I am currently playing in the Curse of Strahd campaign along with 4 other players though we are often missing one or two players with only the first two (myself and the Barbarian) always being there so we average 3 to 4 players per game and have only played all of us together maybe once or twice:
Myself as the main tank/support: Custom Lineage Paladin of Vengeance 6/Hexblade 1 using sword/board
Str-based Half-Orc Barbarian of Wild Magic using two-handed weapons (will soon get GWM)
Human Rogue Swashbuckler using both a longbow and a scimitar
Gnome Battle-Smith Artificer in the backline using pistols with Sharpshooter
Warforged Mystic, Order of the Awakened (UA) who's a "caster-like" build (though Mystics don't use spells) fighting with his spell-like class abilities, definitely the squishiest of the party
LIGHT SPOILERS AHEAD pertaining to Curse of Strahd and where we are currently:
We are all level 7 and we haven't really needed healing too much until recently but we've started coming close to death a few times following an encounter with the three hags and some giant spiders on the pit stop at a certain castle on our way to pursueing the witch Baba Yega.
FYI, the adventure will continue post-CoS with a custom campaign that our DM is building, CoS is used as an introduction and the DM is planning to bring it all the way up to level 20 and maybe even beyond. I am already planning to go for Divine Soul Sorcerer next level all the way up to 5 (PoV 6/Hex 1/DS 5 - CL 12) to try and shore up our somewhat lacking support options and to tank/control/buff more effectively through twin/quicken metamagic.
I was wondering where to go from there, I considered PoV 6/Hex 1/DS 13, PoV 9/Hex 1-2/DS 9-10 and PoV 13/Hex 2/DS 5. I think the PoV 9/Hex 1-2/DS 9-10 spread is mechanically superior from the versatility it offers as well as the balanced amount of mid-level spells from both Paladin/"SorCleric" which helps with the limited amount of sorc spells known but this is my first 5E build so I'm open to comments/suggestions or even criticism if you think I'm shooting myself in the foot going Sorcerer.
I rolled the following stats: 13/14/16/11/12/17
My level 1 feat was "Celestial Constitution" which is a custom take on "Infernal Constitution" due to my character's origins, replacing resistance to cold/poison with radiant/necrotic and advantage vs poison with charmed instead, similar to the Tasha's Otherwordly Guise spell we used as inspiration with my DM.
I also placed my racial +2 in CHA and +1 CON from the feat for my current spread of: 13/14/17/11/12/19
My first ASI was placed in War Caster for casting with my hands full and for Booming Blade on the OA to make myself stickier. My second ASI which I will admittedly be getting pretty late will be Skill Expert to get my CHA up to 20 and get expertise in Athletics to help with my poor STR and will synergize well with my planned 3rd ASI which will go into Shield Master to tank/control better. My last ASI will be Resilient: Constitution to round out my CON to 18 and get that nice proficiency in Constitution even if it will be a bit later. To summarize:
Final planned stat spread will be: 13/14/18/11/12/20
Obtained ASI(s): War Caster
Planned ASI(s): Skill Expert, Shield Master, Resilient: CON
That about sums it up, in short, we're always 2 melees with 1 or 2 ranged in the back and a rogue sneak attacking left and right, a lack of any full casting class or any support outside myself and the Artificer when he's there but he's usually dealing damage with SharpShooter anyway.
Knowing all of this, am I right in going at least 5 in DS Sorcerer? If not, why not? Is PoV 9/Hex 1/DS 10 (or Hex 2/DS 9, not a huge difference mechanically and both seem perfectly viable to me with minimal difference between the two) the best build to strive for afterwards? Would you do anything differently?
Thank you in advance for your time!
Edit for additional info: So far, I usually spend the first turn buffing with Bless and then placing myself as a wall between enemies and our backline and then start attacking on turn 2 until I get a crit to smite, try and prevent anything from getting past me with OA Booming Blade outside my turn and Grappling/Knocking dangerous enemies prone so the Barbarian and Rogue can quickly get rid of them. I am pretty conservative with my spell slots because I'm always worried about running out so I never use Divine Smite unless I crit unless I know with certainty that we'll have time to rest after the present encounter.
For Warlock spells known, I picked Shield and Armor of Agathys though I haven't used the latter yet, feels underwhelming with a 1st level slot and I save those precious few 2nd level slots I have for now, I figure it'll get better use later.
For Paladin spells I usually always have Detect Magic, Cure Wounds, Bless, Protection from Evil/Good, Thunderous Smite and Lesser Restoration prepared so far and frequently switch my last available spell between Warding Bond, Prayer of Healing, Find Steed, Wrathful Smite and Compelled Duel depending on what is going on or what I expect to come up.
Once I go Sorc, planning on grabbing Bless as the Divine Magic option since its always good to have and I can drop it off the Paladin prepared spells. For my 6 spells known by DS 5, I was planning to get Absorb Elements for obvious reasons, Healing Word, Haste (until I get it for free from PoV 9 later on and can switch it out), Spirit Guardians, Counterspell (being the only one in our party that can actually get it) and Dispel Magic.
I don't know if I can truly say whether taking levels in DS is really worthwhile for you, but I don't think it's a good idea. You'll be weak in the role you're aiming for, all the way to the end.
Just an FYI, you cannot make opportunity attacks with Booming Blade. Warcaster requires the spell to target the enemy creature, and Booming Blade targets Self.
Ummm, sorry to contradict you but Booming Blade does still work with War Caster because you are not the target but the point of origin, the target remains the monster as per sage advice from Jeremy Crawford even post Tasha's...
Any way, that does not really answer my question or tell me why I should not do it. Can you elaborate on why you think it would make me weaker in the specific goal of tanking/support for the rest of the party?
I think you have really thought out a good support/tank concept. The one thing you may not be realizing is being a jack of all trades is being a master of none. I understand you want to cover all the bases due to unreliable party composition. The problem? MC and cross purpose characters work better in a full, mostly role specific group that needs a slight bit of flexibility. They are generally way weaker(sub optimal) in a small group.
That's just my take, your idea may work splendidly. I guess I just can't see why staying Paladin wouldn't check all the necessary support/tank options on it's own.
Ummm, sorry to contradict you but Booming Blade does still work with War Caster because you are not the target but the point of origin, the target remains the monster as per sage advice from Jeremy Crawford even post Tasha's...
Any way, that does not really answer my question or tell me why I should not do it. Can you elaborate on why you think it would make me weaker in the specific goal of tanking/support for the rest of the party?
Thanks for the link, that's good to know the intent behind BB and WC.
I would say not to take the levels in DS because it makes you continually less efficient at tanks (lower hit points every level), you forgo other tanking class abilities, and in return you get some low and mid-level spells. Forget about a build at level 20: most campaigns don't get that far, and even if they do you'll spent 19/20 of your adventuring career at lower levels. So let's say level 14, you're: PoV 9, Hex 1, DS 4. What are those levels in DS really giving you? Your spells won't be worth casting in combat very often as you already have paladin spells to cast, and you'll be far more efficient using spell slots to smite.
Switching to caster levels isn't effective as your top spells are always going to be way behind the curve compared to a pure caster. A level 14 cleric is casting heal and mass cure wounds. A level 14 wizard is casting teleport. You'll make yourself weaker in combat in exchange for some not terribly awesome spells.
I see what you are both getting at. Thanks for the feedback! In this case, what would you do differently and why? The only other sensible route I had was Paladin 18/Hex 2 for the 30' auras though they get them very late.
However, I could be wrong but it doesn't feel like there is very much that will help in my tanking role in Paladin post level 6 outside of some spell progression and hit die. Granted, going Sorcerer makes me play catch-up on 3rd/4th/5th level spells vs if I went as a pure Paladin. The 7th level Vengeance ability is meh, Aura of Courage is meh, improved divine smite is good, cleansing touch is unecessary, soul of vengeance only affects the target of the vow so its also pretty meh except in boss fights. The only worthwhile ability is the 18th level aura extension but it is too little and too late. 10' is good enough with decent positioning.
I dabbled in a Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 build but the limited amount of spells known from the sorcerer class in general and being limited to 2nd level spells to prepare for Paladin spells gave me trouble selecting a decent spell list and involved sacrificing too many options (Blinding Smite, Protection from Energy, Crusader's Mantle) for little gain (Heal, Regenerate, Resurrection are the only spells I would select as 6th/7th level spells and they don't feel particularly helpful). Most of the support spells I was going for are 3rd level and under and can be upcast. The main draw then is more spell slots to support and smite with as well as metamagic for more efficient use of said spell slots. This is why I felt Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 10 felt like the best balance. In terms of progression, I was thinking of going something like Pal 6/Hex 1 -> DS 1-5 -> Pal 7-9 -> DS 6-10
The Sorcerer part of the build was not planned out at first, the original idea was simply to be the tank with some light healing through lay on hands and basic cure spells but I thought we would have a full caster in the party which we ended up not getting so we have no counterspell, only one source of dispel magic and I feel like the paladin spell slots are too few to properly support with not to mention the always crucial action economy. I was imagining a Pal 13/Hex 7 or Pal 15/Hex 5 at first but I did not properly look through the Warlock spell list at the beginning and as I started planning ahead at level 3-4, it did not have many supportive options and I quickly realized it wouldn't play out as I wanted. Paladin/Hexblade is probably more suited in an offensive role through smites which is not what I was trying to do.
If it isn't already obvious from my spell selection, I'm not trying to be a blaster or "caster" in the traditional sense at all, most of the spells I pick are party-support in nature (healing/buffing/control), help me take hits better (shield/absorb elements) or will let me be a threat if ignored through dangerous but passive lasting damage such as Spirit Guardians. My fellow party members like my buffs too much already and they're practically demanding I bless them as soon as the fight starts. I have a feeling it'll be worse once I pick up haste and other staples.
Knowing all this and after playing several sessions and getting a feel for 5E, I wanted to optimize my action economy in two ways:
Shield Master will let me control/support better through bonus action shoves to try and knock enemies prone but still attack on that same turn. This is especially important when I botch a roll as not doing anything relevant in a turn at all, hurts, especially when we're a party of 3. The shield bonus to dex saves that target only me and the "lesser evasion" part of the ability is just gravy on top.
The main goal of going Sorcerer was to take advantage of Metamagic (twinned/quicken) by letting me buff more party members or doing the buffing more efficiently and then start actually contributing right away.
Divine Soul was to get access to the cleric spell list which has most of the support spells I am after. There's not actually very many spells that a level 17 Paladin can get that a level 9 Divine Soul or Cleric can't. The main ones I could find are Find Greater Steed and Staggering Smite for 4th level and Banishing Smite, Circle of Power and Destructive Wave for 5th level. Those are all good spells and all but in exchange, I get:
A few good cantrips such as Blade Ward, Guidance, Mind Sliver and Word of Radiance.
A large selection of very good unique spells from 1st to 5th level that I couldn't get from Paladin otherwise such as Absorb Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Healing Word, Enlarge/Reduce (advantage on those shoves!), Blur, Invisibility and Greater Invis, Mirror Image, Spider Climb, Warding Wind, Counterspell (!!!), Dispel Magic, Life Transference, Spirit Guardians (!!!), Freedom of Movement, Fire Shield, Sickening Radiance, Stoneskin, Hallow, Mass Cure Wounds, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Dawn, Geas, Greater Restoration and probably more!
Quicken/Twin metamagic!
Sorcery Points + Font of Magic to use for either more metamagic or more slots to cast or smite with.
Sorry for that wall of text with all my explanations as I try to convey my train of thought here! :) I still have time to change my mind and NOT go sorcerer but trying to use the experience on these boards to see why all this would not be a good idea, what would be a better idea and why.
TL;DR: So, am I approaching this the wrong way? I fail to see the advantage of pursuing more levels of Paladin past level 9 in a tanking/support role outside of hit die and quicker progression for ASIs and spells vs Sorcerer levels which do eventually catch up anyway. Is that really all there is to it?
Paladin does have some strong support spells that aren't on the cleric list, such as Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Find Greater Steed, and Circle of Power. In terms of class features, there are a lot of high tier monsters with very high DC Frightful Presence, so Aura of Courage is invaluable, and it's hard to complain about +1d8 damage per attack with Improved Divine Smite.
I see what you are both getting at. Thanks for the feedback! In this case, what would you do differently and why? The only other sensible route I had was Paladin 18/Hex 2 for the 30' auras though they get them very late.
I'll reiterate: forget about what you'd be at level 20. You spend 19/20 of your adventuring life below level 20, and most campaigns end long before that. It's a bit like building your career choices around what you'll do aged 95.
A few good cantrips such as Blade Ward, Guidance, Mind Sliver and Word of Radiance.
A large selection of very good unique spells from 1st to 5th level that I couldn't get from Paladin otherwise such as Absorb Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Healing Word, Enlarge/Reduce (advantage on those shoves!), Blur, Invisibility and Greater Invis, Mirror Image, Spider Climb, Warding Wind, Counterspell (!!!), Dispel Magic, Life Transference, Spirit Guardians (!!!), Freedom of Movement, Fire Shield, Sickening Radiance, Stoneskin, Hallow, Mass Cure Wounds, Animate Objects, Bigby's Hand, Dawn, Geas, Greater Restoration and probably more!
Quicken/Twin metamagic!
Sorcery Points + Font of Magic to use for either more metamagic or more slots to cast or smite with.
Blade Ward is not something you'll want to cast often, as you forgo attacking or doing anything else. I took it at level 3 as an Eldritch Knight and never found one useful time to cast it.
You can get lots of spells by going into DS, but you won't have sufficient spell slots to use them terribly effectively. If your goal is to gain access to cleric spells, go into Cleric: War Domain or something of that nature. It will be more effective for the same role. If you want the wizard spell slots, Eldritch Knight will grant you access to Absorb Elements, Blur, Mirror Image, Warding Wind, Counterspell, Dispel Magic and other spells from the wizard spell list. But do note that you're effectively just describing what a Divine Soul sorcerer has access to as though it's super powerful, while it's going to just be a down-levelled sorcerer casting lower levelled spells than you'd normally have without multiclassing.
I think that if you want to multiclass into DS, do so! It's your character and your fun. I don't think it's a particularly effective build for a tank (the lower hit dice makes you worse at tanking all round), but honestly that doesn't matter so much. But don't look at your character from the perspective of "in 8 levels time, I'll get..." because you don't know that you'll get there. For the first 4 levels of DS at least, you're going to be outright weaker than if you just continued taking paladin levels. That's ok: nobody has to maximise their character.
@Pantagruel666: Hah, I thought Aura of Life/Purity were both on the cleric spell list due to the online source I was using (but won't disclose for "reasons") but looking into my dndbeyond sources and the physical books, I see that you are right. Thanks for this!
Going back to the drawing board and taking a look at all this and my planned progression, I figured out that:
Going Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5, I would delay 3rd level spells by 2 levels (CL 12 vs 10)
Then going Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 7 due to really wanting those 3rd level pally spells (and that ASI) would delay 4th level spells by 3 levels (CL 17 vs 14)
Finally catching up to Paladin's 5th level spells one level late (CL 19 vs 18)
It would have probably been easier to start off as a sorc and then multi-class into Paladin (ditching Hexblade completely) but no point complaining about that now.
Even if I decided to bite the bullet and not grab 3rd level paladin spells and instead going for a Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 build:
I would delay 3rd level spells by 2 levels anyway (CL 12 vs 10) since it would be the same as the 1st progression up to here (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5)
I would catch up to 4th level spells 2 levels later though at CL 14 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 7 = Pal 13/Hex 1)
Though, I would get 5th level spells 2 levels earlier at CL 16 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 9 vs Pal 17/Hex 1)
The main problem here is that 3rd level spells are where its at!
Crusader's Mantle
Aura of Vitality
Blinding Smite
Dispel Magic (granted, I could still get this but that's -1 to sorc spells known)
Revivify
Remove Curse
Magic Circle
Elemental Weapon
Free Haste from the Oath (again, I would still get it but that's another -1 to a now very limited sorc spells known list)
Free Protection from Energy from the Oath
Realizing all this now makes me wonder how Sorcadins are even a thing? In a standard "start at level 1" type of campaign, can they only work with a minimal amount of paladin levels (2?) in an offensive smiting build? Outside of that, I now feel as though they're only viable when you already start at a very high level (15+). Am I wrong in thinking that?
In any case, I already informed my DM I'd at least wait until level 10 (Pal 9/Hex 1) before committing to anything but I may just go Paladin all the way up to 20 (Pal 19/Hex 1) if we ever get there.
@Sanvael: Yes, I realize this now after researching a little (read: a lot) more and going through this thread a couple of times in the last few days. It really feels like a Sorcadin can only be properly played if you already start at a high level or as an offensive smiting machine with at most 2 levels of Paladin, definitely not what I am going for.
I figured Blade Ward could be useful with Quicken but thanks for relaying your personal experience. The way I was envisioning the character (some sort of divine spell sword), I should have just went for a pure Cleric straight up but too late for that now! I tried to find a way to multiclass into Cleric but its just not viable with my low Wisdom (12).
In the end, my current goal will be Pal 9/Hex 1 and will probably end up aiming for Pal 19/Hex 1 for those sweet 30' auras and an extra ASI I could grab Inspiring Leader with for free temp HP for the whole party.
Scoradin is a very powerful build overall at high enough levels.
Getting Shield, Absorb Elements, and Counterspell are some of the best defensive options you can get in 5e.
The one reason I like the idea of going Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 is that you will be a beast defensively with high AC (super high with Shield spell), high saves, good magic defense (counterspell), good AoE defense (Absorb Elements), and a metric ton of slots to smite with.
You can covert points back to slots to smite more. You can use CD to recover low level slots for shield/absorb elements.
You can get great spells like Spirit Guardian (which you can upcast to do some serious damage) all while still smiting more and more. Quicken Booming Blade after you attack for more smites.
@OptimusGrimus: I know! That's the whole reason I was looking at it. Mechanically, it makes perfect sense. But again, it won't actually come online until very late. I feel like I would be doing the character (and by extension, the party) dis-service by stalling Paladin progression completely to go into DS now and not gain back anything useful (outside Favored by the Gods and Absorb Elements) until 5-7 levels later around CL 12-14 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5-7). Before then, I'd just be a weaker paladin with basic spells. FYI, I already grabbed Shield (and Armor of Agathys) from Hexblade so that wouldn't change anything and I can (sort of) replace Spirit Guardians with Spirit Shroud. Its not AS good and less range but its still decent enough.
Having more slots is always a good thing and that's why I was going for Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 9 to begin with but its progression is even worse then Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 which is not great either. I admit that Font of Magic and Metamagic are going to be the two things I will miss the most from foregoing Sorcerer altogether though. :(
@OptimusGrimus: I know! That's the whole reason I was looking at it. Mechanically, it makes perfect sense. But again, it won't actually come online until very late. I feel like I would be doing the character (and by extension, the party) dis-service by stalling Paladin progression completely to go into DS now and not gain back anything useful (outside Favored by the Gods and Absorb Elements) until 5-7 levels later around CL 12-14 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5-7). Before then, I'd just be a weaker paladin with basic spells. FYI, I already grabbed Shield (and Armor of Agathys) from Hexblade so that wouldn't change anything and I can (sort of) replace Spirit Guardians with Spirit Shroud. Its not AS good and less range but its still decent enough.
Having more slots is always a good thing and that's why I was going for Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 9 to begin with but its progression is even worse then Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 which is not great either. I admit that Font of Magic and Metamagic are going to be the two things I will miss the most from foregoing Sorcerer altogether though. :(
Getting to Counterspell and being able to quicken an attack (Booming Blade) is a good low level baseline that would absolutely be worth it IMO but to each their own.
He did say hes going to progress to lvl 20 though?
I like the multiclass idea. You will be sitting a couple levels however waiting to get to 3rd sorc for quicken. then basically starting to go quicken bless and then smack smack. So something to keep in mind, which especially is rough when not everyone shows up regularly (makes optimizing the spells and team combos harder). The skill expert and shield master feats I would possibly not take imo. I say that due to you are not str based (using your cha for your dmg with hexlock after all) so using it to even round out a score is....well it isnt a bad call I think maybe there is other options though. Sentinel to stop enemies is great and lets you boomin blade thanks to your warcaster feat and doing this if they even goto smack your barb is awesome (if yall do flanking then crit fish ahoy!)
He did say hes going to progress to lvl 20 though?
I like the multiclass idea. You will be sitting a couple levels however waiting to get to 3rd sorc for quicken. then basically starting to go quicken bless and then smack smack. So something to keep in mind, which especially is rough when not everyone shows up regularly (makes optimizing the spells and team combos harder). The skill expert and shield master feats I would possibly not take imo. I say that due to you are not str based (using your cha for your dmg with hexlock after all) so using it to even round out a score is....well it isnt a bad call I think maybe there is other options though. Sentinel to stop enemies is great and lets you boomin blade thanks to your warcaster feat and doing this if they even goto smack your barb is awesome (if yall do flanking then crit fish ahoy!)
Yeah to me Quicken, the cantrips, absorb elements, and some first level spells, sorcerer subclass benefits are worth the dip for 2 levels.
He did say hes going to progress to lvl 20 though?
I like the multiclass idea. You will be sitting a couple levels however waiting to get to 3rd sorc for quicken. then basically starting to go quicken bless and then smack smack. So something to keep in mind, which especially is rough when not everyone shows up regularly (makes optimizing the spells and team combos harder). The skill expert and shield master feats I would possibly not take imo. I say that due to you are not str based (using your cha for your dmg with hexlock after all) so using it to even round out a score is....well it isnt a bad call I think maybe there is other options though. Sentinel to stop enemies is great and lets you boomin blade thanks to your warcaster feat and doing this if they even goto smack your barb is awesome (if yall do flanking then crit fish ahoy!)
Yeah to me Quicken, the cantrips, absorb elements, and some first level spells, sorcerer subclass benefits are worth the dip for 2 levels.
agreed, although I think its 3rd for the meta magics yes? Also the auras (vitality/life/ purity)are on the clerics list post tasha's btw, which would count for the DS
He did say hes going to progress to lvl 20 though?
I like the multiclass idea. You will be sitting a couple levels however waiting to get to 3rd sorc for quicken. then basically starting to go quicken bless and then smack smack. So something to keep in mind, which especially is rough when not everyone shows up regularly (makes optimizing the spells and team combos harder). The skill expert and shield master feats I would possibly not take imo. I say that due to you are not str based (using your cha for your dmg with hexlock after all) so using it to even round out a score is....well it isnt a bad call I think maybe there is other options though. Sentinel to stop enemies is great and lets you boomin blade thanks to your warcaster feat and doing this if they even goto smack your barb is awesome (if yall do flanking then crit fish ahoy!)
Yeah to me Quicken, the cantrips, absorb elements, and some first level spells, sorcerer subclass benefits are worth the dip for 2 levels.
agreed, although I think its 3rd for the meta magics yes? Also the auras (vitality/life/ purity)are on the clerics list post tasha's btw, which would count for the DS
You are correct...you get SP at 2nd level but metamagic is 3rd so I misspoke!
@Optimus&RoyalRodney: Thanks for both your inputs! Thanks for the info on those Auras, I had to dig to find it and I wondered why my other source had them but it's because they're hidden under the cleric class's optional class features. Not sure if that counts for a Divine Soul but I guess that's up to DM fiat.
In any case, can't do much with a max cap of 3 SP. I can quicken one spell then I need to convert a spell slot to SP to use it again. I'd need to make it to level 5 at the very least for it to be worth anything. Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 is possibly viable but I would be in for the long run and I'd probably only be DS 2 or 3 at most just around the ending of the current adventure (Curse of Strahd) and I'm not sure I want to be at my "weakest" going in to fight Strahd, giving up on an ASI and access to any 3rd level spells on the way which will probably be very important. After Curse of Strahd though, we're going to be joining a custom campaign my DM is planning which ties into this one and he hinted that it may be possible to either reroll an existing character or make up a new one so its still good information and I may still revisit the concept later on in this game or another one.
As for Sentinel, I considered it at first but War Caster with Booming Blade is basically just as good at making me sticky as long as I position myself right. However, I could always grab Sentinel on top of it to punish whoever attacks somebody else but so far, I'm usually the one targetted due to good positioning or it'd make no difference whether I have it or not due to range. Either way, I would only have space for it if I went something like Pal 19/Hex 1 and I still feel like that free 25 temp HP every short or long rest x 6 characters is probably better for the party then me having Sentinel.
Skill Expert is really just to max my CHA to 20 but also because there aren't really any other good CHA half-feats that would fit and also because it gives me expertise in Athletics which will definitely help in my shoving attempts but also to pick up another useful skill prof. I ended up grabbing the Haunted One background because it fit perfectly with the backstory moreso then due to any mechanical advantages so I have prof in Arcana, Athletics, Investigation and Persuasion. Perception, Insight or Intimidation could all help out here. Mostly leaning towards Intimidation due to it being a CHA skill and Perception/Insight being covered by others in the party.
I also feel like Shield Master is a natural fit for the character, it provides a constant option for my bonus action, bumps up the character's "lacking" dex saves a bit as well as giving him a pseudo evasion on these. I also really liked the image of blocking a dragon's breath attack using my shield haha. As for the lacking strength, again, expertise will help a bit but we also have an artificer in the party who will be able to grant me gauntlets of ogre power to get my STR up to 19 and I may well find my own pair or a belt of giant strength by then as well if I'm lucky. If that happens though, it renders my hexblade level a bit useless haha but it will have been useful in getting there!
The same thing that applies to Skill Expert also applies to Res:CON, its not that I need it, its that there isn't really any other CON half feats that would benefit the character and there is no such thing as a too high constitution save bonus for maintaining concentration. With or without advantage.
@Optimus&RoyalRodney: Thanks for both your inputs! Thanks for the info on those Auras, I had to dig to find it and I wondered why my other source had them but it's because they're hidden under the cleric class's optional class features. Not sure if that counts for a Divine Soul but I guess that's up to DM fiat.
In any case, can't do much with a max cap of 3 SP. I can quicken one spell then I need to convert a spell slot to SP to use it again. I'd need to make it to level 5 at the very least for it to be worth anything. Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 is possibly viable but I would be in for the long run and I'd probably only be DS 2 or 3 at most just around the ending of the current adventure (Curse of Strahd) and I'm not sure I want to be at my "weakest" going in to fight Strahd, giving up on an ASI and access to any 3rd level spells on the way which will probably be very important. After Curse of Strahd though, we're going to be joining a custom campaign my DM is planning which ties into this one and he hinted that it may be possible to either reroll an existing character or make up a new one so its still good information and I may still revisit the concept later on in this game or another one.
As for Sentinel, I considered it at first but War Caster with Booming Blade is basically just as good at making me sticky as long as I position myself right. However, I could always grab Sentinel on top of it to punish whoever attacks somebody else but so far, I'm usually the one targetted due to good positioning or it'd make no difference whether I have it or not due to range. Either way, I would only have space for it if I went something like Pal 19/Hex 1 and I still feel like that free 25 temp HP every short or long rest x 6 characters is probably better for the party then me having Sentinel.
Skill Expert is really just to max my CHA to 20 but also because there aren't really any other good CHA half-feats that would fit and also because it gives me expertise in Athletics which will definitely help in my shoving attempts but also to pick up another useful skill prof. I ended up grabbing the Haunted One background because it fit perfectly with the backstory moreso then due to any mechanical advantages so I have prof in Arcana, Athletics, Investigation and Persuasion. Perception, Insight or Intimidation could all help out here. Mostly leaning towards Intimidation due to it being a CHA skill and Perception/Insight being covered by others in the party.
I also feel like Shield Master is a natural fit for the character, it provides a constant option for my bonus action, bumps up the character's "lacking" dex saves a bit as well as giving him a pseudo evasion on these. I also really liked the image of blocking a dragon's breath attack using my shield haha. As for the lacking strength, again, expertise will help a bit but we also have an artificer in the party who will be able to grant me gauntlets of ogre power to get my STR up to 19 and I may well find my own pair or a belt of giant strength by then as well if I'm lucky. If that happens though, it renders my hexblade level a bit useless haha but it will have been useful in getting there!
The same thing that applies to Skill Expert also applies to Res:CON, its not that I need it, its that there isn't really any other CON half feats that would benefit the character and there is no such thing as a too high constitution save bonus for maintaining concentration. With or without advantage.
Hey all fair points, as long as you have your team show up then you got a fantastic plan. That artificer gifting those will be fantastic! also if sticking on that skill expert not only can you nab athletics skill prof BUT in that same choice you can choose athletics to gain expertise in it. So you can gain that big boost asap no fiat needed. The res con is 100% a go to no qualms on it at all. I like ds even at 3 personally if the party is lacking so you can quicken that bless and add your cha mod (the reason jumping to hex1) and that d4 to all saves. There is one other feat to look at (may also fit well thematically) is abberant dragonmark. With it you could grab one more sorc cantrip and absorb elements (or something else that fits but ymmv). You learn the spells thus allowing you to cast them once free (the other effect is a may effect) and then use slots to cast others. Just a couple other options to consider. My group is actually close to finishing up Strahd ourselves. I pumped up us all and the encounters and prob ending the campaign with us all sitting between lvl 17-20, and super saiyan Strahd is going SSG Strahd. I'm genuinely wondering if him or Grazz't is more powerful with the boosts XD.
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Hello!
I am currently playing in the Curse of Strahd campaign along with 4 other players though we are often missing one or two players with only the first two (myself and the Barbarian) always being there so we average 3 to 4 players per game and have only played all of us together maybe once or twice:
LIGHT SPOILERS AHEAD pertaining to Curse of Strahd and where we are currently:
We are all level 7 and we haven't really needed healing too much until recently but we've started coming close to death a few times following an encounter with the three hags and some giant spiders on the pit stop at a certain castle on our way to pursueing the witch Baba Yega.
FYI, the adventure will continue post-CoS with a custom campaign that our DM is building, CoS is used as an introduction and the DM is planning to bring it all the way up to level 20 and maybe even beyond. I am already planning to go for Divine Soul Sorcerer next level all the way up to 5 (PoV 6/Hex 1/DS 5 - CL 12) to try and shore up our somewhat lacking support options and to tank/control/buff more effectively through twin/quicken metamagic.
I was wondering where to go from there, I considered PoV 6/Hex 1/DS 13, PoV 9/Hex 1-2/DS 9-10 and PoV 13/Hex 2/DS 5. I think the PoV 9/Hex 1-2/DS 9-10 spread is mechanically superior from the versatility it offers as well as the balanced amount of mid-level spells from both Paladin/"SorCleric" which helps with the limited amount of sorc spells known but this is my first 5E build so I'm open to comments/suggestions or even criticism if you think I'm shooting myself in the foot going Sorcerer.
I rolled the following stats: 13/14/16/11/12/17
My level 1 feat was "Celestial Constitution" which is a custom take on "Infernal Constitution" due to my character's origins, replacing resistance to cold/poison with radiant/necrotic and advantage vs poison with charmed instead, similar to the Tasha's Otherwordly Guise spell we used as inspiration with my DM.
I also placed my racial +2 in CHA and +1 CON from the feat for my current spread of: 13/14/17/11/12/19
My first ASI was placed in War Caster for casting with my hands full and for Booming Blade on the OA to make myself stickier. My second ASI which I will admittedly be getting pretty late will be Skill Expert to get my CHA up to 20 and get expertise in Athletics to help with my poor STR and will synergize well with my planned 3rd ASI which will go into Shield Master to tank/control better. My last ASI will be Resilient: Constitution to round out my CON to 18 and get that nice proficiency in Constitution even if it will be a bit later. To summarize:
That about sums it up, in short, we're always 2 melees with 1 or 2 ranged in the back and a rogue sneak attacking left and right, a lack of any full casting class or any support outside myself and the Artificer when he's there but he's usually dealing damage with SharpShooter anyway.
Knowing all of this, am I right in going at least 5 in DS Sorcerer? If not, why not? Is PoV 9/Hex 1/DS 10 (or Hex 2/DS 9, not a huge difference mechanically and both seem perfectly viable to me with minimal difference between the two) the best build to strive for afterwards? Would you do anything differently?
Thank you in advance for your time!
Edit for additional info: So far, I usually spend the first turn buffing with Bless and then placing myself as a wall between enemies and our backline and then start attacking on turn 2 until I get a crit to smite, try and prevent anything from getting past me with OA Booming Blade outside my turn and Grappling/Knocking dangerous enemies prone so the Barbarian and Rogue can quickly get rid of them. I am pretty conservative with my spell slots because I'm always worried about running out so I never use Divine Smite unless I crit unless I know with certainty that we'll have time to rest after the present encounter.
For Warlock spells known, I picked Shield and Armor of Agathys though I haven't used the latter yet, feels underwhelming with a 1st level slot and I save those precious few 2nd level slots I have for now, I figure it'll get better use later.
For Paladin spells I usually always have Detect Magic, Cure Wounds, Bless, Protection from Evil/Good, Thunderous Smite and Lesser Restoration prepared so far and frequently switch my last available spell between Warding Bond, Prayer of Healing, Find Steed, Wrathful Smite and Compelled Duel depending on what is going on or what I expect to come up.
Once I go Sorc, planning on grabbing Bless as the Divine Magic option since its always good to have and I can drop it off the Paladin prepared spells. For my 6 spells known by DS 5, I was planning to get Absorb Elements for obvious reasons, Healing Word, Haste (until I get it for free from PoV 9 later on and can switch it out), Spirit Guardians, Counterspell (being the only one in our party that can actually get it) and Dispel Magic.
Here's a link to my current character sheet: https://ddb.ac/characters/47013531/eQRR0B
Here's a link to my current goal of PoV 6/Hex 1/DS 5 (with some magic items I'm hoping to find filled in :)): https://ddb.ac/characters/47457434/JjVupD
I don't know if I can truly say whether taking levels in DS is really worthwhile for you, but I don't think it's a good idea. You'll be weak in the role you're aiming for, all the way to the end.
Just an FYI, you cannot make opportunity attacks with Booming Blade. Warcaster requires the spell to target the enemy creature, and Booming Blade targets Self.
Ummm, sorry to contradict you but Booming Blade does still work with War Caster because you are not the target but the point of origin, the target remains the monster as per sage advice from Jeremy Crawford even post Tasha's...
Ref: https://www.sageadvice.eu/the-booming-blade-spell-continues-to-work-with-the-war-caster-feat/
Any way, that does not really answer my question or tell me why I should not do it. Can you elaborate on why you think it would make me weaker in the specific goal of tanking/support for the rest of the party?
I think you have really thought out a good support/tank concept. The one thing you may not be realizing is being a jack of all trades is being a master of none. I understand you want to cover all the bases due to unreliable party composition. The problem? MC and cross purpose characters work better in a full, mostly role specific group that needs a slight bit of flexibility. They are generally way weaker(sub optimal) in a small group.
That's just my take, your idea may work splendidly. I guess I just can't see why staying Paladin wouldn't check all the necessary support/tank options on it's own.
Thanks for the link, that's good to know the intent behind BB and WC.
I would say not to take the levels in DS because it makes you continually less efficient at tanks (lower hit points every level), you forgo other tanking class abilities, and in return you get some low and mid-level spells. Forget about a build at level 20: most campaigns don't get that far, and even if they do you'll spent 19/20 of your adventuring career at lower levels. So let's say level 14, you're: PoV 9, Hex 1, DS 4. What are those levels in DS really giving you? Your spells won't be worth casting in combat very often as you already have paladin spells to cast, and you'll be far more efficient using spell slots to smite.
Switching to caster levels isn't effective as your top spells are always going to be way behind the curve compared to a pure caster. A level 14 cleric is casting heal and mass cure wounds. A level 14 wizard is casting teleport. You'll make yourself weaker in combat in exchange for some not terribly awesome spells.
I see what you are both getting at. Thanks for the feedback! In this case, what would you do differently and why? The only other sensible route I had was Paladin 18/Hex 2 for the 30' auras though they get them very late.
However, I could be wrong but it doesn't feel like there is very much that will help in my tanking role in Paladin post level 6 outside of some spell progression and hit die. Granted, going Sorcerer makes me play catch-up on 3rd/4th/5th level spells vs if I went as a pure Paladin. The 7th level Vengeance ability is meh, Aura of Courage is meh, improved divine smite is good, cleansing touch is unecessary, soul of vengeance only affects the target of the vow so its also pretty meh except in boss fights. The only worthwhile ability is the 18th level aura extension but it is too little and too late. 10' is good enough with decent positioning.
I dabbled in a Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 build but the limited amount of spells known from the sorcerer class in general and being limited to 2nd level spells to prepare for Paladin spells gave me trouble selecting a decent spell list and involved sacrificing too many options (Blinding Smite, Protection from Energy, Crusader's Mantle) for little gain (Heal, Regenerate, Resurrection are the only spells I would select as 6th/7th level spells and they don't feel particularly helpful). Most of the support spells I was going for are 3rd level and under and can be upcast. The main draw then is more spell slots to support and smite with as well as metamagic for more efficient use of said spell slots. This is why I felt Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 10 felt like the best balance. In terms of progression, I was thinking of going something like Pal 6/Hex 1 -> DS 1-5 -> Pal 7-9 -> DS 6-10
The Sorcerer part of the build was not planned out at first, the original idea was simply to be the tank with some light healing through lay on hands and basic cure spells but I thought we would have a full caster in the party which we ended up not getting so we have no counterspell, only one source of dispel magic and I feel like the paladin spell slots are too few to properly support with not to mention the always crucial action economy. I was imagining a Pal 13/Hex 7 or Pal 15/Hex 5 at first but I did not properly look through the Warlock spell list at the beginning and as I started planning ahead at level 3-4, it did not have many supportive options and I quickly realized it wouldn't play out as I wanted. Paladin/Hexblade is probably more suited in an offensive role through smites which is not what I was trying to do.
If it isn't already obvious from my spell selection, I'm not trying to be a blaster or "caster" in the traditional sense at all, most of the spells I pick are party-support in nature (healing/buffing/control), help me take hits better (shield/absorb elements) or will let me be a threat if ignored through dangerous but passive lasting damage such as Spirit Guardians. My fellow party members like my buffs too much already and they're practically demanding I bless them as soon as the fight starts. I have a feeling it'll be worse once I pick up haste and other staples.
Knowing all this and after playing several sessions and getting a feel for 5E, I wanted to optimize my action economy in two ways:
Divine Soul was to get access to the cleric spell list which has most of the support spells I am after. There's not actually very many spells that a level 17 Paladin can get that a level 9 Divine Soul or Cleric can't. The main ones I could find are Find Greater Steed and Staggering Smite for 4th level and Banishing Smite, Circle of Power and Destructive Wave for 5th level. Those are all good spells and all but in exchange, I get:
Sorry for that wall of text with all my explanations as I try to convey my train of thought here! :)
I still have time to change my mind and NOT go sorcerer but trying to use the experience on these boards to see why all this would not be a good idea, what would be a better idea and why.
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TL;DR: So, am I approaching this the wrong way? I fail to see the advantage of pursuing more levels of Paladin past level 9 in a tanking/support role outside of hit die and quicker progression for ASIs and spells vs Sorcerer levels which do eventually catch up anyway. Is that really all there is to it?
Paladin does have some strong support spells that aren't on the cleric list, such as Aura of Life, Aura of Purity, Find Greater Steed, and Circle of Power. In terms of class features, there are a lot of high tier monsters with very high DC Frightful Presence, so Aura of Courage is invaluable, and it's hard to complain about +1d8 damage per attack with Improved Divine Smite.
I'll reiterate: forget about what you'd be at level 20. You spend 19/20 of your adventuring life below level 20, and most campaigns end long before that. It's a bit like building your career choices around what you'll do aged 95.
Blade Ward is not something you'll want to cast often, as you forgo attacking or doing anything else. I took it at level 3 as an Eldritch Knight and never found one useful time to cast it.
You can get lots of spells by going into DS, but you won't have sufficient spell slots to use them terribly effectively. If your goal is to gain access to cleric spells, go into Cleric: War Domain or something of that nature. It will be more effective for the same role. If you want the wizard spell slots, Eldritch Knight will grant you access to Absorb Elements, Blur, Mirror Image, Warding Wind, Counterspell, Dispel Magic and other spells from the wizard spell list. But do note that you're effectively just describing what a Divine Soul sorcerer has access to as though it's super powerful, while it's going to just be a down-levelled sorcerer casting lower levelled spells than you'd normally have without multiclassing.
I think that if you want to multiclass into DS, do so! It's your character and your fun. I don't think it's a particularly effective build for a tank (the lower hit dice makes you worse at tanking all round), but honestly that doesn't matter so much. But don't look at your character from the perspective of "in 8 levels time, I'll get..." because you don't know that you'll get there. For the first 4 levels of DS at least, you're going to be outright weaker than if you just continued taking paladin levels. That's ok: nobody has to maximise their character.
@Pantagruel666: Hah, I thought Aura of Life/Purity were both on the cleric spell list due to the online source I was using (but won't disclose for "reasons") but looking into my dndbeyond sources and the physical books, I see that you are right. Thanks for this!
Going back to the drawing board and taking a look at all this and my planned progression, I figured out that:
It would have probably been easier to start off as a sorc and then multi-class into Paladin (ditching Hexblade completely) but no point complaining about that now.
Even if I decided to bite the bullet and not grab 3rd level paladin spells and instead going for a Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 build:
The main problem here is that 3rd level spells are where its at!
Realizing all this now makes me wonder how Sorcadins are even a thing? In a standard "start at level 1" type of campaign, can they only work with a minimal amount of paladin levels (2?) in an offensive smiting build? Outside of that, I now feel as though they're only viable when you already start at a very high level (15+). Am I wrong in thinking that?
In any case, I already informed my DM I'd at least wait until level 10 (Pal 9/Hex 1) before committing to anything but I may just go Paladin all the way up to 20 (Pal 19/Hex 1) if we ever get there.
Thanks for all your input!
@Sanvael: Yes, I realize this now after researching a little (read: a lot) more and going through this thread a couple of times in the last few days. It really feels like a Sorcadin can only be properly played if you already start at a high level or as an offensive smiting machine with at most 2 levels of Paladin, definitely not what I am going for.
I figured Blade Ward could be useful with Quicken but thanks for relaying your personal experience. The way I was envisioning the character (some sort of divine spell sword), I should have just went for a pure Cleric straight up but too late for that now! I tried to find a way to multiclass into Cleric but its just not viable with my low Wisdom (12).
In the end, my current goal will be Pal 9/Hex 1 and will probably end up aiming for Pal 19/Hex 1 for those sweet 30' auras and an extra ASI I could grab Inspiring Leader with for free temp HP for the whole party.
Thanks again for your input! :)
Scoradin is a very powerful build overall at high enough levels.
Getting Shield, Absorb Elements, and Counterspell are some of the best defensive options you can get in 5e.
The one reason I like the idea of going Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 is that you will be a beast defensively with high AC (super high with Shield spell), high saves, good magic defense (counterspell), good AoE defense (Absorb Elements), and a metric ton of slots to smite with.
You can covert points back to slots to smite more. You can use CD to recover low level slots for shield/absorb elements.
You can get great spells like Spirit Guardian (which you can upcast to do some serious damage) all while still smiting more and more. Quicken Booming Blade after you attack for more smites.
@OptimusGrimus: I know! That's the whole reason I was looking at it. Mechanically, it makes perfect sense. But again, it won't actually come online until very late. I feel like I would be doing the character (and by extension, the party) dis-service by stalling Paladin progression completely to go into DS now and not gain back anything useful (outside Favored by the Gods and Absorb Elements) until 5-7 levels later around CL 12-14 (Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 5-7). Before then, I'd just be a weaker paladin with basic spells. FYI, I already grabbed Shield (and Armor of Agathys) from Hexblade so that wouldn't change anything and I can (sort of) replace Spirit Guardians with Spirit Shroud. Its not AS good and less range but its still decent enough.
Having more slots is always a good thing and that's why I was going for Pal 9/Hex 1/DS 9 to begin with but its progression is even worse then Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 which is not great either. I admit that Font of Magic and Metamagic are going to be the two things I will miss the most from foregoing Sorcerer altogether though. :(
Getting to Counterspell and being able to quicken an attack (Booming Blade) is a good low level baseline that would absolutely be worth it IMO but to each their own.
Do what brings you joy!
He did say hes going to progress to lvl 20 though?
I like the multiclass idea. You will be sitting a couple levels however waiting to get to 3rd sorc for quicken. then basically starting to go quicken bless and then smack smack. So something to keep in mind, which especially is rough when not everyone shows up regularly (makes optimizing the spells and team combos harder). The skill expert and shield master feats I would possibly not take imo. I say that due to you are not str based (using your cha for your dmg with hexlock after all) so using it to even round out a score is....well it isnt a bad call I think maybe there is other options though. Sentinel to stop enemies is great and lets you boomin blade thanks to your warcaster feat and doing this if they even goto smack your barb is awesome (if yall do flanking then crit fish ahoy!)
Yeah to me Quicken, the cantrips, absorb elements, and some first level spells, sorcerer subclass benefits are worth the dip for 2 levels.
agreed, although I think its 3rd for the meta magics yes? Also the auras (vitality/life/ purity)are on the clerics list post tasha's btw, which would count for the DS
You are correct...you get SP at 2nd level but metamagic is 3rd so I misspoke!
@Optimus&RoyalRodney: Thanks for both your inputs! Thanks for the info on those Auras, I had to dig to find it and I wondered why my other source had them but it's because they're hidden under the cleric class's optional class features. Not sure if that counts for a Divine Soul but I guess that's up to DM fiat.
In any case, can't do much with a max cap of 3 SP. I can quicken one spell then I need to convert a spell slot to SP to use it again. I'd need to make it to level 5 at the very least for it to be worth anything. Pal 6/Hex 1/DS 13 is possibly viable but I would be in for the long run and I'd probably only be DS 2 or 3 at most just around the ending of the current adventure (Curse of Strahd) and I'm not sure I want to be at my "weakest" going in to fight Strahd, giving up on an ASI and access to any 3rd level spells on the way which will probably be very important. After Curse of Strahd though, we're going to be joining a custom campaign my DM is planning which ties into this one and he hinted that it may be possible to either reroll an existing character or make up a new one so its still good information and I may still revisit the concept later on in this game or another one.
As for Sentinel, I considered it at first but War Caster with Booming Blade is basically just as good at making me sticky as long as I position myself right. However, I could always grab Sentinel on top of it to punish whoever attacks somebody else but so far, I'm usually the one targetted due to good positioning or it'd make no difference whether I have it or not due to range. Either way, I would only have space for it if I went something like Pal 19/Hex 1 and I still feel like that free 25 temp HP every short or long rest x 6 characters is probably better for the party then me having Sentinel.
Skill Expert is really just to max my CHA to 20 but also because there aren't really any other good CHA half-feats that would fit and also because it gives me expertise in Athletics which will definitely help in my shoving attempts but also to pick up another useful skill prof. I ended up grabbing the Haunted One background because it fit perfectly with the backstory moreso then due to any mechanical advantages so I have prof in Arcana, Athletics, Investigation and Persuasion. Perception, Insight or Intimidation could all help out here. Mostly leaning towards Intimidation due to it being a CHA skill and Perception/Insight being covered by others in the party.
I also feel like Shield Master is a natural fit for the character, it provides a constant option for my bonus action, bumps up the character's "lacking" dex saves a bit as well as giving him a pseudo evasion on these. I also really liked the image of blocking a dragon's breath attack using my shield haha. As for the lacking strength, again, expertise will help a bit but we also have an artificer in the party who will be able to grant me gauntlets of ogre power to get my STR up to 19 and I may well find my own pair or a belt of giant strength by then as well if I'm lucky. If that happens though, it renders my hexblade level a bit useless haha but it will have been useful in getting there!
The same thing that applies to Skill Expert also applies to Res:CON, its not that I need it, its that there isn't really any other CON half feats that would benefit the character and there is no such thing as a too high constitution save bonus for maintaining concentration. With or without advantage.
Hey all fair points, as long as you have your team show up then you got a fantastic plan. That artificer gifting those will be fantastic! also if sticking on that skill expert not only can you nab athletics skill prof BUT in that same choice you can choose athletics to gain expertise in it. So you can gain that big boost asap no fiat needed. The res con is 100% a go to no qualms on it at all. I like ds even at 3 personally if the party is lacking so you can quicken that bless and add your cha mod (the reason jumping to hex1) and that d4 to all saves. There is one other feat to look at (may also fit well thematically) is abberant dragonmark. With it you could grab one more sorc cantrip and absorb elements (or something else that fits but ymmv). You learn the spells thus allowing you to cast them once free (the other effect is a may effect) and then use slots to cast others. Just a couple other options to consider. My group is actually close to finishing up Strahd ourselves. I pumped up us all and the encounters and prob ending the campaign with us all sitting between lvl 17-20, and super saiyan Strahd is going SSG Strahd. I'm genuinely wondering if him or Grazz't is more powerful with the boosts XD.