Thinking an eladrin (monster's of multiverse version) with including racial bonuses starting stats of
10 14 14 16 12 10
Starting rogue 4 to 6 levels then multiclassing to wizard for bladesinger so a minimum of 3 levels but maybe 4 to pick up an attribute increase->feat::warcaster and maybe going to 5 for level 3 spells or to 6 for the extra attack.
So would swashbuckler or arcane trickster pair better with that and how many levels of wizard/bladesinger?
What you want to get out of your build will affect what combination works best for you.
Swashbuckler will be much better if you're focusing on melee combat, while the Arcane Trickster will shine if you're leaning more into the magic-wielding thief direction. My personal go-to is Swashbuckler for how it nearly guarantees being able to trigger Sneak Attack every turn.
For your Rogue Levels, I'd absolutely take the 4th level for that ASI. I'm currently playing a less-than-optimized character in a campaign, and that 5% less likely to land attacks for not having the relevant ability maxed is really being felt. I'd actually recommend taking the ASI in your primary attack ability score instead of the War Caster feat, for that reason. That 5th level of Rogue might be worth it for you if you're landing those Sneak Attacks, to get the additional damage die. Otherwise I don't think Uncanny Dodge quite justifies the delay to the next ASI.
Of course, if the game is going to high levels, and you want to be a roguish wizard, rather than a magic-wielding rogue, you might tough out low levels, taking only 3 levels of Rogue, so you have the 17 wizard levels available to get access to 9th level spells. But that only really matters if you know the game is going to L20.
After 4 levels of Wizard, I'd re-assess, and see how you're feeling about the character at that point, and what route seems best.
Alternatively: You might consider Bard levels instead of Wizard levels, because it synergizes with the Swashbuckler well. You'd put your 16 in Dexterity, and your 14s in Constitution and Charisma. At L4 you increase your Dexterity to 18, then your next eight levels you take College of Swords Bard, so you get magic that uses your Charisma (your Charisma also adding to your Initiative bonus for being a Swashbuckler, so it's pulling double duty), and you can use your Bardic Inspirations to add to your damage. That also gives you two more ASIs so you could have both your Dexterity and your Charisma at 18. You'll have extra attack at the 6th Bard level (your 10th character level), doubling your chance on landing a Sneak Attack each turn, and the various other bard features are really nice, like having a minimum of half-proficiency in all ability score checks (including Initiative, giving you a +12 Initiative modifier at L12). After that you could focus on Rogue levels, and once you get Reliable Talent, All of your dice rolls on Ability Checks less than 10 count as 10... including Initiative, so with 20 Dexterity & 20 Charisma, your minimum Initiative score is 26!
The question was should I take 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 levels of wizard, in the mostly rogue build. And the rogue would go 4 or 5 lor 6 levels before dipping in wizard bladesinger.
With arcane trickster I'd get more spells slots and a familiar owl (for flyby flanking -> advantage -> sneak attack)
Swashbuckler is better with dueling but I'm having a hard time with the MADness. (Then again I'm really only giving up the cha initiative bonus)
After I figure out the better of these two options I'm going to compare against a Swashbuckler rogue (x)/bard (1)/hexblade-warlock (4)
The bard 1 is cha based spells casting (with cool level 1 like faerie, feather fall, and healing word + 2 extra spell slots), the warlock would be going for cha bonus to attack and forego eldritch blast in favor of devils sight and improved pact weapon (longbow) to get sneak attack on ranged attacks.
Rogue warlock Starting stats would be 10 14 14 10 12 16.
I like the rogue skills and sneak attack (and Uncanny dodge and evasion and extra asi's)
I like the elven accuracy feat and skill expert and Telepathic for the +1 attribute increase they include. And again warcaster instead of eldritch mind.
Alternatively: You might consider Bard levels instead of Wizard levels, because it synergizes with the Swashbuckler well. You'd put your 16 in Dexterity, and your 14s in Constitution and Charisma. At L4 you increase your Dexterity to 18, then your next eight levels you take College of Swords Bard, so you get magic that uses your Charisma (your Charisma also adding to your Initiative bonus for being a Swashbuckler, so it's pulling double duty), and you can use your Bardic Inspirations to add to your damage. That also gives you two more ASIs so you could have both your Dexterity and your Charisma at 18. You'll have extra attack at the 6th Bard level (your 10th character level), doubling your chance on landing a Sneak Attack each turn, and the various other bard features are really nice, like having a minimum of half-proficiency in all ability score checks (including Initiative, giving you a +12 Initiative modifier at L12). After that you could focus on Rogue levels, and once you get Reliable Talent, All of your dice rolls on Ability Checks less than 10 count as 10... including Initiative, so with 20 Dexterity & 20 Charisma, your minimum Initiative score is 26!
This build looks great and a lot of fun! I really like it!
I would just point out that Reliable Talent only applies to checks you are proficient in and Jack of All Trades doesn't give you proficiency. Though you'll still be an initiative powerhouse. ;) Sorry to be a rules lawyer on that one.
Am alternative bard subclass if you think you'll reach high levels is Eloquence bard. Really make the most of your Face skillset and Silver Tongue interacts well with Panache. That's a bit more of a niche build though and doesn't answer the original post (sorry bout that!).
You might find that Arcane Trickster doesn't rely on Charisma in the same way that Swashbuckler expects it, getting abilities high can be a struggle for multiclassing so SAD is usually best. Mind you, pretty much guaranteed sneak attack and then a way to get out of melee range synergises very well with Booming Blade (especially as you can add sneak attack damage to the booming blade attack). If you want reliable melee damage output and a way to avoid getting hit too often (you will be squishy for a melee character) that's the route I recommend. In which case, don't go too far in rogue and focus on honing your spells as a Bladesinger, getting that versatility from wizard which is what will really make you shine.
Alternatively: You might consider Bard levels instead of Wizard levels, because it synergizes with the Swashbuckler well. You'd put your 16 in Dexterity, and your 14s in Constitution and Charisma. At L4 you increase your Dexterity to 18, then your next eight levels you take College of Swords Bard, so you get magic that uses your Charisma (your Charisma also adding to your Initiative bonus for being a Swashbuckler, so it's pulling double duty), and you can use your Bardic Inspirations to add to your damage. That also gives you two more ASIs so you could have both your Dexterity and your Charisma at 18. You'll have extra attack at the 6th Bard level (your 10th character level), doubling your chance on landing a Sneak Attack each turn, and the various other bard features are really nice, like having a minimum of half-proficiency in all ability score checks (including Initiative, giving you a +12 Initiative modifier at L12). After that you could focus on Rogue levels, and once you get Reliable Talent, All of your dice rolls on Ability Checks less than 10 count as 10... including Initiative, so with 20 Dexterity & 20 Charisma, your minimum Initiative score is 26!
This build looks great and a lot of fun! I really like it!
I would just point out that Reliable Talent only applies to checks you are proficient in and Jack of All Trades doesn't give you proficiency. Though you'll still be an initiative powerhouse. ;) Sorry to be a rules lawyer on that one.
Am alternative bard subclass if you think you'll reach high levels is Eloquence bard. Really make the most of your Face skillset and Silver Tongue interacts well with Panache. That's a bit more of a niche build though and doesn't answer the original post (sorry bout that!).
You might find that Arcane Trickster doesn't rely on Charisma in the same way that Swashbuckler expects it, getting abilities high can be a struggle for multiclassing so SAD is usually best. Mind you, pretty much guaranteed sneak attack and then a way to get out of melee range synergises very well with Booming Blade (especially as you can add sneak attack damage to the booming blade attack). If you want reliable melee damage output and a way to avoid getting hit too often (you will be squishy for a melee character) that's the route I recommend. In which case, don't go too far in rogue and focus on honing your spells as a Bladesinger, getting that versatility from wizard which is what will really make you shine.
Jack of All Trades adds half of your Proficiency Bonus, which I'd think qualifies for the Reliable Talent that applies "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus", but I wouldn't fight your ruling at the table.
(I did spot an error in my previous post: Half-proficiency with a 20 Dex & 20 Cha would have a 23 Initiative on a roll of 10... but a Harengon with the same build would have a minimum of 26 on all Initiative checks.)
Arcane Trickster especially considering the 10 charisma and 16 intelligence. One third of your arcane trickster levels will stack with bladesinger levels for spell slots and Arcane Trickster is the best Rogue subclass even when not considering this.
Number of wizard levels depends on what you want. The Bladesinger extra attack is awesome, also from purely a power/combat point of view there will never be a time you would be better off with a Rogue level than a Wizard Level when it comes to combat. So if it is combat you care about take as many Wizard levels as you can.
As far as higher level Rogue abilities you won't get much out of Uncanny Dodge because shield, absorb elements or silvery barbs will usually be a better use of your reaction. Evasion is likewise less powerful because you have absorb elements. So your big reasons for staying Rogue are expertise at level 6 and Reliable talent.
So I would break it down like this:
If you are primarily concerned about combat stop Rogue at 4 and max Wizard
If you want a mix of combat and skills take Wizard to level 6 and then Rogue after that.
If you are mostly concerned about skills stop wizard at level 2.
Do Eladrin get Elf weapon proficiencies? If so I would trade to get hand crossbow, that is the missile weapon you really want as a bladesinger.
Jack of All Trades adds half of your Proficiency Bonus, which I'd think qualifies for the Reliable Talent that applies "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus", but I wouldn't fight your ruling at the table.
(I did spot an error in my previous post: Half-proficiency with a 20 Dex & 20 Cha would have a 23 Initiative on a roll of 10... but a Harengon with the same build would have a minimum of 26 on all Initiative checks.)
Hmmmm... On further inspection it looks like by and large the community take my stance on that ruling, but Jeremy Crawford has said on twitter that your reading is correct. So I would check with your DM to see how they will rule that one.
The Sage Advice Compendium specifically says you can't use them together:
Can the rogue’s Reliable Talent feature be used in conjunction with Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades?
No. Each of these features has a precondition for its use; Reliable Talent activates when you make an ability check that uses your proficiency bonus, whereas the other two features activate when you make an ability check that doesn’t use your proficiency bonus. In other words, a check that qualifies for Reliable Talent doesn’t qualify for Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades. And Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades don’t work with each other, since you can add your proficiency bonus, or any portion thereof, only once to a roll.
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Thinking an eladrin (monster's of multiverse version) with including racial bonuses starting stats of
10 14 14 16 12 10
Starting rogue 4 to 6 levels then multiclassing to wizard for bladesinger so a minimum of 3 levels but maybe 4 to pick up an attribute increase->feat::warcaster and maybe going to 5 for level 3 spells or to 6 for the extra attack.
So would swashbuckler or arcane trickster pair better with that and how many levels of wizard/bladesinger?
What you want to get out of your build will affect what combination works best for you.
Swashbuckler will be much better if you're focusing on melee combat, while the Arcane Trickster will shine if you're leaning more into the magic-wielding thief direction. My personal go-to is Swashbuckler for how it nearly guarantees being able to trigger Sneak Attack every turn.
For your Rogue Levels, I'd absolutely take the 4th level for that ASI. I'm currently playing a less-than-optimized character in a campaign, and that 5% less likely to land attacks for not having the relevant ability maxed is really being felt. I'd actually recommend taking the ASI in your primary attack ability score instead of the War Caster feat, for that reason. That 5th level of Rogue might be worth it for you if you're landing those Sneak Attacks, to get the additional damage die. Otherwise I don't think Uncanny Dodge quite justifies the delay to the next ASI.
Of course, if the game is going to high levels, and you want to be a roguish wizard, rather than a magic-wielding rogue, you might tough out low levels, taking only 3 levels of Rogue, so you have the 17 wizard levels available to get access to 9th level spells. But that only really matters if you know the game is going to L20.
After 4 levels of Wizard, I'd re-assess, and see how you're feeling about the character at that point, and what route seems best.
Alternatively: You might consider Bard levels instead of Wizard levels, because it synergizes with the Swashbuckler well. You'd put your 16 in Dexterity, and your 14s in Constitution and Charisma. At L4 you increase your Dexterity to 18, then your next eight levels you take College of Swords Bard, so you get magic that uses your Charisma (your Charisma also adding to your Initiative bonus for being a Swashbuckler, so it's pulling double duty), and you can use your Bardic Inspirations to add to your damage. That also gives you two more ASIs so you could have both your Dexterity and your Charisma at 18. You'll have extra attack at the 6th Bard level (your 10th character level), doubling your chance on landing a Sneak Attack each turn, and the various other bard features are really nice, like having a minimum of half-proficiency in all ability score checks (including Initiative, giving you a +12 Initiative modifier at L12). After that you could focus on Rogue levels, and once you get Reliable Talent, All of your dice rolls on Ability Checks less than 10 count as 10... including Initiative, so with 20 Dexterity & 20 Charisma, your minimum Initiative score is 26!
The question was should I take 3, or 4, or 5, or 6 levels of wizard, in the mostly rogue build. And the rogue would go 4 or 5 lor 6 levels before dipping in wizard bladesinger.
With arcane trickster I'd get more spells slots and a familiar owl (for flyby flanking -> advantage -> sneak attack)
Swashbuckler is better with dueling but I'm having a hard time with the MADness. (Then again I'm really only giving up the cha initiative bonus)
After I figure out the better of these two options I'm going to compare against a Swashbuckler rogue (x)/bard (1)/hexblade-warlock (4)
The bard 1 is cha based spells casting (with cool level 1 like faerie, feather fall, and healing word + 2 extra spell slots), the warlock would be going for cha bonus to attack and forego eldritch blast in favor of devils sight and improved pact weapon (longbow) to get sneak attack on ranged attacks.
Rogue warlock Starting stats would be 10 14 14 10 12 16.
I like the rogue skills and sneak attack (and Uncanny dodge and evasion and extra asi's)
I like the elven accuracy feat and skill expert and Telepathic for the +1 attribute increase they include. And again warcaster instead of eldritch mind.
This build looks great and a lot of fun! I really like it!
I would just point out that Reliable Talent only applies to checks you are proficient in and Jack of All Trades doesn't give you proficiency. Though you'll still be an initiative powerhouse. ;) Sorry to be a rules lawyer on that one.
Am alternative bard subclass if you think you'll reach high levels is Eloquence bard. Really make the most of your Face skillset and Silver Tongue interacts well with Panache. That's a bit more of a niche build though and doesn't answer the original post (sorry bout that!).
You might find that Arcane Trickster doesn't rely on Charisma in the same way that Swashbuckler expects it, getting abilities high can be a struggle for multiclassing so SAD is usually best. Mind you, pretty much guaranteed sneak attack and then a way to get out of melee range synergises very well with Booming Blade (especially as you can add sneak attack damage to the booming blade attack). If you want reliable melee damage output and a way to avoid getting hit too often (you will be squishy for a melee character) that's the route I recommend. In which case, don't go too far in rogue and focus on honing your spells as a Bladesinger, getting that versatility from wizard which is what will really make you shine.
Chilling kinda vibe.
Jack of All Trades adds half of your Proficiency Bonus, which I'd think qualifies for the Reliable Talent that applies "Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus", but I wouldn't fight your ruling at the table.
(I did spot an error in my previous post: Half-proficiency with a 20 Dex & 20 Cha would have a 23 Initiative on a roll of 10... but a Harengon with the same build would have a minimum of 26 on all Initiative checks.)
Arcane Trickster especially considering the 10 charisma and 16 intelligence. One third of your arcane trickster levels will stack with bladesinger levels for spell slots and Arcane Trickster is the best Rogue subclass even when not considering this.
Number of wizard levels depends on what you want. The Bladesinger extra attack is awesome, also from purely a power/combat point of view there will never be a time you would be better off with a Rogue level than a Wizard Level when it comes to combat. So if it is combat you care about take as many Wizard levels as you can.
As far as higher level Rogue abilities you won't get much out of Uncanny Dodge because shield, absorb elements or silvery barbs will usually be a better use of your reaction. Evasion is likewise less powerful because you have absorb elements. So your big reasons for staying Rogue are expertise at level 6 and Reliable talent.
So I would break it down like this:
If you are primarily concerned about combat stop Rogue at 4 and max Wizard
If you want a mix of combat and skills take Wizard to level 6 and then Rogue after that.
If you are mostly concerned about skills stop wizard at level 2.
Do Eladrin get Elf weapon proficiencies? If so I would trade to get hand crossbow, that is the missile weapon you really want as a bladesinger.
Hmmmm... On further inspection it looks like by and large the community take my stance on that ruling, but Jeremy Crawford has said on twitter that your reading is correct. So I would check with your DM to see how they will rule that one.
Chilling kinda vibe.
The Sage Advice Compendium specifically says you can't use them together: