Delving into the history and background of Dungeons & Dragons has been a growing phenomenon for several years now, with a lot of good work being done by those trying to get the firsthand accounts of those who created our hobby before the last of them pass away. With the loss of both Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson as well as others like the artists David A. Trampier, Jim Holloway and now all-around D&D Renaissance Man Len Lakofka (both Holloway and Lakofka passed away this year) time is growing short for getting these early voices that built and molded our hobby.
For those that remember S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, a few years back someone managed to put out for the community an actual tournament copy of the original: The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth (note the alternate spelling) which was the tournament module for WinterCon V in 1976. Some interesting tidbits were discovered: Iggwilv was originally a man who was flat out killed in a fight with Grazzt, that Iggwilv had brought considerable riches from the Marches of Perrunland toThe Lost Caverns of Tsojconth which were located in the no-man's land between the Duchy of Geoff and The Sea of Dust. Of course, the published version put The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth all the way up in the Yatil Mountains, incidentally not too far from The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, within the territories claimed/patrolled by Perrenland and Ket (and thus far from The Duchy of Geoff and The Sea of Dust). And old Iggy became an Evil Demigoddess/Lesser Goddess, Mother of Witches, known as Wilva to her friends and Louhi on Earth. And according to Tenser, she ain't dead....which is born out by the fact she is behind the plot to keep The Crook of Rao from being brought out of The Isle of the Ape's demiplane.
Rob Kuntz, Gary Gygax's co-DM from the earliest days and the player of the redoubtable Lord Robilar, apparently was the person who basically designed the original map for The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth for his Castle El Raja Key (which he has released a great deal of information about in the last few years). It was consolidated with Gary's original version of the Castle Greyhawk megadungeon! Much like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, DungeonLand/The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror and Isle of the Ape, the Greater Caverns of Tsojcanth was actually a level from the second version of Castle Greyhawk! Of course, this went through several evolutions (ERK/CG first, then Lost Tsojconth tournament and then Lost Tsojcanth published module).
To make sense of all this, thankfully, someone managed to produce an actual copy of the original Domesday Map of the Great Kingdom & Environs (the prototype for the eventual published World of Greyhawk where The Castles & Crusades society members had their individual campaigns, much like Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, Gary Gygax's Walworth and Greyhawk as well as Dave Perrin's home campaign in Perrunland). If you've ever read (or plan to get a hold of and read) the very first D&D novel, Quag Keep by Andre Norton, you'll notice a lot of familiar names such as Keoland, Blackmoor, the Sea of Dust, etc.....and then a lot of other stuff that isn't Greyhawk...but sounds like stuff from Greyhawk.
Anyway, this is just a fun little set of factoids about how The World of Greyhawk evolved from the prepublished stage to the finished product (at least some of) us love and cherish. I'd like to touch on something I think should actually be given more weight (especially now) considering Greyhawk (and my belief that since Gygax was ousted, the IP holders have done a poor job, to say the least, of Greyhawk's lore). Sure, "Death of the Author" and all that, but I think Greyhawk is the kind of setting that needs a more hands-off approach (or at least a more well researched approach) to its lore. Retcons make for bad designs, especially for what should be sandbox settings where every square inch of land ISN'T mapped out and there is plenty of space for unexplored wilderness. Anyone who thought placing The Keep on the Borderlands (for the 25th Anniversary of D&D) in The Yeomanry made absolutely zero sense isn't alone. Gygax said it should be placed on the borders of The Principality of Ulek, The Pomarj and The Suss Forest, along The Jewel River. That fits perfectly, given the region's historywith The Hateful Wars and the fact bands of humanoids (Orks, Gnolls, Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears) were driven out of The Lortmil Mountains and down into The Pomarj.
So, anyway, getting back to the point, who is Tsojcanth.....
Thus spake Gygax:
I imagined him as one of the exceptionally potent magic-wielders who arise amongst humans every so often. I considered him the channel used by the Good deities for the further abridgement of the actual Tharizdun, as it were. Tsojcanth and a circle of other mages of good alignment, and certainly others of like persuasion and other capacities, assailed and defeated the followers of the avatar Tharizdun, and then by sympathetic means, and empowered by deital power, Tsojcanth (and his associated mages lending their power to him so as he could survive channeling of deital energies) forced the avatar Tharizdun to rejoin its parent entity.
I did not identify Tsojcanth as to race, but I think he was more likely Flan or Oeridian than a Suloise. He was certainly human and of Good alignment.
That's a major difference from stuff published by WotC (mostly for 3E). Tsojcanth was not a demon, nor an evil Wizard. The thing beneath The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (which, remember, is nearby in The Yatils to The Lost Caverns) was/is an Avatar of Tharizdun. Gygax also speculated that Tsojcanth and his fellow mages did this a LONG time ago, like around the same time as The Invoked Devastation and The Rain of Colorless Fire (both of which may have been precipitated by the Avatar of Tharizdun to wreak as much havoc as possible by giving Suel and Baklunish Wizards access to forbidden, nigh world-ending, magic). Tharizdun had nothing whatsoever to with The Elder Elemental God, Vilp-akf ’cho Rentaq (say that 10 times really fast if you can....what a mouthful!) according to Gygax. Oh yea, and the EEG looks like a gigantic purple squid-like thing with ten hairy tentacles (ick!).
Anyway, this is just some great Greyhawk lore for those that don't follow it and would like some more stuff to spice up their home campaign, aka the Alternate Oerths as Gygax called it. Or for those (like me) who are interested in information on the earliest days of our hobby.
Interesting. So in the one module, Iggwilv goes from being a man to a woman? I'm not really following that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Interesting. So in the one module, Iggwilv goes from being a man to a woman? I'm not really following that.
No, in the tournament version, Iggwilv was just a male Archmage. He's already dead several decades at the hands of Graz'zt. The later S4 published version is for The World of Greyhawk instead of being for The Castles & Crusades Society's Map of the Great Kingdom & Environs, there were several changes made, including the placement of The Lost Caverns to The Yatils, Iggwilv became a woman and MUCH more powerful (dual-classed Archmage/Cleric of at least 16th lvl and at least a demigoddess in rank) and Tsojconth was changed to Tsojcanth. A few more changes were made such as making the Vampiress boss into Drelnza, Iggwilv's daughter, adding The Demonomicon of Iggwilv to the treasure hoard (since the tournament module was just about recovering Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn), among other things. And, of course, the change from OD&D to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1E. Interestingly, the tournament version was already using some rules that would appear in AD&D such as races and classes being separate. And, of course, the 9th lvl thief was still a Hobbit instead of a Halfling (this being before Tolkien Enterprises sued TSR for use unauthorized of their IP in Dungeons & Dragons like Hobbits, Ents, Nazgul and Balrogs).
Thanks, that's clear now. Seems like there was a lot of ret-conning happening between modules.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Thanks, that's clear now. Seems like there was a lot of ret-conning happening between modules.
Its not necessarily a retcon. There IS a difference between the C&CS campaign and The World of Greyhawk. One could better think of it as Iggwilv is a man in the C&CS version of D&D while Iggwilv is a woman in AD&D's The World of Greyhawk. Its the whole Gygaxian "Infinite Oerths", since there will ALWAYS be differences between campaigns. Its the reason why its supposed to be a sandbox and why a lot of us dislike the non-Gygaxian Greyhawk because its more "top-down" and thus less flexible than what Gary created.
That's no different from Ed Greenwood's YOUR realms, and I dislike it there too. the whole argument "it's not a retcon, because it's a difference instance" of the setting just irks me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
That's no different from Ed Greenwood's YOUR realms, and I dislike it there too. the whole argument "it's not a retcon, because it's a difference instance" of the setting just irks me.
Well, in this instance there are different nations in the C&CS Campaign World to The World of Greyhawk. For example: The Neron March became The Gran March. The Kingdom of Blackmoor became The Archbarony of Blackmoor (and moved drastically on the map, as the area that was Blackmoor in the C&CS Map became Ratik on Oerth), The Kingdom of Faraaz and the County of Yerocundy became the Kingdom of Furyondy and the Archclericy of Veluna, the Kingdom of Catmelun became the Kingdom of Nyrond, and so on and so forth. And there is a significant difference in the map as the Flanaess looks very different overall than the the C&CS Map, though you can see the "DNA" of the Flanaess came from the latter. And, of course, the C&CS Map was not an official campaign setting (per se) since OD&D's "official" setting was Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival Board.
Okay, now that I have you good and confused....
Delving into the history and background of Dungeons & Dragons has been a growing phenomenon for several years now, with a lot of good work being done by those trying to get the firsthand accounts of those who created our hobby before the last of them pass away. With the loss of both Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson as well as others like the artists David A. Trampier, Jim Holloway and now all-around D&D Renaissance Man Len Lakofka (both Holloway and Lakofka passed away this year) time is growing short for getting these early voices that built and molded our hobby.
For those that remember S4: The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, a few years back someone managed to put out for the community an actual tournament copy of the original: The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth (note the alternate spelling) which was the tournament module for WinterCon V in 1976. Some interesting tidbits were discovered: Iggwilv was originally a man who was flat out killed in a fight with Grazzt, that Iggwilv had brought considerable riches from the Marches of Perrunland toThe Lost Caverns of Tsojconth which were located in the no-man's land between the Duchy of Geoff and The Sea of Dust. Of course, the published version put The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth all the way up in the Yatil Mountains, incidentally not too far from The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, within the territories claimed/patrolled by Perrenland and Ket (and thus far from The Duchy of Geoff and The Sea of Dust). And old Iggy became an Evil Demigoddess/Lesser Goddess, Mother of Witches, known as Wilva to her friends and Louhi on Earth. And according to Tenser, she ain't dead....which is born out by the fact she is behind the plot to keep The Crook of Rao from being brought out of The Isle of the Ape's demiplane.
Rob Kuntz, Gary Gygax's co-DM from the earliest days and the player of the redoubtable Lord Robilar, apparently was the person who basically designed the original map for The Lost Caverns of Tsojconth for his Castle El Raja Key (which he has released a great deal of information about in the last few years). It was consolidated with Gary's original version of the Castle Greyhawk megadungeon! Much like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, DungeonLand/The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror and Isle of the Ape, the Greater Caverns of Tsojcanth was actually a level from the second version of Castle Greyhawk! Of course, this went through several evolutions (ERK/CG first, then Lost Tsojconth tournament and then Lost Tsojcanth published module).
To make sense of all this, thankfully, someone managed to produce an actual copy of the original Domesday Map of the Great Kingdom & Environs (the prototype for the eventual published World of Greyhawk where The Castles & Crusades society members had their individual campaigns, much like Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, Gary Gygax's Walworth and Greyhawk as well as Dave Perrin's home campaign in Perrunland). If you've ever read (or plan to get a hold of and read) the very first D&D novel, Quag Keep by Andre Norton, you'll notice a lot of familiar names such as Keoland, Blackmoor, the Sea of Dust, etc.....and then a lot of other stuff that isn't Greyhawk...but sounds like stuff from Greyhawk.
Anyway, this is just a fun little set of factoids about how The World of Greyhawk evolved from the prepublished stage to the finished product (at least some of) us love and cherish. I'd like to touch on something I think should actually be given more weight (especially now) considering Greyhawk (and my belief that since Gygax was ousted, the IP holders have done a poor job, to say the least, of Greyhawk's lore). Sure, "Death of the Author" and all that, but I think Greyhawk is the kind of setting that needs a more hands-off approach (or at least a more well researched approach) to its lore. Retcons make for bad designs, especially for what should be sandbox settings where every square inch of land ISN'T mapped out and there is plenty of space for unexplored wilderness. Anyone who thought placing The Keep on the Borderlands (for the 25th Anniversary of D&D) in The Yeomanry made absolutely zero sense isn't alone. Gygax said it should be placed on the borders of The Principality of Ulek, The Pomarj and The Suss Forest, along The Jewel River. That fits perfectly, given the region's historywith The Hateful Wars and the fact bands of humanoids (Orks, Gnolls, Goblins, Hobgoblins and Bugbears) were driven out of The Lortmil Mountains and down into The Pomarj.
So, anyway, getting back to the point, who is Tsojcanth.....
Thus spake Gygax:
That's a major difference from stuff published by WotC (mostly for 3E). Tsojcanth was not a demon, nor an evil Wizard. The thing beneath The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (which, remember, is nearby in The Yatils to The Lost Caverns) was/is an Avatar of Tharizdun. Gygax also speculated that Tsojcanth and his fellow mages did this a LONG time ago, like around the same time as The Invoked Devastation and The Rain of Colorless Fire (both of which may have been precipitated by the Avatar of Tharizdun to wreak as much havoc as possible by giving Suel and Baklunish Wizards access to forbidden, nigh world-ending, magic). Tharizdun had nothing whatsoever to with The Elder Elemental God, Vilp-akf ’cho Rentaq (say that 10 times really fast if you can....what a mouthful!) according to Gygax. Oh yea, and the EEG looks like a gigantic purple squid-like thing with ten hairy tentacles (ick!).
Anyway, this is just some great Greyhawk lore for those that don't follow it and would like some more stuff to spice up their home campaign, aka the Alternate Oerths as Gygax called it. Or for those (like me) who are interested in information on the earliest days of our hobby.
Interesting. So in the one module, Iggwilv goes from being a man to a woman? I'm not really following that.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
No, in the tournament version, Iggwilv was just a male Archmage. He's already dead several decades at the hands of Graz'zt. The later S4 published version is for The World of Greyhawk instead of being for The Castles & Crusades Society's Map of the Great Kingdom & Environs, there were several changes made, including the placement of The Lost Caverns to The Yatils, Iggwilv became a woman and MUCH more powerful (dual-classed Archmage/Cleric of at least 16th lvl and at least a demigoddess in rank) and Tsojconth was changed to Tsojcanth. A few more changes were made such as making the Vampiress boss into Drelnza, Iggwilv's daughter, adding The Demonomicon of Iggwilv to the treasure hoard (since the tournament module was just about recovering Daoud's Wondrous Lanthorn), among other things. And, of course, the change from OD&D to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1E. Interestingly, the tournament version was already using some rules that would appear in AD&D such as races and classes being separate. And, of course, the 9th lvl thief was still a Hobbit instead of a Halfling (this being before Tolkien Enterprises sued TSR for use unauthorized of their IP in Dungeons & Dragons like Hobbits, Ents, Nazgul and Balrogs).
Thanks, that's clear now. Seems like there was a lot of ret-conning happening between modules.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Its not necessarily a retcon. There IS a difference between the C&CS campaign and The World of Greyhawk. One could better think of it as Iggwilv is a man in the C&CS version of D&D while Iggwilv is a woman in AD&D's The World of Greyhawk. Its the whole Gygaxian "Infinite Oerths", since there will ALWAYS be differences between campaigns. Its the reason why its supposed to be a sandbox and why a lot of us dislike the non-Gygaxian Greyhawk because its more "top-down" and thus less flexible than what Gary created.
That's no different from Ed Greenwood's YOUR realms, and I dislike it there too. the whole argument "it's not a retcon, because it's a difference instance" of the setting just irks me.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well, in this instance there are different nations in the C&CS Campaign World to The World of Greyhawk. For example: The Neron March became The Gran March. The Kingdom of Blackmoor became The Archbarony of Blackmoor (and moved drastically on the map, as the area that was Blackmoor in the C&CS Map became Ratik on Oerth), The Kingdom of Faraaz and the County of Yerocundy became the Kingdom of Furyondy and the Archclericy of Veluna, the Kingdom of Catmelun became the Kingdom of Nyrond, and so on and so forth. And there is a significant difference in the map as the Flanaess looks very different overall than the the C&CS Map, though you can see the "DNA" of the Flanaess came from the latter. And, of course, the C&CS Map was not an official campaign setting (per se) since OD&D's "official" setting was Avalon Hill's Outdoor Survival Board.
Fascinating. Idk any of this. Thank you.