if we use a component pouch, we do still need a free hand. That makes sense, and it's good to know. However, if we use a spellcasting focus, we don't. We need a hand that's occupied by the focus, unless the focus's description says otherwise. This is indeed more or less equivalent to the 2014 text that says "you need a free hand to handle a focus," except that the "unless you're using an emblem or amulet holy symbol" exception wasn't even vaguely gestured to before and was instead found only if you happened to read the holy symbol's description carefully. Like I said, this exception was always there. But it's very nice to see the general material component rules explicitly note the possibility that some foci don't actually need to be in your hand. They could be around your neck or on your shield instead. This what I've already demonstrated earlier in this thread. If you just allow the text to do what it says it's doing, it's quite clear. But we're not quite done yet.
If you recall, at the beginning of this post, I mentioned that the rules had materially changed. What's changed is that, if you use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus, there's no text that says the hand you use for them (should you need one) can be the hand you use for somatic components. If you're holding a spellcasting focus, you need a separate free hand for the somatic components. This may well be an oversight. Clarifying that you don't always need a hand for a focus is obviously intentional, but omitting this allowance? Could easily go either way. I'm not invested in arguing for or against that intent, but the text is what it is. This change isn't really relevant to my thesis, but I do think it's interesting.
You’re wrong at the most fundamental premise. Given that the Sage Advice entries posted on Beyond are official rules clarifications, then by definition they cannot be wrong, if only in terms of describing the RAI. It says if you have an Emblem on a shield, holding that shield meets the requirements of a holy symbol focus for M components and consequently means that hand qualifies for S components. That’s it, end of story, and there is no reason to believe they made some subtle change to the wording specifically to change that without actually drawing attention to the change.
I disagree with this conclusion, but I agree with pretty much everything else that you've been saying in this thread.
The text says that "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any". In my opinion, the "them" in that statement refers to "Material Components" as a broad category, not to any specific tangible thing. The Component Pouch and the Spellcasting Focus are both explicitly used as a direct substitution for the individual particular materials that are used in the spell's casting -- all of these are considered to be the Material Component, which requires a free hand by general rule. Later on, there is a specific rule for certain Spellcasting Focus items that do not require this free hand.
This logic is actually backwards. It's the other way around.
First, you need a free hand for the S component. Pretty much full stop. That's because you actually have to perform gestures with your hand. Now, if the spell also has an M component, you can use the hand that you were using for your S component to satisfy your M component. But not the other way around. If for some reason you do not need a free hand for your M component, that does not also satisfy the S component -- you still actually have to perform gestures with your hand no matter what.
Technically this isn't quite right, so this isn't good enough to satisfy the requirement. The shield is not the focus. You cannot use your shield hand to perform gestures. The focus is the emblem, which does not require a free hand to use. Again, you have to start with the free hand that you will be using to perform gestures, not the other way around. A sword-and-board cleric does not have this free hand for the S component.
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The good news is that in 2024 a lot of this becomes moot since the new weapon juggling rules solve a lot of these overly restrictive issues that the 2014 sword-and-board cleric was supposed to be dealing with (which most people were ignoring). Now, this cleric can easily stow his weapon and perform the S component gestures and the M requirements to cast Sanctuary on his ally, then he can run up to an enemy, draw his weapon and attack that enemy. Same thing for a sword-and-board Paladin who wants to cast Divine Favor before attacking, and so on. The free hand requirement for spellcasting has now become mostly a flavor thing rather than an actual restriction.
It completely defeats the purpose of allowing emblems on shields if the shield doesn’t functionally become a focus. The SA above literally says that a Cleric with an Emblem shield meets both M and S components when a spell uses both with the hand holding the shield without any kind of weird juggling. Ergo, for all intents and purposes, the shield is treated as a focus. If the spell had S but no M you could not use that hand, but that’s the general rule. I don’t see how you can look at the SA and somehow still think Emblems create some Byzantine mess of hand interactions.
@SagaTympana I really appreciate your efforts to convince me, honestly, but for me, the reading is just simpler.
From the description of the Holy Symbol:
So yes, an Emblem on a shield is the Spell Casting Focus for a Cleric or Paladin.
Then, according to the Material (M) rules:
But this goes with the next addition; they are not separate rules, even though we have two paragraphs in the book:
If you hold the shield, you can use it instead of the material component; they are effectively the same. From the Glossary:
If this is the key for you, then the answer is here (I quoted it above):
Correct.
Incorrect. There is nothing in the book that suggests the shield is the focus. If you can find any actual rules text to support that idea, I'd be delighted to read it. But it's not at all problematic that the shield isn't a focus, but you're missing it because you're continuing to ignore the "unless its description says otherwise" clause. Ignoring half the section's text isn't an argument.
I'm sorry, I don't see anything relevant in this glossary entry.
How? The text very clearly states that you do not need to hold the focus when it's an emblem on a shield. There are zero problems caused by the shield not being a focus, unless you just ignore the rules.
That Sage Advice was written in context of an older version of the game and cannot be cited when discussing fundamentally different language. It's no longer relevant. And as I said, it was wrong even when it was relevant. The 2024 clarifications are the acknowledgment that it was wrong.
The blatant wholesale dismissal of plain black-and-white rules text is pretty baffling, to be honest, and I'm going to let the text speak for itself until someone actually tries to engage with it instead of ignoring it in favor of the conclusion they wanted to come to before reading it.
Thank you for making a case that actually engages with the text. It's refreshing. It's certainly a case, and this quirk is not one I'm particularly interested in debating. I don't find your opinion convincing, because specific tangible things had just been mentioned prior to the line we're talking about. But it's a valid opinion for sure, I can definitely see it.
It's difficult for me to progress in the discussion if you don't see the Emblem plus the shield are the Spellcasting Focus, because the book is telling you exactly that:
This seems to be your fundamental argument but the only way this would make sense is if the emblem is not part of the shield, the emblem is painted or bejewelled on to the shield, it is not a separate item to the shield itself at this point, you can't just remove the paint or jewels and place them on another shield without performing destructive work on the original shield... and paint probably would not transfer easily in this scenario anyway.
This isn't like two dice accessory hanging from a rear view mirror in a car, the emblem is physically made part of the shield and thus the resulting item in the case of an Emblem is the shield itself baring the emblem. The end result is that the shield itself does function as the spellcasting focus.
I would love for you to cite some rules text to support the stuff you're just asserting.