Ever wonder why warlocks get magic stone? Imagine your pc refusing to give a gold piece to the spooky goblin beggar in town. On the way to the dungeon you discover that goblin is a 3rd level warlock when an imp appears out of nowhere and hits you with a rock for 1d6+cha then turns invisible. Then moves and does it again next round. This is because the warlock is hiding within 100 feet. They can cast a touch spell (magic stone) through their familiar, and with pact of the chain gets them an imp. Investment of the chain master isn't necessary for this trick but we'll get back to it. The warlock readies an action to tell their familiar to attack. On the familiar's turn the warlock orders the attack, the imp uses it's reaction to throw the rock, then uses it's action to turn invisible, then moves. Eventually the victims will figure out to ready a return shot of their own then it probably becomes a contest of stealth v perception to see if the imp gets shot. Hurray! Except the warlock can get the imp back by burning a spell slot. But they'll probably be content to use that slot to cast Invisibility and come back later as a minor recurring villain.
For a PC, with investment of the chain master, they can cast a spell with their action, be it eblast, or chill touch, or a spell slot, then use their bonus to have the imp flying overhead throw a rock (presuming they've been casting magic stone every 6 rounds as they walked up). Interestingly with chill touch and magic stone the dpr is almost as high as agonizing blast, and the bad guy gets disadvantage on attacks. Remember the worst invocation on the list, undying servitude, which got nerfed for fear of warlocks spamming animate dead, so now all you can do with it is get one skeleton or zombie for a day? Give that zombie a rock (last sentence of zombie is they can use weapons). Now you have a zombie and an imp throwing rocks while you cast spells. The zombie can also set off traps and get arrested in town while your warlock runs away if their scams go awry. It doesn't use a slot and it lasts 24 hours. Undying servitude is still terrible not gonna lie, but you have an extra invocation if you don't take agonizing blast. Heck cast a real conjure with one of your slots it won't interfere with your zombie.
If you do have access to real animate dead (5 lvls death cleric or wizard and 1 lvl druid or magic initiate) or you're a druid with conjure woodland beings, you can arm three zombies or satyrs with magic stones per round (if your wis is 18 it's still more damage than the satyrs do with their bows, and it's magic damage). Your bonus action is now doing 3d6 + 3x your wis bonus. Main action is free go nuts. Finally of course there's the scenario that doesn't happen much anymore where low level characters have a monster that's immune to normal damage. Give a magic stone to up to three nonmagical people per round. Have fun, and remember, throwing magic stones with invisible devils is for everyone. Well actually just warlocks.
Why is that better than the goblin ordering his imp to sting?
Magic stone also creates the stones it does not throw them. So when the goblin casts the spell through the imp the imp touches some pebbles that become magical. The goblin would then order the goblin to throw one using the goblins readied action and the imps reaction.
How are you getting a cantrip with a 1 minute duration to last 24 hours? I missed that part somewhere
The "24 hour duration" is how long you can control the Undead Servant from Animate Dead cast via the Eldritch Invocation: Undying Servitude (thus not requiring a spell slot slot), not Magic Stone's duration.
Sorry for the confusion, I was saying the zombie from undying servitude lasts 24 hours, as opposed to a conjuring spell which are generally only 1 hour. You are correct magic stone only lasts 1 minute, and you'll be casting it every other round if you have a familiar and a zombie throwing your rocks.
Lol yeah it's definitely not a GREAT cantrip... however as noted above your rock throwing familiar works great with you casting agonizing blast... which means you are now punching ABOVE normal agonizing blast dpr. No spell slots involved. If you want to cast Hex as well the bonus action gets used up that round, but having too many uses for your bonus action is a good problem to have.
No spell slots involved, just eldritch invocations and a cantrip pick that depend on a familiar with 10 hp not getting massacred before your first turn in combat.
Its still a lot of investment for a familiar attack that is marginally better than the attack warlock familiars already get.
I have to say - for a not-super-optimzed idea, this is fun.
I play a bard that's used his Secrets to pick Hex and Eldritch Blast. Why? Because in combat, he mostly casts a single concentration spell, and then has rather piddly spells to toss around while maintaining that. With Hex + EB, he can sort of machine gun away at enemies (and always with advantage, cause we have a Wolf barbarian).
Is that brilliant optimization? Hell no. But it's fun, and hugely satisfying because rolling at least 4 d20's each round get's a lot of crits - and those actually hurt.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Magic Stone has its uses by design in some modules:
Magic Stone is a phenomenal tool if you're playing the Out of the Abyss module. Since you start with no weapons, armor, etc. and Either have to brave TPK setting to try and recover it during a jailbreak, or decide to forego it and pick up EQ from looted bodies/the first settlement you reach. Magic Stone in the meantime gives all your party ways to consistently put up damage while staying out of harm's way.
Outside of module specific designs:
1. It is a magical damage when you're low level and need to overcome resistance to non-magical and don't have enough magic weapons.
2. It allows you to make the worthless NPCs that you have to essentially babysit in battle so they don't die have a purpose and not be 100% worthless.
3. Its action economy is actually useful as a bonus action vs EX: true strike as an action
4. Let's be honest, most warlocks have a +5 cha bonus since they don't need ANY other stat. So this is a surefire 6+ dmg attack.
5. Magic Stone can stack with Sharpshooter *provided* you are proficient in "improvised weapons" for throwing them, or "slings" for using a sling. (sharp shooter says attack with ranged weapon, not make a ranged weapon attack)
Does it scale way for higher levels? no. Is it useful when you're higher levels? Not nearly as much. But early game, it can be a source of ammo when you are low/don't have any, give NPCs a purpose, or just be a way to overcome resistance to non-magical damage. To the OP's point: *It is better than you think* Fact.
Its a really good cantrip for 1-4 and still pretty on par for 5-10 if you have a +4 or 5 stat bonus.
Another use for a wizard who can pick up this spell (through artificer MC or MI) is to upcast tiny servant to lvl 4 so you have 3 of them, give them standing orders to throw any magic stones you create at anyone attacking the party. So bonus action create 3 stones, drop them as a free action so the tiny servants can grab them. That's effectively 3 1d6+4 or 5 attacks as a bonus action each round (average say 10-15 dpr and anywhere up to 30+ with all hits and a crit or two)
Its a really good cantrip for 1-4 and still pretty on par for 5-10 if you have a +4 or 5 stat bonus.
Another use for a wizard who can pick up this spell (through artificer MC or MI) is to upcast tiny servant to lvl 4 so you have 3 of them, give them standing orders to throw any magic stones you create at anyone attacking the party. So bonus action create 3 stones, drop them as a free action so the tiny servants can grab them. That's effectively 3 1d6+4 or 5 attacks as a bonus action each round (average say 10-15 dpr and anywhere up to 30+ with all hits and a crit or two)
I don't think you can use tiny servant in this way. Under attack/save on the spell description, it says "none." It unfortunately doesn't specify in the description that it can't attack (which is in the spell description for unseen servant), but, the "none" seems to imply that the tiny servant can't attack.
No spell slots involved, just eldritch invocations and a cantrip pick that depend on a familiar with 10 hp not getting massacred before your first turn in combat.
Its still a lot of investment for a familiar attack that is marginally better than the attack warlock familiars already get.
That got me thinking... your familiar could move, then ready its action to turn invisible after you make it attack. Then on your turn you use your bonus action to make it attack with its reaction and poof it immediately goes invisible again. On its turn it moves and readies turn invisible again. It's not perfect but it's better than floating in one spot waiting to get shot.
No spell slots involved, just eldritch invocations and a cantrip pick that depend on a familiar with 10 hp not getting massacred before your first turn in combat.
Its still a lot of investment for a familiar attack that is marginally better than the attack warlock familiars already get.
That got me thinking... your familiar could move, then ready its action to turn invisible after you make it attack. Then on your turn you use your bonus action to make it attack with its reaction and poof it immediately goes invisible again. On its turn it moves and readies turn invisible again. It's not perfect but it's better than floating in one spot waiting to get shot.
If Im going to use a 3rd or 4th level spell slot, most damaging spells or a good control spell like Web will usually have a bigger pay off without a bunch of set up. But it could be a fun thing to do for an ambush.
Its a really good cantrip for 1-4 and still pretty on par for 5-10 if you have a +4 or 5 stat bonus.
Another use for a wizard who can pick up this spell (through artificer MC or MI) is to upcast tiny servant to lvl 4 so you have 3 of them, give them standing orders to throw any magic stones you create at anyone attacking the party. So bonus action create 3 stones, drop them as a free action so the tiny servants can grab them. That's effectively 3 1d6+4 or 5 attacks as a bonus action each round (average say 10-15 dpr and anywhere up to 30+ with all hits and a crit or two)
I don't think you can use tiny servant in this way. Under attack/save on the spell description, it says "none." It unfortunately doesn't specify in the description that it can't attack (which is in the spell description for unseen servant), but, the "none" seems to imply that the tiny servant can't attack.
The spell tiny servant doesn't have an attack because it is only summoning something that lasts for 8 hours, the actual tiny servant ]does have a slam attack, so it makes sense that it could throw a magic stone.
If Im going to use a 3rd or 4th level spell slot, most damaging spells or a good control spell like Web will usually have a bigger pay off without a bunch of set up. But it could be a fun thing to do for an ambush.
Not sure if you're talking about tiny servant or not, if you are tiny servants last 8 hours. And if you do MC artificer1/wizardX at level 7 you'll have a 4th level slot but no 4th level spells.
Ah you're right readying an action ties up the reaction... Tiny Servant is very interesting... despite the spell not mentioning attacking, the stat block does show an attack as you outline so I would agree it looks like you can make them attack. The only question then becomes, do they have hands? It sounds to me like they do as they 'sprout arms and legs', and to me the difference between an arm and a leg is that an arm has a hand, but you could also just start by animating a little statue that DID have hands.
Ever wonder why warlocks get magic stone? Imagine your pc refusing to give a gold piece to the spooky goblin beggar in town. On the way to the dungeon you discover that goblin is a 3rd level warlock when an imp appears out of nowhere and hits you with a rock for 1d6+cha then turns invisible. Then moves and does it again next round. This is because the warlock is hiding within 100 feet. They can cast a touch spell (magic stone) through their familiar, and with pact of the chain gets them an imp. Investment of the chain master isn't necessary for this trick but we'll get back to it. The warlock readies an action to tell their familiar to attack. On the familiar's turn the warlock orders the attack, the imp uses it's reaction to throw the rock, then uses it's action to turn invisible, then moves. Eventually the victims will figure out to ready a return shot of their own then it probably becomes a contest of stealth v perception to see if the imp gets shot. Hurray! Except the warlock can get the imp back by burning a spell slot. But they'll probably be content to use that slot to cast Invisibility and come back later as a minor recurring villain.
For a PC, with investment of the chain master, they can cast a spell with their action, be it eblast, or chill touch, or a spell slot, then use their bonus to have the imp flying overhead throw a rock (presuming they've been casting magic stone every 6 rounds as they walked up). Interestingly with chill touch and magic stone the dpr is almost as high as agonizing blast, and the bad guy gets disadvantage on attacks. Remember the worst invocation on the list, undying servitude, which got nerfed for fear of warlocks spamming animate dead, so now all you can do with it is get one skeleton or zombie for a day? Give that zombie a rock (last sentence of zombie is they can use weapons). Now you have a zombie and an imp throwing rocks while you cast spells. The zombie can also set off traps and get arrested in town while your warlock runs away if their scams go awry. It doesn't use a slot and it lasts 24 hours. Undying servitude is still terrible not gonna lie, but you have an extra invocation if you don't take agonizing blast. Heck cast a real conjure with one of your slots it won't interfere with your zombie.
If you do have access to real animate dead (5 lvls death cleric or wizard and 1 lvl druid or magic initiate) or you're a druid with conjure woodland beings, you can arm three zombies or satyrs with magic stones per round (if your wis is 18 it's still more damage than the satyrs do with their bows, and it's magic damage). Your bonus action is now doing 3d6 + 3x your wis bonus. Main action is free go nuts. Finally of course there's the scenario that doesn't happen much anymore where low level characters have a monster that's immune to normal damage. Give a magic stone to up to three nonmagical people per round. Have fun, and remember, throwing magic stones with invisible devils is for everyone. Well actually just warlocks.
Why is that better than the goblin ordering his imp to sting?
Magic stone also creates the stones it does not throw them. So when the goblin casts the spell through the imp the imp touches some pebbles that become magical. The goblin would then order the goblin to throw one using the goblins readied action and the imps reaction.
Great Information. I like how it last 24 hours.
How are you getting a cantrip with a 1 minute duration to last 24 hours? I missed that part somewhere
This is a lot of theory craft for what amounts to still not a great cantrip.
If you need leveled spells and multiple turns to reach its full potential, then its just weak.
Its an interesting and potentially useful spell for early campaign jail breaks, but its just not that good generally.
The "24 hour duration" is how long you can control the Undead Servant from Animate Dead cast via the Eldritch Invocation: Undying Servitude (thus not requiring a spell slot slot), not Magic Stone's duration.
Sorry for the confusion, I was saying the zombie from undying servitude lasts 24 hours, as opposed to a conjuring spell which are generally only 1 hour. You are correct magic stone only lasts 1 minute, and you'll be casting it every other round if you have a familiar and a zombie throwing your rocks.
Lol yeah it's definitely not a GREAT cantrip... however as noted above your rock throwing familiar works great with you casting agonizing blast... which means you are now punching ABOVE normal agonizing blast dpr. No spell slots involved. If you want to cast Hex as well the bonus action gets used up that round, but having too many uses for your bonus action is a good problem to have.
No spell slots involved, just eldritch invocations and a cantrip pick that depend on a familiar with 10 hp not getting massacred before your first turn in combat.
Its still a lot of investment for a familiar attack that is marginally better than the attack warlock familiars already get.
I have to say - for a not-super-optimzed idea, this is fun.
I play a bard that's used his Secrets to pick Hex and Eldritch Blast. Why? Because in combat, he mostly casts a single concentration spell, and then has rather piddly spells to toss around while maintaining that. With Hex + EB, he can sort of machine gun away at enemies (and always with advantage, cause we have a Wolf barbarian).
Is that brilliant optimization? Hell no. But it's fun, and hugely satisfying because rolling at least 4 d20's each round get's a lot of crits - and those actually hurt.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Magic Stone has its uses by design in some modules:
Magic Stone is a phenomenal tool if you're playing the Out of the Abyss module. Since you start with no weapons, armor, etc. and Either have to brave TPK setting to try and recover it during a jailbreak, or decide to forego it and pick up EQ from looted bodies/the first settlement you reach. Magic Stone in the meantime gives all your party ways to consistently put up damage while staying out of harm's way.
Outside of module specific designs:
1. It is a magical damage when you're low level and need to overcome resistance to non-magical and don't have enough magic weapons.
2. It allows you to make the worthless NPCs that you have to essentially babysit in battle so they don't die have a purpose and not be 100% worthless.
3. Its action economy is actually useful as a bonus action vs EX: true strike as an action
4. Let's be honest, most warlocks have a +5 cha bonus since they don't need ANY other stat. So this is a surefire 6+ dmg attack.
5. Magic Stone can stack with Sharpshooter *provided* you are proficient in "improvised weapons" for throwing them, or "slings" for using a sling. (sharp shooter says attack with ranged weapon, not make a ranged weapon attack)
Does it scale way for higher levels? no. Is it useful when you're higher levels? Not nearly as much. But early game, it can be a source of ammo when you are low/don't have any, give NPCs a purpose, or just be a way to overcome resistance to non-magical damage. To the OP's point: *It is better than you think* Fact.
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Its a really good cantrip for 1-4 and still pretty on par for 5-10 if you have a +4 or 5 stat bonus.
Another use for a wizard who can pick up this spell (through artificer MC or MI) is to upcast tiny servant to lvl 4 so you have 3 of them, give them standing orders to throw any magic stones you create at anyone attacking the party. So bonus action create 3 stones, drop them as a free action so the tiny servants can grab them. That's effectively 3 1d6+4 or 5 attacks as a bonus action each round (average say 10-15 dpr and anywhere up to 30+ with all hits and a crit or two)
I don't think you can use tiny servant in this way. Under attack/save on the spell description, it says "none." It unfortunately doesn't specify in the description that it can't attack (which is in the spell description for unseen servant), but, the "none" seems to imply that the tiny servant can't attack.
Oh wow that is brilliant put those slacker quest npcs that are always hanging around to work!
That got me thinking... your familiar could move, then ready its action to turn invisible after you make it attack. Then on your turn you use your bonus action to make it attack with its reaction and poof it immediately goes invisible again. On its turn it moves and readies turn invisible again. It's not perfect but it's better than floating in one spot waiting to get shot.
It combines super great with Tiny Servants as well.
Executing a readied action uses the creature's Reaction, which means once your familiar uses its Reaction to attack it no longer has a Reaction to spend on it's readied action until its next turn.
If Im going to use a 3rd or 4th level spell slot, most damaging spells or a good control spell like Web will usually have a bigger pay off without a bunch of set up. But it could be a fun thing to do for an ambush.
The spell tiny servant doesn't have an attack because it is only summoning something that lasts for 8 hours, the actual tiny servant ]does have a slam attack, so it makes sense that it could throw a magic stone.
Not sure if you're talking about tiny servant or not, if you are tiny servants last 8 hours. And if you do MC artificer1/wizardX at level 7 you'll have a 4th level slot but no 4th level spells.
Ah you're right readying an action ties up the reaction... Tiny Servant is very interesting... despite the spell not mentioning attacking, the stat block does show an attack as you outline so I would agree it looks like you can make them attack. The only question then becomes, do they have hands? It sounds to me like they do as they 'sprout arms and legs', and to me the difference between an arm and a leg is that an arm has a hand, but you could also just start by animating a little statue that DID have hands.