A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon."
The spell casting rules have been changed so that the point of origin is no longer referred to as the target of an area of effect spell.
Spellcasting: "Targets
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else."
From Area of Effect in the Glossary: "An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin."
So at least now we can avoid the arguments about what a spell targets :)
It's funny, I actually have mostly the opposite reaction to the changes. I think that a lot of the inconsistencies have been cleaned up when it comes to targeting.
That portion of the clear path rule is actually the same as it was in 2014:
(2014 rule):
A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover. If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
I found this change interesting:
2014 Fireball:
Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
2024 Fireball:
Each creature in a 20-foot-radius Sphere centered on that point makes a Dexterity saving throw, taking 8d6 Fire damage on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one.
I haven't read through all of the new spells yet, but my guess is that this sort of thing has been cleaned up in a vast majority of the places where it occurred in the 2014 spell descriptions -- potentially ALL of those places if they were careful enough about it.
Here was another change that I was happy to see:
2014 "Targeting Yourself":
Targeting Yourself
If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you. If you are in the area of effect of a spell you cast, you can target yourself.
2024 "Targeting Yourself":
Targeting Yourself. If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself unless the creature must be Hostile or specifically a creature other than you.
As for the definition for a Target that is listed in the Glossary that has been mentioned in the Original Post of this thread, let's take a closer look:
Target
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
First of all, keep in mind that this is the general concept of a Target, which includes things that you aim at with a weapon when making a non-magical weapon attack. The portion that mentions a creature that is forced to make a saving throw by an effect -- that could be just talking about effects that were directly aimed at the creature, not even necessarily spell effects or even magical effects. The last portion sort of confirms this trend, that when it comes to spell effects, creatures that are targeted refers to creatures that were selected to receive the effects -- a spell such as Slow might be a decent example of this.
The other rule that you mentioned was this one:
Targets
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.
This is the same as how it was before, but instead of specifying that one of the things that can be targeted is a point of origin, it leaves it more open ended in case there is something that doesn't fall into any of those categories. For example, targeting a spot on a floor or a wall or a body of water would not fall under any of these categories since the game does not consider large structures like this to be "objects".
Right within the section that talks about Targets, there is this subsection within that section:
Areas of Effect. Some spells, such as Thunderwave, cover an area called an area of effect, which is defined in the rules glossary. The area determines what the spell targets. The description of a spell specifies whether it has an area of effect, which is typically one of these shapes: Cone, Cube, Cylinder, Emanation, Line, or Sphere.
Note that this does NOT say that this type of spell "targets" an area, it says that it "covers" the area. That's important. It also says that the area determines what the spell targets . . .
So, for each area, what does the spell target? To understand what this means, you now have to dig into each of the six tagged rules in the rules Glossary. For example:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin.
So, why all of this discussion about a point of origin? Why do shapes have a point of origin at all? Why don't you just target the entire shape with your spell and the entire shape just pops into existence?
Answer: Because that's not how AoE spells work, and that's not what you are targeting with your spell. You target the point of origin when you cast the spell by basically "aiming" your spell at that location (and you must have a clear path to that location). You position the point of origin by targeting your spell somewhere specific.
You cast the spell (from your own location) and the effect "erupts" into existence AT the spell's target. This is true for AoE spells and non-AoE spells. The spell travels "from" you "to" the target along a clear path before the magical effect's energy defined by the spell description is released. You are targeting a place for that energy to be released.
To continue, let's look at the rule for a sphere:
A Sphere is an area of effect that extends in straight lines from a point of origin outward in all directions. The effect that creates a Sphere specifies the distance it extends as the radius of the Sphere.
A Sphere’s point of origin is included in the Sphere’s area of effect.
So, the previous rule stated that the area determines what the spell targets. So, what does the rule for a sphere determine about what a sphere AoE targets?
Answer: The center of the sphere.
What does a cube determine about what a cube AoE targets?
A Cube is an area of effect that extends in straight lines from a point of origin located anywhere on a face of the Cube. The effect that creates a Cube specifies its size, which is the length of each side.
A Cube’s point of origin isn’t included in the area of effect unless its creator decides otherwise.
Answer: Someplace that is located anywhere on a face of the Cube.
Similarly, every other rule for each shape determines what the spell targets by describing the location of the point of origin for that shape.
Now, whether or not the game might occasionally use the term "Target" with a second connotation that's just a catch-all term for "creature or object or something else", that's a separate discussion. But such usage of the term "Target" should not be confused with the mechanically important usage of the term that describes the "target of a spell". The game is written and designed in such a way that the target of a spell refers to the place or places at which you are aiming your spell when you cast it. For all AoE spells, the target of the spell is the point of origin of the AoE.
Creatures that are affected by an AoE are not the targets of the spell. In some cases, they might actually be targeted by the effect, but that's different, and that's pretty uncommon for a spell effect to be written that way in its description. I vaguely recall seeing one or two examples of that. This design is confirmed by how spells such as the Fireball spell have been rewritten.
Basically, a lot of the details that I've called out in the past as being "erroneous" or "inconsistent" have been changed and brought more in line with what I've been saying all along.
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
This part confirms that anything forced to make a saving throw by a spell is a target of that spell. The selected part only would apply to those spells that let the caster choose their targets, such as Slow.
As for the definition for a Target that is listed in the Glossary that has been mentioned in the Original Post of this thread, let's take a closer look:
Target
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
First of all, keep in mind that this is the general concept of a Target, which includes things that you aim at with a weapon when making a non-magical weapon attack. The portion that mentions a creature that is forced to make a saving throw by an effect -- that could be just talking about effects that were directly aimed at the creature, not even necessarily spell effects or even magical effects. The last portion sort of confirms this trend, that when it comes to spell effects, creatures that are targeted refers to creatures that were selected to receive the effects -- a spell such as Slow might be a decent example of this.
"Not even necessarily spell effects or even magical effects" doesn't mean "it excludes them". That section means that ANYTHING that forces a creature to make a saving throw targets it, whether it's a spell or not.
As for "the last portion sort of confirms this trend" is also wrong. It doesn't confirm anything. The key word there is that little "OR". That means that there are different ways to target a creature or an object, and these ways are attacking it, forcing it to make a saving throw, OR selecting it to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
It's very simple, really. If it forces a creature to make a saving throw it targets it. Does Fireball force creatures to make a saving throw? Yes, so it targets them.
I think you're completely misinterpreting that "The area determines what the spell targets." It simply means that the targets are determined by the area itself. Which creatures are targeted by a cone? The ones that are inside the area of the cone. This doesn't say "The targets of the spells are determined by the individual definition of each area in the book."
If WotC meant what you say, then they chose one of the worst ways of saying it. In the definition of Target they could have simply said "A creature or object targeted by an attack roll, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon." Why would they bother including the saving throw part? It would be redundant and unnecessary. They included it because sometimes targets aren't being attacked nor are they selected, but they're still targets.
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
B)
Areas of Effect. Some spells, such as Thunderwave, cover an area called an area of effect, which is defined in the rules glossary. The area determines what the spell targets. The description of a spell specifies whether it has an area of effect, which is typically one of these shapes: Cone, Cube, Cylinder, Emanation, Line, or Sphere.
C) The description of the specific spell, Thunderwave:
You unleash a wave of thunderous energy. Each creature in a 15-foot Cube originating from you makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d8 Thunder damage and is pushed 10 feet away from you. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage only.
D) Because the creatures mentioned in Thunderwave are forced to make a saving throw, all they are targets of the spell.
Or more simply: the word "target" appears twice in the definition of Saving Throw so you can go to target and connect both terms.
Saving Throw
A saving throw—also called a save—represents an attempt to avoid or resist a threat. You normally make a saving throw only when a rule requires you to do so, but you can decide to fail the save without rolling. The result of a save is detailed in the effect that allowed it. If a target is forced to make a save and lacks the ability score used by it, the target automatically fails. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
This part confirms that anything forced to make a saving throw by a spell is a target of that spell. The selected part only would apply to those spells that let the caster choose their targets, such as Slow.
First of all, that's not what it says. The rule is talking about effects, not spells.
It's unfortunate that it was worded this broadly in this one location within the Glossary of the book. It is inconsistent with how the rest of the game is designed. When a creature is forced to make a saving throw by an effect, it really should only be considered to be a target if that effect was actually targeting that creature.
Wording it this way is now going to force us to recognize the distinction between the target of a spell and the target of the effect that the spell creates, and that's going to go over a lot of people's heads and will cause some unnecessary confusion within some spell descriptions. Most of the time, these concepts align. The main exception is for AoE spells.
It's very simple, really. If it forces a creature to make a saving throw it targets it. Does Fireball force creatures to make a saving throw? Yes, so it targets them.
Incorrect. As I posted previously, the wording of the Fireball spell has changed in 2024 -- for this exact reason. It is now crystal clear that the Fireball spell targets "a point you choose within range" and the spell description then goes on to explain how the creatures within the area are affected by the effect which was created in that area by the spell. This brings the Fireball spell description in line with the 90 or so other AoE spells from the PHB which were already written correctly back in 2014.
I think you're completely misinterpreting that "The area determines what the spell targets." It simply means that the targets are determined by the area itself. Which creatures are targeted by a cone? The ones that are inside the area of the cone. This doesn't say "The targets of the spells are determined by the individual definition of each area in the book."
You can think this, but you'd be wrong.
The Areas of Effect subsection explains that some spells have this property -- that they cover an area (they do NOT target an area, they cover an area) -- and the purpose of this subsection is to create a rule that determines what these spells target when they are cast (since this subsection is located with the Spells --> Casting Spells --> Effects --> Targets section of the rules).
The way that this subsection is written online is that "the area determines what the spell targets" and the terms "Area of Effect", "Cone", "Cube", "Cylinder", "Emanation", "Line" and "Sphere" are all written as brown hyperlinks to another rule in the book. The way that this works in the 2024 rules is that these rules are essentially embedded within the rule that you are currently reading, so you have to click into each of those other rules to get the full text of the current rule. It's basically directly referring to and dependent on the content of another rule to finish its thought.
So, when it says that the area determines what the spell targets, that's the general rule. You then have to click into each type of area to see what they say about what is being targeted, because they each have their own specific rule which specifies exactly what is targeted for that type of area.
If the rule had actually meant something like "The spell targets the creatures that are within the area" then it would have said that. The phrase "the area determines what the spell targets" means something else entirely.
Another interpretation might be that "the spell description determines what these (AoE) spells target". But that's not what the rule actually says. The area determines it, not the spell description. Even if we rely on the spell description to tell us what is targeted, the spell descriptions are now more careful than ever to NOT describe affected creatures as targets of the spell. See the Fireball spell, which has been changed for 2024.
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I think that it would be helpful to review what is actually happening when a spell is cast so that the terminology involved is less confusing.
To paraphrase:
A spellcaster casts a spell AT his location by expending any resources that are necessary to cast it (action economy, spell components, etc.), which creates an instance of the spell. The spell's energy is released FROM the spellcaster TO the target of the spell (within Range, along a clear path), where the spell's effect erupts into existence.
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For an Area of Effect:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts.
This is the starting point for that spell effect. This is the place that needs to be targeted by the spell in order for the spell's effect to appear into existence at the location and orientation that you want it to appear. Whether you are targeting a creature directly or you are creating an area of effect, the spell's effect erupts into existence wherever you tell it to -- by aiming your spell at it when you target it.
For a spell that directly targets a creature, like Sacred Flame, the concepts overlap. You target that creature with your spell, causing the spell effect to erupt in such a way that it affects that creature. I suppose now in 2024 you could say that that spell effect "targets" the creature also. In my opinion, using the term "target" in that way will just add confusion, since when a spell description uses the word "target", that's almost never how it's used, but it's fine. The point is, in the case of Sacred Flame, that effect targets that creature because the spell targets that creature.
The same is not true for an AoE spell. For a spell such as the 2024 Fireball spell, the spell targets "a point you choose within range". Since it's clear from the spell description that the spell is creating a spherical area of effect, you now look at the rule for a Sphere to determine what this "point" is targeting. It targets the origin point of the sphere which is the center of the sphere. This causes an effect to be created that "covers" a spherical area. The effect "erupts" from the point of origin (because that's where you aimed your spell) and more or less instantaneously expands to fill the area. None of that has anything to do with targeting a creature with the spell. The spell description goes on to describe how the creatures within this area are affected by the spell effect that now exists in that area.
To emphasize that this is how the creators designed this mechanic, here is the small list of AoE spells from the PHB which were using the term incorrectly in 2014: Arms of Hadar, Fireball, Circle of Death, Prismatic Spray
I don't currently have access to the new Arms of Hadar. The new Fireball spell has already been posted above.
2014 Circle of Death:
A sphere of negative energy ripples out in a 60-foot-radius sphere from a point within range. Each creature in that area must make a Constitution saving throw. A target takes 8d6 necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
2024 Circle of Death:
Negative energy ripples out in a 60-foot-radius Sphere from a point you choose within range. Each creature in that area makes a Constitution saving throw, taking 8d8 Necrotic damage on a failed save or half as much damage on a successful one.
Unfortunately, this same type of change has not been made to the Prismatic Spray spell, so there is still one that has slipped through the cracks. But far fewer spells are using the term "target" in their spell descriptions to describe affected creatures now in 2024 than in 2014.
As an interesting note, the Symbol spell is a special case. In that spell, the spell description goes out of its way to explicitly state that "Each creature in the Sphere when the glyph activates is targeted by its effect, as is a creature that enters the Sphere for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there. A creature is targeted only once per turn." It was written that way because by default this is not how AoE effects work. So, this creates a specific exception to the general rules for AoE spells.
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Anyway, I think that a ton of work has gone into cleaning up a lot of the inconsistencies about this issue that existed in 2014, but obviously they didn't quite 100% get there as evidenced by the existence of this thread. But what I've described here is how the spell casting mechanic actually works. If people want to come up with some other interpretation of the entire spellcasting mechanic, then go for it, I guess. Why not.
I keep forgetting to mention the biggest slam dunk reason why the mechanic MUST work in the way that I'm describing -- the clear path rule:
A Clear Path to the Target. To target something with a spell, a caster must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind Total Cover.
If a goblin is hiding behind a large boulder in an otherwise open field such that he currently has total cover with respect to my position, I should be able to damage that goblin with a Fireball spell. BUT, if that goblin is considered to be a target of the spell, then it becomes immune to my fireball because it has total cover from me.
Obviously, we know that it doesn't work like that. That's because I actually target a different location with the spell. A location that does not have total cover from me, and which does not have interrupted straight lines between the Fireball's point of origin (the target of the spell) and the goblin's location.
First of all, that's not what it says. The rule is talking about effects, not spells.
...
Anyway, I think that a ton of work has gone into cleaning up a lot of the inconsistencies about this issue that existed in 2014, but obviously they didn't quite 100% get there as evidenced by the existence of this thread. But what I've described here is how the spell casting mechanic actually works. If people want to come up with some other interpretation of the entire spellcasting mechanic, then go for it, I guess. Why not.
Incorrect. Spells have effects. If a creature is forced to make a saving throw as part of the effect of a spell, it is a target of the spell.
There's no real distinction between spells and effects in the sense you're describing. If the effect of a spell has targets, the spell has targets, that's all there really is to it.
There's no real distinction between spells and effects in the sense you're describing. If the effect of a spell has targets, the spell has targets, that's all there really is to it.
Exactly. Spells are a subset of the entire class of effects. If my monk fires off an elemental burst, the critters in that ball are targets of something, and it's not a spell.
The glossary definition of target is pretty clear as to what a target is, and points in space are not among them.
All this arguing over what a target is brings me back to the early days of CCGs.
So if a target is behind a wall from my vantage point, and I cast Fireball just past the wall such that they are included in the area and there is an unobstructed line to the point of origin of the aoe. Are they affected or are they not affected?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So if a target is behind a wall from my vantage point, and I cast Fireball just past the wall such that they are included in the area and there is an unobstructed line to the point of origin of the aoe. Are they affected or are they not affected?
They're affected:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin. If all straight lines extending from the point of origin to a location in the area of effect are blocked, that location isn’t included in the area of effect. To block a line, an obstruction must provide Total Cover. See also “Cover.”
Exactly. Total Cover's effectiveness is based on where the attack/effect is coming from, not necessarily a straight line between the caster and the target, based on the rule listed above.
First of all, that's not what it says. The rule is talking about effects, not spells.
...
Anyway, I think that a ton of work has gone into cleaning up a lot of the inconsistencies about this issue that existed in 2014, but obviously they didn't quite 100% get there as evidenced by the existence of this thread. But what I've described here is how the spell casting mechanic actually works. If people want to come up with some other interpretation of the entire spellcasting mechanic, then go for it, I guess. Why not.
Incorrect. Spells have effects. If a creature is forced to make a saving throw as part of the effect of a spell, it is a target of the spell.
You should quote something that says what you are saying if you think you have a point.
Target
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
The word "spell" does not appear in the underlined section of this rule. That portion of the rule is talking about effects. Spell descriptions "have" effects. When you cast a spell, it creates a spell effect.
But if you insist on targeting your goblins with your Fireball spells, you are going to have a lot of trouble damaging that one hiding behind the boulder since that is an illegal target according to the clear path rule.
There's no real distinction between spells and effects in the sense you're describing. If the effect of a spell has targets, the spell has targets, that's all there really is to it.
This distinction has always existed, and it is becoming more consistently described as such in the 2024 rules. Just as one example, the Concentration rules have been updated to mostly talk about what happens to effects instead of spells.
Another example of the distinction is made clear in the Ready Action:
When you Ready a spell, you cast it as normal (expending any resources used to cast it) but hold its energy, which you release with your Reaction when the trigger occurs. To be readied, a spell must have a casting time of an action, and holding on to the spell’s magic requires Concentration, which you can maintain up to the start of your next turn. If your Concentration is broken, the spell dissipates without taking effect.
The glossary definition of target is pretty clear as to what a target is, and points in space are not among them.
and yet . . .
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else."
I would say that a point in space is clearly among the category of "something else" since it certainly is not a creature or an object.
So if a target is behind a wall from my vantage point, and I cast Fireball just past the wall such that they are included in the area and there is an unobstructed line to the point of origin of the aoe. Are they affected or are they not affected?
They're affected:
An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin. If all straight lines extending from the point of origin to a location in the area of effect are blocked, that location isn’t included in the area of effect. To block a line, an obstruction must provide Total Cover. See also “Cover.”
Exactly. Total Cover's effectiveness is based on where the attack/effect is coming from, not necessarily a straight line between the caster and the target, based on the rule listed above.
You've both missed the point. The clear path rule doesn't care where the effect is coming from. It says this:
A Clear Path to the Target. To target something with a spell, a caster must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind Total Cover.
The requirement to target something with a spell is that the spellcaster must have a clear path to the target. That is crystal clear.
If the goblin has full cover behind the boulder, by rule, you CANNOT target that goblin with ANY spell. The only way to harm that goblin with a spell is to target a nearby point in space in order to create an AoE that will affect that goblin. In doing so, the goblin CANNOT be considered to be a target of this AoE spell, by rule.
Once again, notice that virtually ALL of the AoE spells in the PHB are written in such a way that they avoid calling an affected creature a "target". This is on purpose. Even the Fireball spell description that everyone used to hang their hat on in this discussion has been changed to reflect the true design. Even if we can now technically call an affected creature a "target" of the effect in 2024, that still doesn't make it a target of the spell. Spell descriptions typically only specify what is the target of the spell (the Symbol spell being a rare exception). That's why the word is avoided in all of those spell descriptions.
Yes, removing the word "targets" from the description of Fireball was very much on purpose. AoE effects are meant to target everyone inside, so writing "targets" in the description is completely redundant and unnecessary. WotC is removing this kind of language in the new book. Second, the old Fireball saying "targets" was extremely confusing because not all AoE spells did. So you'd think "Wait, so Fireball targets but Cone of Cold doesn't?" So instead of adding the word "targets" to EVERY SINGLE AoE spell in the game, they simply removed it and instead included it in the definition of "Target". You force someone to make a saving throw, you target it; end of story. No need to make spell descriptions longer than necessary.
I don't get this whole "spells are not effects". I think it's pointless to even discuss it, and it's also wrong. The portion of the sentence talking about saving throws doesn't say the word "spells"? Neither does the "attack roll" one. So if I cast Fire Bolt at someone, am I not targeting them? At this point you're just choosing to read the rules the way you want them to work. If you're the DM at your table, then by all means rule it like that. If you're a player then you might convince your DM to rule it like that. But I'm done with this conversation. It's like talking to a wall at this point. But have fun arguing about this with others.
So if a target is behind a wall from my vantage point, and I cast Fireball just past the wall such that they are included in the area and there is an unobstructed line to the point of origin of the aoe. Are they affected or are they not affected?
They are affected since there is a clear line from the point of origin to the target.
However, the 2024 version of fireball seems to have removed the text about expanding around corners. This means that total cover from the point of origin of a fireball will prevent creatures within 20' of it from being affected even if they are just around a corner from the point of origin.
No more fireballing folks hiding behind a corner (or a table top) or anything else that can provide total cover without careful placement of the point of origin.
I don't get this whole "spells are not effects". I think it's pointless to even discuss it, and it's also wrong. The portion of the sentence talking about saving throws doesn't say the word "spells"? Neither does the "attack roll" one. So if I cast Fire Bolt at someone, am I not targeting them? At this point you're just choosing to read the rules the way you want them to work. If you're the DM at your table, then by all means rule it like that. If you're a player then you might convince your DM to rule it like that. But I'm done with this conversation. It's like talking to a wall at this point. But have fun arguing about this with others.
This argument makes no sense at all. The attack roll portion of the rule is more broadly encompassing. It includes anything that makes an attack roll, not just effects. It's meant to include such things as mundane weapon attacks.
Perhaps someone will find an exception, but after a brief scan through the new spells, I found exactly zero AoE spells which cause an attack roll to be made against a creature. This is by design.
Of course the Fire Bolt spell targets a creature. It says so right there in its spell description:
You hurl a mote of fire at a creature or an object within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 1d10 Fire damage . . .
But Fire Bolt is NOT an AoE spell. Instead, it's a spell that targets a creature. There are a lot of spells that are designed like that.
Remember:
Targets
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.
Spells such as Fire Bolt are in the category of spells that targets creatures. You aim your spell at a creature and hurl a mote of fire at it. Mechanically, you make a ranged spell attack (by making an attack roll) against that creature, which is the target of the spell.
AoE spells, on the other hand, are in the category of spells which target "something else". That something else is defined by the specific rule that governs that specific area:
Areas of Effect. Some spells, such as Thunderwave, cover an area called an area of effect, which is defined in the rules glossary. The area determines what the spell targets. The description of a spell specifies whether it has an area of effect . . .
So, the Targets section of the spellcasting rules (quoted above) states that the spell's description determines which of the three categories is targeted. Within this Targets section, there are two types of spells that are specifically called out as having their own rules for what exactly is targeted. Otherwise, the spell description will tell us directly. Those two types of spells are ones in which you might target yourself, and spells which create Areas of Effect.
For spells which create Areas of Effect, the rule states that the spell description will tell us if the spell has an area of effect . . . if it does, the area determines what the spell targets. The spell targets the point of origin, and the effect that is created spreads outwards from there in the manner defined for each type of area.
Yes, removing the word "targets" from the description of Fireball was very much on purpose. AoE effects are meant to target everyone inside, so writing "targets" in the description is completely redundant and unnecessary. WotC is removing this kind of language in the new book. Second, the old Fireball saying "targets" was extremely confusing because not all AoE spells did. So you'd think "Wait, so Fireball targets but Cone of Cold doesn't?" So instead of adding the word "targets" to EVERY SINGLE AoE spell in the game, they simply removed it and instead included it in the definition of "Target". You force someone to make a saving throw, you target it; end of story. No need to make spell descriptions longer than necessary.
This makes even less sense. AoE spells are meant to target creatures, so they decided to remove all mentions of the term "target" from all of those spells? Say, what now? Then why is that term consistently used for dozens of other spells that are not AoE spells, including those which force the creature to make saving throws?
Sacred Flame, 2024:
Flame-like radiance descends on a creature that you can see within range. The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d8 Radiant damage . . .
Vicious Mockery, 2024:
You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at one creature you can see or hear within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d6 Psychic damage . . .
Bane, 2024:
Up to three creatures of your choice that you can see within range must each make a Charisma saving throw. Whenever a target that fails this save makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends, the target must subtract 1d4 from the attack roll or save.
. . . And so on.
Answer: Because these spells (not just the spell effects) are actually targeting these creatures. The creature is targeted by the spell, which creates an effect that affects that creature.
In contrast, for AoE spells, the spell targets a location which becomes the point of origin for the spell effect which fills a defined space. This effect will affect some unknown creatures if those creatures happen to interact with this effect.
Remember: The spellcaster is making the targeting decisions when the spell is cast:
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic.
A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot-radius, 40-foot-high Cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, Dim Light fills the Cylinder, and you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet.
When the Cylinder appears, each creature in it makes a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d10 Radiant damage . . . A creature also makes this save when the spell’s area moves into its space and when it enters the spell’s area or ends its turn there . . .
So the way that this spell is designed, you might position this hazard onto an empty space where there are no creatures. As an example, perhaps 5 or 6 rounds later a creature might come along and stumble into this hazard.
How in the world was the spellcaster supposed to know that this particular creature would interact with this spell effect at some point in the future? The spell has already been cast long ago and the targeting decisions have already been made. It makes absolutely no sense for this creature to be considered to be a target of the spell.
Instead, the target of the spell is the location of the point of origin of the cylinder so that the cylinder can be properly placed onto the battlefield in the location that the spellcaster intends it to be. That's how AoE spells work.
Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: 1 mile Components: V, S, M (a focus worth 100+ GP, either a jeweled horn for hearing or a glass eye for seeing) Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You create an Invisible sensor "within range" in a location familiar to you (a place you have visited or seen before) or in an obvious location that is unfamiliar to you (such as behind a door, around a corner, or in a grove of trees). The intangible, invulnerable sensor remains in place for the duration.
VS
Insect Plague
Level 5 Conjuration (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer)
Casting Time: Action Range: 300 feet Components: V, S, M (a locust) Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
The thing is, Clairvoyance has the same wording as many of the spells in question, insect plague, stinking cloud etc, "a point in range" then goes on to say like a known location, a place you can see or even behind a door, clearly you dont need an unobstructed path to the "point".
So unless there is a separate rule that says if a spell can cause a saving throw or attack roll it needs an unobstructed path as a direct override to the "point in range" , I don't see why these spells wouldn't all act like clairvoyance.
Since Clairvoyance tells you can target areas that you cannot see, it overrides the general spell targeting rules.
2024 Rules define target:
Glossary: "Target
A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon."
The spell casting rules have been changed so that the point of origin is no longer referred to as the target of an area of effect spell.
Spellcasting: "Targets
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else."
From Area of Effect in the Glossary: "An area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the effect’s energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how to position its point of origin."
So at least now we can avoid the arguments about what a spell targets :)
Yeah, it's nice! I love that "or something else".
We have also a clear rule about a target being behind Total Cover.
It's funny, I actually have mostly the opposite reaction to the changes. I think that a lot of the inconsistencies have been cleaned up when it comes to targeting.
That portion of the clear path rule is actually the same as it was in 2014:
(2014 rule):
I found this change interesting:
2014 Fireball:
2024 Fireball:
I haven't read through all of the new spells yet, but my guess is that this sort of thing has been cleaned up in a vast majority of the places where it occurred in the 2014 spell descriptions -- potentially ALL of those places if they were careful enough about it.
Here was another change that I was happy to see:
2014 "Targeting Yourself":
2024 "Targeting Yourself":
As for the definition for a Target that is listed in the Glossary that has been mentioned in the Original Post of this thread, let's take a closer look:
First of all, keep in mind that this is the general concept of a Target, which includes things that you aim at with a weapon when making a non-magical weapon attack. The portion that mentions a creature that is forced to make a saving throw by an effect -- that could be just talking about effects that were directly aimed at the creature, not even necessarily spell effects or even magical effects. The last portion sort of confirms this trend, that when it comes to spell effects, creatures that are targeted refers to creatures that were selected to receive the effects -- a spell such as Slow might be a decent example of this.
The other rule that you mentioned was this one:
This is the same as how it was before, but instead of specifying that one of the things that can be targeted is a point of origin, it leaves it more open ended in case there is something that doesn't fall into any of those categories. For example, targeting a spot on a floor or a wall or a body of water would not fall under any of these categories since the game does not consider large structures like this to be "objects".
Right within the section that talks about Targets, there is this subsection within that section:
Note that this does NOT say that this type of spell "targets" an area, it says that it "covers" the area. That's important. It also says that the area determines what the spell targets . . .
So, for each area, what does the spell target? To understand what this means, you now have to dig into each of the six tagged rules in the rules Glossary. For example:
So, why all of this discussion about a point of origin? Why do shapes have a point of origin at all? Why don't you just target the entire shape with your spell and the entire shape just pops into existence?
Answer: Because that's not how AoE spells work, and that's not what you are targeting with your spell. You target the point of origin when you cast the spell by basically "aiming" your spell at that location (and you must have a clear path to that location). You position the point of origin by targeting your spell somewhere specific.
You cast the spell (from your own location) and the effect "erupts" into existence AT the spell's target. This is true for AoE spells and non-AoE spells. The spell travels "from" you "to" the target along a clear path before the magical effect's energy defined by the spell description is released. You are targeting a place for that energy to be released.
To continue, let's look at the rule for a sphere:
So, the previous rule stated that the area determines what the spell targets. So, what does the rule for a sphere determine about what a sphere AoE targets?
Answer: The center of the sphere.
What does a cube determine about what a cube AoE targets?
Answer: Someplace that is located anywhere on a face of the Cube.
Similarly, every other rule for each shape determines what the spell targets by describing the location of the point of origin for that shape.
Now, whether or not the game might occasionally use the term "Target" with a second connotation that's just a catch-all term for "creature or object or something else", that's a separate discussion. But such usage of the term "Target" should not be confused with the mechanically important usage of the term that describes the "target of a spell". The game is written and designed in such a way that the target of a spell refers to the place or places at which you are aiming your spell when you cast it. For all AoE spells, the target of the spell is the point of origin of the AoE.
Creatures that are affected by an AoE are not the targets of the spell. In some cases, they might actually be targeted by the effect, but that's different, and that's pretty uncommon for a spell effect to be written that way in its description. I vaguely recall seeing one or two examples of that. This design is confirmed by how spells such as the Fireball spell have been rewritten.
Basically, a lot of the details that I've called out in the past as being "erroneous" or "inconsistent" have been changed and brought more in line with what I've been saying all along.
Nah.
This part confirms that anything forced to make a saving throw by a spell is a target of that spell. The selected part only would apply to those spells that let the caster choose their targets, such as Slow.
"Not even necessarily spell effects or even magical effects" doesn't mean "it excludes them". That section means that ANYTHING that forces a creature to make a saving throw targets it, whether it's a spell or not.
As for "the last portion sort of confirms this trend" is also wrong. It doesn't confirm anything. The key word there is that little "OR". That means that there are different ways to target a creature or an object, and these ways are attacking it, forcing it to make a saving throw, OR selecting it to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon.
It's very simple, really. If it forces a creature to make a saving throw it targets it. Does Fireball force creatures to make a saving throw? Yes, so it targets them.
I think you're completely misinterpreting that "The area determines what the spell targets." It simply means that the targets are determined by the area itself. Which creatures are targeted by a cone? The ones that are inside the area of the cone. This doesn't say "The targets of the spells are determined by the individual definition of each area in the book."
If WotC meant what you say, then they chose one of the worst ways of saying it. In the definition of Target they could have simply said "A creature or object targeted by an attack roll, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon." Why would they bother including the saving throw part? It would be redundant and unnecessary. They included it because sometimes targets aren't being attacked nor are they selected, but they're still targets.
This is the train to take in 2024.
A)
B)
C) The description of the specific spell, Thunderwave:
D) Because the creatures mentioned in Thunderwave are forced to make a saving throw, all they are targets of the spell.
Or more simply: the word "target" appears twice in the definition of Saving Throw so you can go to target and connect both terms.
First of all, that's not what it says. The rule is talking about effects, not spells.
It's unfortunate that it was worded this broadly in this one location within the Glossary of the book. It is inconsistent with how the rest of the game is designed. When a creature is forced to make a saving throw by an effect, it really should only be considered to be a target if that effect was actually targeting that creature.
Wording it this way is now going to force us to recognize the distinction between the target of a spell and the target of the effect that the spell creates, and that's going to go over a lot of people's heads and will cause some unnecessary confusion within some spell descriptions. Most of the time, these concepts align. The main exception is for AoE spells.
Incorrect. As I posted previously, the wording of the Fireball spell has changed in 2024 -- for this exact reason. It is now crystal clear that the Fireball spell targets "a point you choose within range" and the spell description then goes on to explain how the creatures within the area are affected by the effect which was created in that area by the spell. This brings the Fireball spell description in line with the 90 or so other AoE spells from the PHB which were already written correctly back in 2014.
You can think this, but you'd be wrong.
The Areas of Effect subsection explains that some spells have this property -- that they cover an area (they do NOT target an area, they cover an area) -- and the purpose of this subsection is to create a rule that determines what these spells target when they are cast (since this subsection is located with the Spells --> Casting Spells --> Effects --> Targets section of the rules).
The way that this subsection is written online is that "the area determines what the spell targets" and the terms "Area of Effect", "Cone", "Cube", "Cylinder", "Emanation", "Line" and "Sphere" are all written as brown hyperlinks to another rule in the book. The way that this works in the 2024 rules is that these rules are essentially embedded within the rule that you are currently reading, so you have to click into each of those other rules to get the full text of the current rule. It's basically directly referring to and dependent on the content of another rule to finish its thought.
So, when it says that the area determines what the spell targets, that's the general rule. You then have to click into each type of area to see what they say about what is being targeted, because they each have their own specific rule which specifies exactly what is targeted for that type of area.
If the rule had actually meant something like "The spell targets the creatures that are within the area" then it would have said that. The phrase "the area determines what the spell targets" means something else entirely.
Another interpretation might be that "the spell description determines what these (AoE) spells target". But that's not what the rule actually says. The area determines it, not the spell description. Even if we rely on the spell description to tell us what is targeted, the spell descriptions are now more careful than ever to NOT describe affected creatures as targets of the spell. See the Fireball spell, which has been changed for 2024.
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I think that it would be helpful to review what is actually happening when a spell is cast so that the terminology involved is less confusing.
To paraphrase:
A spellcaster casts a spell AT his location by expending any resources that are necessary to cast it (action economy, spell components, etc.), which creates an instance of the spell. The spell's energy is released FROM the spellcaster TO the target of the spell (within Range, along a clear path), where the spell's effect erupts into existence.
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For an Area of Effect:
This is the starting point for that spell effect. This is the place that needs to be targeted by the spell in order for the spell's effect to appear into existence at the location and orientation that you want it to appear. Whether you are targeting a creature directly or you are creating an area of effect, the spell's effect erupts into existence wherever you tell it to -- by aiming your spell at it when you target it.
For a spell that directly targets a creature, like Sacred Flame, the concepts overlap. You target that creature with your spell, causing the spell effect to erupt in such a way that it affects that creature. I suppose now in 2024 you could say that that spell effect "targets" the creature also. In my opinion, using the term "target" in that way will just add confusion, since when a spell description uses the word "target", that's almost never how it's used, but it's fine. The point is, in the case of Sacred Flame, that effect targets that creature because the spell targets that creature.
The same is not true for an AoE spell. For a spell such as the 2024 Fireball spell, the spell targets "a point you choose within range". Since it's clear from the spell description that the spell is creating a spherical area of effect, you now look at the rule for a Sphere to determine what this "point" is targeting. It targets the origin point of the sphere which is the center of the sphere. This causes an effect to be created that "covers" a spherical area. The effect "erupts" from the point of origin (because that's where you aimed your spell) and more or less instantaneously expands to fill the area. None of that has anything to do with targeting a creature with the spell. The spell description goes on to describe how the creatures within this area are affected by the spell effect that now exists in that area.
To emphasize that this is how the creators designed this mechanic, here is the small list of AoE spells from the PHB which were using the term incorrectly in 2014: Arms of Hadar, Fireball, Circle of Death, Prismatic Spray
I don't currently have access to the new Arms of Hadar. The new Fireball spell has already been posted above.
2014 Circle of Death:
2024 Circle of Death:
Unfortunately, this same type of change has not been made to the Prismatic Spray spell, so there is still one that has slipped through the cracks. But far fewer spells are using the term "target" in their spell descriptions to describe affected creatures now in 2024 than in 2014.
As an interesting note, the Symbol spell is a special case. In that spell, the spell description goes out of its way to explicitly state that "Each creature in the Sphere when the glyph activates is targeted by its effect, as is a creature that enters the Sphere for the first time on a turn or ends its turn there. A creature is targeted only once per turn." It was written that way because by default this is not how AoE effects work. So, this creates a specific exception to the general rules for AoE spells.
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Anyway, I think that a ton of work has gone into cleaning up a lot of the inconsistencies about this issue that existed in 2014, but obviously they didn't quite 100% get there as evidenced by the existence of this thread. But what I've described here is how the spell casting mechanic actually works. If people want to come up with some other interpretation of the entire spellcasting mechanic, then go for it, I guess. Why not.
I keep forgetting to mention the biggest slam dunk reason why the mechanic MUST work in the way that I'm describing -- the clear path rule:
If a goblin is hiding behind a large boulder in an otherwise open field such that he currently has total cover with respect to my position, I should be able to damage that goblin with a Fireball spell. BUT, if that goblin is considered to be a target of the spell, then it becomes immune to my fireball because it has total cover from me.
Obviously, we know that it doesn't work like that. That's because I actually target a different location with the spell. A location that does not have total cover from me, and which does not have interrupted straight lines between the Fireball's point of origin (the target of the spell) and the goblin's location.
Incorrect. Spells have effects. If a creature is forced to make a saving throw as part of the effect of a spell, it is a target of the spell.
There's no real distinction between spells and effects in the sense you're describing. If the effect of a spell has targets, the spell has targets, that's all there really is to it.
Exactly. Spells are a subset of the entire class of effects. If my monk fires off an elemental burst, the critters in that ball are targets of something, and it's not a spell.
The glossary definition of target is pretty clear as to what a target is, and points in space are not among them.
All this arguing over what a target is brings me back to the early days of CCGs.
So if a target is behind a wall from my vantage point, and I cast Fireball just past the wall such that they are included in the area and there is an unobstructed line to the point of origin of the aoe. Are they affected or are they not affected?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
They're affected:
Exactly. Total Cover's effectiveness is based on where the attack/effect is coming from, not necessarily a straight line between the caster and the target, based on the rule listed above.
You should quote something that says what you are saying if you think you have a point.
The word "spell" does not appear in the underlined section of this rule. That portion of the rule is talking about effects. Spell descriptions "have" effects. When you cast a spell, it creates a spell effect.
But if you insist on targeting your goblins with your Fireball spells, you are going to have a lot of trouble damaging that one hiding behind the boulder since that is an illegal target according to the clear path rule.
This distinction has always existed, and it is becoming more consistently described as such in the 2024 rules. Just as one example, the Concentration rules have been updated to mostly talk about what happens to effects instead of spells.
Another example of the distinction is made clear in the Ready Action:
and yet . . .
I would say that a point in space is clearly among the category of "something else" since it certainly is not a creature or an object.
and also:
You've both missed the point. The clear path rule doesn't care where the effect is coming from. It says this:
The requirement to target something with a spell is that the spellcaster must have a clear path to the target. That is crystal clear.
If the goblin has full cover behind the boulder, by rule, you CANNOT target that goblin with ANY spell. The only way to harm that goblin with a spell is to target a nearby point in space in order to create an AoE that will affect that goblin. In doing so, the goblin CANNOT be considered to be a target of this AoE spell, by rule.
Once again, notice that virtually ALL of the AoE spells in the PHB are written in such a way that they avoid calling an affected creature a "target". This is on purpose. Even the Fireball spell description that everyone used to hang their hat on in this discussion has been changed to reflect the true design. Even if we can now technically call an affected creature a "target" of the effect in 2024, that still doesn't make it a target of the spell. Spell descriptions typically only specify what is the target of the spell (the Symbol spell being a rare exception). That's why the word is avoided in all of those spell descriptions.
Yes, removing the word "targets" from the description of Fireball was very much on purpose. AoE effects are meant to target everyone inside, so writing "targets" in the description is completely redundant and unnecessary. WotC is removing this kind of language in the new book. Second, the old Fireball saying "targets" was extremely confusing because not all AoE spells did. So you'd think "Wait, so Fireball targets but Cone of Cold doesn't?" So instead of adding the word "targets" to EVERY SINGLE AoE spell in the game, they simply removed it and instead included it in the definition of "Target". You force someone to make a saving throw, you target it; end of story. No need to make spell descriptions longer than necessary.
I don't get this whole "spells are not effects". I think it's pointless to even discuss it, and it's also wrong. The portion of the sentence talking about saving throws doesn't say the word "spells"? Neither does the "attack roll" one. So if I cast Fire Bolt at someone, am I not targeting them? At this point you're just choosing to read the rules the way you want them to work. If you're the DM at your table, then by all means rule it like that. If you're a player then you might convince your DM to rule it like that. But I'm done with this conversation. It's like talking to a wall at this point. But have fun arguing about this with others.
They are affected since there is a clear line from the point of origin to the target.
However, the 2024 version of fireball seems to have removed the text about expanding around corners. This means that total cover from the point of origin of a fireball will prevent creatures within 20' of it from being affected even if they are just around a corner from the point of origin.
No more fireballing folks hiding behind a corner (or a table top) or anything else that can provide total cover without careful placement of the point of origin.
This argument makes no sense at all. The attack roll portion of the rule is more broadly encompassing. It includes anything that makes an attack roll, not just effects. It's meant to include such things as mundane weapon attacks.
Perhaps someone will find an exception, but after a brief scan through the new spells, I found exactly zero AoE spells which cause an attack roll to be made against a creature. This is by design.
Of course the Fire Bolt spell targets a creature. It says so right there in its spell description:
But Fire Bolt is NOT an AoE spell. Instead, it's a spell that targets a creature. There are a lot of spells that are designed like that.
Remember:
Spells such as Fire Bolt are in the category of spells that targets creatures. You aim your spell at a creature and hurl a mote of fire at it. Mechanically, you make a ranged spell attack (by making an attack roll) against that creature, which is the target of the spell.
AoE spells, on the other hand, are in the category of spells which target "something else". That something else is defined by the specific rule that governs that specific area:
So, the Targets section of the spellcasting rules (quoted above) states that the spell's description determines which of the three categories is targeted. Within this Targets section, there are two types of spells that are specifically called out as having their own rules for what exactly is targeted. Otherwise, the spell description will tell us directly. Those two types of spells are ones in which you might target yourself, and spells which create Areas of Effect.
For spells which create Areas of Effect, the rule states that the spell description will tell us if the spell has an area of effect . . . if it does, the area determines what the spell targets. The spell targets the point of origin, and the effect that is created spreads outwards from there in the manner defined for each type of area.
This makes even less sense. AoE spells are meant to target creatures, so they decided to remove all mentions of the term "target" from all of those spells? Say, what now? Then why is that term consistently used for dozens of other spells that are not AoE spells, including those which force the creature to make saving throws?
Sacred Flame, 2024:
Vicious Mockery, 2024:
Bane, 2024:
. . . And so on.
Answer: Because these spells (not just the spell effects) are actually targeting these creatures. The creature is targeted by the spell, which creates an effect that affects that creature.
In contrast, for AoE spells, the spell targets a location which becomes the point of origin for the spell effect which fills a defined space. This effect will affect some unknown creatures if those creatures happen to interact with this effect.
Remember: The spellcaster is making the targeting decisions when the spell is cast:
Consider a spell like Moonbeam:
So the way that this spell is designed, you might position this hazard onto an empty space where there are no creatures. As an example, perhaps 5 or 6 rounds later a creature might come along and stumble into this hazard.
How in the world was the spellcaster supposed to know that this particular creature would interact with this spell effect at some point in the future? The spell has already been cast long ago and the targeting decisions have already been made. It makes absolutely no sense for this creature to be considered to be a target of the spell.
Instead, the target of the spell is the location of the point of origin of the cylinder so that the cylinder can be properly placed onto the battlefield in the location that the spellcaster intends it to be. That's how AoE spells work.
Clairvoyance
Spells
Level 3 Divination (Bard, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard)
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 1 mile
Components: V, S, M (a focus worth 100+ GP, either a jeweled horn for hearing or a glass eye for seeing)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
You create an Invisible sensor "within range" in a location familiar to you (a place you have visited or seen before) or in an obvious location that is unfamiliar to you (such as behind a door, around a corner, or in a grove of trees). The intangible, invulnerable sensor remains in place for the duration.
VS
Insect Plague
Level 5 Conjuration (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer)
Casting Time: Action
Range: 300 feet
Components: V, S, M (a locust)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Swarming locusts fill a 20-foot-radius Sphere centered "on a point you choose within range". The Sphere remains for the duration, and its area is Lightly Obscured and Difficult Terrain.
I don't see why these spells should work differently, based on the wording
Already answered here by @SmiteMakesRight_3_5