Besides Meteor Swarm, is Hellish Rebuke the strongest possible spell? I mean, most other spells at similar levels do about as much as eldritch blast
i’m still wrapping my head around things as a newer player, but it seems like as a Warlock you want to focus on boosting your Constitution, getting the tough fest and yelling “Hit me!” In the middle of every battle to use your spellslots on Hellish Rebuke and just use Eldritch Blast the rest of the time, since EB when optimized does about as much as most spells. That’s kind of how my Celestial Warlock is being built anyway to maximize Searing Vengeance. I mean, I maxed my Charisma first, but still.
Obviously there are obstacles to this. You can’t wait to be hit all the time because other players will die, and some battles can have a time/turn limit before something bad happens (I had to stop Tierna from coming back). Plus there are things like elemental resistances or immunities to fire. But again, don’t most leveled spells do about as much damage as a maximized Eldritch Blast?
Furthermore, if you multiclass, you probably want to blow most of your high level spells on Hellish Rebuke. Again, there are similar restraints and certain spells that fit certain levels better than others, such as chain lightning. But the fact remains, it is a powerful spell.
So for clarity in my strategy, my character build at this point already relies on high health and charisma anyway. So is relying on Hellish Rebuke for all my warlock spell slots a good strategy, or do I go ahead and mix it up with other spells? (Even though… you know… eldritch blast.) What are some other spells worth using instead of or alongside of these two?
Not really sure why Hellish Rebuke has such value in your opinion. The damage is meagre, the spell has a saving throw, fire is a very common elemental resistance, you have to get hit to proc it and warlocks have four spell slots at the very most—usually only two for the most commonly played levels. At the levels characters have access to Meteor Swarm, you’re going to wade into battle yelling “Hit me!” to find yourself faced with two, three or even four mobs, all with multi attack who will unload 6-12 attacks between them on your d8HD, medium-armour-wearing-at-best-ass. Meanwhile, you’ll get to Hellish Rebuke one of them once for each of three to four rounds but there is a dex saving throw (one of the more common proficiencies) and there’s a good chance they’ll be resistant to fire (maybe the most common type of resistance other than poison), if not straight up immune. Furthermore, your Eldritch Blasts are at disadvantage when you are engaged by melee opponents, reducing the efficacy of your main attack. How is this even remotely comparable to Meteor Swarm—a spell that deals gobs of damage, at least some of which is not so commonly resisted, to gobs of targets from an undetectable range?? I guess they’re both dex saves…
I guess i never mentioned multiple opponents the n the caveats. If they do gang up on you that would be bad of course. I guess it just depends there. Still it is more damage than the other spells I’ve seen. Obviously spells can hat hot multiple opponents have their time and place, but as far as against single targets If you can Hellish Rebuke, I would think you Hellish Rebuke. The only other reasons I can think of why you might not would be status problems (lesser/greater restoration), being trapped (misty step), or a dead ally (revivify.) Those are pretty specific to my subclass too; I would think non Celestial Warlocks have less too. By all means though: correct me if I’m wrong. I’m still trying to learn.
Good point on Eldritch Blast at close range also. Is there really an alternative cantrip though? Sorry if its’ a stupid question; I’m still getting the hang of a lot of this despite the oneshots I’ve been in.
At max level for warlocks, Hellish Rebuke averages 30 damage (6d10), half on a save and has a good chance of being resisted. Worst case scenario, that means a whole 7 damage for one of your very precious spell slots. Meanwhile, it’s a virtual certainty that even only a single mob with a single attack at the level where your warlock is rocking level 5 slots will beat you down for way more than 7 damage in whatever round it provokes your Hellish Rebuke.
If you really want to pursue this strategy, Armour of Agathys will do you so much better. At max level, it’s a guaranteed 25 cold damage when a mob hits you, no save for half and much less likely to be resisted. You might even get to damage more than one mob—Armour of Agathys inflicts its full damage until all of the temporary hit points from it are gone. In addition to Armour of Agathys, PFG&E, Hold Person, Silence, Suggestion, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Bigby’s Hand or Hold Monster are far better options than Hellish Rebuke for measly 7 fire damage in most combat situations at Meteor Swarm levels. That’s not even mentioning utility spells.
I never learn Hellish Rebuke as a warlock. TBH, it’s little more than a trap option. Don’t let the d10’s for damage fool you ;)
P.S. you don’t need an alternate to Eldritch Blast if you simply stay out of melee (highly recommended). Again, if you insist on this strategy, Sacred Flame from your subclass is slightly better when you’re in melee in that it is a saving throw rather than an attack roll so no disadvantage to you there.
I guess I see your point. Why damage them at all when you can neutralize them in other ways. I do already have hold person, suggestion and hypnotic pattern and will get hold monster through Chains of Cacceri at level 18 (Shroud of Shadow at 15 seems like the better play first)
I’m not crqzy about Armor of Agathis since you have to be next to the target for it to do damage. At least it protects you for a few hits, but 25 HP really doesn’t seem like much to me
I do have Sacred Flame via Celestial Warlock, so I’ll keep that in mind should I ever be trapped in melee range.
I’m not crqzy about Armor of Agathis since you have to be next to the target for it to do damage. At least it protects you for a few hits, but 25 HP really doesn’t seem like much to me
You would go out of your way to take the Tough feat but don't thing 25 hp is much of a benefit? Tough gives you less HP than Armour of Agathys for most of your career as a warlock and it is a regained each long rest whereas Armour of Agathys is rechargable as 1 action using spellslots that recharge every short rest.
But Armor only gives 25 and Tough gives 40. Not all at once sure, but still. Anyway, health in particular is important to me due to Searing Vengeance at level 14 recovering half of it. I see what you mean though; it’s kind of ironic.
Sorry i didn’t reply sooner. Everything seemed to switch around where I get my notifications.
You mean at level 20, though. That's a very unfair comparison. Out of your 20 levels (assuming you reach level 20), Armor of Agathys will give you more hit points than Tough from levels 1 to 12, which is more than half of the levels. Then at 13 it's only 26 vs 25. You won't really feel the difference until the very highest levels of your campaign. And even then, Armor of Agathys is still dealing a bunch of damage with each melee attack you receive.
That said, to answer your original question: No, Hellish Rebuke is not the strongest possible spell. Not even kind of close. Dozens of spells deal more damage than Hellish Rebuke. Actually, Hellish Rebuke is on the weaker side, especially for warlocks. You don't have enough spell slots to waste them casting Hellish Rebuke. And you said "The only other reasons I can think of why you might not would be status problems (lesser/greater restoration), being trapped (misty step), or a dead ally (revivify.)" Well, if you spam all your spell slots casting Hellish Rebuke (since you want to yell "hit me!" and get hit as much as possible), then by the time someone needs to heal a status condition, or you're trapped, or an ally dies, you're often gonna be like "Oh, damn, sorry guys, I don't any spell slots left."
And then you say "Those are pretty specific to my subclass too; I would think non Celestial Warlocks have less too. " Well, no. Other warlocks would get things like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Cone of Cold, which would consistently out-damage Hellish Rebuke. Even if they only hit a single target.
I know you're a newer player and you're still trying to learn, so it's perfectly fine to ask. The strategy that you're using is...usable, if your campaign isn't too difficult. What I would say is that you're dealing less damage than other dedicated damage dealers. Like others said, it has a bad saving throw (Dex), a bad damage type (fire), it's single target, but you can't even choose the target or use it whenever you want. You need to hope that the target you want attacks you and hits you. There are tons of ways to deal more damage, with other spells or other builds
My advice would be:
- Don't limit your spellcasting to Hellish Rebuke. Spellcasting is the most powerful feature in the game, by far. And it's honestly not because of the damage. You can do extremely powerful and useful things with it, both in and out of combat. Dealing some extra damage is just not worth it. Any martial can do that, and probably better.
- Don't use a strategy that requires you to constantly get hit. Even with the Tough feat, you're not a tank. If enemies do what you want and focus their attacks on you, you're gonna be dropping to 0 hit points a lot. If they don't and instead attack other allies, then you're not casting Hellish Rebuke.
- If you like Hellish Rebuke, by all means, keep it. But don't make it your main strategy. Use it circumstantially, whenever it makes sense. For example, if an enemy with low hit points that has multi-attack hits you, you can use Hellish Rebuke and possibly kill it before it gets to use all of its attacks. You don't have many spell slots, so whenever you spend one, you want it to have a big impact.
I hope this helped. <3
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Besides Meteor Swarm, is Hellish Rebuke the strongest possible spell? I mean, most other spells at similar levels do about as much as eldritch blast
i’m still wrapping my head around things as a newer player, but it seems like as a Warlock you want to focus on boosting your Constitution, getting the tough fest and yelling “Hit me!” In the middle of every battle to use your spellslots on Hellish Rebuke and just use Eldritch Blast the rest of the time, since EB when optimized does about as much as most spells. That’s kind of how my Celestial Warlock is being built anyway to maximize Searing Vengeance. I mean, I maxed my Charisma first, but still.
Obviously there are obstacles to this. You can’t wait to be hit all the time because other players will die, and some battles can have a time/turn limit before something bad happens (I had to stop Tierna from coming back). Plus there are things like elemental resistances or immunities to fire. But again, don’t most leveled spells do about as much damage as a maximized Eldritch Blast?
Furthermore, if you multiclass, you probably want to blow most of your high level spells on Hellish Rebuke. Again, there are similar restraints and certain spells that fit certain levels better than others, such as chain lightning. But the fact remains, it is a powerful spell.
So for clarity in my strategy, my character build at this point already relies on high health and charisma anyway. So is relying on Hellish Rebuke for all my warlock spell slots a good strategy, or do I go ahead and mix it up with other spells? (Even though… you know… eldritch blast.) What are some other spells worth using instead of or alongside of these two?
Not really sure why Hellish Rebuke has such value in your opinion. The damage is meagre, the spell has a saving throw, fire is a very common elemental resistance, you have to get hit to proc it and warlocks have four spell slots at the very most—usually only two for the most commonly played levels. At the levels characters have access to Meteor Swarm, you’re going to wade into battle yelling “Hit me!” to find yourself faced with two, three or even four mobs, all with multi attack who will unload 6-12 attacks between them on your d8HD, medium-armour-wearing-at-best-ass. Meanwhile, you’ll get to Hellish Rebuke one of them once for each of three to four rounds but there is a dex saving throw (one of the more common proficiencies) and there’s a good chance they’ll be resistant to fire (maybe the most common type of resistance other than poison), if not straight up immune. Furthermore, your Eldritch Blasts are at disadvantage when you are engaged by melee opponents, reducing the efficacy of your main attack. How is this even remotely comparable to Meteor Swarm—a spell that deals gobs of damage, at least some of which is not so commonly resisted, to gobs of targets from an undetectable range?? I guess they’re both dex saves…
I guess i never mentioned multiple opponents the n the caveats. If they do gang up on you that would be bad of course. I guess it just depends there. Still it is more damage than the other spells I’ve seen. Obviously spells can hat hot multiple opponents have their time and place, but as far as against single targets If you can Hellish Rebuke, I would think you Hellish Rebuke. The only other reasons I can think of why you might not would be status problems (lesser/greater restoration), being trapped (misty step), or a dead ally (revivify.) Those are pretty specific to my subclass too; I would think non Celestial Warlocks have less too. By all means though: correct me if I’m wrong. I’m still trying to learn.
Good point on Eldritch Blast at close range also. Is there really an alternative cantrip though? Sorry if its’ a stupid question; I’m still getting the hang of a lot of this despite the oneshots I’ve been in.
At max level for warlocks, Hellish Rebuke averages 30 damage (6d10), half on a save and has a good chance of being resisted. Worst case scenario, that means a whole 7 damage for one of your very precious spell slots. Meanwhile, it’s a virtual certainty that even only a single mob with a single attack at the level where your warlock is rocking level 5 slots will beat you down for way more than 7 damage in whatever round it provokes your Hellish Rebuke.
If you really want to pursue this strategy, Armour of Agathys will do you so much better. At max level, it’s a guaranteed 25 cold damage when a mob hits you, no save for half and much less likely to be resisted. You might even get to damage more than one mob—Armour of Agathys inflicts its full damage until all of the temporary hit points from it are gone. In addition to Armour of Agathys, PFG&E, Hold Person, Silence, Suggestion, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, Banishment, Bigby’s Hand or Hold Monster are far better options than Hellish Rebuke for measly 7 fire damage in most combat situations at Meteor Swarm levels. That’s not even mentioning utility spells.
I never learn Hellish Rebuke as a warlock. TBH, it’s little more than a trap option. Don’t let the d10’s for damage fool you ;)
P.S. you don’t need an alternate to Eldritch Blast if you simply stay out of melee (highly recommended). Again, if you insist on this strategy, Sacred Flame from your subclass is slightly better when you’re in melee in that it is a saving throw rather than an attack roll so no disadvantage to you there.
I guess I see your point. Why damage them at all when you can neutralize them in other ways. I do already have hold person, suggestion and hypnotic pattern and will get hold monster through Chains of Cacceri at level 18 (Shroud of Shadow at 15 seems like the better play first)
I’m not crqzy about Armor of Agathis since you have to be next to the target for it to do damage. At least it protects you for a few hits, but 25 HP really doesn’t seem like much to me
I do have Sacred Flame via Celestial Warlock, so I’ll keep that in mind should I ever be trapped in melee range.
Thank you for being polite about this whole thing
You would go out of your way to take the Tough feat but don't thing 25 hp is much of a benefit? Tough gives you less HP than Armour of Agathys for most of your career as a warlock and it is a regained each long rest whereas Armour of Agathys is rechargable as 1 action using spellslots that recharge every short rest.
But Armor only gives 25 and Tough gives 40. Not all at once sure, but still. Anyway, health in particular is important to me due to Searing Vengeance at level 14 recovering half of it. I see what you mean though; it’s kind of ironic.
Sorry i didn’t reply sooner. Everything seemed to switch around where I get my notifications.
You mean at level 20, though. That's a very unfair comparison. Out of your 20 levels (assuming you reach level 20), Armor of Agathys will give you more hit points than Tough from levels 1 to 12, which is more than half of the levels. Then at 13 it's only 26 vs 25. You won't really feel the difference until the very highest levels of your campaign. And even then, Armor of Agathys is still dealing a bunch of damage with each melee attack you receive.
That said, to answer your original question: No, Hellish Rebuke is not the strongest possible spell. Not even kind of close. Dozens of spells deal more damage than Hellish Rebuke. Actually, Hellish Rebuke is on the weaker side, especially for warlocks. You don't have enough spell slots to waste them casting Hellish Rebuke. And you said "The only other reasons I can think of why you might not would be status problems (lesser/greater restoration), being trapped (misty step), or a dead ally (revivify.)" Well, if you spam all your spell slots casting Hellish Rebuke (since you want to yell "hit me!" and get hit as much as possible), then by the time someone needs to heal a status condition, or you're trapped, or an ally dies, you're often gonna be like "Oh, damn, sorry guys, I don't any spell slots left."
And then you say "Those are pretty specific to my subclass too; I would think non Celestial Warlocks have less too. " Well, no. Other warlocks would get things like Fireball, Lightning Bolt, or Cone of Cold, which would consistently out-damage Hellish Rebuke. Even if they only hit a single target.
I know you're a newer player and you're still trying to learn, so it's perfectly fine to ask. The strategy that you're using is...usable, if your campaign isn't too difficult. What I would say is that you're dealing less damage than other dedicated damage dealers. Like others said, it has a bad saving throw (Dex), a bad damage type (fire), it's single target, but you can't even choose the target or use it whenever you want. You need to hope that the target you want attacks you and hits you. There are tons of ways to deal more damage, with other spells or other builds
My advice would be:
- Don't limit your spellcasting to Hellish Rebuke. Spellcasting is the most powerful feature in the game, by far. And it's honestly not because of the damage. You can do extremely powerful and useful things with it, both in and out of combat. Dealing some extra damage is just not worth it. Any martial can do that, and probably better.
- Don't use a strategy that requires you to constantly get hit. Even with the Tough feat, you're not a tank. If enemies do what you want and focus their attacks on you, you're gonna be dropping to 0 hit points a lot. If they don't and instead attack other allies, then you're not casting Hellish Rebuke.
- If you like Hellish Rebuke, by all means, keep it. But don't make it your main strategy. Use it circumstantially, whenever it makes sense. For example, if an enemy with low hit points that has multi-attack hits you, you can use Hellish Rebuke and possibly kill it before it gets to use all of its attacks. You don't have many spell slots, so whenever you spend one, you want it to have a big impact.
I hope this helped. <3