I'm going to be playing a Soul Knife rogue with Elven Accuracy. The SK gets a bonus action attack with one of their soul knives, different than two weapon off hand attack it is a d4 instead of a d6, but it still gets the dex mod to damage.
So the question is, with Elven Accuracy if I don't already have advantage should I forgo the bonus action attack and use my bonus action to steady aim for the EA super advantage. Or is the potential for 2 attacks hitting outweigh the increased crit chance?
Two attacks hitting is better, as long as you already qualify for sneak attack, in my opinion. Elven Accuracy is a bit over-rated, unless you really specialize in it.
But if you are not getting your sneak attack, and advantage will give it to you, then take advantage.
Two attacks hitting is better, as long as you already qualify for sneak attack, in my opinion. Elven Accuracy is a bit over-rated, unless you really specialize in it.
But if you are not getting your sneak attack, and advantage will give it to you, then take advantage.
Making three rolls on one attack gives better odds of hitting than making two separate single roll attacks, and the weapon damage is nearly irrelevant for a Rogue.
Two attacks hitting is better, as long as you already qualify for sneak attack, in my opinion. Elven Accuracy is a bit over-rated, unless you really specialize in it.
But if you are not getting your sneak attack, and advantage will give it to you, then take advantage.
Making three rolls on one attack gives better odds of hitting than making two separate single roll attacks, and the weapon damage is nearly irrelevant for a Rogue.
That reply is totally depends on how hard it is to hit. If you hit on a 2 or better, two attacks are better. If you hit on a 20 or better, then you want the three attack rolls.
Sneak attack however makes things different. You can only get it once, so you care more about how many d20 rolls you get then how many attacks.
The math is real and perfect, but only works when you know what your required target on the d20 to hit is. The opinion comes in how likely you are to be facing a creature that is hard enough to hit that you want the super advantage, vs how likely you are to be facing a creature that is easy enough to hit to want the second attack.
In my personal experience, most of the time you are likely to be fighting an 'easy' target. AC does not scale the same way CR does. Once you hit a certain level, the monsters start switching to non-ac defenses.
The math is real and perfect, but only works when you know what your required target on the d20 to hit is. The opinion comes in how likely you are to be facing a creature that is hard enough to hit that you want the super advantage, vs how likely you are to be facing a creature that is easy enough to hit to want the second attack.
In my personal experience, most of the time you are likely to be fighting an 'easy' target. AC does not scale the same way CR does. Once you hit a certain level, the monsters start switching to non-ac defenses.
Opinion or target AC don’t matter on Rogue; a dagger attack simply doesn’t have value as a bonus action unless it’s to get an extra chance at landing Sneak Attack, and Super Advantage gives a better chance than two individual rolls regardless of target AC.
The thread is playing out pretty much the way the question was rolling around in my head.
Making two attacks is better than making one attack at advantage. Unless advantage gives sneak attack, which I'm factoring out of this question as I'd definitely use Steady Aim then. But is making two attacks better than making one attack at super advantage?
The feedback about it depends seems right. I know people have made charts for when to use Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter. Does anyone know about a chart for when a rogue should use Steady Aim, vs bonus action attack?
The thread is playing out pretty much the way the question was rolling around in my head.
Making two attacks is better than making one attack at advantage. Unless advantage gives sneak attack, which I'm factoring out of this question as I'd definitely use Steady Aim then. But is making two attacks better than making one attack at super advantage?
The feedback about it depends seems right. I know people have made charts for when to use Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter. Does anyone know about a chart for when a rogue should use Steady Aim, vs bonus action attack?
I did the math for a single case, but you have to make some assumptions, like how many sneak attack dice and what DEX modifier is. The short answer is is that super advantage is better when your base chance to hit is about 65% or less and you have 3 sneak attack dice. 70% is almost a dead heat. Higher hit probability than that, and two attacks is better, since the sneak attack is almost certain to land in either case. More sneak attack dice pushes you towards super advantage as the relative benefit of the second attack dwindles. But that hides a lot of complexity, since a single attack without advantage but having the choice between an off hand attack or a Cunning Action if the first attack lands might be a better choice than either.
I ran some scenarios through a DPR generator. Not really knowing what I was doing, there didn't seem to be a huge swing in DPR, but seemed to favor EA. So what I'm taking away so far is to use SA when I don't have sneak attack already or when the target's AC is high, and I don't have an urgent need to use a Cunning Action.
I think the question that comes up now whether to take Elven Accuracy at all. My point buy dex is 17, but if I made it 16 and went ASI I could bump another stat up +1. I'll probably stick with EA because it feels funner to roll 3 20s for the sneak attack crit.
Elven accuracy can be great on a rogue, and steady aim can be used to help ensure you get sneak attack along with increasing your chance to crit with all those dice on a single attack.
a soul knife who is able to throw those knives 60ft might benefit from the gunner feat. There may be circumstances where a mook is next to you imposing disadvantage on your ranged attacks while the enemy your party is targeting is a distance away. Gunner would give you your +1 dex and enable you to try two attacks against the high value target regardless of enemy placement.
you’d still have access to a “regular” advantage steady aim attack when necessary.
Something nobody has asked is "Do you need your movement that turn?" Another important factor to consider in combat because rogues tend to get folded on the front line.
They're not as bad as all that on the front; AC is the same as a TWF Fighter or Ranger, Hit Die difference is nominal not practical, and you've got Uncanny Dodge to mitigate hits. They don't have long term staying power, but you can easily mix it up in the front for a few rounds.
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I'm going to be playing a Soul Knife rogue with Elven Accuracy. The SK gets a bonus action attack with one of their soul knives, different than two weapon off hand attack it is a d4 instead of a d6, but it still gets the dex mod to damage.
So the question is, with Elven Accuracy if I don't already have advantage should I forgo the bonus action attack and use my bonus action to steady aim for the EA super advantage. Or is the potential for 2 attacks hitting outweigh the increased crit chance?
Personally I'd rather triple my odds of getting a Sneak Attack crit as opposed to make a dagger attack.
Two attacks hitting is better, as long as you already qualify for sneak attack, in my opinion. Elven Accuracy is a bit over-rated, unless you really specialize in it.
But if you are not getting your sneak attack, and advantage will give it to you, then take advantage.
That depends, what is your Attack Bonus, Damage Bonus, Level, and AC of the target you are trying to hit?
Making three rolls on one attack gives better odds of hitting than making two separate single roll attacks, and the weapon damage is nearly irrelevant for a Rogue.
That reply is totally depends on how hard it is to hit. If you hit on a 2 or better, two attacks are better. If you hit on a 20 or better, then you want the three attack rolls.
Sneak attack however makes things different. You can only get it once, so you care more about how many d20 rolls you get then how many attacks.
I'm not sure why we are treating this like a matter of opinion, there is literally math you can do that will give you the correct answer.
The math is real and perfect, but only works when you know what your required target on the d20 to hit is. The opinion comes in how likely you are to be facing a creature that is hard enough to hit that you want the super advantage, vs how likely you are to be facing a creature that is easy enough to hit to want the second attack.
In my personal experience, most of the time you are likely to be fighting an 'easy' target. AC does not scale the same way CR does. Once you hit a certain level, the monsters start switching to non-ac defenses.
Opinion or target AC don’t matter on Rogue; a dagger attack simply doesn’t have value as a bonus action unless it’s to get an extra chance at landing Sneak Attack, and Super Advantage gives a better chance than two individual rolls regardless of target AC.
The thread is playing out pretty much the way the question was rolling around in my head.
Making two attacks is better than making one attack at advantage. Unless advantage gives sneak attack, which I'm factoring out of this question as I'd definitely use Steady Aim then. But is making two attacks better than making one attack at super advantage?
The feedback about it depends seems right. I know people have made charts for when to use Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter. Does anyone know about a chart for when a rogue should use Steady Aim, vs bonus action attack?
I did the math for a single case, but you have to make some assumptions, like how many sneak attack dice and what DEX modifier is. The short answer is is that super advantage is better when your base chance to hit is about 65% or less and you have 3 sneak attack dice. 70% is almost a dead heat. Higher hit probability than that, and two attacks is better, since the sneak attack is almost certain to land in either case. More sneak attack dice pushes you towards super advantage as the relative benefit of the second attack dwindles. But that hides a lot of complexity, since a single attack without advantage but having the choice between an off hand attack or a Cunning Action if the first attack lands might be a better choice than either.
Here is the formula you can use that will tell you the average damage of your options.
AC = Armor Class of the enemy
ATK = Attack Bonus for your dagger
DMG = Damage Bonus for your dagger
LVL = Your Level
For AC>ATK and AC<ATK+20 if I did my notation right:
Steady Aim Avg Damage:(1-(.95^3))*((LVL/2+(LVL%2)/2)*3.5+3.5)+(1-(1-(AC-ATK)/20)^3)*(((LVL/2+(LVL%2)/2)*3.5+3.5+DMG))
Dual Wielding Avg Damage: (.05)*((LVL/2+(LVL%2)/2)*3.5+3.5)+((AC-ATK)/20)*((LVL/2+(LVL%2)/2)*3.5+3.5+DMG)+(.05*(1-(AC-ATK)/20))*(((LVL/2+(LVL%2)/2)*3.5)+(.05*2.5)+((AC-ATK)/20)*(1-(AC-ATK)/20)*((LVL/2+(LVL%2)/2)*3.5)+((AC-ATK)/20)*(2.5+DMG)
Or in Layman's terms:
Steady Aim Avg Damage: Crit Chance * (Weapon Damage + Sneak Attack Damage) + Hit Chance * (Weapon Damage + Damage Modifier + Sneak Damage)
Dual Wielding Avg Damage: Main Attack Crit Chance * (Main Attack Weapon Damage + Sneak Attack Damage)
+ Main Attack Hit Chance * (Main Attack Weapon Damage + Damage Modifier + Sneak Attack Damage)
+ (Bonus Attack Crit Chance * Main Attack Miss Chance * Sneak Attack Damage)
+ (Bonus Attack Crit Chance * Bonus Attack Weapon Damage)
+ (Bonus Attack Hit Chance * Main Attack Miss Chance * Sneak Attack Damage)
+ (Bonus Attack Hit Chance + Bonus Attack Weapon Damage + Damage Modifier)
Great stuff guys. Thanks for the math.
I ran some scenarios through a DPR generator. Not really knowing what I was doing, there didn't seem to be a huge swing in DPR, but seemed to favor EA. So what I'm taking away so far is to use SA when I don't have sneak attack already or when the target's AC is high, and I don't have an urgent need to use a Cunning Action.
I think the question that comes up now whether to take Elven Accuracy at all. My point buy dex is 17, but if I made it 16 and went ASI I could bump another stat up +1. I'll probably stick with EA because it feels funner to roll 3 20s for the sneak attack crit.
Elven accuracy can be great on a rogue, and steady aim can be used to help ensure you get sneak attack along with increasing your chance to crit with all those dice on a single attack.
a soul knife who is able to throw those knives 60ft might benefit from the gunner feat. There may be circumstances where a mook is next to you imposing disadvantage on your ranged attacks while the enemy your party is targeting is a distance away. Gunner would give you your +1 dex and enable you to try two attacks against the high value target regardless of enemy placement.
you’d still have access to a “regular” advantage steady aim attack when necessary.
Something nobody has asked is "Do you need your movement that turn?" Another important factor to consider in combat because rogues tend to get folded on the front line.
They're not as bad as all that on the front; AC is the same as a TWF Fighter or Ranger, Hit Die difference is nominal not practical, and you've got Uncanny Dodge to mitigate hits. They don't have long term staying power, but you can easily mix it up in the front for a few rounds.