I am currently playing in a campaign as a level 6 Life Cleric, a Hill Dwarf. In-story, I received a debuff aura around myself for our most likely enemies, fiends (in exchange for my life at the end of our mission/maybe at DMs discretion when his story is over).
I had been considering ways to spice up my Cleric, already. I was thinking about taking the magic initiate feat at level 8, taking druid for goodberry and perhaps shillelagh. Now, I don't know.
With this new aura (and for in-game reasons), I think I want to begin focusing more on melee fighting, in addition to healing/buffing. I have, use, and love inflict wounds. Maybe even pick up a proficiency with martial weapons somehow, idk. Any ideas on how to increase a Life cleric's melee usefulness? Any idea is welcome (multiclassing, feats, spells, anything).
being a dwarf you already have proficiency with battleaxe, handaxe, light hammer, and warhammer. Cleric gives you all simple weapons which overslaps slightly.
tashas gives the blessed strikes ability, which would replace your divine strike feature. It would allow you to add 1d8 radiant damage to a weapon attack or a cantrip once per round. It’s a bit more versatile and wouldn’t make magic initiate a priority, though it could still benefit from any cantrip chosen. If your wisdom is high but you have a low dexterity and strength score, consider primal savagery. It would be dealing 2d10+1d8 with blessed strike at your level, which is 1 average damage less than a level 1 inflict wounds. It scales up to 4d10+1d8 with blessed strike.
if you find yourself surrounded by creatures with your aura and spirit guardians up, word of radiance could be effective. Since all the affected creatures roll their save at once, the 1d8 from blessed strikes would multiple creatures that fail their save with 2d6+1d8.
I would consider Magic Initiate for Booming Blade and Find Familiar. Booming Blade will add considerable damage to your melee attacks and continue to scale as you level up, and also help deter creatures from moving away from you and attacking allies since they'll take even more damage. An owl familiar will also increase your melee accuracy substantially because it can fly in, perform the help action to grant you advantage on your next attack, then fly away without provoking opportunity attacks.
Later on if you want to increase your chances of Booming Blade's secondary damage triggering, you can take the Crusher feat to create some distance so that the creature will need to move if they want to attack, or move them off an ally so your allies can move away from the creature without provoking opportunity attacks.
As a life cleric, you already have heavy armor and shields. As a hill dwarf, you already have good HP (and battleaxes, which as I discuss below, doesn't really matter). As a cleric, you already have high Constitution. So.... how are you not already a melee character, just because you aren't making melee weapon attacks? TLDR: don't try to turn the ship around and become a striker, just lean more into being "tanky" so that you can stand in the front line and cast spells.
1. Why Melee Weapon DPR Is Not For You
There's a few elements to melee DPR: (1) having a good attack stat for melee attacks, (2) having more than one attack, and (3) adding bonus damage to those attacks.
To start with (3), you're only two levels away from Divine Strike/Blessed Strikes, depending on which version you'll be using. Either is a perfectly decent d8 to a weapon attack, or BS can be used for a cantrip as well... but either way, these aren't for spell attacks like Inflict Wounds. Adding a single d8 to an attack, plus your ability score modifier as usual, is... not really going to win you any DPR awards even if you had multiple attacks per round, but with only one attack, it's clearly not enough. If you were able to also add something like Booming Blade to the attack, hey, that's even more d8's! But d8+5+d8+[1d8-2d8] still isn't much to write home about, something like average 20.
So really, I'm going to stop you there. Even if you get a way to attack with Wisdom using Shillelagh, building to spend your turns doing a single attack for an average 20 isn't a useful use of your turns. Lets say you even also took the time to cast Spirit Shroud... d8+5+d8+d8+d8 looks pretty good! But it's still just 25 damage per round.... and something as simple as throwing up a Spirit Guardians is probably likely to do as much or more even without considering your action. So .... just quit chasing melee DPR as a sidejob, you don't need to be swinging weapons.
2. Thiccness
But as I started with... you're already a great melee character, because you have high AC, high con, and an aura to drag around with you. You've enjoyed casting Inflict Wounds so far... why not continue to do so? Spirit Guardians is a meat grinder, and the best way to optimize its damage, is to optimize (1) tankiness to move and stand wherever you want in battle, and (2) Concentration saving throws. Even when you run low on 3rd level spell slots for it... Spiritual Weapon is there to hold your hand.
Your AC is probably already 20, in Plate and a Shield. You Con is already probably 16+, and you've got extra Hill Dwarf HP as well. So what are you missing right now to be a slab of concentration muscle? Resilient (Constitution) or Warcaster, that's probably it. If your Con score is an odd number right now, take Resilient. If it isn't, take Warcaster, which is also more fun in that it will let you start being an Opportunity Attack menace to enemies that try to flee your meat grinder.
Beyond 8, other feats that build towards this? After both Resilient and Warcaster, don't sleep on Tough (slab gets slabbier), Lucky (concentration save emergency), Shield Master (better Dex saves and Evasion, even though you won't be using the shove), or Chef (a final +1 Con if Resilient left you odd, and the party will appreciate having pocket cakes).
Other than casting Spirit Guardians (or Spiritual Weapon in a pinch) and keeping Concentration up... what else is there for you to do while hanging in melee? Why, Sacred Flame of course! No, it isn't just a spell for backliners, because as a save-based spell rather than an attack spell, there's no reason you can't cast it in melee as well with no penalties! If you take the Blessed Strikes feature at 8 (which you should), then you'll be adding a bonus d8 on this, 3d8 at level 8, 4d8 at 11. Average 13, on top of that lovely 3d8+ area-effect meat grinder you're carrying around.... is as good or better DPR as you'd accomplish trying to turn the ship around for melee weapon attacks. Or, continue casting Inflict Wounds if you'd like, why not! The point is, anything you do with your action while keeping up Spirit Guardians is a cherry on top.
As a life cleric, you already have heavy armor and shields. As a hill dwarf, you already have good HP (and battleaxes, which as I discuss below, doesn't really matter). As a cleric, you already have high Constitution. So.... how are you not already a melee character, just because you aren't making melee weapon attacks? TLDR: don't try to turn the ship around and become a striker, just lean more into being "tanky" so that you can stand in the front line and cast spells.
1. Why Melee Weapon DPR Is Not For You
There's a few elements to melee DPR: (1) having a good attack stat for melee attacks, (2) having more than one attack, and (3) adding bonus damage to those attacks.
To start with (3), you're only two levels away from Divine Strike/Blessed Strikes, depending on which version you'll be using. Either is a perfectly decent d8 to a weapon attack, or BS can be used for a cantrip as well... but either way, these aren't for spell attacks like Inflict Wounds. Adding a single d8 to an attack, plus your ability score modifier as usual, is... not really going to win you any DPR awards even if you had multiple attacks per round, but with only one attack, it's clearly not enough. If you were able to also add something like Booming Blade to the attack, hey, that's even more d8's! But d8+5+d8+[1d8-2d8] still isn't much to write home about, something like average 20.
So really, I'm going to stop you there. Even if you get a way to attack with Wisdom using Shillelagh, building to spend your turns doing a single attack for an average 20 isn't a useful use of your turns. Lets say you even also took the time to cast Spirit Shroud... d8+5+d8+d8+d8 looks pretty good! But it's still just 25 damage per round.... and something as simple as throwing up a Spirit Guardians is probably likely to do as much or more even without considering your action. So .... just quit chasing melee DPR as a sidejob, you don't need to be swinging weapons.
2. Thiccness
But as I started with... you're already a great melee character, because you have high AC, high con, and an aura to drag around with you. You've enjoyed casting Inflict Wounds so far... why not continue to do so? Spirit Guardians is a meat grinder, and the best way to optimize its damage, is to optimize (1) tankiness to move and stand wherever you want in battle, and (2) Concentration saving throws. Even when you run low on 3rd level spell slots for it... Spiritual Weapon is there to hold your hand.
Your AC is probably already 20, in Plate and a Shield. You Con is already probably 16+, and you've got extra Hill Dwarf HP as well. So what are you missing right now to be a slab of concentration muscle? Resilient (Constitution) or Warcaster, that's probably it. If your Con score is an odd number right now, take Resilient. If it isn't, take Warcaster, which is also more fun in that it will let you start being an Opportunity Attack menace to enemies that try to flee your meat grinder.
Beyond 8, other feats that build towards this? After both Resilient and Warcaster, don't sleep on Tough (slab gets slabbier), Lucky (concentration save emergency), Shield Master (better Dex saves and Evasion, even though you won't be using the shove), or Chef (a final +1 Con if Resilient left you odd, and the party will appreciate having pocket cakes).
Other than casting Spirit Guardians (or Spiritual Weapon in a pinch) and keeping Concentration up... what else is there for you to do while hanging in melee? Why, Sacred Flame of course! No, it isn't just a spell for backliners, because as a save-based spell rather than an attack spell, there's no reason you can't cast it in melee as well with no penalties! If you take the Blessed Strikes feature at 8 (which you should), then you'll be adding a bonus d8 on this, 3d8 at level 8, 4d8 at 11. Average 13, on top of that lovely 3d8+ area-effect meat grinder you're carrying around.... is as good or better DPR as you'd accomplish trying to turn the ship around for melee weapon attacks. Or, continue casting Inflict Wounds if you'd like, why not! The point is, anything you do with your action while keeping up Spirit Guardians is a cherry on top.
Spirit Guardians is the way to go here for melee range anyway and since you have to be fairly close you might as well pick up something like Booming Blade from Wizard Initiate.
Assuming you have the STR for Plate anyway you can compare damage:
5th level: Sacred Flame: 2d8 (save or suck) = 9 average DPR
Boomer Blade: 2d8 + DEX/STR and additional 2d8 if they move. = 12 DPR with potential for 21 DPR if they move.
Once you get to Divine Strike at 8th level:
Sacred Flame: 3d8 (13.5)
Boomer Blade: 3d8+ STR (16.5) with potential for 25.5 if they move.
In either case you will have Spiritual Guardians up and since its a save for half spell you don't have to worry too much about maxing WIS if you do not want to.
You could also go War Caster route and wade in so that you can then attack with BB when they try to leave and they take more damage and proc more boom.
...Assuming you have the STR for Plate anyway you can compare damage:...
They're a dwarf, they don't need any strength for heavy armor at all, so why would it be any higher than 8?
It's not that Spirit Guardians doesn't help the melee weapon attack cleric just as much as the caster cleric.... it's that the melee weapon attack cleric has several feats and multiclass requirements to get to the point where they can make a competent melee attack. They need to take a feat or MC for Shillelagh, and a second feat or MC for Booming Blade, and in the meantime they are putting off getting +2 Wisdom, Warcaster, or Resilient (Con).
It's not realistic, and all you get is... a single crappy melee attack, while putting off the benefits that would have made your Spirit Guardians more reliable.
I am currently playing in a campaign as a level 6 Life Cleric, a Hill Dwarf. In-story, I received a debuff aura around myself for our most likely enemies, fiends (in exchange for my life at the end of our mission/maybe at DMs discretion when his story is over).
I had been considering ways to spice up my Cleric, already. I was thinking about taking the magic initiate feat at level 8, taking druid for goodberry and perhaps shillelagh. Now, I don't know.
With this new aura (and for in-game reasons), I think I want to begin focusing more on melee fighting, in addition to healing/buffing. I have, use, and love inflict wounds. Maybe even pick up a proficiency with martial weapons somehow, idk. Any ideas on how to increase a Life cleric's melee usefulness? Any idea is welcome (multiclassing, feats, spells, anything).
Morgorin, I'm not sure you are at a level where it would make sense to switch gears to melee. If you have the STR and CHA a couple of levels of paladin might be worthwhile but I wouldn't think something small from magic initiate would impact your melee greater than Spirit Guardians or similar spells. Life cleric is the essential 'stand there and take it while buffing everyone' stereotype. 5e rewards that kind of specialization and moving away from it is just fighting the system.
Now, I am not a huge fan of the cleric spell list past level 13. There are only eight spells most of which are pretty circumstantial. That is not a bad time to multiclass out of cleric if you have the stats for it. I like paladin or bard but if you don't have the stats then I could see echo knight being an interesting choice.
Really, in your case I would recommend you stick with straight cleric and maybe ask your DM if he is willing to let you tweak your build or change domains to allow for a more melee focus.
...Assuming you have the STR for Plate anyway you can compare damage:...
They're a dwarf, they don't need any strength for heavy armor at all, so why would it be any higher than 8?
It's not that Spirit Guardians doesn't help the melee weapon attack cleric just as much as the caster cleric.... it's that the melee weapon attack cleric has several feats and multiclass requirements to get to the point where they can make a competent melee attack. They need to take a feat or MC for Shillelagh, and a second feat or MC for Booming Blade, and in the meantime they are putting off getting +2 Wisdom, Warcaster, or Resilient (Con).
It's not realistic, and all you get is... a single crappy melee attack, while putting off the benefits that would have made your Spirit Guardians more reliable.
Funny how that melee attack is better than using the cantrip you keep touting? Even if their STR was 10 it would be better as you have the potential for the extra boom damage if they move...
Also you have no idea if they dumped STR so its moot overall.
Also if they dumped STR just use a Dagger? Its 1 point less damage than a mace....
If they dumped DEX and STR....I am not sure as that is not something anyone should do.
I don't understand why you would think that the dwarven cleric would have a high dexterity either? I'll grant, either their Dex or their Strength is probably at 14 with the other at 10 if they did a typical point buy start, but...
Let's break this down at 6 (current situation), 8 (their next feat), and 12 (two feats and next tier)
Current Level 6
Let's give this cleric the benefit of the doubt that they have 14 Strength (even though they didn't need it), having started with a point buy stat spread of something like 14/10/16/8/17/8, and having done something at Cleric 4 to give them 18 Wisdom. Starting 10 Strength 14 Dex would have probably been smarter, but the default dwarven Battleaxe proficiency and general dwarfiness makes me assume Strength.
Their Attack action has one melee weapon attack currently, which is at a +5 to hit (two or three lower than a conventional melee weapon attacker at this level), and deals 1d8+2 damage. Against an AC 10 enemy that's (very roughly rounded) 5.5 DPR, AC 15 that's 4, or AC 20 about 2.
Or, they could be casting 2d8 Sacred Flame with a DC of 15. Against an enemy with a +0 save bonus that's 6.5, +4 bonus that 4.5, or +8 bonus that's about 3. Currently, using their action for Sacred Flame is more DPR than attacking with the axe.
Either way, they're also walking around with a Spirit Guardians aura up, which does 11.5/10/8.5 average damage per target in the aura, depending on enemies' save bonus.
Level 8
Level 8 is time for Blessed Strikes, a nice d8 on either weapon attacks or cantrips.
Let's say that at 8 they take a feat to pick up Booming Blade, adding 1d8 more thunder damage on that attack (1d8 axe, 1d8 Blessed Strikes, 1d8 BB, +2 Str). AC 10 that's 13 DPR, AC 15 that's 9, or AC 20 that's 5.5. Plus their same 11.5/10/8.5 aura based on a 3d8 Spirit Guardians save..
Let's say at 8 they instead take a feat to pick up Shillelagh for a Wisdom-based attack with their 18 Wis. (1d8 club, 1d8 BS, +4 Wis) AC 10 that's 12 DPR, AC 15 that's 9, or AC 20 that's 5.5. Plus their 11.5/10/8.5 Spirit Guardians aura.
Or, they take a +2 Wisdom ASI and continue casting Sacred Flame! Against an enemy with a +0 save bonus that's 10, +4 bonus that 7.5, or +8 bonus that's about 5. Plus, a 12/10.5/9 Spirit Guardians aura.
So Shillelagh or Booming Blade pull ahead on DPR a very little bit (though BB will be very swingy, only about a 50% hit chance against very standard ACs). Was that worth not increasing your primary casting stat to 20 by level 8 like every caster should? Conventional build wisdom would say "no."
Level 12
Let's say at 8 they took an option for Booming Blade, and now they're taking an option for Shillelagh to attack with their 18 Wisdom instead of their 14 Strength. With their Blessed Strikes d8, and their Booming Blade freshly ranked up, they're now doing d8 club, +d8 BS, +2d8 BB, +4 with a +8 to hit bonus. AC 10 that's 22, AC 15 that's 16.5, AC 20 that's 11. And a 12/10.5/9 Spirit Guardians aura based on 18 wisdom, which you may or may not keep up (DC 10 70%/DC 15 45%/DC 20 20% pass).
The version that took 20 wisdom at 8 has gotten a tier upgrade to Sacred Flame as well, and now casts for 3d8, +d8 BS, save for nothing. Against a +0 bonus that's 16, +4 is 14.5, +8 is 12.5. Spirit Guardians is up to 12/11/9.5 due to 20 wisdom. But, this version has now also taken Warcaster (DC 10 91%/DC 15 70%/DC 20 64% pass) or Resilient (DC 10 90%/DC 15 65%/DC 20 40% pass), meaning that Spirit Guardians is much more likely to stay up for more rounds, spending fewer slots and dealing more damage to the board.
I'm not going to do more math further into the future, but the long and short of it is... I'd much rather be the 20 Wisdom cleric with Warcaster when I hit T3, then the 18 Wisdom cleric with two different feats into Shillelagh and Booming Blade, who's now locked into making melee-range attacks instead of being flexible to Sacred Flame high value targets from a distance (and even as an OA!). There just isn't enough extra damage to be found to justify investing so much investment in the melee attacks, because it means ignoring improving your save DC and playing to your party role's strength for two feats in a row, all to be.... still very mediocre at putting out single-target DPR? Your party will not be impressed that you've managed to squeeze out 4 or 5 extra damage per axe/club swing vs. casting Sacred Flame, for all the distraction.
I don't understand why you would think that the dwarven cleric would have a high dexterity either? I'll grant, either their Dex or their Strength is probably at 14 with the other at 10 if they did a typical point buy start, but...
Let's break this down at 6 (current situation), 8 (their next feat), and 12 (two feats and next tier)
Current Level 6
Let's give this cleric the benefit of the doubt that they have 14 Strength (even though they didn't need it), having started with a point buy stat spread of something like 14/10/16/8/17/8, and having done something at Cleric 4 to give them 18 Wisdom. Starting 10 Strength 14 Dex would have probably been smarter, but the default dwarven Battleaxe proficiency and general dwarfiness makes me assume Strength.
Their Attack action has one melee weapon attack currently, which is at a +5 to hit (two or three lower than a conventional melee weapon attacker at this level), and deals 1d8+2 damage. Against an AC 10 enemy that's (very roughly rounded) 5.5 DPR, AC 15 that's 4, or AC 20 about 2.
Or, they could be casting 2d8 Sacred Flame with a DC of 15. Against an enemy with a +0 save bonus that's 6.5, +4 bonus that 4.5, or +8 bonus that's about 3. Currently, using their action for Sacred Flame is more DPR than attacking with the axe.
Either way, they're also walking around with a Spirit Guardians aura up, which does 11.5/10/8.5 average damage per target in the aura, depending on enemies' save bonus.
Level 8
Level 8 is time for Blessed Strikes, a nice d8 on either weapon attacks or cantrips.
Let's say that at 8 they take a feat to pick up Booming Blade, adding 1d8 more thunder damage on that attack (1d8 axe, 1d8 Blessed Strikes, 1d8 BB, +2 Str). AC 10 that's 13 DPR, AC 15 that's 9, or AC 20 that's 5.5. Plus their same 11.5/10/8.5 aura based on a 3d8 Spirit Guardians save..
Let's say at 8 they instead take a feat to pick up Shillelagh for a Wisdom-based attack with their 18 Wis. (1d8 club, 1d8 BS, +4 Wis) AC 10 that's 12 DPR, AC 15 that's 9, or AC 20 that's 5.5. Plus their 11.5/10/8.5 Spirit Guardians aura.
Or, they take a +2 Wisdom ASI and continue casting Sacred Flame! Against an enemy with a +0 save bonus that's 10, +4 bonus that 7.5, or +8 bonus that's about 5. Plus, a 12/10.5/9 Spirit Guardians aura.
So Shillelagh or Booming Blade pull ahead on DPR a very little bit (though BB will be very swingy, only about a 50% hit chance against very standard ACs). Was that worth not increasing your primary casting stat to 20 by level 8 like every caster should? Conventional build wisdom would say "no."
Level 12
Let's say at 8 they took an option for Booming Blade, and now they're taking an option for Shillelagh to attack with their 18 Wisdom instead of their 14 Strength. With their Blessed Strikes d8, and their Booming Blade freshly ranked up, they're now doing d8 club, +d8 BS, +2d8 BB, +4 with a +8 to hit bonus. AC 10 that's 22, AC 15 that's 16.5, AC 20 that's 11. And a 12/10.5/9 Spirit Guardians aura based on 18 wisdom, which you may or may not keep up (DC 10 70%/DC 15 45%/DC 20 20% pass).
The version that took 20 wisdom at 8 has gotten a tier upgrade to Sacred Flame as well, and now casts for 3d8, +d8 BS, save for nothing. Against a +0 bonus that's 16, +4 is 14.5, +8 is 12.5. Spirit Guardians is up to 12/11/9.5 due to 20 wisdom. But, this version has now also taken Warcaster (DC 10 91%/DC 15 70%/DC 20 64% pass) or Resilient (DC 10 90%/DC 15 65%/DC 20 40% pass), meaning that Spirit Guardians is much more likely to stay up for more rounds, spending fewer slots and dealing more damage to the board.
I'm not going to do more math further into the future, but the long and short of it is... I'd much rather be the 20 Wisdom cleric with Warcaster when I hit T3, then the 18 Wisdom cleric with two different feats into Shillelagh and Booming Blade, who's now locked into making melee-range attacks instead of being flexible to Sacred Flame high value targets from a distance (and even as an OA!). There just isn't enough extra damage to be found to justify investing so much investment in the melee attacks, because it means ignoring improving your save DC and playing to your party role's strength for two feats in a row, all to be.... still very mediocre at putting out single-target DPR? Your party will not be impressed that you've managed to squeeze out 4 or 5 extra damage per axe/club swing vs. casting Sacred Flame, for all the distraction.
skimming the link, i don’t see much of a “good job” on any front. Describes a cleric with a standard +3 wisdom… but recommends using a xbow with a +2 Dex mod at level 1 instead, precluding wielding their shield, for a “basic” build? Thats an AGGRESSIVELY bad start to things unless there’s a damn good reason to use the bow, I doubt the authors insights get any more valuable… their next big offering is advice to blow a slot on a 1-round sanctuary at the start of combat, but SKIP Spiritual Weapon because they think it’s a waste of a slot? Okay buddy 🙄
These forums have no shortage of folks who can hand out solid build advice, here or in the cleric sub forum. OP doesn’t have to listen to me… but THAT article is hot garbage, as advice offered in a vacuum on random blogs that can’t be engaged with criticism from an involved user base so often is.
As far as I'm concerned, Chicken_Champ is the man(or woman) up in here. I couldn't get my DM to understand my rationale for building a low STR Cleric(low DEX too, both stats at 8) but, I immediately felt that a STR melee Cleric was subpar. I made a Grave Cleric and while that's a little different as far as armour goes, most of the other reasonings apply. Originally I was going to avoid a MAD build by going WIS/CON but, I had to be a Researcher bookworm as nobody else was going to take the lore skills. I ended up with 18 WIS, 18(tome) INT, 14 CON, 10 CHA and my pair of 8s at lvl 12 now. I couldn't be happier. I have 20 AC, a ton of HP, Warcaster. Yeah, I go where I want and melt enemies just fine. I don't think I've ever swung a weapon.
skimming the link, i don’t see much of a “good job” on any front. Describes a cleric with a standard +3 wisdom… but recommends using a xbow with a +2 Dex mod at level 1 instead, precluding wielding their shield, for a “basic” build? Thats an AGGRESSIVELY bad start to things unless there’s a damn good reason to use the bow, I doubt the authors insights get any more valuable… their next big offering is advice to blow a slot on a 1-round sanctuary at the start of combat, but SKIP Spiritual Weapon because they think it’s a waste of a slot? Okay buddy 🙄
These forums have no shortage of folks who can hand out solid build advice, here or in the cleric sub forum. OP doesn’t have to listen to me… but THAT article is hot garbage, as advice offered in a vacuum on random blogs that can’t be engaged with criticism from an involved user base so often is.
As far as I'm concerned, Chicken_Champ is the man(or woman) up in here. I couldn't get my DM to understand my rationale for building a low STR Cleric(low DEX too, both stats at 8) but, I immediately felt that a STR melee Cleric was subpar. I made a Grave Cleric and while that's a little different as far as armour goes, most of the other reasonings apply. Originally I was going to avoid a MAD build by going WIS/CON but, I had to be a Researcher bookworm as nobody else was going to take the lore skills. I ended up with 18 WIS, 18(tome) INT, 14 CON, 10 CHA and my pair of 8s at lvl 12 now. I couldn't be happier. I have 20 AC, a ton of HP, Warcaster. Yeah, I go where I want and melt enemies just fine. I don't think I've ever swung a weapon.
The point of the thread was the OP asking for options to increase melee usefulness...
They like the idea of going into melee as they find it enjoyable.
TBH it's kinda counterproductive for someone to come in and say "nah that's silly don't do that" when thats not the question.
It's better to just leave a suggestion or two on melee options or if you don't like the idea just not engage.
I'm not sure the utility in coming in just to try and crap on someone's idea.
As far as I'm concerned, Chicken_Champ is the man(or woman) up in here. I couldn't get my DM to understand my rationale for building a low STR Cleric(low DEX too, both stats at 8) but, I immediately felt that a STR melee Cleric was subpar. I made a Grave Cleric and while that's a little different as far as armour goes, most of the other reasonings apply. Originally I was going to avoid a MAD build by going WIS/CON but, I had to be a Researcher bookworm as nobody else was going to take the lore skills. I ended up with 18 WIS, 18(tome) INT, 14 CON, 10 CHA and my pair of 8s at lvl 12 now. I couldn't be happier. I have 20 AC, a ton of HP, Warcaster. Yeah, I go where I want and melt enemies just fine. I don't think I've ever swung a weapon.
The point of the thread was the OP asking for options to increase melee usefulness...
They like the idea of going into melee as they find it enjoyable.
TBH it's kinda counterproductive for someone to come in and say "nah that's silly don't do that" when thats not the question.
It's better to just leave a suggestion or two on melee options or if you don't like the idea just not engage.
I'm not sure the utility in coming in just to try and crap on someone's idea.
You are right, my post was not constructive in respect to how to make a more effective melee cleric. If someone had posted the same thing to me if I had posted this thread, I would have considered an avenue to consider more than someone crapping on my idea. So, maybe to your end, don't assume the OP will find the post "counterproductive".
To Morgorin, if you feel my response has "crapped" on your idea, I am sorry.
As far as I'm concerned, Chicken_Champ is the man(or woman) up in here. I couldn't get my DM to understand my rationale for building a low STR Cleric(low DEX too, both stats at 8) but, I immediately felt that a STR melee Cleric was subpar. I made a Grave Cleric and while that's a little different as far as armour goes, most of the other reasonings apply. Originally I was going to avoid a MAD build by going WIS/CON but, I had to be a Researcher bookworm as nobody else was going to take the lore skills. I ended up with 18 WIS, 18(tome) INT, 14 CON, 10 CHA and my pair of 8s at lvl 12 now. I couldn't be happier. I have 20 AC, a ton of HP, Warcaster. Yeah, I go where I want and melt enemies just fine. I don't think I've ever swung a weapon.
The point of the thread was the OP asking for options to increase melee usefulness...
They like the idea of going into melee as they find it enjoyable.
TBH it's kinda counterproductive for someone to come in and say "nah that's silly don't do that" when thats not the question.
It's better to just leave a suggestion or two on melee options or if you don't like the idea just not engage.
I'm not sure the utility in coming in just to try and crap on someone's idea.
You are right, my post was not constructive in respect to how to make a more effective melee cleric. If someone had posted the same thing to me if I had posted this thread, I would have considered an avenue to consider more than someone crapping on my idea. So, maybe to your end, don't assume the OP will find the post "counterproductive".
To Morgorin, if you feel my response has "crapped" on your idea, I am sorry.
I am glad your character works well though! And it sounds like a fun character.
I don't want people to feel that any one concept is "correct" and simply want to say that there are a lot of ways to play the class.
I don't quite remember who it was that said it first, but someone did ask, "What does that aura do?" The OP hasn't posted a single word in this thread since they made this thread, just over a month ago. It's impossible to give a decent answer without getting any feedback. This applies to more than just what the aura did of course.
I don't quite remember who it was that said it first, but someone did ask, "What does that aura do?" The OP hasn't posted a single word in this thread since they made this thread, just over a month ago. It's impossible to give a decent answer without getting any feedback. This applies to more than just what the aura did of course.
Now that you mention it the OP has a 2+ year lease of account and has seemingly only posted once. I wonder how often that happens.
Sorry, I did not respond to everyone earlier - life got really busy for a while.
Holy cow, though! You guys really came through. Special thanks to Chicken_Champ and OptimusGrimus for putting a lot of thought and effort into their responses.
As for feedback:
The aura is this: Any fiend within 10 feet of me gets disadvantage on all saving and ability rolls. So, I definitely intend to wade into melee a lot. It seems a little too powerful, to me, but I think our DM is increasing the difficulty of our encounters to counter-act this and other effects/boons that other players have.
I think I will focus on increasing the damage around me, rather than melee weapon damage. I don't find myself at a lack for damage, generally, I just have to wade into melee range more frequently. So, emphasize my use of spirit guardians, keep using inflict wounds (I really like that spell), keep my allies up and running.
My dwarf has a stat spread of 14/8/16/10/18/10. I dumped DEX for character reasons - it makes sense that this Dwarven monk (religious monk, not the class monk) of the God of Joy - generally the party/celebration god - would have high wisdom followed by constitution then strength. He probably would not be particularly agile (he's a portly fellow).
My AC is 18 at the moment - I have chain mail armor and use a shield.
Sorry, I did not respond to everyone earlier - life got really busy for a while.
Holy cow, though! You guys really came through. Special thanks to Chicken_Champ and OptimusGrimus for putting a lot of thought and effort into their responses.
As for feedback:
The aura is this: Any fiend within 10 feet of me gets disadvantage on all saving and ability rolls. So, I definitely intend to wade into melee a lot. It seems a little too powerful, to me, but I think our DM is increasing the difficulty of our encounters to counter-act this and other effects/boons that other players have.
I think I will focus on increasing the damage around me, rather than melee weapon damage. I don't find myself at a lack for damage, generally, I just have to wade into melee range more frequently. So, emphasize my use of spirit guardians, keep using inflict wounds (I really like that spell), keep my allies up and running.
My dwarf has a stat spread of 14/8/16/10/18/10. I dumped DEX for character reasons - it makes sense that this Dwarven monk (religious monk, not the class monk) of the God of Joy - generally the party/celebration god - would have high wisdom followed by constitution then strength. He probably would not be particularly agile (he's a portly fellow).
My AC is 18 at the moment - I have chain mail armor and use a shield.
Yeah this means you definitely want to be within 10ft of any powerful Undead....ironically it also means you rarely want to use Turn Undead as that will cause them to leave the aura.
This also means that Chicken might be right and Sacred Flame might be your better bet as they will always have DIS on your DEX save to avoid it.
I would forgo the melee approach in this case and instead go with Spirit Guardians and Cast Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead a lot.
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I am currently playing in a campaign as a level 6 Life Cleric, a Hill Dwarf. In-story, I received a debuff aura around myself for our most likely enemies, fiends (in exchange for my life at the end of our mission/maybe at DMs discretion when his story is over).
I had been considering ways to spice up my Cleric, already. I was thinking about taking the magic initiate feat at level 8, taking druid for goodberry and perhaps shillelagh. Now, I don't know.
With this new aura (and for in-game reasons), I think I want to begin focusing more on melee fighting, in addition to healing/buffing. I have, use, and love inflict wounds. Maybe even pick up a proficiency with martial weapons somehow, idk. Any ideas on how to increase a Life cleric's melee usefulness? Any idea is welcome (multiclassing, feats, spells, anything).
What are your stats, and what does the aura do?
being a dwarf you already have proficiency with battleaxe, handaxe, light hammer, and warhammer. Cleric gives you all simple weapons which overslaps slightly.
tashas gives the blessed strikes ability, which would replace your divine strike feature. It would allow you to add 1d8 radiant damage to a weapon attack or a cantrip once per round. It’s a bit more versatile and wouldn’t make magic initiate a priority, though it could still benefit from any cantrip chosen. If your wisdom is high but you have a low dexterity and strength score, consider primal savagery. It would be dealing 2d10+1d8 with blessed strike at your level, which is 1 average damage less than a level 1 inflict wounds. It scales up to 4d10+1d8 with blessed strike.
if you find yourself surrounded by creatures with your aura and spirit guardians up, word of radiance could be effective. Since all the affected creatures roll their save at once, the 1d8 from blessed strikes would multiple creatures that fail their save with 2d6+1d8.
I would consider Magic Initiate for Booming Blade and Find Familiar. Booming Blade will add considerable damage to your melee attacks and continue to scale as you level up, and also help deter creatures from moving away from you and attacking allies since they'll take even more damage. An owl familiar will also increase your melee accuracy substantially because it can fly in, perform the help action to grant you advantage on your next attack, then fly away without provoking opportunity attacks.
Later on if you want to increase your chances of Booming Blade's secondary damage triggering, you can take the Crusher feat to create some distance so that the creature will need to move if they want to attack, or move them off an ally so your allies can move away from the creature without provoking opportunity attacks.
As a life cleric, you already have heavy armor and shields. As a hill dwarf, you already have good HP (and battleaxes, which as I discuss below, doesn't really matter). As a cleric, you already have high Constitution. So.... how are you not already a melee character, just because you aren't making melee weapon attacks? TLDR: don't try to turn the ship around and become a striker, just lean more into being "tanky" so that you can stand in the front line and cast spells.
1. Why Melee Weapon DPR Is Not For You
There's a few elements to melee DPR: (1) having a good attack stat for melee attacks, (2) having more than one attack, and (3) adding bonus damage to those attacks.
To start with (3), you're only two levels away from Divine Strike/Blessed Strikes, depending on which version you'll be using. Either is a perfectly decent d8 to a weapon attack, or BS can be used for a cantrip as well... but either way, these aren't for spell attacks like Inflict Wounds. Adding a single d8 to an attack, plus your ability score modifier as usual, is... not really going to win you any DPR awards even if you had multiple attacks per round, but with only one attack, it's clearly not enough. If you were able to also add something like Booming Blade to the attack, hey, that's even more d8's! But d8+5+d8+[1d8-2d8] still isn't much to write home about, something like average 20.
So really, I'm going to stop you there. Even if you get a way to attack with Wisdom using Shillelagh, building to spend your turns doing a single attack for an average 20 isn't a useful use of your turns. Lets say you even also took the time to cast Spirit Shroud... d8+5+d8+d8+d8 looks pretty good! But it's still just 25 damage per round.... and something as simple as throwing up a Spirit Guardians is probably likely to do as much or more even without considering your action. So .... just quit chasing melee DPR as a sidejob, you don't need to be swinging weapons.
2. Thiccness
But as I started with... you're already a great melee character, because you have high AC, high con, and an aura to drag around with you. You've enjoyed casting Inflict Wounds so far... why not continue to do so? Spirit Guardians is a meat grinder, and the best way to optimize its damage, is to optimize (1) tankiness to move and stand wherever you want in battle, and (2) Concentration saving throws. Even when you run low on 3rd level spell slots for it... Spiritual Weapon is there to hold your hand.
Your AC is probably already 20, in Plate and a Shield. You Con is already probably 16+, and you've got extra Hill Dwarf HP as well. So what are you missing right now to be a slab of concentration muscle? Resilient (Constitution) or Warcaster, that's probably it. If your Con score is an odd number right now, take Resilient. If it isn't, take Warcaster, which is also more fun in that it will let you start being an Opportunity Attack menace to enemies that try to flee your meat grinder.
Beyond 8, other feats that build towards this? After both Resilient and Warcaster, don't sleep on Tough (slab gets slabbier), Lucky (concentration save emergency), Shield Master (better Dex saves and Evasion, even though you won't be using the shove), or Chef (a final +1 Con if Resilient left you odd, and the party will appreciate having pocket cakes).
Other than casting Spirit Guardians (or Spiritual Weapon in a pinch) and keeping Concentration up... what else is there for you to do while hanging in melee? Why, Sacred Flame of course! No, it isn't just a spell for backliners, because as a save-based spell rather than an attack spell, there's no reason you can't cast it in melee as well with no penalties! If you take the Blessed Strikes feature at 8 (which you should), then you'll be adding a bonus d8 on this, 3d8 at level 8, 4d8 at 11. Average 13, on top of that lovely 3d8+ area-effect meat grinder you're carrying around.... is as good or better DPR as you'd accomplish trying to turn the ship around for melee weapon attacks. Or, continue casting Inflict Wounds if you'd like, why not! The point is, anything you do with your action while keeping up Spirit Guardians is a cherry on top.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Spirit Guardians is the way to go here for melee range anyway and since you have to be fairly close you might as well pick up something like Booming Blade from Wizard Initiate.
Assuming you have the STR for Plate anyway you can compare damage:
5th level:
Sacred Flame: 2d8 (save or suck) = 9 average DPR
Boomer Blade: 2d8 + DEX/STR and additional 2d8 if they move. = 12 DPR with potential for 21 DPR if they move.
Once you get to Divine Strike at 8th level:
Sacred Flame: 3d8 (13.5)
Boomer Blade: 3d8+ STR (16.5) with potential for 25.5 if they move.
In either case you will have Spiritual Guardians up and since its a save for half spell you don't have to worry too much about maxing WIS if you do not want to.
You could also go War Caster route and wade in so that you can then attack with BB when they try to leave and they take more damage and proc more boom.
They're a dwarf, they don't need any strength for heavy armor at all, so why would it be any higher than 8?
It's not that Spirit Guardians doesn't help the melee weapon attack cleric just as much as the caster cleric.... it's that the melee weapon attack cleric has several feats and multiclass requirements to get to the point where they can make a competent melee attack. They need to take a feat or MC for Shillelagh, and a second feat or MC for Booming Blade, and in the meantime they are putting off getting +2 Wisdom, Warcaster, or Resilient (Con).
It's not realistic, and all you get is... a single crappy melee attack, while putting off the benefits that would have made your Spirit Guardians more reliable.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I rarely completely dump STR since it is handy to be able to carry a downed ally. :)
Morgorin, I'm not sure you are at a level where it would make sense to switch gears to melee. If you have the STR and CHA a couple of levels of paladin might be worthwhile but I wouldn't think something small from magic initiate would impact your melee greater than Spirit Guardians or similar spells. Life cleric is the essential 'stand there and take it while buffing everyone' stereotype. 5e rewards that kind of specialization and moving away from it is just fighting the system.
Now, I am not a huge fan of the cleric spell list past level 13. There are only eight spells most of which are pretty circumstantial. That is not a bad time to multiclass out of cleric if you have the stats for it. I like paladin or bard but if you don't have the stats then I could see echo knight being an interesting choice.
Really, in your case I would recommend you stick with straight cleric and maybe ask your DM if he is willing to let you tweak your build or change domains to allow for a more melee focus.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Funny how that melee attack is better than using the cantrip you keep touting? Even if their STR was 10 it would be better as you have the potential for the extra boom damage if they move...
Also you have no idea if they dumped STR so its moot overall.
Also if they dumped STR just use a Dagger? Its 1 point less damage than a mace....
If they dumped DEX and STR....I am not sure as that is not something anyone should do.
I don't understand why you would think that the dwarven cleric would have a high dexterity either? I'll grant, either their Dex or their Strength is probably at 14 with the other at 10 if they did a typical point buy start, but...
Let's break this down at 6 (current situation), 8 (their next feat), and 12 (two feats and next tier)
Current Level 6
Let's give this cleric the benefit of the doubt that they have 14 Strength (even though they didn't need it), having started with a point buy stat spread of something like 14/10/16/8/17/8, and having done something at Cleric 4 to give them 18 Wisdom. Starting 10 Strength 14 Dex would have probably been smarter, but the default dwarven Battleaxe proficiency and general dwarfiness makes me assume Strength.
Their Attack action has one melee weapon attack currently, which is at a +5 to hit (two or three lower than a conventional melee weapon attacker at this level), and deals 1d8+2 damage. Against an AC 10 enemy that's (very roughly rounded) 5.5 DPR, AC 15 that's 4, or AC 20 about 2.
Or, they could be casting 2d8 Sacred Flame with a DC of 15. Against an enemy with a +0 save bonus that's 6.5, +4 bonus that 4.5, or +8 bonus that's about 3. Currently, using their action for Sacred Flame is more DPR than attacking with the axe.
Either way, they're also walking around with a Spirit Guardians aura up, which does 11.5/10/8.5 average damage per target in the aura, depending on enemies' save bonus.
Level 8
Level 8 is time for Blessed Strikes, a nice d8 on either weapon attacks or cantrips.
Let's say that at 8 they take a feat to pick up Booming Blade, adding 1d8 more thunder damage on that attack (1d8 axe, 1d8 Blessed Strikes, 1d8 BB, +2 Str). AC 10 that's 13 DPR, AC 15 that's 9, or AC 20 that's 5.5. Plus their same 11.5/10/8.5 aura based on a 3d8 Spirit Guardians save..
Let's say at 8 they instead take a feat to pick up Shillelagh for a Wisdom-based attack with their 18 Wis. (1d8 club, 1d8 BS, +4 Wis) AC 10 that's 12 DPR, AC 15 that's 9, or AC 20 that's 5.5. Plus their 11.5/10/8.5 Spirit Guardians aura.
Or, they take a +2 Wisdom ASI and continue casting Sacred Flame! Against an enemy with a +0 save bonus that's 10, +4 bonus that 7.5, or +8 bonus that's about 5. Plus, a 12/10.5/9 Spirit Guardians aura.
So Shillelagh or Booming Blade pull ahead on DPR a very little bit (though BB will be very swingy, only about a 50% hit chance against very standard ACs). Was that worth not increasing your primary casting stat to 20 by level 8 like every caster should? Conventional build wisdom would say "no."
Level 12
Let's say at 8 they took an option for Booming Blade, and now they're taking an option for Shillelagh to attack with their 18 Wisdom instead of their 14 Strength. With their Blessed Strikes d8, and their Booming Blade freshly ranked up, they're now doing d8 club, +d8 BS, +2d8 BB, +4 with a +8 to hit bonus. AC 10 that's 22, AC 15 that's 16.5, AC 20 that's 11. And a 12/10.5/9 Spirit Guardians aura based on 18 wisdom, which you may or may not keep up (DC 10 70%/DC 15 45%/DC 20 20% pass).
The version that took 20 wisdom at 8 has gotten a tier upgrade to Sacred Flame as well, and now casts for 3d8, +d8 BS, save for nothing. Against a +0 bonus that's 16, +4 is 14.5, +8 is 12.5. Spirit Guardians is up to 12/11/9.5 due to 20 wisdom. But, this version has now also taken Warcaster (DC 10 91%/DC 15 70%/DC 20 64% pass) or Resilient (DC 10 90%/DC 15 65%/DC 20 40% pass), meaning that Spirit Guardians is much more likely to stay up for more rounds, spending fewer slots and dealing more damage to the board.
I'm not going to do more math further into the future, but the long and short of it is... I'd much rather be the 20 Wisdom cleric with Warcaster when I hit T3, then the 18 Wisdom cleric with two different feats into Shillelagh and Booming Blade, who's now locked into making melee-range attacks instead of being flexible to Sacred Flame high value targets from a distance (and even as an OA!). There just isn't enough extra damage to be found to justify investing so much investment in the melee attacks, because it means ignoring improving your save DC and playing to your party role's strength for two feats in a row, all to be.... still very mediocre at putting out single-target DPR? Your party will not be impressed that you've managed to squeeze out 4 or 5 extra damage per axe/club swing vs. casting Sacred Flame, for all the distraction.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
to each their own....
I will leave this here https://tabletopbuilds.com/basic-build-series-cleric/
It does a good job of explaining why WIS to 20 is not always the best idea.
skimming the link, i don’t see much of a “good job” on any front. Describes a cleric with a standard +3 wisdom… but recommends using a xbow with a +2 Dex mod at level 1 instead, precluding wielding their shield, for a “basic” build? Thats an AGGRESSIVELY bad start to things unless there’s a damn good reason to use the bow, I doubt the authors insights get any more valuable… their next big offering is advice to blow a slot on a 1-round sanctuary at the start of combat, but SKIP Spiritual Weapon because they think it’s a waste of a slot? Okay buddy 🙄
These forums have no shortage of folks who can hand out solid build advice, here or in the cleric sub forum. OP doesn’t have to listen to me… but THAT article is hot garbage, as advice offered in a vacuum on random blogs that can’t be engaged with criticism from an involved user base so often is.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
As far as I'm concerned, Chicken_Champ is the man(or woman) up in here. I couldn't get my DM to understand my rationale for building a low STR Cleric(low DEX too, both stats at 8) but, I immediately felt that a STR melee Cleric was subpar. I made a Grave Cleric and while that's a little different as far as armour goes, most of the other reasonings apply. Originally I was going to avoid a MAD build by going WIS/CON but, I had to be a Researcher bookworm as nobody else was going to take the lore skills. I ended up with 18 WIS, 18(tome) INT, 14 CON, 10 CHA and my pair of 8s at lvl 12 now. I couldn't be happier. I have 20 AC, a ton of HP, Warcaster. Yeah, I go where I want and melt enemies just fine. I don't think I've ever swung a weapon.
Go ahead and discuss with them then....
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/ov5nmd/presenting_a_highly_detailed_build_guide_for
The point of the thread was the OP asking for options to increase melee usefulness...
They like the idea of going into melee as they find it enjoyable.
TBH it's kinda counterproductive for someone to come in and say "nah that's silly don't do that" when thats not the question.
It's better to just leave a suggestion or two on melee options or if you don't like the idea just not engage.
I'm not sure the utility in coming in just to try and crap on someone's idea.
You are right, my post was not constructive in respect to how to make a more effective melee cleric. If someone had posted the same thing to me if I had posted this thread, I would have considered an avenue to consider more than someone crapping on my idea. So, maybe to your end, don't assume the OP will find the post "counterproductive".
To Morgorin, if you feel my response has "crapped" on your idea, I am sorry.
I am glad your character works well though! And it sounds like a fun character.
I don't want people to feel that any one concept is "correct" and simply want to say that there are a lot of ways to play the class.
I don't quite remember who it was that said it first, but someone did ask, "What does that aura do?" The OP hasn't posted a single word in this thread since they made this thread, just over a month ago. It's impossible to give a decent answer without getting any feedback. This applies to more than just what the aura did of course.
<Insert clever signature here>
Now that you mention it the OP has a 2+ year lease of account and has seemingly only posted once. I wonder how often that happens.
Sorry, I did not respond to everyone earlier - life got really busy for a while.
Holy cow, though! You guys really came through. Special thanks to Chicken_Champ and OptimusGrimus for putting a lot of thought and effort into their responses.
As for feedback:
My dwarf has a stat spread of 14/8/16/10/18/10. I dumped DEX for character reasons - it makes sense that this Dwarven monk (religious monk, not the class monk) of the God of Joy - generally the party/celebration god - would have high wisdom followed by constitution then strength. He probably would not be particularly agile (he's a portly fellow).
My AC is 18 at the moment - I have chain mail armor and use a shield.
Yeah this means you definitely want to be within 10ft of any powerful Undead....ironically it also means you rarely want to use Turn Undead as that will cause them to leave the aura.
This also means that Chicken might be right and Sacred Flame might be your better bet as they will always have DIS on your DEX save to avoid it.
I would forgo the melee approach in this case and instead go with Spirit Guardians and Cast Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead a lot.