Considering how far behind the other classes the 2014 sorcerer was and how far ahead of that the 2024 sorcerer is, should a player be allowed to play the 2024 sorcerer in a game where the other characters are 2014 characters? Will the 2024 sorcerer out pace the other characters or will it actually balance out?
Considering how far behind the other classes the 2014 sorcerer was and how far ahead of that the 2024 sorcerer is, should a player be allowed to play the 2024 sorcerer in a game where the other characters are 2014 characters? Will the 2024 sorcerer out pace the other characters or will it actually balance out?
Do you mean compared to a) the wizard, b) other full casters, or c) other classes in general. Because compared to other classes in general, in 2014 sorcerers were one of the most powerful classes in the game.
I would have to disagree, in 2014 sorcerers could be powerful if they were built to be optimized though. Sorcerers, especially draconic sorcerers were very weak comparatively to other classes and subclasses in the game. Hence the question about using the 2024 sorcerer in a 2014 game. Would the 2024 sorcerer outrun everyone else or considering the relative weakness of the 2014 sorcerer would it roughly balance?
You mean in 2014, sorcerers would be very weak compared to a rogue or monk or barbarian? If that's how you see it, then yeah, sure, use the 2024 one.
But it is very well known that full casters are, by far, the most powerful classes in the game, regardless of the subclasses.
So to answer your question, would the 2024 sorcerer outrun everyone else in a party of 2014 characters? I think it'd probably be fine compared to other full casters. Would it outrun the rest of the classes? Yes, by a mile, like it has been doing since 2014. You'd just make it even more evident.
For a bit more context, if this is a low level campaign, then it probably should be fine, regardless if you use the 2014 or 2024 sorcerer. If it's more like mid level, then it's going to start feeling unbalanced in favor of the sorcerer (compared to non-full casters). At high levels it's not going to be even kind of close. So in a low level campaign, I don't think it'd be an issue.
No. Not fair to the other players to give one player the souped up version of their class and not the others. Balance is important also. I played both 2014 and 2024 sorcerers and both are balanced with the other classes. Some perks and some drawbacks which is the way it was intended.
I would not mix ONE 2024 character into a party of 2014 characters, it wouldn't be fair. Also, keep in mind that (like all subclasses in 2024) the sorcerer gains some powerful stuff... like 2/long rest gain advantage on all attack rolls and a +1 to their spell DCs for a full minute each. Tossing around spells/cantrips with advantage for 10 rounds means they're going to hit a lot more often than anyone else. A +1 to their spell DC might not sound like much, but it is actually quite powerful, especially if their prime casting stat is maxed out (or if they raise it at every opportunity), and they can combine it with Heighten metamagic meaning that save with the higher DC is made at disadvantage.
Also, that's just one ability. Their spells are also different, and can DOUBLE their damage output each round. For example: Witch Bolt:
2014 version - Attack roll required for d12 on a hit. If you hit, then as an action each round thereafter you get to inflict d12.
2024 version - Attack roll required for 2d12 on a hit, but even if that misses, you still get to inflict d12 per round as a Bonus Action, which means you can also toss in Fire Bolts every round for an additional d10. That effectively doubles the damage output of the Sorcerer. Then add in advantage on all those attack rolls if they use their innate sorcery ability.
From a balance perspective, I think it would be fine. From a fair perspective, it's very unfair to let your sorcerer play with new toys and not the rest of the group. I'd personally not do it. If I am telling my table this is a 2014 game, that means everything.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
No reason whatsoever to disallow it. As you say 2014 sorcerers were terrible outside of really cheesy, soulless min maxed broken builds. 2024 is at least fun to play.
No reason whatsoever to disallow it. As you say 2014 sorcerers were terrible outside of really cheesy, soulless min maxed broken builds. 2024 is at least fun to play.
This is objectively false. Sorcerer was one of my favorite classes to play under the 2014 rules.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I’m playing 2014 clockwork sorcerer in a 2024 game I don’t consider it to be weak Biggest benefit with 2024 is the expanded spell list given dragon sorcerer
I’m playing 2014 clockwork sorcerer in a 2024 game I don’t consider it to be weak Biggest benefit with 2024 is the expanded spell list given dragon sorcerer
To be fair, the clockwork sorcerer was heavily nerfed in the 2024 PHB. So I think in that particular case, the 2014 version would feel stronger.
I’m playing 2014 clockwork sorcerer in a 2024 game I don’t consider it to be weak Biggest benefit with 2024 is the expanded spell list given dragon sorcerer
As someone who's played draconic sorcerers, I'd argue that Innate Sorcery and moving Sorcerous Restoration from capstone to a relatively low-level feature (while buffing it at the same time) have a larger impact on the class as a whole. The expanded spell list is great for Draconics, but meaningless for everyone else.
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Considering how far behind the other classes the 2014 sorcerer was and how far ahead of that the 2024 sorcerer is, should a player be allowed to play the 2024 sorcerer in a game where the other characters are 2014 characters? Will the 2024 sorcerer out pace the other characters or will it actually balance out?
Do you mean compared to a) the wizard, b) other full casters, or c) other classes in general. Because compared to other classes in general, in 2014 sorcerers were one of the most powerful classes in the game.
I would have to disagree, in 2014 sorcerers could be powerful if they were built to be optimized though. Sorcerers, especially draconic sorcerers were very weak comparatively to other classes and subclasses in the game. Hence the question about using the 2024 sorcerer in a 2014 game. Would the 2024 sorcerer outrun everyone else or considering the relative weakness of the 2014 sorcerer would it roughly balance?
You mean in 2014, sorcerers would be very weak compared to a rogue or monk or barbarian? If that's how you see it, then yeah, sure, use the 2024 one.
But it is very well known that full casters are, by far, the most powerful classes in the game, regardless of the subclasses.
So to answer your question, would the 2024 sorcerer outrun everyone else in a party of 2014 characters? I think it'd probably be fine compared to other full casters. Would it outrun the rest of the classes? Yes, by a mile, like it has been doing since 2014. You'd just make it even more evident.
For a bit more context, if this is a low level campaign, then it probably should be fine, regardless if you use the 2014 or 2024 sorcerer. If it's more like mid level, then it's going to start feeling unbalanced in favor of the sorcerer (compared to non-full casters). At high levels it's not going to be even kind of close.
So in a low level campaign, I don't think it'd be an issue.
No. Not fair to the other players to give one player the souped up version of their class and not the others. Balance is important also. I played both 2014 and 2024 sorcerers and both are balanced with the other classes. Some perks and some drawbacks which is the way it was intended.
I would not mix ONE 2024 character into a party of 2014 characters, it wouldn't be fair. Also, keep in mind that (like all subclasses in 2024) the sorcerer gains some powerful stuff... like 2/long rest gain advantage on all attack rolls and a +1 to their spell DCs for a full minute each. Tossing around spells/cantrips with advantage for 10 rounds means they're going to hit a lot more often than anyone else. A +1 to their spell DC might not sound like much, but it is actually quite powerful, especially if their prime casting stat is maxed out (or if they raise it at every opportunity), and they can combine it with Heighten metamagic meaning that save with the higher DC is made at disadvantage.
Also, that's just one ability. Their spells are also different, and can DOUBLE their damage output each round. For example: Witch Bolt:
2014 version - Attack roll required for d12 on a hit. If you hit, then as an action each round thereafter you get to inflict d12.
2024 version - Attack roll required for 2d12 on a hit, but even if that misses, you still get to inflict d12 per round as a Bonus Action, which means you can also toss in Fire Bolts every round for an additional d10. That effectively doubles the damage output of the Sorcerer. Then add in advantage on all those attack rolls if they use their innate sorcery ability.
They will outshine the 2014 characters.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
From a balance perspective, I think it would be fine. From a fair perspective, it's very unfair to let your sorcerer play with new toys and not the rest of the group. I'd personally not do it. If I am telling my table this is a 2014 game, that means everything.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
No reason whatsoever to disallow it. As you say 2014 sorcerers were terrible outside of really cheesy, soulless min maxed broken builds. 2024 is at least fun to play.
The funny thing is that the other players don't want to play 2024 characters, at least not yet.
This is objectively false. Sorcerer was one of my favorite classes to play under the 2014 rules.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
There was nothing broken about 2014 sorcerers, they were just as good as wizards, and most I know actually preferred them over wizards.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I’m playing 2014 clockwork sorcerer in a 2024 game I don’t consider it to be weak Biggest benefit with 2024 is the expanded spell list given dragon sorcerer
To be fair, the clockwork sorcerer was heavily nerfed in the 2024 PHB. So I think in that particular case, the 2014 version would feel stronger.
As someone who's played draconic sorcerers, I'd argue that Innate Sorcery and moving Sorcerous Restoration from capstone to a relatively low-level feature (while buffing it at the same time) have a larger impact on the class as a whole. The expanded spell list is great for Draconics, but meaningless for everyone else.