That which falls from grace may yet rise to regain it. If Zariel were to return to her celestial self, how glorious would be the tales!
—Mordenkainen
Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. Both types of creatures are associated with metaphysical planes of existence—specifically the Outer Planes—that embody certain alignments. For example, most devils hail from the Nine Hells, a plane of lawful evil. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil or tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceases to be lawful evil, it changes into something new—a transformation worthy of legend.
What are some of your ideas for creatures whose transformation from evil to good, chaotic to lawful, or vice versa? Hags? Dragons? Oozes?
I find it interesting that evil welcomes everyone with open arms - while good isn't having any, what so ever. If you're evil right now, hell is more than willing to take you in, but if you did evil once before, long ago, you'll never go to heaven.
So from a cost/benefit point of view, it's wiser to become evil than good.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well, evil is technically just anything and everything other than good, the shadow as opposed to good’s light. An angel wouldn’t be accepted into hell so long as it remained an angel, but anything other than good would be acceptable. Naturally, that would result in a much broader gateway than heaven.
In that way, it is much easier to get into hell then heaven.
Then again, hell IS hell, and therefore an undesirable place to be…
and heaven IS heaven, and therefore a desirable place to be.
High effort for great reward: heaven
Nearly no effort for absolutely no reward and eternal damnation: hell.
for a cost benefit point of view, good is better than evil.
If I recall, in the wildemount setting there is some sort of diety that changed alignment when it transformed from demon to fey. Don’t know how or if that shook up exandria at all
I find it interesting that evil welcomes everyone with open arms - while good isn't having any, what so ever. If you're evil right now, hell is more than willing to take you in, but if you did evil once before, long ago, you'll never go to heaven.
So from a cost/benefit point of view, it's wiser to become evil than good.
I mean, that's not how a lot of belief systems work, thus the concepts of "penance", "redemption", "salvation", etc. Really, the fact that Evil has to use things like bargains or the theft of souls seems to highlight to me that they clearly aren't pulling the numbers they need simply by humanoid nature.
I mean, that's not how a lot of belief systems work, thus the concepts of "penance", "redemption", "salvation", etc. Really, the fact that Evil has to use things like bargains or the theft of souls seems to highlight to me that they clearly aren't pulling the numbers they need simply by humanoid nature.
Hm. I'm aware of those things, but ... well, frankly it seems to me that's a way to monetize the fear of hell. I've read quite a bit of holy texts, and while there are allegories and parables, I don't recall that it's written 'thou, who hast sinned against all that is holy, shall be condemned to eternity in hell - unless ya pay up!'
There are numerous tales of knights and so on who failed in some manner, and earned redemption on a holy quest - 'goeth thou to the holy land and purge it of the goblins, and ye shalt be redeemed in the many-fanged eyes of almighty god' sort of thing. But that's sort of what I'm saying: If you're evil, it takes quite a bit of doing to gain entry to the upper planes.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I mean, that's not how a lot of belief systems work, thus the concepts of "penance", "redemption", "salvation", etc. Really, the fact that Evil has to use things like bargains or the theft of souls seems to highlight to me that they clearly aren't pulling the numbers they need simply by humanoid nature.
Hm. I'm aware of those things, but ... well, frankly it seems to me that's a way to monetize the fear of hell. I've read quite a bit of holy texts, and while there are allegories and parables, I don't recall that it's written 'thou, who hast sinned against all that is holy, shall be condemned to eternity in hell - unless ya pay up!'
There are numerous tales of knights and so on who failed in some manner, and earned redemption on a holy quest - 'goeth thou to the holy land and purge it of the goblins, and ye shalt be redeemed in the many-fanged eyes of almighty god' sort of thing. But that's sort of what I'm saying: If you're evil, it takes quite a bit of doing to gain entry to the upper planes.
I'm not looking to start a full-blown religious discourse here, as I've found that rarely goes anywhere constructive, so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what we think is or is not present in real-world faiths.
Also, obviously stories aren't going to just go "this guy did a bad thing and later he felt bad about it and said he was sorry, and now he's going to heaven" because that ain't exactly an interesting story.
However, within the actual game framework we have there is no material that moving up the morality axis is intrinsically harder than moving down it, and the sidebar on Paladin oaths specifically says that the common response to a Paladin failing to live up to their Oath's ideals is something along the lines of a confession or personal contemplation and prayer for forgiveness. It's only if the character is actively forswearing their vow and DM and/or player are interested in exploring larger consequences that anything significant starts to happen. There is pretty much no basis for the idea that 5e calls for Good to set a high and unforgiving moral standard.
Also, regarding the "cost/benefits" bit, keep in mind that mortal souls that incarnate on the Lower Planes after death basically end up as resources for the powers of whatever plane they end up on or are just absorbed into the plane itself.
Regarding the initial question, I tend to subscribe to the idea of pretty much only "outsiders" (fiends, celestials, and whatever modrons and slaadi are) being "locked" to an alignment, and that they're in essence all the same "species"; they just change physically to suit some combination of their mentality, surroundings, and degree of power.
Still, though, if we do presume wider-spread alignment restrictions, I do like to see dragons that are off-alignment for their type. Especially good/neutral chromatics, though there are probably better actual plot hooks for evil metallics.
Canonically, you get a nightmare when you torture a pegasus to its breaking point. And I'm pretty sure becoming a vampire changes your alignment, RAW. Also, if you spend long enough on certain planes (Negative, Celestial), your alignment can change. Nightwalkers are kind of born that way.
Personally, I don't really pay attention to alignment for things in the monster manual. If I want an evil unicorn in my game, I'm making my unicorn evil. Corruption arcs can spark fun lore, though. In my homebrew pantheon, all the gods started off as good-aligned. Over time some "fell", and their powers and portfolios shifted as a result of their alignment changes. And while I've never fully done a creature redemption arc, my players did save a half-corrupted pegasus, freeing it from evil and eventually restoring its lost wing.
In some very arcane 4e lore, there was a slaad who was so taken by an enlightened githzerai that it forswore chaos and trained under him. I'd like to think it remained a slaad, but learned to use its chaos powers for lawful ends.
Canonically, you get a nightmare when you torture a pegasus to its breaking point.
Really? Do you have a source? I'm happy to take your word for it, but I'd really like to read the source material =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Canonically, you get a nightmare when you torture a pegasus to its breaking point.
Really? Do you have a source? I'm happy to take your word for it, but I'd really like to read the source material =)
Creating a Nightmare. Nightmares don’t appear naturally in the multiverse. They must be created from pegasi. The ritual that creates a nightmare requires the torturous removal of a pegasus’s wings, driving that noble creature to evil as it is transformed by dark magic.
Straight from the Basic Rules/Monster Manual description.
Straight from the Basic Rules/Monster Manual description.
Oh. Well that's embarassing. In my defence, I don't have the book, and I never had the opportunity to look up Nightmares here on DNDB =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus, there’s a bearded devil named Krickendolt that suffered brain damage while on the front lines of the Blood War, causing him to become chaotic good. Now working on destroying demon-spawning trees, his comrades discovered his pity for the abyssal chickens they create, and have been torturing him by forcing him to kill them himself.
What are some of your ideas for creatures whose transformation from evil to good, chaotic to lawful, or vice versa? Hags? Dragons? Oozes?
I find it interesting that evil welcomes everyone with open arms - while good isn't having any, what so ever. If you're evil right now, hell is more than willing to take you in, but if you did evil once before, long ago, you'll never go to heaven.
So from a cost/benefit point of view, it's wiser to become evil than good.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well, evil is technically just anything and everything other than good, the shadow as opposed to good’s light. An angel wouldn’t be accepted into hell so long as it remained an angel, but anything other than good would be acceptable. Naturally, that would result in a much broader gateway than heaven.
In that way, it is much easier to get into hell then heaven.
Then again, hell IS hell, and therefore an undesirable place to be…
and heaven IS heaven, and therefore a desirable place to be.
High effort for great reward: heaven
Nearly no effort for absolutely no reward and eternal damnation: hell.
for a cost benefit point of view, good is better than evil.
At least in the real world.
In dnd, heaven and hell are split up into various outer planes.
Generally everyone works together for the common good in the upper planes
Generally everyone fights to take each other’s scraps in the lower planes
Even then, better good than evil
If I recall, in the wildemount setting there is some sort of diety that changed alignment when it transformed from demon to fey. Don’t know how or if that shook up exandria at all
I mean, that's not how a lot of belief systems work, thus the concepts of "penance", "redemption", "salvation", etc. Really, the fact that Evil has to use things like bargains or the theft of souls seems to highlight to me that they clearly aren't pulling the numbers they need simply by humanoid nature.
Hm. I'm aware of those things, but ... well, frankly it seems to me that's a way to monetize the fear of hell. I've read quite a bit of holy texts, and while there are allegories and parables, I don't recall that it's written 'thou, who hast sinned against all that is holy, shall be condemned to eternity in hell - unless ya pay up!'
There are numerous tales of knights and so on who failed in some manner, and earned redemption on a holy quest - 'goeth thou to the holy land and purge it of the goblins, and ye shalt be redeemed in the many-fanged eyes of almighty god' sort of thing. But that's sort of what I'm saying: If you're evil, it takes quite a bit of doing to gain entry to the upper planes.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'm not looking to start a full-blown religious discourse here, as I've found that rarely goes anywhere constructive, so I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what we think is or is not present in real-world faiths.
Also, obviously stories aren't going to just go "this guy did a bad thing and later he felt bad about it and said he was sorry, and now he's going to heaven" because that ain't exactly an interesting story.
However, within the actual game framework we have there is no material that moving up the morality axis is intrinsically harder than moving down it, and the sidebar on Paladin oaths specifically says that the common response to a Paladin failing to live up to their Oath's ideals is something along the lines of a confession or personal contemplation and prayer for forgiveness. It's only if the character is actively forswearing their vow and DM and/or player are interested in exploring larger consequences that anything significant starts to happen. There is pretty much no basis for the idea that 5e calls for Good to set a high and unforgiving moral standard.
Also, regarding the "cost/benefits" bit, keep in mind that mortal souls that incarnate on the Lower Planes after death basically end up as resources for the powers of whatever plane they end up on or are just absorbed into the plane itself.
Regarding the initial question, I tend to subscribe to the idea of pretty much only "outsiders" (fiends, celestials, and whatever modrons and slaadi are) being "locked" to an alignment, and that they're in essence all the same "species"; they just change physically to suit some combination of their mentality, surroundings, and degree of power.
Still, though, if we do presume wider-spread alignment restrictions, I do like to see dragons that are off-alignment for their type. Especially good/neutral chromatics, though there are probably better actual plot hooks for evil metallics.
Medium humanoid (human), lawful neutral
Canonically, you get a nightmare when you torture a pegasus to its breaking point. And I'm pretty sure becoming a vampire changes your alignment, RAW. Also, if you spend long enough on certain planes (Negative, Celestial), your alignment can change. Nightwalkers are kind of born that way.
Personally, I don't really pay attention to alignment for things in the monster manual. If I want an evil unicorn in my game, I'm making my unicorn evil. Corruption arcs can spark fun lore, though. In my homebrew pantheon, all the gods started off as good-aligned. Over time some "fell", and their powers and portfolios shifted as a result of their alignment changes. And while I've never fully done a creature redemption arc, my players did save a half-corrupted pegasus, freeing it from evil and eventually restoring its lost wing.
In some very arcane 4e lore, there was a slaad who was so taken by an enlightened githzerai that it forswore chaos and trained under him. I'd like to think it remained a slaad, but learned to use its chaos powers for lawful ends.
Really? Do you have a source? I'm happy to take your word for it, but I'd really like to read the source material =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Straight from the Basic Rules/Monster Manual description.
Oh. Well that's embarassing. In my defence, I don't have the book, and I never had the opportunity to look up Nightmares here on DNDB =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In Baldur’s Gate: Descent into Avernus, there’s a bearded devil named Krickendolt that suffered brain damage while on the front lines of the Blood War, causing him to become chaotic good. Now working on destroying demon-spawning trees, his comrades discovered his pity for the abyssal chickens they create, and have been torturing him by forcing him to kill them himself.
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