So, I've been spending too much time thinking about trolls.
See, there's much about the troll that just doesn't work. See, trolls are (sorta) intelligent bipeds, but they're just not doing anything with it. In very real terms, they've got about as much going in as ... bears, or tigers. They're just predators. Barely even that, I figure they just hang about their lairs and eat anything too stupid to run away. No production, no agriculture, no society, no cooperation, no reason to have a language basically, no nothing.
So ... that's my baseline: Trolls don't work. As a race. They're not what they've been made out to be.
Also, they simply don't reproduce. Like, not only are they not going to go out and find a partner at the local barn dance - I reject the idea that they're gendered. They're all just 'troll'.
So. This needs fixing.
Trolls are vessels. Not creatures. It's why they are green, why their blood is green. They are saturated by a type of fungi that warps and animates them. Under the right circumstances, when someone dies to a troll, they will eventually rise as a new troll. Not like undead spawning undead, but a far more ... selective process. You have to die, you have to get the fungi into your bloodstream while still alive, and you need to fall in a suitably swampy environ. Then and only then can the fungi take hold, and grow, and warp/mutate/enlarge and eventually reanimate the corpse.
It explains much, when you think about it: The smell, the color, the lack of useful intellect, the complete absense of a social structure. Trolls are closer to undeath than to life. It's also why they regenerate: It's a basic component of their nature. The fungi itself, the animating agent, is unharmed by damage to the body, and the primary thing the fungi does for the body is to regenerate it - with certain limitations, such as definitely not bringing the original back to life, just work to repair the physical body.
As a side effect, the area around a troll lair will also gradually change and warp - fungi spreading from the troll, via ... well, whatever comes out of trolls. So an ever expanding biome of fungus infected wildlife and vegetation.
And again, this is why fire is important when hunting trolls. Sure, it stops the regeneration - but also, and perhaps actually more importantly, it burns away the spore so you don't just get another troll infestation in 6 months.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I really like Trolls as a monster and have ever since I was a child and was introduced to them in the golden age of 80s Fantasy Movies.
Within the D&D world, I really like that they have some flavor, including animated limbs that were severed. The first time I had the arm that was lopped off grab the ankle of a player as they were about to run really surprised the players I was with. I am not sure if you were talking about Trolls in general of if you were specifically talking about Trolls in 5e.
Between the information in the 2014 and 2025Monster Manuals, there is some decent info that can inspire lots of good ideas.
As far as reproducing, the 2014 MM states that Trolls are "Born with horrific appetites" indicating that they are indeed born. The 2024 MM talks about how Trolls do cooperate in small groups, so I guess they can work together if the situation is right.
I love the Fungi angle you have presented as I am a fan of fungi and how it interacts with creatures. I have played a few different Circle of Spores Druids, and am working on an Antagonist idea called the Rot-Father.
Would your Trolls generate Spores in any way?
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Slightly longer: The troll is not a mushroom, or a myconid, obviously, but it certainly generates spores. The fungi lives primarily in the blood of the troll, but get's into everything else to a lesser degree. If the troll ... 'goes to the toilet', it spreads spores. If it coughs or spits, it spreads spores.
In essence, think of it like cordyceps, maybe. Although without the actual zombie thing.
Trolls is one of the only (vaguely) intelligent species I don't feel like portraying as 'Society Builders'.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Oh my god, their Orks from Warhammer 40k. Big, green and mean, just without the insanity and more on the stupidity.
I guess that's fair. It's not 100% a rip-off, but I'm not blind to the .... glaring similarities =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
And that. And 'red wunz go fasta'. And the Waaagh! Actually, it's just the fungus thing that carbon copy. And actually, I was more worried about the cordyceps angle. But .. well, when Charisma pointed it out, it was startlingly obvious regardless =)
I was wondering 'will I have to explain why these aren't undead' when really I should have been wondering 'will Warhammer sick their cyper assassins slash legal teams on me.' Maybe and/or works better here?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You could also have trolls being used by other races. Remember the troll heavy weapons in the Lord of The Rings movies? There you have a group that doesn't need intelligence because they are directed, and lots of fun when they actually think a little and realize that they are just minions. Plus the cliche Troll under A Bridge is a more intelligent creature as it understand commerce and if a pay off/toll is worthy of not eating the person wanting to cross the bridge. There is nothing that says a troll can't think and ponder and gain some level of intelligence over time, even the most basic of animals does.
You could also have trolls being used by other races. Remember the troll heavy weapons in the Lord of The Rings movies? There you have a group that doesn't need intelligence because they are directed, and lots of fun when they actually think a little and realize that they are just minions. Plus the cliche Troll under A Bridge is a more intelligent creature as it understand commerce and if a pay off/toll is worthy of not eating the person wanting to cross the bridge. There is nothing that says a troll can't think and ponder and gain some level of intelligence over time, even the most basic of animals does.
I agree with all of these.
However, what I'm going for is something else: I feel that trolls as presented in the rules and books simply don't work. The trolls needn't feel bad about this - I'm notoriously difficult, and find most published material to be bad.
But there are two types of people in the world: Those who whine about stuff and contribute nothing further - and those who whine but try and do better. I suppose there's a theoretical third kind of people who simply don't complain.
Anyways, this is me essentially trying to explain how and why trolls exist at all as a species - because when I look at what we're given to work with, it doesn't seem like they'd make it very far. They'd be extinct after a few generations.
Anyways, using spore shedding trolls in armies of other races could be catastrophic - which might be fun. I have an old post here somewhere about using Troll Bombs - essentially um, liquefied and bottled trolls fired into besieged cities. Once the glass breaks, they regenerate and attack anything in sight. So ... that's gross. But yes, lots of uses for trolls =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Why should trolls go extinct? They're regenerators with at least tool-user intelligence; most lifeforms they would prey on or compete with for prey simply wouldn't be able to keep them down and they've got enough intelligence that collectively they'd work out the obvious warning signs for a settlement that could take them.
Why? Because I refuse to accept that they breed. That's why. As presented, trolls don't appear to me to have any interest in anything else - including other trolls. Also, they lack the necessary social structure to meet other trolls. No troll taverns.
So. Extinction. Individually tough, but they all lose eventually.
So my main point is that trolls are presented as a race without sufficient coherence to have any sort of positive population growth.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Yeah, that's more just a matter of the descriptions sticking to the most narratively relevant details. Unless you assume most beings in D&D don't have to pass waste.
Do you really want the Monster Manual to have extensive coverage of the mating habits of monsters?
Not necessarily. I don't want them to not have such things. Basically, I just want them to be better. And I think the creative crew at WoTC do a pretty crappy job for very much of the time.
It is entirely possible that I'm in a minority it's not worth investing in, but I like interesting monsters, I like lore and background, I like storytelling. I feel some official campaigns and adventures are propably pretty good - I've never bought one, but played in a few - but overall, all the worldbuilding is ... oh, I'm going to use the world intolerable. It's so crap.
And ... I'm not saying mine is any better, necessarily. But I do try. I honestly don't feel they do.
Yeah, that's more just a matter of the descriptions sticking to the most narratively relevant details. Unless you assume most beings in D&D don't have to pass waste.
There are no narratively relevant details:
Fearsome green-skinned giants, trolls eat anything they can catch and devour. Only acid and fire can arrest the regenerative properties of a troll’s flesh.
That's it. That is all you get. That is crap. Whether mine is any better is debatable, but there's quite simply no way for it to be any worse.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
How much narrative relevance would troll reproduction actually have?
Zero. But ... how much relevance does their language have? Their tool usage? How they live? What they eat? Whether they have songs, or make art? What exactly, outside straight up combat stats, has any real, concrete use?
But in terms of flavor, world building, lore - in terms of what captures the mind, draws you in, makes the world seem real and interesting and alien and exciting ... what could really be more interesting than how in the world do trolls somehow manage to keep existing? Because seriously, if there's one thing every other race should be able to agree with everyone else on, it's this: We don't like trolls.
Edit: I realise, on re-reading your post, that I overlooked the word 'narrative' in there. I stand by my post, despite being wildly off the mark =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I agree the 2024 MM is frustratingly short on details. Handily, there's a large body of existing lore on places like the D&D wiki you can draw from if you want to work from existing material, rather than working out these details for yourself.
Anyways, this is me essentially trying to explain how and why trolls exist at all as a species - because when I look at what we're given to work with, it doesn't seem like they'd make it very far. They'd be extinct after a few generations.
My usual explanation for trolls: they aren't a "species" at all, just lab experiments. A wizard plays around with regeneration/adaptation magic that goes wrong and a troll is the result. They don't reproduce or have a societal structure as a result, and what intelligence, language skills etc. they possess is just a remnant of whatever they were before being changed
When trolls show up in my homebrew campaign they rarely have "off the shelf" stat blocks, but instead have mutated to adapt to whatever environment they're in
Alternate explanation for trolls: they are intelligent and reproduce normally, but are incapable of forming societies or even having any kind of lasting relationships, because the same thing that causes their body to regenerate wounds also causes their brains to "regenerate" and erase their long-term memories. Basically, trolls are all Memento guy. They might show tactical cunning in a fight, but if you escape from them and come back the next day, they'll probably use exactly the same strategies because they won't remember they just fought you. If two trolls meet and get it on, they'll forget each other and wander off long before the baby troll is even born, and the mother will forget the child and leave it to fend for itself almost immediately
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My explanation is simply that their regeneration is so metabolically expensive that they don't have much energy left for significant thinking capability, and with their claws, fangs, and regenerative ability they don't really need it as they can simply smash into most threats and keep clawing at it until they win. And they reproduce asexually- when fighting, sometimes chunks will get torn off them. If a large-enough piece is left on its own long enough, eventually it will grow into a new troll.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That last is a thing in the 2024 version; not necessarily that it's how they reproduce, but if they take enough slashing damage in a turn they drop a limb, and if the limb isn't destroyed within 24 hours it has a 1 in 12 chance of becoming a whole troll; otherwise it just dies.
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So, I've been spending too much time thinking about trolls.
See, there's much about the troll that just doesn't work. See, trolls are (sorta) intelligent bipeds, but they're just not doing anything with it. In very real terms, they've got about as much going in as ... bears, or tigers. They're just predators. Barely even that, I figure they just hang about their lairs and eat anything too stupid to run away. No production, no agriculture, no society, no cooperation, no reason to have a language basically, no nothing.
So ... that's my baseline: Trolls don't work. As a race. They're not what they've been made out to be.
Also, they simply don't reproduce. Like, not only are they not going to go out and find a partner at the local barn dance - I reject the idea that they're gendered. They're all just 'troll'.
So. This needs fixing.
Trolls are vessels. Not creatures. It's why they are green, why their blood is green. They are saturated by a type of fungi that warps and animates them. Under the right circumstances, when someone dies to a troll, they will eventually rise as a new troll. Not like undead spawning undead, but a far more ... selective process. You have to die, you have to get the fungi into your bloodstream while still alive, and you need to fall in a suitably swampy environ. Then and only then can the fungi take hold, and grow, and warp/mutate/enlarge and eventually reanimate the corpse.
It explains much, when you think about it: The smell, the color, the lack of useful intellect, the complete absense of a social structure. Trolls are closer to undeath than to life. It's also why they regenerate: It's a basic component of their nature. The fungi itself, the animating agent, is unharmed by damage to the body, and the primary thing the fungi does for the body is to regenerate it - with certain limitations, such as definitely not bringing the original back to life, just work to repair the physical body.
As a side effect, the area around a troll lair will also gradually change and warp - fungi spreading from the troll, via ... well, whatever comes out of trolls. So an ever expanding biome of fungus infected wildlife and vegetation.
And again, this is why fire is important when hunting trolls. Sure, it stops the regeneration - but also, and perhaps actually more importantly, it burns away the spore so you don't just get another troll infestation in 6 months.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Greetings Acromos,
I really like Trolls as a monster and have ever since I was a child and was introduced to them in the golden age of 80s Fantasy Movies.
Within the D&D world, I really like that they have some flavor, including animated limbs that were severed. The first time I had the arm that was lopped off grab the ankle of a player as they were about to run really surprised the players I was with.
I am not sure if you were talking about Trolls in general of if you were specifically talking about Trolls in 5e.
Between the information in the 2014 and 2025 Monster Manuals, there is some decent info that can inspire lots of good ideas.
Then there is the Trolls from Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse; the Dire Troll, Rot Troll, Spirit Troll and the Venom Troll.
As far as reproducing, the 2014 MM states that Trolls are "Born with horrific appetites" indicating that they are indeed born.
The 2024 MM talks about how Trolls do cooperate in small groups, so I guess they can work together if the situation is right.
I love the Fungi angle you have presented as I am a fan of fungi and how it interacts with creatures.
I have played a few different Circle of Spores Druids, and am working on an Antagonist idea called the Rot-Father.
Would your Trolls generate Spores in any way?
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Well - short answer: Yes.
Slightly longer: The troll is not a mushroom, or a myconid, obviously, but it certainly generates spores. The fungi lives primarily in the blood of the troll, but get's into everything else to a lesser degree. If the troll ... 'goes to the toilet', it spreads spores. If it coughs or spits, it spreads spores.
In essence, think of it like cordyceps, maybe. Although without the actual zombie thing.
Trolls is one of the only (vaguely) intelligent species I don't feel like portraying as 'Society Builders'.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Oh my god, their Orks from Warhammer 40k. Big, green and mean, just without the insanity and more on the stupidity.
I guess that's fair. It's not 100% a rip-off, but I'm not blind to the .... glaring similarities =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
And without the psychic abilities.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And that. And 'red wunz go fasta'. And the Waaagh! Actually, it's just the fungus thing that carbon copy. And actually, I was more worried about the cordyceps angle. But .. well, when Charisma pointed it out, it was startlingly obvious regardless =)
I was wondering 'will I have to explain why these aren't undead' when really I should have been wondering 'will Warhammer sick their cyper assassins slash legal teams on me.' Maybe and/or works better here?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You could also have trolls being used by other races. Remember the troll heavy weapons in the Lord of The Rings movies? There you have a group that doesn't need intelligence because they are directed, and lots of fun when they actually think a little and realize that they are just minions. Plus the cliche Troll under A Bridge is a more intelligent creature as it understand commerce and if a pay off/toll is worthy of not eating the person wanting to cross the bridge. There is nothing that says a troll can't think and ponder and gain some level of intelligence over time, even the most basic of animals does.
I agree with all of these.
However, what I'm going for is something else: I feel that trolls as presented in the rules and books simply don't work. The trolls needn't feel bad about this - I'm notoriously difficult, and find most published material to be bad.
But there are two types of people in the world: Those who whine about stuff and contribute nothing further - and those who whine but try and do better. I suppose there's a theoretical third kind of people who simply don't complain.
Anyways, this is me essentially trying to explain how and why trolls exist at all as a species - because when I look at what we're given to work with, it doesn't seem like they'd make it very far. They'd be extinct after a few generations.
Anyways, using spore shedding trolls in armies of other races could be catastrophic - which might be fun. I have an old post here somewhere about using Troll Bombs - essentially um, liquefied and bottled trolls fired into besieged cities. Once the glass breaks, they regenerate and attack anything in sight. So ... that's gross. But yes, lots of uses for trolls =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Why should trolls go extinct? They're regenerators with at least tool-user intelligence; most lifeforms they would prey on or compete with for prey simply wouldn't be able to keep them down and they've got enough intelligence that collectively they'd work out the obvious warning signs for a settlement that could take them.
Why? Because I refuse to accept that they breed. That's why. As presented, trolls don't appear to me to have any interest in anything else - including other trolls. Also, they lack the necessary social structure to meet other trolls. No troll taverns.
So. Extinction. Individually tough, but they all lose eventually.
So my main point is that trolls are presented as a race without sufficient coherence to have any sort of positive population growth.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Do you really want the Monster Manual to have extensive coverage of the mating habits of monsters?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, that's more just a matter of the descriptions sticking to the most narratively relevant details. Unless you assume most beings in D&D don't have to pass waste.
Not necessarily. I don't want them to not have such things. Basically, I just want them to be better. And I think the creative crew at WoTC do a pretty crappy job for very much of the time.
It is entirely possible that I'm in a minority it's not worth investing in, but I like interesting monsters, I like lore and background, I like storytelling. I feel some official campaigns and adventures are propably pretty good - I've never bought one, but played in a few - but overall, all the worldbuilding is ... oh, I'm going to use the world intolerable. It's so crap.
And ... I'm not saying mine is any better, necessarily. But I do try. I honestly don't feel they do.
There are no narratively relevant details:
That's it. That is all you get. That is crap. Whether mine is any better is debatable, but there's quite simply no way for it to be any worse.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
How much narrative relevance would troll reproduction actually have?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Zero. But ... how much relevance does their language have? Their tool usage? How they live? What they eat? Whether they have songs, or make art? What exactly, outside straight up combat stats, has any real, concrete use?
But in terms of flavor, world building, lore - in terms of what captures the mind, draws you in, makes the world seem real and interesting and alien and exciting ... what could really be more interesting than how in the world do trolls somehow manage to keep existing? Because seriously, if there's one thing every other race should be able to agree with everyone else on, it's this: We don't like trolls.
Edit: I realise, on re-reading your post, that I overlooked the word 'narrative' in there. I stand by my post, despite being wildly off the mark =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I agree the 2024 MM is frustratingly short on details. Handily, there's a large body of existing lore on places like the D&D wiki you can draw from if you want to work from existing material, rather than working out these details for yourself.
My usual explanation for trolls: they aren't a "species" at all, just lab experiments. A wizard plays around with regeneration/adaptation magic that goes wrong and a troll is the result. They don't reproduce or have a societal structure as a result, and what intelligence, language skills etc. they possess is just a remnant of whatever they were before being changed
When trolls show up in my homebrew campaign they rarely have "off the shelf" stat blocks, but instead have mutated to adapt to whatever environment they're in
Alternate explanation for trolls: they are intelligent and reproduce normally, but are incapable of forming societies or even having any kind of lasting relationships, because the same thing that causes their body to regenerate wounds also causes their brains to "regenerate" and erase their long-term memories. Basically, trolls are all Memento guy. They might show tactical cunning in a fight, but if you escape from them and come back the next day, they'll probably use exactly the same strategies because they won't remember they just fought you. If two trolls meet and get it on, they'll forget each other and wander off long before the baby troll is even born, and the mother will forget the child and leave it to fend for itself almost immediately
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My explanation is simply that their regeneration is so metabolically expensive that they don't have much energy left for significant thinking capability, and with their claws, fangs, and regenerative ability they don't really need it as they can simply smash into most threats and keep clawing at it until they win. And they reproduce asexually- when fighting, sometimes chunks will get torn off them. If a large-enough piece is left on its own long enough, eventually it will grow into a new troll.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That last is a thing in the 2024 version; not necessarily that it's how they reproduce, but if they take enough slashing damage in a turn they drop a limb, and if the limb isn't destroyed within 24 hours it has a 1 in 12 chance of becoming a whole troll; otherwise it just dies.