DM and party are experimenting with our first 2024 game, and I decided to play actual, factual martial melee for the first time in ages. Encounters are tailored to our power as a group, typically.
I have been looking over and running my dyslexic fueled math and logic over TWF vs Shield + weap. I have been unable to really figure out if there is an appreciable difference by tier 2 and beyond? I will be playing Paladin, with Oathbreaker subclass (yes, not fully 2024 compliant, but its been Ok'ed and tweaked a smidge.)
So, is there a significant damage difference between TWF and its associated feat(s), and limitations on weapons that can be used for the BA attack; and what I am leaning towards which is using the Brutal Grip feat from Valda's Spire of Secrets; plus 2024's Great Weapon Master with a Maul, or Greatsword.
After a lot of reading, TWF seems ok , maybe a little better in tier 1 and early tier 2? But after that, GWM would be better? (Plus Brutal Grip allowing me to one-hand a heavy weapon and then use a shield too.) Except for maybe at level 11 with Paladin when they get the Divine strike per hit?
Alternatively, with the Brutal Grip feat, I can Maul or Greatsword in one hand, and Scimitar in the other and DW +GWM? Would still need to pick up Dual Wielder/TWF feats.
The problem with feats on a Paladin is that you need ASIs so bad. So lots of Pally players will stick with basic sword and board or greatsword attacks and depend on smites for damage. Caster levels (bard/sorc) fuel smites and blade pact warlock lets you stick to Charisma. Avoid bonus action features, you need it to smite.
DM and party are experimenting with our first 2024 game, and I decided to play actual, factual martial melee for the first time in ages. Encounters are tailored to our power as a group, typically.
I have been looking over and running my dyslexic fueled math and logic over TWF vs Shield + weap. I have been unable to really figure out if there is an appreciable difference by tier 2 and beyond? I will be playing Paladin, with Oathbreaker subclass (yes, not fully 2024 compliant, but its been Ok'ed and tweaked a smidge.)
So, is there a significant damage difference between TWF and its associated feat(s), and limitations on weapons that can be used for the BA attack; and what I am leaning towards which is using the Brutal Grip feat from Valda's Spire of Secrets; plus 2024's Great Weapon Master with a Maul, or Greatsword.
After a lot of reading, TWF seems ok , maybe a little better in tier 1 and early tier 2? But after that, GWM would be better? (Plus Brutal Grip allowing me to one-hand a heavy weapon and then use a shield too.) Except for maybe at level 11 with Paladin when they get the Divine strike per hit?
Alternatively, with the Brutal Grip feat, I can Maul or Greatsword in one hand, and Scimitar in the other and DW +GWM? Would still need to pick up Dual Wielder/TWF feats.
I would not go Oathbreaker. Current 2024 subclasses are better.
Brutal Grip would only allow you to wield a greatsword (or similar) and still use a shield. While you can hold a greatsword in one hand and a scimitar in another you cannot attack with both on the same round. Just because you have Brutal Grip it does not remove the Two-handed weapon property, and does not make the greatsword Light.
You can try to go with Nick Weapons which allow you to make two attacks during your action then leave your bonus action available for casting Smites.
Using Nick property gives you more swings so more opportunities to hit. TWF and DW give you three swings a round with stat bonuses. GWM and PM don't equate to that. Of course I could be wrong and did NOT do that math.
On the plus side of using big weapons and a shield, you get the AC bonus and can still put out a decent amount of damage compared to normal sword and board builds.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Two-Weapon Fighting can work well on a Paladin if you do not tie yourself to smiting all of the time. Getting four attacks per round, you can deal quite a lot of damage every turn by stacking your Divine Strikes with Divine Favor and Spirit Shroud. It's a different playstyle than the typical "If it's in sight, then I smite", playstyle, but it is still pretty effective. If you wanted, you could go fully dexterity based and use light armor or take Magic Initiate to get Mage Armor. With Mage Armor active, you would have 18AC at max dexterity, so it can work pretty well to be a Naked Paladin.
If you wanted, you could go fully dexterity based and use light armor or take Magic Initiate to get Mage Armor. With Mage Armor active, you would have 18AC at max dexterity, so it can work pretty well to be a Naked Paladin.
Note that the genie paladin in the brand new FR book gives you an unarmored defense option
Level 3: Genie’s Splendor
When you aren’t wearing any armor, your base Armor Class equals 10 plus your Dexterity and Charisma modifiers. You can use a Shield and still gain this benefit.
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you're going Oathbreaker then TWF with nick and dual wielder to make 4 attacks a turn is significantly better with your 7th level feature than sword and board.
Unless you take Polearm Master.
Polearm Master for spear and shield would be my approach to a sword and board Oathbreaker. It's a classic for a reason.
If you're going Oathbreaker then TWF with nick and dual wielder to make 4 attacks a turn is significantly better with your 7th level feature than sword and board.
Unless you take Polearm Master.
Polearm Master for spear and shield would be my approach to a sword and board Oathbreaker. It's a classic for a reason.
Ultimately, I think I will.
I'm guessing Graze isn't the best option? So since I have Brutal Grip, I just go with a Lance or Halberd. Eventually getting GWM (2024) as well. I don't want to go full timmy damage seeking (twf) and want to keep to character (sword and board, or in this case, big big big stick and board.)
It depends on what you're looking for. Sword and Board AC is higher and for cheaper. A +1 Shield is an Uncommon Magic Item. A +1 Armor is rare. So at tier 2, the base AC difference is about 3, in exchange for some offensive power.
Brutal Grip doesn't do that much for TWF damage. It allows half your attacks to have +1 average damage. Your off hand is still a Scimitar for Nick, and you lose Vex as a mastery. At that point, it's Topple for Battleaxe vs. Sap for Longsword.
The damage add for SnB is more significant because you get a +2.5 damage bump per attack going from Longsword or Rapier to Greatsword, and you pick up Graze which is amazing for average damage. You also get the option to use a Glaive or a Halberd.
Lance for Topple is more of a Fighter thing because they can capitalize on a Prone opponent with a full Action Surge. For a Pally, I think Graze on Polearm Master is super effective because it guarantees 12 damage per round, minimum, after level 5. You literally never have a zero damage round.
You bring out the Halberd when you see a lot of mooks in close formation. Or mounted combatants.
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DM and party are experimenting with our first 2024 game, and I decided to play actual, factual martial melee for the first time in ages. Encounters are tailored to our power as a group, typically.
I have been looking over and running my dyslexic fueled math and logic over TWF vs Shield + weap. I have been unable to really figure out if there is an appreciable difference by tier 2 and beyond? I will be playing Paladin, with Oathbreaker subclass (yes, not fully 2024 compliant, but its been Ok'ed and tweaked a smidge.)
So, is there a significant damage difference between TWF and its associated feat(s), and limitations on weapons that can be used for the BA attack; and what I am leaning towards which is using the Brutal Grip feat from Valda's Spire of Secrets; plus 2024's Great Weapon Master with a Maul, or Greatsword.
After a lot of reading, TWF seems ok , maybe a little better in tier 1 and early tier 2? But after that, GWM would be better? (Plus Brutal Grip allowing me to one-hand a heavy weapon and then use a shield too.) Except for maybe at level 11 with Paladin when they get the Divine strike per hit?
Alternatively, with the Brutal Grip feat, I can Maul or Greatsword in one hand, and Scimitar in the other and DW +GWM? Would still need to pick up Dual Wielder/TWF feats.
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
If you’re playing a 24 paladin, I’d stay away from TWF. It’s a bonus action to smite, so that’s going to really compete for that off hand attack.
Are you the only melee type? If you’ll be up front with minimal help, you might also really want that AC bump from the shield.
The problem with feats on a Paladin is that you need ASIs so bad. So lots of Pally players will stick with basic sword and board or greatsword attacks and depend on smites for damage. Caster levels (bard/sorc) fuel smites and blade pact warlock lets you stick to Charisma. Avoid bonus action features, you need it to smite.
I would not go Oathbreaker. Current 2024 subclasses are better.
Brutal Grip would only allow you to wield a greatsword (or similar) and still use a shield. While you can hold a greatsword in one hand and a scimitar in another you cannot attack with both on the same round. Just because you have Brutal Grip it does not remove the Two-handed weapon property, and does not make the greatsword Light.
You can try to go with Nick Weapons which allow you to make two attacks during your action then leave your bonus action available for casting Smites.
Using Nick property gives you more swings so more opportunities to hit. TWF and DW give you three swings a round with stat bonuses. GWM and PM don't equate to that. Of course I could be wrong and did NOT do that math.
On the plus side of using big weapons and a shield, you get the AC bonus and can still put out a decent amount of damage compared to normal sword and board builds.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Two-Weapon Fighting can work well on a Paladin if you do not tie yourself to smiting all of the time. Getting four attacks per round, you can deal quite a lot of damage every turn by stacking your Divine Strikes with Divine Favor and Spirit Shroud. It's a different playstyle than the typical "If it's in sight, then I smite", playstyle, but it is still pretty effective. If you wanted, you could go fully dexterity based and use light armor or take Magic Initiate to get Mage Armor. With Mage Armor active, you would have 18AC at max dexterity, so it can work pretty well to be a Naked Paladin.
Note that the genie paladin in the brand new FR book gives you an unarmored defense option
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you're going Oathbreaker then TWF with nick and dual wielder to make 4 attacks a turn is significantly better with your 7th level feature than sword and board.
Unless you take Polearm Master.
Polearm Master for spear and shield would be my approach to a sword and board Oathbreaker. It's a classic for a reason.
Ultimately, I think I will.
I'm guessing Graze isn't the best option? So since I have Brutal Grip, I just go with a Lance or Halberd. Eventually getting GWM (2024) as well. I don't want to go full timmy damage seeking (twf) and want to keep to character (sword and board, or in this case, big big big stick and board.)
2014 5E mostly
3.5 maybe.
It depends on what you're looking for. Sword and Board AC is higher and for cheaper. A +1 Shield is an Uncommon Magic Item. A +1 Armor is rare. So at tier 2, the base AC difference is about 3, in exchange for some offensive power.
Brutal Grip doesn't do that much for TWF damage. It allows half your attacks to have +1 average damage. Your off hand is still a Scimitar for Nick, and you lose Vex as a mastery. At that point, it's Topple for Battleaxe vs. Sap for Longsword.
The damage add for SnB is more significant because you get a +2.5 damage bump per attack going from Longsword or Rapier to Greatsword, and you pick up Graze which is amazing for average damage. You also get the option to use a Glaive or a Halberd.
Lance for Topple is more of a Fighter thing because they can capitalize on a Prone opponent with a full Action Surge. For a Pally, I think Graze on Polearm Master is super effective because it guarantees 12 damage per round, minimum, after level 5. You literally never have a zero damage round.
You bring out the Halberd when you see a lot of mooks in close formation. Or mounted combatants.