Hello and welcome. Today I have a challenge for the D&D Beyond community. We are going to create the strongest build possible, however, there's a twist!
The character we are building gets to start out with an automatic 20 in all ability scores. Yes, you heard that right. 20str, 20dex, 20con, 20wis, 20int, and 20cha. From here we are free to explore our options. What would be the best way for us to terrorize the DM with the monstrosity of a creation we can brew using official D&D 5e options (excluding the ability score generation of course!).
Thank you for all the input, I'm excited to see what we can come up with!
We'd be showing the steps of building a character from lvl 1-20 so end goal is 20 but we'd also need to determine the steps taken to get there with classes, feats, and spells (if applicable).
Full bladesinger, straight. Now their concentration is insane, their melee fantastic, and of course, you get the best spells in the game. Having 20 already means we can take fun feats like mobile, or alert to boost initiative, or double down on essentials like warcaster. Heck, even without warcaster, you have a +10 to concentration checks. At tier 1, you pretty much can't fail a save unless that damage outright kills you.
Other fun options include taking skill expert. Expertise in persuasion with 20 CHA? Now the wizard is the party face. Or athletics, be the battering ram to break down doors when you don't feel like spending a slot on knock. Or take expertise in perception so nothing escapes your notice, that'll really make the DM hate you.
Full bladesinger, straight. Now their concentration is insane, their melee fantastic, and of course, you get the best spells in the game. Having 20 already means we can take fun feats like mobile, or alert to boost initiative, or double down on essentials like warcaster. Heck, even without warcaster, you have a +10 to concentration checks. At tier 1, you pretty much can't fail a save unless that damage outright kills you.
Other fun options include taking skill expert. Expertise in persuasion with 20 CHA? Now the wizard is the party face. Or athletics, be the battering ram to break down doors when you don't feel like spending a slot on knock. Or take expertise in perception so nothing escapes your notice, that'll really make the DM hate you.
Glad we think similarly. I thought a bladesinger looked pretty strong. A MAD caster that does a great job using feats. What more could you ask for!?
Maybe add 1 level of Monk in with the Bladesinger, you get 20 AC from Unarmored Defense as opposed to the 18 from Mage Armor + DEX and you are always guaranteed a Bonus Action Unarmed Strike to use for the turns where you have nothing to do with your Bonus Action assuming you are using something like a quarterstaff or shortsword that qualifies as a Monk weapon. This still leaves you with all the ASIs from the Wizard levels to play around with but does come at the cost of losing the lvl 20 Wizard capstone ability.
Maybe add 1 level of Monk in with the Bladesinger, you get 20 AC from Unarmored Defense as opposed to the 18 from Mage Armor + DEX and you are always guaranteed a Bonus Action Unarmed Strike to use for the turns where you have nothing to do with your Bonus Action assuming you are using something like a quarterstaff or shortsword that qualifies as a Monk weapon. This still leaves you with all the ASIs from the Wizard levels to play around with but does come at the cost of losing the lvl 20 Wizard capstone ability.
We could dual wield shortswords and still be fine casting booming blade/greenflame blade if we picked up warcaster as well
I'd look at the more MAD classes. Barbarians with no weaknesses. Monks with 20 AC, ridiculous saves, and maximum featage. Paladins.
The thing with Bladesingers is that you're a full wizard and at higher levels you're going to be setting aside your sword and standing back to be a full wizard. At that point half of your stats aren't really used, so I don't think this gets as much out of max stats as others might. Your spells are just too good to ignore.
I'd look at the more MAD classes. Barbarians with no weaknesses. Monks with 20 AC, ridiculous saves, and maximum featage. Paladins.
The thing with Bladesingers is that you're a full wizard and at higher levels you're going to be setting aside your sword and standing back to be a full wizard. At that point half of your stats aren't really used, so I don't think this gets as much out of max stats as others might. Your spells are just too good to ignore.
I don't disagree with your assessment of bladesinger progression. At higher levels, spell usage will dominate your gameplay. And it should if you're optimizing.
However, I don't think that's a bad thing. Rather, let's just appreciate that it's a high level wizard at that point -- the best thing in game.
The merits of bladesinger is that it's incredibly hardy. Other straight wizards are just going to have a +5 to con checks. Bladesinger gets +10. Other wizards would have 18 AC (nothing to sneeze at), but bladesinger gets 23 while in blade song. Other wizards have rather lackluster cantrip damage (and this matters after your concentration is being used), but again, the same is not true of bladesinger.
So, the real value is that it's a wizard with a phenomenal early and mid game. That fact it's melee falls off later in is somewhat irrelevant. You still get more mileage out of a wizard with maxed out stats than you would out of a maxed out barbarian.
That said, I do want to point out that a barbarian would have 22 AC with all stats at 20, with a shield included. That's still less than a bladesinger.
As for other classes I'd consider, maybe hexblade. Since it's casting stat is already maxed out, you can play with cool martial feats. GWM+PAM+heavily armored, that's some serious fire power.
So, I would go Mark of Warding Dwarf for armor of Agathys, then I would pick Abjuration Wizard.
o At level 20 the Arcane Ward will give you a 45 hit point barrier that refills (some) each time you cast an abjuration spell.
o You get a free casting of mage armor that will give you 18 AC.
o You also get to cast armor of Agathys at whatever level you choose, and... your temp hit points don't even get touched until your Arcane Ward is down to zero. This means melee enemies keep taking full cold damage each time they hit you.
o Now you're SUPER robust despite the D6 hit dice, and with your 20 Strength and Dwarven Combat Training, you can move in and Boombing Blade (or Greenflame Blade) enemies with your war hammer, and punish them when they hit you back.
ALSO...
o Counterspell the CRAP out of other spell casters when they cast higher level spells.
Improved Abjuration
Beginning at 10th level, when you cast an abjuration spell that requires you to make an ability check as a part of casting that spell (as in counterspell and dispel magic), you add your proficiency bonus to that ability check.
The spell still gets through? Okay.
Spell Resistance
Starting at 14th level, you have advantage on saving throws against spells.
Furthermore, you have resistance against the damage of spells.
The untapped benefit of starting 20 in all stats is the ability to combine unrelated classes with multi-classing like Cleric-Wizard combos that get thrown around now and again.
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
How about a Monk of the Long Death X/Bear Totem Barbarian 3? While you rage, you are resistant to all damage but psychic, get Evasion with advantage from Danger Sense at level 10, and can’t die until you are out of Ki points once you hit level 14. In the meantime, you are hitting for martial arts die + 7 up to four times, with the potential for stunning strikes. You start at AC 20 at level 1. And everything you kill gives you at least 6 temp HP, with the temp HP scaling by level.
This build doesn’t hit as hard as a bladesinger or a GWM/PAM Barbarian, but it DOES NOT DIE. At level 14 and up, it’s possible this build could beat an army on its own with the temp HP it picks up in mob fights. Even against a dragon, its absurd DEX save plus Danger Sense means it can dodge breath weapons consistently. Monk has excellent tools against mental effects and eventually is immune to poison and gets proficiency with all saving throws.
For feats, we start with Fighting Initiate to get Unarmed Fighting style and its d8 unarmed fighting die to keep up with Tier 2 damage. Since we are going for broken, we are taking Lucky second. Then maybe Inspiring Leader to provide starting temp HP until you kill something. We will switch the fighting style to Dueling or Superior Technique once the martial arts die is a d8.
I would be inclined to choose a Lightfoot Halfling so that you can reroll 1s and make it even harder to subdue with a save or suck effect. But it would also work very well with a Hobgoblin for the extra reach and Saving Face.
I’m thinking Monk 1/Barb 3/Monk X for progression. The rage makes up for delaying extra attack and your first feat.
It'd honestly probably be even better to go Zealot for you barbarian subclass instead of Bear Totem. Yeah, you take a lot less damage, but with Zealot, you can be raisedfromthedeadfor free if you manage to die, which would be very, very difficult.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
I'd look at the more MAD classes. Barbarians with no weaknesses. Monks with 20 AC, ridiculous saves, and maximum featage. Paladins.
The thing with Bladesingers is that you're a full wizard and at higher levels you're going to be setting aside your sword and standing back to be a full wizard. At that point half of your stats aren't really used, so I don't think this gets as much out of max stats as others might. Your spells are just too good to ignore.
I don't disagree with your assessment of bladesinger progression. At higher levels, spell usage will dominate your gameplay. And it should if you're optimizing.
However, I don't think that's a bad thing. Rather, let's just appreciate that it's a high level wizard at that point -- the best thing in game.
The merits of bladesinger is that it's incredibly hardy. Other straight wizards are just going to have a +5 to con checks. Bladesinger gets +10. Other wizards would have 18 AC (nothing to sneeze at), but bladesinger gets 23 while in blade song. Other wizards have rather lackluster cantrip damage (and this matters after your concentration is being used), but again, the same is not true of bladesinger.
So, the real value is that it's a wizard with a phenomenal early and mid game. That fact it's melee falls off later in is somewhat irrelevant. You still get more mileage out of a wizard with maxed out stats than you would out of a maxed out barbarian.
That said, I do want to point out that a barbarian would have 22 AC with all stats at 20, with a shield included. That's still less than a bladesinger.
As for other classes I'd consider, maybe hexblade. Since it's casting stat is already maxed out, you can play with cool martial feats. GWM+PAM+heavily armored, that's some serious fire power.
Two GWM attacks followed by flurry of blows and stunning strike and/or hands of harm if the opponent is not immune to the poisoned condition.
This does actually work if you spend Ki for Flurry of Blows but many Monk features do not work with GWM:
’Dedicated Weapon
2nd-level monk feature You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
What I think would be fun is BloodHunter- Mutant-14, Ranger-Gloomstalker Druidic Warrior-3, Wizard Bladesinger-3. Use formula to raise int to 24 plus Tomb of Understanding to raise it to 26. For feats take warcaster and tough with one left open to tweak the PC as you wish. Background take witherbloom to get healing spells.
Blood Hunter gets +Int bonus to Str, Dex and Con saves plus other good curse stuff.
Wizard Bladesinger gets +Int bonus to AC and spell concentration saves as well as spells.
Ranger Gloom Stalker gets hunters mark and other spells, plus Wis bonus to initiative and a bonuses to 1st round of combat.
If you want more spells or the ability to cast a cantrip in place of one of your attacks go Wizard Bladesinger-6 Blood Hunter-14.
Although probably not as good over a full combat, this perfect stat combo would allow an insane first round combo - Assassin Rogue X/Gloomstalker Ranger 5. For feats, we’re taking Alert, Sharpshooter, and Piercer. Fighting Style is Archery. I’d likely start Ranger and switch at 6.
The key to this build is to always go first to take advantage of the Assassinate feature. With DEX, WIS, and Alert bonuses of +5 each to initiative (+15 total), it will be a rare combat where this build doesn’t go before everyone else. When it goes before its target, it gets three attacks at advantage, sneak attack on the first hit, an additional d8 of damage, and all hits in the first round automatically crit with surprise. And you’ll get lots of surprise with 20 DEX and invisibility in darkness.
At level 20, the first round with all hits going Sharpshooter with surprise using a nonmagical long bow and Hunter’s Mark is 10d8 + 45 + 19d6 (long bow x 3 attacks x 2 for crit + piercer crit die x 3 + d8 Gloomstalker extra damage + sharpshooter + DEX bonus + 8d6 sneak attack x 2 for crit + Hunter’s Mark x 3). If we assume 4.5 damage per d8 (it’s a little better with Piercer), we are averaging 156.5 damage in the first round with just a 1st level spell used. That’s enough to put a big sting on even the enemies you might encounter at that level.
It’s not as durable as the earlier suggestions, but it might kill a level 20 Bladesinger before their first note.
Two GWM attacks followed by flurry of blows and stunning strike and/or hands of harm if the opponent is not immune to the poisoned condition.
Unfortunately, the Watchers aura that gives you the bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus doesn't come online until Watcher 7, so you'd have to sacrifice the Way of Mercy's capstone to get it. Otherwise, good build.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Think I would start with satyr for the magic resistance. 5lv fighter taking defense fighting style and batle master. 15lv Devine soul sorcerer making sure to take quickened spell. Feats war caster, shield master, alert and luck.
You get buff spells like aid and death ward that can be cast in advance and last 8hr. Platemale, shield and defensive fighting style gives you a 21 AC that can be buffed up to 23 with shield of faith or haste and shield spell can be added as a reacton for an AC of 28. Offensively on your action you have two attacks (three whith haste spell) then you can add in battle maneuvers and action surge. Then follow it up with spells like disintegrate and prysmic ray as your bonus action using quikend spell. Remember you also have access to all the cleric healing spells and buffs like holy weapon. Luck and favored by God's (Devine soul feature) are a nice safety net when you need to save against debilitating effects like being stunned, charmed or restrained.
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Hello and welcome. Today I have a challenge for the D&D Beyond community. We are going to create the strongest build possible, however, there's a twist!
The character we are building gets to start out with an automatic 20 in all ability scores. Yes, you heard that right. 20str, 20dex, 20con, 20wis, 20int, and 20cha. From here we are free to explore our options. What would be the best way for us to terrorize the DM with the monstrosity of a creation we can brew using official D&D 5e options (excluding the ability score generation of course!).
Thank you for all the input, I'm excited to see what we can come up with!
-Tyrannosary
What level?
We'd be showing the steps of building a character from lvl 1-20 so end goal is 20 but we'd also need to determine the steps taken to get there with classes, feats, and spells (if applicable).
Full bladesinger, straight. Now their concentration is insane, their melee fantastic, and of course, you get the best spells in the game. Having 20 already means we can take fun feats like mobile, or alert to boost initiative, or double down on essentials like warcaster. Heck, even without warcaster, you have a +10 to concentration checks. At tier 1, you pretty much can't fail a save unless that damage outright kills you.
Other fun options include taking skill expert. Expertise in persuasion with 20 CHA? Now the wizard is the party face. Or athletics, be the battering ram to break down doors when you don't feel like spending a slot on knock. Or take expertise in perception so nothing escapes your notice, that'll really make the DM hate you.
Glad we think similarly. I thought a bladesinger looked pretty strong. A MAD caster that does a great job using feats. What more could you ask for!?
Maybe add 1 level of Monk in with the Bladesinger, you get 20 AC from Unarmored Defense as opposed to the 18 from Mage Armor + DEX and you are always guaranteed a Bonus Action Unarmed Strike to use for the turns where you have nothing to do with your Bonus Action assuming you are using something like a quarterstaff or shortsword that qualifies as a Monk weapon. This still leaves you with all the ASIs from the Wizard levels to play around with but does come at the cost of losing the lvl 20 Wizard capstone ability.
We could dual wield shortswords and still be fine casting booming blade/greenflame blade if we picked up warcaster as well
I'd look at the more MAD classes. Barbarians with no weaknesses. Monks with 20 AC, ridiculous saves, and maximum featage. Paladins.
The thing with Bladesingers is that you're a full wizard and at higher levels you're going to be setting aside your sword and standing back to be a full wizard. At that point half of your stats aren't really used, so I don't think this gets as much out of max stats as others might. Your spells are just too good to ignore.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I don't disagree with your assessment of bladesinger progression. At higher levels, spell usage will dominate your gameplay. And it should if you're optimizing.
However, I don't think that's a bad thing. Rather, let's just appreciate that it's a high level wizard at that point -- the best thing in game.
The merits of bladesinger is that it's incredibly hardy. Other straight wizards are just going to have a +5 to con checks. Bladesinger gets +10. Other wizards would have 18 AC (nothing to sneeze at), but bladesinger gets 23 while in blade song. Other wizards have rather lackluster cantrip damage (and this matters after your concentration is being used), but again, the same is not true of bladesinger.
So, the real value is that it's a wizard with a phenomenal early and mid game. That fact it's melee falls off later in is somewhat irrelevant. You still get more mileage out of a wizard with maxed out stats than you would out of a maxed out barbarian.
That said, I do want to point out that a barbarian would have 22 AC with all stats at 20, with a shield included. That's still less than a bladesinger.
As for other classes I'd consider, maybe hexblade. Since it's casting stat is already maxed out, you can play with cool martial feats. GWM+PAM+heavily armored, that's some serious fire power.
So, I would go Mark of Warding Dwarf for armor of Agathys, then I would pick Abjuration Wizard.
o At level 20 the Arcane Ward will give you a 45 hit point barrier that refills (some) each time you cast an abjuration spell.
o You get a free casting of mage armor that will give you 18 AC.
o You also get to cast armor of Agathys at whatever level you choose, and... your temp hit points don't even get touched until your Arcane Ward is down to zero. This means melee enemies keep taking full cold damage each time they hit you.
o Now you're SUPER robust despite the D6 hit dice, and with your 20 Strength and Dwarven Combat Training, you can move in and Boombing Blade (or Greenflame Blade) enemies with your war hammer, and punish them when they hit you back.
ALSO...
o Counterspell the CRAP out of other spell casters when they cast higher level spells.
Improved Abjuration
Beginning at 10th level, when you cast an abjuration spell that requires you to make an ability check as a part of casting that spell (as in counterspell and dispel magic), you add your proficiency bonus to that ability check.
The spell still gets through? Okay.
Spell Resistance
Starting at 14th level, you have advantage on saving throws against spells.
Furthermore, you have resistance against the damage of spells.
The untapped benefit of starting 20 in all stats is the ability to combine unrelated classes with multi-classing like Cleric-Wizard combos that get thrown around now and again.
How about a Monk of the Long Death X/Bear Totem Barbarian 3? While you rage, you are resistant to all damage but psychic, get Evasion with advantage from Danger Sense at level 10, and can’t die until you are out of Ki points once you hit level 14. In the meantime, you are hitting for martial arts die + 7 up to four times, with the potential for stunning strikes. You start at AC 20 at level 1. And everything you kill gives you at least 6 temp HP, with the temp HP scaling by level.
This build doesn’t hit as hard as a bladesinger or a GWM/PAM Barbarian, but it DOES NOT DIE. At level 14 and up, it’s possible this build could beat an army on its own with the temp HP it picks up in mob fights. Even against a dragon, its absurd DEX save plus Danger Sense means it can dodge breath weapons consistently. Monk has excellent tools against mental effects and eventually is immune to poison and gets proficiency with all saving throws.
For feats, we start with Fighting Initiate to get Unarmed Fighting style and its d8 unarmed fighting die to keep up with Tier 2 damage. Since we are going for broken, we are taking Lucky second. Then maybe Inspiring Leader to provide starting temp HP until you kill something. We will switch the fighting style to Dueling or Superior Technique once the martial arts die is a d8.
I would be inclined to choose a Lightfoot Halfling so that you can reroll 1s and make it even harder to subdue with a save or suck effect. But it would also work very well with a Hobgoblin for the extra reach and Saving Face.
I’m thinking Monk 1/Barb 3/Monk X for progression. The rage makes up for delaying extra attack and your first feat.
It'd honestly probably be even better to go Zealot for you barbarian subclass instead of Bear Totem. Yeah, you take a lot less damage, but with Zealot, you can be raised from the dead for free if you manage to die, which would be very, very difficult.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
24 due to their capstone.
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This does actually work if you spend Ki for Flurry of Blows but many Monk features do not work with GWM:
’Dedicated Weapon
2nd-level monk feature
You train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
The chosen weapon must meet these criteria:
What I think would be fun is BloodHunter- Mutant-14, Ranger-Gloomstalker Druidic Warrior-3, Wizard Bladesinger-3. Use formula to raise int to 24 plus Tomb of Understanding to raise it to 26. For feats take warcaster and tough with one left open to tweak the PC as you wish. Background take witherbloom to get healing spells.
Blood Hunter gets +Int bonus to Str, Dex and Con saves plus other good curse stuff.
Wizard Bladesinger gets +Int bonus to AC and spell concentration saves as well as spells.
Ranger Gloom Stalker gets hunters mark and other spells, plus Wis bonus to initiative and a bonuses to 1st round of combat.
If you want more spells or the ability to cast a cantrip in place of one of your attacks go Wizard Bladesinger-6 Blood Hunter-14.
Although probably not as good over a full combat, this perfect stat combo would allow an insane first round combo - Assassin Rogue X/Gloomstalker Ranger 5. For feats, we’re taking Alert, Sharpshooter, and Piercer. Fighting Style is Archery. I’d likely start Ranger and switch at 6.
The key to this build is to always go first to take advantage of the Assassinate feature. With DEX, WIS, and Alert bonuses of +5 each to initiative (+15 total), it will be a rare combat where this build doesn’t go before everyone else. When it goes before its target, it gets three attacks at advantage, sneak attack on the first hit, an additional d8 of damage, and all hits in the first round automatically crit with surprise. And you’ll get lots of surprise with 20 DEX and invisibility in darkness.
At level 20, the first round with all hits going Sharpshooter with surprise using a nonmagical long bow and Hunter’s Mark is 10d8 + 45 + 19d6 (long bow x 3 attacks x 2 for crit + piercer crit die x 3 + d8 Gloomstalker extra damage + sharpshooter + DEX bonus + 8d6 sneak attack x 2 for crit + Hunter’s Mark x 3). If we assume 4.5 damage per d8 (it’s a little better with Piercer), we are averaging 156.5 damage in the first round with just a 1st level spell used. That’s enough to put a big sting on even the enemies you might encounter at that level.
It’s not as durable as the earlier suggestions, but it might kill a level 20 Bladesinger before their first note.
Unfortunately, the Watchers aura that gives you the bonus to initiative equal to your proficiency bonus doesn't come online until Watcher 7, so you'd have to sacrifice the Way of Mercy's capstone to get it. Otherwise, good build.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Think I would start with satyr for the magic resistance. 5lv fighter taking defense fighting style and batle master. 15lv Devine soul sorcerer making sure to take quickened spell. Feats war caster, shield master, alert and luck.
You get buff spells like aid and death ward that can be cast in advance and last 8hr. Platemale, shield and defensive fighting style gives you a 21 AC that can be buffed up to 23 with shield of faith or haste and shield spell can be added as a reacton for an AC of 28. Offensively on your action you have two attacks (three whith haste spell) then you can add in battle maneuvers and action surge. Then follow it up with spells like disintegrate and prysmic ray as your bonus action using quikend spell. Remember you also have access to all the cleric healing spells and buffs like holy weapon. Luck and favored by God's (Devine soul feature) are a nice safety net when you need to save against debilitating effects like being stunned, charmed or restrained.