My lawful good light cleric has but himself in a difficult spot and I need advice.
In a world where non-divine magic and spell casting is made illegal my cleric stands between protecting two children with obvious magic capabilities (telepathy and shapeshifting) and a knight of the local law force enforcing the law. This (evil) knight wants to capture and execute the children. I am a server of Pelor, the sun god, and I happen to also be part of the law enforcement. I have upheld the law in my local city where wizards are generally evil terrorist and corrupters of order. Thus the knight is also my superior and orders me to hand over the children for execution.
Upon this cliffhanger we have taken a pause from the game and we will resume playing next week.
I have trouble coping with the idea my lawful good cleric should just hand over two "innocent" children to execution, my cleric is good after all. But also lawful, not chaotic, and should follow the law that I myself have supported. And the law states all magic users are to be executed (very brutal, I know. Imagine nazis where wizards are the Jews). How will Pelor react?
Just before this happens multiple of my party members revealed they are also some kind of non-divine magic wielders, and they will most definitely protect the children by force. This is another interesting RP-arc to be dealt with later.
How would you proceed? 1) Pacifist: Try to negotiate and fear the retribution (hiding illegal magicians is punishable by execution)? 2) Draw weapons: Hold your ground and try to flee with the children? 3) Passiv: Stand down and let the knight take the children. This is the law. 4) Active: Help the knight enforce the law even though it is evil.
Help me bring light into this darkness. You are my only hope.
In a world where non-divine magic and spell casting is made illegal my cleric stands between protecting two children with obvious magic capabilities (telepathy and shapeshifting) and a knight of the local law force enforcing the law. This (evil) knight wants to capture and execute the children. I am a server of Pelor, the sun god, and I happen to also be part of the law enforcement. I have upheld the law in my local city where wizards are generally evil terrorist and corrupters of order. Thus the knight is also my superior and orders me to hand over the children for execution.
Upon this cliffhanger we have taken a pause from the game and we will resume playing next week.
I have trouble coping with the idea my lawful good cleric should just hand over two "innocent" children to execution, my cleric is good after all. But also lawful, not chaotic, and should follow the law that I myself have supported. And the law states all magic users are to be executed (very brutal, I know. Imagine nazis where wizards are the Jews). How will Pelor react?
Just before this happens multiple of my party members revealed they are also some kind of non-divine magic wielders, and they will most definitely protect the children by force. This is another interesting RP-arc to be dealt with later.
How would you proceed? 1) Pacifist: Try to negotiate and fear the retribution (hiding illegal magicians is punishable by execution)? 2) Draw weapons: Hold your ground and try to flee with the children? 3) Passiv: Stand down and let the knight take the children. This is the law. 4) Active: Help the knight enforce the law even though it is evil.
Help me bring light into this darkness. You are my only hope.
There are only two possibilities: your superior is violating the law, or Pelor requires you to stand against the law. Without giving us specifics on the law, I can't give you more specificity, but I can brainstorm possibilities.
Does the country have trials? That is, do the children have to be proven, in court, to be violating the law in order to be sentenced, or can the knight simply execute the children because they've decided they're guilty?
If they are not entitled to a trial, Pelor requires you to stand against the law, because that isn't a law against non-divine magic, that's simply legal child murder with extra steps, and Pelor won't stand for that.
If they go to trial, is it a real trial? It takes a lot to be a real trial, but the element your post most strongly implies will be lacking is that the burden of proof should be on the state to prove a) the children are using magic, rather than some non-magical trick to accomplish the same task, and b) that the magic is not divine. You gave no indication there was even a shred of evidence that the children are using non-divine magic. If they are not entitled to a real trial, go back up to 1 - and bust out your Pelor magic, because your country has banned your religion and that's not ok.
Does the law ban all non-Divine magic? That's literally genocide - there are races with innate non-Divine magic they literally can't choose not to have. I doubt I have to tell you Pelor's opinion of e.g. declaring all High Elves illegal for being High Elves. If not, what are the nuances of the law?
The Lawful part of Lawful Good means you follow a personal code - whether or not that personal code matches the legal code of your country is a separate question. The Good part is less tractable. With that in mind, remember the following:
The criminals are minors.
As a corollary, you have implied even more strongly than you did when you used the word "knight" that they can't vote - the law being applied to them is not one they had any say in passing. Pelor is not a fan of tyranny.
You have implied they are poor and, since you used the word "knight", as a corollary, poorly educated. Subjecting people to laws they are incapable of knowing exist is also not something Pelor is going to broadly support - if you want people to follow the rules, it is basic decency to communicate those rules to them before you begin murdering them for not following the rules.
And so on. I can't come up with every possible logic path here, but it's deeply implausible that Pelor is going to in any way support you supporting the murder of children who haven't hurt anyone.
In the US, jury nullification is a (very complex) thing that (greatly simplified) can sometimes allow for a jury to acquit someone when the law is unjust or the punishment too great (determining this can be a whole thing). There's definitely room within lawful good for saying 'the laws weren't meant to cover this circumstance, I want to correct the law.'
I’m curious, how does the larger church organization feel about this, do you know? Surely, it’s not the first time it’s ever happened. What are the tenets of Pelor in your world? For that matter, what about other generally good gods? Are they all ok with this? It seems like there must be some official protocol within the church. If you follow it or not is a different question. But I’d wonder what it is the church hierarchy expects you to do — and note that may not match up with what pelor expects you to do. It could be pelor finds his priests corrupt and has been waiting for someone to come clean house.
My lawful good light cleric has but himself in a difficult spot and I need advice.
In a world where non-divine magic and spell casting is made illegal my cleric stands between protecting two children with obvious magic capabilities (telepathy and shapeshifting) and a knight of the local law force enforcing the law. This (evil) knight wants to capture and execute the children. I am a server of Pelor, the sun god, and I happen to also be part of the law enforcement. I have upheld the law in my local city where wizards are generally evil terrorist and corrupters of order. Thus the knight is also my superior and orders me to hand over the children for execution.
Upon this cliffhanger we have taken a pause from the game and we will resume playing next week.
I have trouble coping with the idea my lawful good cleric should just hand over two "innocent" children to execution, my cleric is good after all. But also lawful, not chaotic, and should follow the law that I myself have supported. And the law states all magic users are to be executed (very brutal, I know. Imagine nazis where wizards are the Jews). How will Pelor react?
Just before this happens multiple of my party members revealed they are also some kind of non-divine magic wielders, and they will most definitely protect the children by force. This is another interesting RP-arc to be dealt with later.
How would you proceed? 1) Pacifist: Try to negotiate and fear the retribution (hiding illegal magicians is punishable by execution)? 2) Draw weapons: Hold your ground and try to flee with the children? 3) Passiv: Stand down and let the knight take the children. This is the law. 4) Active: Help the knight enforce the law even though it is evil.
Help me bring light into this darkness. You are my only hope.
There's no right answer here, given the situation you describe.
Being lawful means doing evil; doing good means breaking the law. Either way, your character has an ethical conflict.
A truly strict, old-school adherence to alignment might lead you to helping the children (and the rest of your party) escape, and then surrendering yourself to the authorities. That's probably the only way to thread the needle.
Or you can lean more towards the lawful side or the good side of the issue, and then discuss with your DM if that means your alignment needs to change to LN or NG and what the consequences might be for that.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Lawful part of Lawful Good means you follow a personal code - whether or not that personal code matches the legal code of your country is a separate question.
That might be how you play it, but that's definitely not what the rules say.
A typical creature in the game world has an alignment, which broadly describes its moral and personal attitudes. Alignment is a combination of two factors: one identifies morality (good, evil, or neutral), and the other describes attitudes toward society and order (lawful, chaotic, or neutral). Thus, nine distinct alignments define the possible combinations.
These brief summaries of the nine alignments describe the typical behavior of a creature with that alignment. Individuals might vary significantly from that typical behavior, and few people are perfectly and consistently faithful to the precepts of their alignment.
Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society. Gold dragons, paladins, and most dwarves are lawful good.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@quindraco There will be no trials. And yes, all non-divine magic and thus genocide. And therefore inherently evil, I know. The human nation is at constant conflict with other magic using nations e.g. high elves. The history of this realm is too long to dwell at but basically the gods where betrayed by corrupt and evil wizards and "turned their back" to the humans. The human kings have banned all magic users in an attempt to bring back the favor of the gods.
@Xalthu The church and the crown is intertwined at this point and supportive of each other - also in the banishment of non-divine magic and burning all magic users at the stakes. This is obviously a corrupted version of Pelors teachings and the higher church hierarchy expects my cleric to follow the law and hunt down all wizards. My cleric has the favor of Pelor, he is his servant and gain his divine gift, thus my own thoughts were that my cleric would turn against the official church and the unjust law of the nation at some point (maybe now) and come through as the rightful prophet of Pelor.
To paraphrase Pelors teachings:
Just as staring at the sun can cause blindness of the eyes, relentless attention to the destruction of negative forces can blind the heart to the true essentials of life: kindness, mercy, and compassion.
@AntonSirius Great thoughts on the ethical conflict, exactly my thoughts. I was thinking something like helping the party and children escape (good), and there is some great roleplaying options in the want to surrender my self (and logically the whole party) over to the authorities afterward (law). Great thinking!
To be Lawful, you don't have to follow specific laws. You have to believe in order, and you have to believe that anarchy and chaos are detrimental to people. Imagine that there are 3 cities:
In city 1, people with blue eyes are put to death
In city 2, the concept of crime is rejected
In city 3, everyone receives a muffin every day
Your Lawful character cannot be lawful good and follow/help to enforce the laws in all three of these places. The laws of city 1 are clearly evil. The laws of City 2 are Chaotic. The laws of City 3 are silly. A lawful character is not obligated to go along with whatever law makers have decided - how else do you oppose the Lawful Evil tyrant?
You can believe in order without believing in specific laws. You can work to oppose and change those laws.
But perhaps most importantly of all, don't tie yourself to an alignment: play your character as you want them to be. Use this moment in the game to develop your character - changing the character's behaviour and motivation in consistent ways is important development and should happen to all good characters. An inflexible character who never changes is not an interesting character.
If you're a Cleric of Pelor, I would assume the "Law" in your Lawful Good should probably be more about following the teachings of Pelor rather then subject yourself to the laws of mere mortals. Not saying you should go out of your way to break them, but if the law of the land is at odds with the law of your deity, the law of your deity takes priority.
Don't know what level you are, but if you have access to 5th level spells, you could possibly bring Pelor into this using the Commune spell? Possibly start a revolution in this country and get their law changed to be more just and align with the teachings of the deities themselves. They should be inclined to listen since their reason for making that law in the first place WAS to earn the favor of the gods from what you said. Having said god pissed at you because of your laws is counter-productive.
Hi masterful minds of D&D
My lawful good light cleric has but himself in a difficult spot and I need advice.
In a world where non-divine magic and spell casting is made illegal my cleric stands between protecting two children with obvious magic capabilities (telepathy and shapeshifting) and a knight of the local law force enforcing the law. This (evil) knight wants to capture and execute the children. I am a server of Pelor, the sun god, and I happen to also be part of the law enforcement. I have upheld the law in my local city where wizards are generally evil terrorist and corrupters of order. Thus the knight is also my superior and orders me to hand over the children for execution.
Upon this cliffhanger we have taken a pause from the game and we will resume playing next week.
I have trouble coping with the idea my lawful good cleric should just hand over two "innocent" children to execution, my cleric is good after all. But also lawful, not chaotic, and should follow the law that I myself have supported. And the law states all magic users are to be executed (very brutal, I know. Imagine nazis where wizards are the Jews). How will Pelor react?
Just before this happens multiple of my party members revealed they are also some kind of non-divine magic wielders, and they will most definitely protect the children by force. This is another interesting RP-arc to be dealt with later.
How would you proceed? 1) Pacifist: Try to negotiate and fear the retribution (hiding illegal magicians is punishable by execution)? 2) Draw weapons: Hold your ground and try to flee with the children? 3) Passiv: Stand down and let the knight take the children. This is the law. 4) Active: Help the knight enforce the law even though it is evil.
Help me bring light into this darkness. You are my only hope.
There are only two possibilities: your superior is violating the law, or Pelor requires you to stand against the law. Without giving us specifics on the law, I can't give you more specificity, but I can brainstorm possibilities.
And so on. I can't come up with every possible logic path here, but it's deeply implausible that Pelor is going to in any way support you supporting the murder of children who haven't hurt anyone.
In the US, jury nullification is a (very complex) thing that (greatly simplified) can sometimes allow for a jury to acquit someone when the law is unjust or the punishment too great (determining this can be a whole thing). There's definitely room within lawful good for saying 'the laws weren't meant to cover this circumstance, I want to correct the law.'
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I’m curious, how does the larger church organization feel about this, do you know?
Surely, it’s not the first time it’s ever happened. What are the tenets of Pelor in your world? For that matter, what about other generally good gods? Are they all ok with this?
It seems like there must be some official protocol within the church. If you follow it or not is a different question. But I’d wonder what it is the church hierarchy expects you to do — and note that may not match up with what pelor expects you to do. It could be pelor finds his priests corrupt and has been waiting for someone to come clean house.
There's no right answer here, given the situation you describe.
Being lawful means doing evil; doing good means breaking the law. Either way, your character has an ethical conflict.
A truly strict, old-school adherence to alignment might lead you to helping the children (and the rest of your party) escape, and then surrendering yourself to the authorities. That's probably the only way to thread the needle.
Or you can lean more towards the lawful side or the good side of the issue, and then discuss with your DM if that means your alignment needs to change to LN or NG and what the consequences might be for that.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That might be how you play it, but that's definitely not what the rules say.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Thank you all for these great replies.
@quindraco There will be no trials. And yes, all non-divine magic and thus genocide. And therefore inherently evil, I know. The human nation is at constant conflict with other magic using nations e.g. high elves. The history of this realm is too long to dwell at but basically the gods where betrayed by corrupt and evil wizards and "turned their back" to the humans. The human kings have banned all magic users in an attempt to bring back the favor of the gods.
@Xalthu The church and the crown is intertwined at this point and supportive of each other - also in the banishment of non-divine magic and burning all magic users at the stakes. This is obviously a corrupted version of Pelors teachings and the higher church hierarchy expects my cleric to follow the law and hunt down all wizards. My cleric has the favor of Pelor, he is his servant and gain his divine gift, thus my own thoughts were that my cleric would turn against the official church and the unjust law of the nation at some point (maybe now) and come through as the rightful prophet of Pelor.
To paraphrase Pelors teachings:
@AntonSirius Great thoughts on the ethical conflict, exactly my thoughts. I was thinking something like helping the party and children escape (good), and there is some great roleplaying options in the want to surrender my self (and logically the whole party) over to the authorities afterward (law). Great thinking!
Thank you all for putting your minds into this.
To be Lawful, you don't have to follow specific laws. You have to believe in order, and you have to believe that anarchy and chaos are detrimental to people. Imagine that there are 3 cities:
Your Lawful character cannot be lawful good and follow/help to enforce the laws in all three of these places. The laws of city 1 are clearly evil. The laws of City 2 are Chaotic. The laws of City 3 are silly. A lawful character is not obligated to go along with whatever law makers have decided - how else do you oppose the Lawful Evil tyrant?
You can believe in order without believing in specific laws. You can work to oppose and change those laws.
But perhaps most importantly of all, don't tie yourself to an alignment: play your character as you want them to be. Use this moment in the game to develop your character - changing the character's behaviour and motivation in consistent ways is important development and should happen to all good characters. An inflexible character who never changes is not an interesting character.
If you're a Cleric of Pelor, I would assume the "Law" in your Lawful Good should probably be more about following the teachings of Pelor rather then subject yourself to the laws of mere mortals. Not saying you should go out of your way to break them, but if the law of the land is at odds with the law of your deity, the law of your deity takes priority.
Don't know what level you are, but if you have access to 5th level spells, you could possibly bring Pelor into this using the Commune spell? Possibly start a revolution in this country and get their law changed to be more just and align with the teachings of the deities themselves. They should be inclined to listen since their reason for making that law in the first place WAS to earn the favor of the gods from what you said. Having said god pissed at you because of your laws is counter-productive.
Food for thought.