An Elf is forced into a Bag of Devouring and then the character in possession of the bag Wild Shapes causing the bag to meld. Does the Elf remsin trapped until the Wild Shape ends?
An Elf is not an animal or vegetable. An Elf is a living creature.
This question is not about a Bag of Holding but in fact a Bag of Devouring.
The bag of devouring goes on to explain how a creature can escape the bag. However if the bag is melded equipment on a wild shaped creature can the bag function at all and us the Elf trapped until the bag unless from the Wild Shapes being?
I think the bag sort if ceases to exist and has no effect or function until the bag unless when the Wild Shapes creature returns to its original form.
MELD: When a creature uses Wild Shape equipment either falls to the the ground or melds. 👍
Let me answer with a question. Is the elf alive? Then it gets a turn and dies when that turn begins. Simple.
Bag of devouring is basically an instant death trap. If you trigger it (no save) and can't escape with your action (70% fail chance with 10 STR), you are going to die.
Anyone who tries to help has a 50% chance to get pulled in too (that is a 50% chance of failure before even getting to roll the DC20 STR check, no proficiency). Best case scenario, a max STR character has a 15% chance to save you, a raging barbarian has a 25.5% chance to save you.
I'm curious how folks would rule a Bag of Holding or a portable hole on a wild shaped druid.
"Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form."
What does having no effect mean when applied to a bag of holding or a portable hole?
Is the magic of the bag suppressed when it merges with a druid's wildshape? Do the contents get dumped on the ground next to the druid or do they remain in the bag?
If the bag and contents transform with the druid ..
Is it possible for a creature to exit the bag?
If there is a creature inside the bag or hole are they subject to the same air limitations as usual? Or would the "have no effect" suspend the function of the bag leaving the contents in some sort of suspended animation?
I realize that there likely isn't a RAW answer since "has no effect" isn't really well defined for a bag of holding or portable hole ... but I am curious how folks would rule it (since one of the parties I am DMing does have a moon druid and a bag of holding though the druid doesn't have the bag at the moment).
P.S. I would probably lean towards ruling that the extra dimensional space still exists so the contents remain unaffected and air limits are still imposed. However, I would also tend to rule that there is no exit from either a bag of holding or portable hole that has merged into a wildshaped or polymorphed creature.
I would just rule that the creature in the extra space is treated as normal. If they manage to escape (when possible) they just appear 5 ft from the druid.
Ultimately, it is up to the DM to interpret the rules.
Let me answer with a question. Is the elf alive? Then it gets a turn and dies when that turn begins. Simple.
Bag of devouring is basically an instant death trap. If you trigger it (no save) and can't escape with your action (70% fail chance with 10 STR), you are going to die.
Anyone who tries to help has a 50% chance to get pulled in too (that is a 50% chance of failure before even getting to roll the DC20 STR check, no proficiency). Best case scenario, a max STR character has a 15% chance to save you, a raging barbarian has a 25.5% chance to save you.
Although many of you focused on the wrong part of my question, this did lead to an answer as I am the DM in the situation and it's my discretion we are considering. The Elf woukd be in the Nod forc1 round, try to escape, and if not able to escape die.
The situation being that the Elf reached into the bag andcwas pulled inside on turn 2. During that same turn the druid grabbed the bag that the Elf was pulled into and then the druid Wild Shaped and the Bod became melded with the druid rather than falling to the ground.
So I figure the Elf cannot escape the bag while it is a part of the druid and therefore the Elf will try to escape, fail due to Wild Shape effect, and die.
Thanks everyone. I have also sent a tweet to Mr. Crawford about this question for an official answer.
I would just rule that the creature in the extra space is treated as normal. If they manage to escape (when possible) they just appear 5 ft from the druid.
I would rule the same way, but I don't think that there is any mean for someone trapped inside a portable hole or bag of holding to escape on their own, so I think the point is moot.
I did a little checking before writing that answer, and the portable hole does at least. I was originally going to say it is moot as well.
Although many of you focused on the wrong part of my question, this did lead to an answer as I am the DM in the situation and it's my discretion we are considering. The Elf woukd be in the Nod forc1 round, try to escape, and if not able to escape die.
It does not work that way.
The situation being that the Elf reached into the bag andcwas pulled inside on turn 2. During that same turn the druid grabbed the bag that the Elf was pulled into and then the druid Wild Shaped and the Bod became melded with the druid rather than falling to the ground.
So I figure the Elf cannot escape the bag while it is a part of the druid and therefore the Elf will try to escape, fail due to Wild Shape effect, and die.
The elf will not be able to escape, not because it is part of the druid, but simply because, when his turn comes he will be devoured and die before he can take the action that he needs to even try to escape.
Being merged in the wild shape is irrelevant.
This is correct, once the elf is in the bag outside its own turn, it is unable to help itself before doom.
Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed.
All the other "wordiness" explains the mechanics in which a living creature would find itself inside the bag, and the means by which it could avoid dying, none of which include being able to do so from inside the bag itself.
The situation being that the Elf reached into the bag andcwas pulled inside on turn 2. During that same turn the druid grabbed the bag that the Elf was pulled into and then the druid Wild Shaped and the Bod became melded with the druid rather than falling to the ground.
Be careful to understand the term "turn" properly.
Each creature gets their own TURN during a single ROUND of combat.
In your example, an Elf reaches into the bag on HIS turn.
The Druid then tries to help on HIS turn.
Other people might also try to do something on THEIR turn.
If nobody manages to get the Elf out before the ELF's turn comes up, then he is dead.
Also would add that the bag is a mouth. It being a creature and not merely gear, not sure that all DM's would interpret wild shape as transforming it. Plus the interior being extra-dimensional, the interior does not necessarily transform....
The bag is definitely an item and follows all rules associated with items.
I would consider the extra dimensional interior to be unchanged by what happens to the outside though.
When part of a living creature is placed in the bag, as happens when someone reaches inside it, there is a 50 percent chance that the creature is pulled inside the bag. A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to escape with a successful DC 15 Strength check. Another creature can use its action to reach into the bag to pull a creature out, doing so with a successful DC 20 Strength check (provided it isn't pulled inside the bag first). Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed.
A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to escape. If said creature is pulled into the bag on its turn, and has not taken their action yet, they may attempt to escape immediately. After being pulled into the bag, they will not die until the start of their next turn.
As far as Wild Shape goes, I don't think it's as complicated as people are making it out to be. I think that "equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form" is only referring to equipment that has effects (positive and negative) on the Druid, or available to the Druid. The creature inside the bag is in an extradimensional space. Whether the entrance to that extradimensional space is merged with the Druid or not seems irrelevant. It's not like time stops when an item is merged.
TBH, I think it makes perfect sense for the bag to continue functioning as normal internally. If the creature inside is able to make a successful escape attempt, they crawl out of your ******* ala Ace Ventura 2.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Lyxen, I did not say that attempting to retrieve something from the bag would not be an action. I said that a creature pulled into the bag on their turn, and has not used their action, is capable of attempting to break free immediately. I said this to address the notion that a creature is unable to save itself from being devoured, due to the "death at start of turn" clause, which is not an absolute.
There are plenty of ways that a creature may find themselves sucked into the bag without having used their action in the process. Someone may have a readied action to stuff you in the bag on your turn, and you can subsequently attempt to break free immediately. Someone with Action Surge can attempt to break free immediately. Someone with a spell capable of interplanar travel (which could even be quickened to a bonus action for Sorcerers) can use that to bypass the STR check.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I would just rule that the creature in the extra space is treated as normal. If they manage to escape (when possible) they just appear 5 ft from the druid.
I would rule the same way, but I don't think that there is any mean for someone trapped inside a portable hole or bag of holding to escape on their own, so I think the point is moot.
Text on the Bag of Devouring
"When part of a living creature is placed in the bag, as happens when someone reaches inside it, there is a 50 percent chance that the creature is pulled inside the bag. A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to escape with a successful DC 15 Strength check. Another creature can use its action to reach into the bag to pull a creature out, doing so with a successful DC 20 Strength check (provided it isn't pulled inside the bag first). Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed."
P.S. Just reaching into the bag would not be a use of an action in my opinion. actually retrieving something would be. So if a creature still has its action available when reaching into a bag of devouring and being consumed, it can use its action to try to escape. Similarly, party members could try to rescue them depending on initiative but at the start of their next turn they are consumed by the bag.
Portable Hole
"If the hole is folded up, a creature with in the hole's extradimensional space can use an action to make a DC 10 Strength check. On a successful check, the creature forces its way out and appears within 5 feet of the portable hole or the creature carrying it."
Both the bag of devouring and portable hole can allow a creature to escape the extra dimensional space. I would expect similar rules might apply to the Bag of Holding but it isn't specified.
Could a creature try to escape a Bag of Holding before suffocating? Ultimately up to the DM but I would tend to use the same rules for the portable hole for a creature trying to escape a bag of holding (up to the DM though) ... which would place the creature within 5' of the transformed moon druid if they managed to escape either the Bag of Holding or Bag of Devouring. In the end, it is completely a DM call though.
I would just rule that the creature in the extra space is treated as normal. If they manage to escape (when possible) they just appear 5 ft from the druid.
I would rule the same way, but I don't think that there is any mean for someone trapped inside a portable hole or bag of holding to escape on their own, so I think the point is moot.
Text on the Bag of Devouring
"When part of a living creature is placed in the bag, as happens when someone reaches inside it, there is a 50 percent chance that the creature is pulled inside the bag. A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to escape with a successful DC 15 Strength check. Another creature can use its action to reach into the bag to pull a creature out, doing so with a successful DC 20 Strength check (provided it isn't pulled inside the bag first). Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed."
P.S. Just reaching into the bag would not be a use of an action in my opinion. actually retrieving something would be. So if a creature still has its action available when reaching into a bag of devouring and being consumed, it can use its action to try to escape. Similarly, party members could try to rescue them depending on initiative but at the start of their next turn they are consumed by the bag.
Portable Hole
"If the hole is folded up, a creature with in the hole's extradimensional space can use an action to make a DC 10 Strength check. On a successful check, the creature forces its way out and appears within 5 feet of the portable hole or the creature carrying it."
Both the bag of devouring and portable hole can allow a creature to escape the extra dimensional space. I would expect similar rules might apply to the Bag of Holding but it isn't specified.
Could a creature try to escape a Bag of Holding before suffocating? Ultimately up to the DM but I would tend to use the same rules for the portable hole for a creature trying to escape a bag of holding (up to the DM though) ... which would place the creature within 5' of the transformed moon druid if they managed to escape either the Bag of Holding or Bag of Devouring. In the end, it is completely a DM call though.
I agree that the simple act of reaching into the bag is not an action; Retrieving something (Ie, pulling something out of the bag) is, and this is backed dup by the text saying the person attempting to save (ie retrieve) the creature must use their action to do so. Since retrieving an item is an action with a bag of holding it is practically guaranteed that a creature will be about to use its action when they reach into the bag. I would allow the resolution of that action to be the strength check to escape; otherwise the chances of a creature getting to escape the bag is practically nil (in that you wouldn't have an action to use outside of very specific classes and circumstances, and the chance of someone successfully saving you is pretty low, given the 50% chance of the rescuer being pulled in too + the higher STR check to save someone.
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An Elf is forced into a Bag of Devouring and then the character in possession of the bag Wild Shapes causing the bag to meld. Does the Elf remsin trapped until the Wild Shape ends?
An Elf is not an animal or vegetable. An Elf is a living creature.
This question is not about a Bag of Holding but in fact a Bag of Devouring.
The bag of devouring goes on to explain how a creature can escape the bag. However if the bag is melded equipment on a wild shaped creature can the bag function at all and us the Elf trapped until the bag unless from the Wild Shapes being?
I think the bag sort if ceases to exist and has no effect or function until the bag unless when the Wild Shapes creature returns to its original form.
MELD: When a creature uses Wild Shape equipment either falls to the the ground or melds. 👍
“Living creature” is literally what “animal” means.
Let me answer with a question. Is the elf alive? Then it gets a turn and dies when that turn begins. Simple.
Bag of devouring is basically an instant death trap. If you trigger it (no save) and can't escape with your action (70% fail chance with 10 STR), you are going to die.
Anyone who tries to help has a 50% chance to get pulled in too (that is a 50% chance of failure before even getting to roll the DC20 STR check, no proficiency). Best case scenario, a max STR character has a 15% chance to save you, a raging barbarian has a 25.5% chance to save you.
I'm curious how folks would rule a Bag of Holding or a portable hole on a wild shaped druid.
"Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form."
What does having no effect mean when applied to a bag of holding or a portable hole?
Is the magic of the bag suppressed when it merges with a druid's wildshape? Do the contents get dumped on the ground next to the druid or do they remain in the bag?
If the bag and contents transform with the druid ..
Is it possible for a creature to exit the bag?
If there is a creature inside the bag or hole are they subject to the same air limitations as usual? Or would the "have no effect" suspend the function of the bag leaving the contents in some sort of suspended animation?
I realize that there likely isn't a RAW answer since "has no effect" isn't really well defined for a bag of holding or portable hole ... but I am curious how folks would rule it (since one of the parties I am DMing does have a moon druid and a bag of holding though the druid doesn't have the bag at the moment).
P.S. I would probably lean towards ruling that the extra dimensional space still exists so the contents remain unaffected and air limits are still imposed. However, I would also tend to rule that there is no exit from either a bag of holding or portable hole that has merged into a wildshaped or polymorphed creature.
I would just rule that the creature in the extra space is treated as normal. If they manage to escape (when possible) they just appear 5 ft from the druid.
Ultimately, it is up to the DM to interpret the rules.
No. Game terms are very specific. An Elf is a creature not an animal.
Although many of you focused on the wrong part of my question, this did lead to an answer as I am the DM in the situation and it's my discretion we are considering. The Elf woukd be in the Nod forc1 round, try to escape, and if not able to escape die.
The situation being that the Elf reached into the bag andcwas pulled inside on turn 2. During that same turn the druid grabbed the bag that the Elf was pulled into and then the druid Wild Shaped and the Bod became melded with the druid rather than falling to the ground.
So I figure the Elf cannot escape the bag while it is a part of the druid and therefore the Elf will try to escape, fail due to Wild Shape effect, and die.
Thanks everyone. I have also sent a tweet to Mr. Crawford about this question for an official answer.
Literally yes it is.
I did a little checking before writing that answer, and the portable hole does at least. I was originally going to say it is moot as well.
This is correct, once the elf is in the bag outside its own turn, it is unable to help itself before doom.
Irrelevant. The bag of devouring has different, specific rules for living creatures. Elf is a living creature, thus follows these rules.
So why bother with all the wordiness in the description and simply say that any living thing within the bag dies?
It does actually say that.
All the other "wordiness" explains the mechanics in which a living creature would find itself inside the bag, and the means by which it could avoid dying, none of which include being able to do so from inside the bag itself.
The bit about vegetable and animal matter is to explain that it also automatically eats any food, corpses, etc put in it.
Be careful to understand the term "turn" properly.
Each creature gets their own TURN during a single ROUND of combat.
In your example, an Elf reaches into the bag on HIS turn.
The Druid then tries to help on HIS turn.
Other people might also try to do something on THEIR turn.
If nobody manages to get the Elf out before the ELF's turn comes up, then he is dead.
The bag is definitely an item and follows all rules associated with items.
I would consider the extra dimensional interior to be unchanged by what happens to the outside though.
The bag is absolutely an item, not a mouth. The item is connected to the extradimensional creature, not a part of the creature itself.
A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to escape. If said creature is pulled into the bag on its turn, and has not taken their action yet, they may attempt to escape immediately. After being pulled into the bag, they will not die until the start of their next turn.
As far as Wild Shape goes, I don't think it's as complicated as people are making it out to be. I think that "equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form" is only referring to equipment that has effects (positive and negative) on the Druid, or available to the Druid. The creature inside the bag is in an extradimensional space. Whether the entrance to that extradimensional space is merged with the Druid or not seems irrelevant. It's not like time stops when an item is merged.
TBH, I think it makes perfect sense for the bag to continue functioning as normal internally. If the creature inside is able to make a successful escape attempt, they crawl out of your ******* ala Ace Ventura 2.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Lyxen, I did not say that attempting to retrieve something from the bag would not be an action. I said that a creature pulled into the bag on their turn, and has not used their action, is capable of attempting to break free immediately. I said this to address the notion that a creature is unable to save itself from being devoured, due to the "death at start of turn" clause, which is not an absolute.
There are plenty of ways that a creature may find themselves sucked into the bag without having used their action in the process. Someone may have a readied action to stuff you in the bag on your turn, and you can subsequently attempt to break free immediately. Someone with Action Surge can attempt to break free immediately. Someone with a spell capable of interplanar travel (which could even be quickened to a bonus action for Sorcerers) can use that to bypass the STR check.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Text on the Bag of Devouring
"When part of a living creature is placed in the bag, as happens when someone reaches inside it, there is a 50 percent chance that the creature is pulled inside the bag. A creature inside the bag can use its action to try to escape with a successful DC 15 Strength check. Another creature can use its action to reach into the bag to pull a creature out, doing so with a successful DC 20 Strength check (provided it isn't pulled inside the bag first). Any creature that starts its turn inside the bag is devoured, its body destroyed."
P.S. Just reaching into the bag would not be a use of an action in my opinion. actually retrieving something would be. So if a creature still has its action available when reaching into a bag of devouring and being consumed, it can use its action to try to escape. Similarly, party members could try to rescue them depending on initiative but at the start of their next turn they are consumed by the bag.
Portable Hole
"If the hole is folded up, a creature with in the hole's extradimensional space can use an action to make a DC 10 Strength check. On a successful check, the creature forces its way out and appears within 5 feet of the portable hole or the creature carrying it."
Both the bag of devouring and portable hole can allow a creature to escape the extra dimensional space. I would expect similar rules might apply to the Bag of Holding but it isn't specified.
Could a creature try to escape a Bag of Holding before suffocating? Ultimately up to the DM but I would tend to use the same rules for the portable hole for a creature trying to escape a bag of holding (up to the DM though) ... which would place the creature within 5' of the transformed moon druid if they managed to escape either the Bag of Holding or Bag of Devouring. In the end, it is completely a DM call though.
Thanks everyone. I'm done with this thread but feel free to carry on. I appreciate the assistance.
I agree that the simple act of reaching into the bag is not an action; Retrieving something (Ie, pulling something out of the bag) is, and this is backed dup by the text saying the person attempting to save (ie retrieve) the creature must use their action to do so. Since retrieving an item is an action with a bag of holding it is practically guaranteed that a creature will be about to use its action when they reach into the bag. I would allow the resolution of that action to be the strength check to escape; otherwise the chances of a creature getting to escape the bag is practically nil (in that you wouldn't have an action to use outside of very specific classes and circumstances, and the chance of someone successfully saving you is pretty low, given the 50% chance of the rescuer being pulled in too + the higher STR check to save someone.