Hello all, I want to talk about a rework spell comming on 2024 player's handbook, that I think is going to be problematic in the future on tables:
It has too much damage potential for Valor Bards (level 10), Bladesingers and Moondruids with 2 (or more attacks per turn). Because the upcast is waaay to high with 2d8 for each spell slot level above level 4.
And can get even more crazy if you grab a level of Warlock (Eldritch Blast) or Fighter (Nick Mastery) or both, for more attacks on turn.
But just for sake of Simplicity lets compare straight level 12 Battlemaster Fighter (Using 1 Manouvers/Round) vs level 12 Character Valor Bard 11/Fighter 1 to grab Nick Mastery and Two Weapon Fighting Style.
Both using: 1) 20 Dexterity (so +5 on Damage, and same hit chance); 1) 1d6 Weapon on Main Hand + Scimitar (Nick) on Secondary Hand; 2) Two Weapons Fighting Style; 4) Dual Wilder Feat and spending Bonus action each turn in order to make extra attack.
Fighter Level 12:
1st Attack [with Manouver damage] 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+1d10+5 = Average 14 DPR: 9.55
2nd Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+5 = Average 8.5 DPR: 5,7
3rd Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+5 = Average 8.5 DPR: 5,7
4th Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+5 = Average 8.5 DPR: 5,7
5th Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6 = Average 3.5 DPR: 2,45
FIGHTER TOTAL DPR: 29.10
Bard 11/Fighter 1:
Concentrating on 6th Level Spell Conjure Minor Elementals (+6d8/Attack)
1st Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+6d8+5 = Average 35.5 DPR: 24.6
2nd Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+6d8+5 = Average 35.5 DPR: 24.6
3rd Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+6d8+5 = Average 35.5 DPR: 24.6
4th Attack 60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit Damage 1d6+6d8 = Average 30.5 DPR: 21.35
FIGHTER TOTAL DPR: 95.15
29.10 vs 95.15 is a MASSIVE difference, even if you consider that the Fighter could potently do more damage using let's say the Charger Feat or Spending more Manouvers or Action Surge. it still has a loooong way to get near the Bard damage.
My Suggestion and what I will use on my game as a Houserule for Conjure Minor Elementals: The upcast just add an extra 1d8 instead of 2d8. That way, on the same scenario the Bard would be doing a still amazing 69.95 DPR on level 11 upcasting this spell to level 6. Still amazing damage, but it require concentration, 10 minutes duration and an action to set up so it has drawbacks.
Also, another argument I have against the power level of this spell is compare it toSpirit Shroud. Which is a solid spell already.
100% is based on math and I did not have the time to test yet, so i may be wrong on this one.
What are you guys thoughts on this Spell: It is fine or it need to be toned down?
I think you are right that the spell is over-tuned especially when combined with multi-hitting spells.
But thankfully I think your maths is over-selling this a little… as you have acknowledged the first turn the Bard will have to do absolutely nothing, whilst concentrating on a spell and putting a huge target on their back.
Also if we assume combat will last four turns…
Champion Fighter 11 Barbarian 1
Feats: Tough (Background), Dual Wielder (lv4), ASI for 20str (lv6) and Fighting Initiate: Two Weapon Fighting (lv8)
Fighting Styles: Duelling, Thrown Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Fighting
This combo lets you throw 1x Light Hammer and 4x Handaxe a turn (after first turn for rage +2 damage bonus) with all but the last bonus action gaining +11 damage on a hit (that one wouldn’t have ability mod, so just +6)
We’ll be using 1x Light Hammer to get the Nick mastery and the rest Handaxes to get the Vex Mastery (which with Heroic Inspiration each turn means that even if we use an opportunity attack with the last Vex from the turn before… we can still have advantage on all attacks)
With a +9 to hit against 18ac (60%)… but bearing in mind advantage this is actually (84%) and we crits on 19s and 20s (19% chance to crit)
So over four turns… the Bard still comes ahead (285 damage), but bear in mind that the Bard is within 15ft of the enemy and never losing concentration.
Total damage over three turns: 209.325
If the combat lasted three turns, the Bard does 190.3 so the Fighter wins out, and the only expense they have expended is their Action Surge which comes back on a Short Rest.
Yeah it is bit ovesold I agree with you, but that does not make the spell on a good place in therms of balance the way a look. My think is even if it is an action the 10 minutes make it easy to cast before Combat MOST of the times.
Also thanks for joining the discussion! And your math looks solid.
And as you said, on multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray this spell is even crazier.
And as you said, on multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray this spell is even crazier.
Yeah, this is where the combo does become dangerous, a fifth level Scorching Ray would give six attacks I believe. You can get crazy high white room numbers this way… BUT it is blowing through resources which might be needed for more control heavy spells.
Yeah the spell combo is a bit of a problem, especially at casual tables… but I don’t think it’s game breaking
Btw I sorted my maths out on my first post, it was better than I thought
And as you said, on multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray this spell is even crazier.
Yeah the spell combo is a bit of a problem, especially at casual tables… but I don’t think it’s game breaking
I think that the base level spell is totally fine. The first upcast is still alright; my main problem is when you start upcasting using level 6+ spell slot.
I will probably still homebrew in my games the upcast as extra 1d8 instead of 2d8.
Yikes I just thought of a bigger problem build, I think I’ll post a full breakdown in the Fighter forum:
Bugbear (Surprise Attack: +2d6 per hit against a creature who hasn’t gone yet)
Origin Feat: Alert (Ruined Background)
Champion Fighter X | Ranger 1
17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha
Fighter Feats: (Lv1) Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting, (Lv4) Dual Wielder (for just in case you don’t need to move the Hunter’s Mark), (lv6) ASI: 20 Strength, (lv7) Fighting Style: Duelling and (lv8) Fighting Initiate: Two-Weapon Fighting
With a +9 to hit against 18ac (60%)… but bearing in mind advantage this is actually (84%) and we crits on 19s and 20s (19% chance to crit)
Thrown weapons still have the problem that you only get one attack with each physical weapon, so you need to be carrying around an absurd number of weapons and you get very little benefit from magic weapons. So it's super weak at level 20 when you expect to have magical weapons.
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
thats up to the DM to decide, i for one read it that it appeals also to the attacks of a scorching ray, and even if not, you will still have the problem of valor Bard & Bladesinger with 1 lvl dip of Warlock and weapon Mastery twf with nick weapon = 3 attacks ( attack, extra attack, nick attack ) if you take the dual wielder feat you get another attack as a bonus action as a valor bard or bladesinger you can replace one of your attacks with a cantrip ( eldritch blast ) now we are at 7 attacks
now we get max lvl ( w/o Sorcerer for scorching ray ) 17 valor bard / 2 ftr / 1 warlock which gives us action surge or 7 attacks + 6 attacks ( action surge ) = 13 attacks, take that with a 9th lvl cme each hitting for 1d6 + 12d8 + 5 ( dex mod ) with 60% hit chance ( ignoring crits ) 63 ( avg dmg ) x 0.6 = 32 / hit x 13 = 416 +/- a couple for eldritch blast
you could also add in a 5th lvl bestow curse ( no conc needed +1d8 ) and all of that is w/o magic items ....
that spell is so broken not even the change of +1d8 / spell lvl will fix it, the only way to fix it would be +1d8 / 2 spell lvls just like spirit shroud .....
Eldritch blast wouldn’t proc conjure minor elementals damage. Scorching ray wouldn’t proc conjure minor elementals damage. The wording is there. Even if it weren’t, both instances require spacing inside of 15 feet but outside of 5 feet so as to not have disadvantage. The set up is a pretty unique swathe of circumstances that should be rewarded by large damage numbers.
it takes two full turns to come online. It’s concentration based. In many situations that same valour bard is getting more damage out of a fireball from magical secrets than it is a conjure minor elementals. You guys need to breathe, it’s not a problem.
every once in a while your player will complete the set up, do a huge chunk of damage and feel great, that’s a good thing. More often than not, concentration, counter spell, spacing, low hp mobs or villains intelligent enough to leave a combat before dying will prevent the issue.
Action surge doesn’t double magic: “You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magicaction.”
and
Nick doesn’t double: “When you make the extra attack of the Lightproperty, you can make it as part of the Attackaction instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.”
I’m starting to worry you lot aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at?
Thrown weapons still have the problem that you only get one attack with each physical weapon, so you need to be carrying around an absurd number of weapons and you get very little benefit from magic weapons. So it's super weak at level 20 when you expect to have magical weapons.
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
Alright now I’m excited. I come here for the legaleaze baby. That whether is in acknowledgment of the structure of the action, but if you follow that “Attack” definition we see the same glossary heading outlining an attack as a strike with a weapon or unarmed strike. The text you’re quoting again uses that “attack roll” distinction. I would argue that this “making an attack” structure text is more about the order of operations than the definition of what an Attack is. That definition is elsewhere.
I think you’ve got reasonable doubt from that block of text, but overall following the definitions more strongly supports what I’m arguing. As with all things it is gonna come down to DM discretion, and WOTC has never released anything that wasn’t a little nebulous. If our goal as a DM is to help balance CME, I have gotta say, it specifically uses “attack” where other spells use “attack roll” and that attack definition would suggest that its martial attacks only.
when you’re interpreting texts that self contradict you have to decide as a community which information supersedes what, and I wanna vote for definitions superseding texts that reference those definitions to outline operations.
End of the day, man it’s good to be back getting semantic in the threads about a game I love, gang.
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
Alright now I’m excited. I come here for the legaleaze baby. That whether is in acknowledgment of the structure of the action, but if you follow that “Attack” definition we see the same glossary heading outlining an attack as a strike with a weapon or unarmed strike. The text you’re quoting again uses that “attack roll” distinction. I would argue that this “making an attack” structure text is more about the order of operations than the definition of what an Attack is. That definition is elsewhere.
I think you’ve got reasonable doubt from that block of text, but overall following the definitions more strongly supports what I’m arguing. As with all things it is gonna come down to DM discretion, and WOTC has never released anything that wasn’t a little nebulous. If our goal as a DM is to help balance CME, I have gotta say, it specifically uses “attack” where other spells use “attack roll” and that attack definition would suggest that its martial attacks only.
End of the day, man it’s good to be back getting semantic in the threads about a game I love, gang.
It's talking about attacks. Making an attack includes spell attacks. It's written right there. I'm quoting a text that talks about what it is to "make an attack"; which is what CME says. You are quoting texts that describe what the Attack action is, an Attack roll, and a Spell attack. If we want to know what an "attack" is, then we look for the definition of "attack". You go the glossary, it tells you page 25, you go to page 25, it says that attacking with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell is an attack.
It comes down to DM discretion in the sense that, if they follow the PHB, they'll rule that a spell attack is an attack. If they rule like you say then they're houseruling. I don't know what's so complicated. Read the text that I quoted again. It's very specifically describing what making an attack means, and it includes spells. What's so complicated about that?
Balancing has nothing to do with this. Not allowing spell attacks to work with CME for balance purposes is fine, but it's houseruling.
Actually, using your own quote:
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
It says that an attack roll represents making an attack with a weapon, Unarmed Strike, or a spell. So, if you make an attack roll it means that you made an attack, which is what procs CME. How is this even remotely difficult to understand?
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
Alright now I’m excited. I come here for the legaleaze baby. That whether is in acknowledgment of the structure of the action, but if you follow that “Attack” definition we see the same glossary heading outlining an attack as a strike with a weapon or unarmed strike. The text you’re quoting again uses that “attack roll” distinction. I would argue that this “making an attack” structure text is more about the order of operations than the definition of what an Attack is. That definition is elsewhere.
I think you’ve got reasonable doubt from that block of text, but overall following the definitions more strongly supports what I’m arguing. As with all things it is gonna come down to DM discretion, and WOTC has never released anything that wasn’t a little nebulous. If our goal as a DM is to help balance CME, I have gotta say, it specifically uses “attack” where other spells use “attack roll” and that attack definition would suggest that its martial attacks only.
End of the day, man it’s good to be back getting semantic in the threads about a game I love, gang.
It's talking about attacks. Making an attack includes spell attacks. It's written right there. I'm quoting a text that talks about what it is to "make an attack"; which is what CME says. You are quoting texts that describe what the Attack action is, an Attack roll, and a Spell attack. If we want to know what an "attack" is, then we look for the definition of "attack". You go the glossary, it tells you page 25, you go to page 25, it says that attacking with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell is an attack.
It comes down to DM discretion in the sense that, if they follow the PHB, they'll rule that a spell attack is an attack. If they rule like you say then they're houseruling. I don't know what's so complicated. Read the text that I quoted again. It's very specifically describing what making an attack means, and it includes spells. What's so complicated about that?
Balancing has nothing to do with this. Not allowing spell attacks to work with CME for balance purposes is fine, but it's houseruling.
Actually, using your own quote:
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
It says that an attack roll represents making an attack with a weapon, Unarmed Strike, or a spell. So, if you make an attack roll it means that you made an attack, which is what procs CME. How is this even remotely difficult to understand?
thats an attack roll, not an attack, separately defined.
it talks “about” attacks, it does not define them. They have a definition for that. It talks about the order of operations for making an attack, and acknowledges that it is the same order that is used for spell attack rolls. Which are separately defined.
you’re cherry picking a piece of text that isn’t intended to define anything, but speaks purely to how to order various actions. If you want to find what is classified as an “Attack” vs an “Attack Roll” they have definitions for those both. Using the verbiage they have defined, that appears in both forms in different spells, CME procs off of “Attacks” not “Spell Attack Rolls.” You’re ignoring definitions expressly written into this book to be used with the orders and interactions throughout in order to reverse engineer a separate definition for what an attack is from a block of text not intended to define anything.
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
Alright now I’m excited. I come here for the legaleaze baby. That whether is in acknowledgment of the structure of the action, but if you follow that “Attack” definition we see the same glossary heading outlining an attack as a strike with a weapon or unarmed strike. The text you’re quoting again uses that “attack roll” distinction. I would argue that this “making an attack” structure text is more about the order of operations than the definition of what an Attack is. That definition is elsewhere.
I think you’ve got reasonable doubt from that block of text, but overall following the definitions more strongly supports what I’m arguing. As with all things it is gonna come down to DM discretion, and WOTC has never released anything that wasn’t a little nebulous. If our goal as a DM is to help balance CME, I have gotta say, it specifically uses “attack” where other spells use “attack roll” and that attack definition would suggest that its martial attacks only.
End of the day, man it’s good to be back getting semantic in the threads about a game I love, gang.
It's talking about attacks. Making an attack includes spell attacks. It's written right there. I'm quoting a text that talks about what it is to "make an attack"; which is what CME says. You are quoting texts that describe what the Attack action is, an Attack roll, and a Spell attack. If we want to know what an "attack" is, then we look for the definition of "attack". You go the glossary, it tells you page 25, you go to page 25, it says that attacking with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell is an attack.
It comes down to DM discretion in the sense that, if they follow the PHB, they'll rule that a spell attack is an attack. If they rule like you say then they're houseruling. I don't know what's so complicated. Read the text that I quoted again. It's very specifically describing what making an attack means, and it includes spells. What's so complicated about that?
Balancing has nothing to do with this. Not allowing spell attacks to work with CME for balance purposes is fine, but it's houseruling.
Actually, using your own quote:
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
It says that an attack roll represents making an attack with a weapon, Unarmed Strike, or a spell. So, if you make an attack roll it means that you made an attack, which is what procs CME. How is this even remotely difficult to understand?
thats an attack roll, not an attack, separately defined.
it talks “about” attacks, it does not define them. They have a definition for that. It talks about the order of operations for making an attack, and acknowledges that it is the same order that is used for spell attack rolls. Which are separately defined.
you’re cherry picking a piece of text that isn’t intended to define anything, but speaks purely to how to order various actions. If you want to find what is classified as an “Attack” vs an “Attack Roll” they have definitions for those both. Using the verbiage they have defined, that appears in both forms in different spells, CME procs off of “Attacks” not “Spell Attack Rolls.” You’re ignoring definitions expressly written into this book to be used with the orders and interactions throughout in order to reverse engineer a separate definition for what an attack is from a block of text not intended to define anything.
It's very simple. You say I'm cherry picking a piece of text that isn't intended to define anything? Fine, let's go to the one that does. We're trying to define what procs CME. The spell description of CME says "any attack you make". Great, now we need to define what it means to "make an attack". Well, the most obvious section is the one titled "Making an Attack". That section very explicitly included spell attacks.
You, on the other side, are quoting the Attack action section, which is completely irrelevant. You're also quoting the section Attack roll, also irrelevant. The description of CME never mentions the Attack action nor Attack rolls. It only mentions Making an Attack, so that's the term you should be looking at. And that description includes spell attacks, it's clear as day.
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
Alright now I’m excited. I come here for the legaleaze baby. That whether is in acknowledgment of the structure of the action, but if you follow that “Attack” definition we see the same glossary heading outlining an attack as a strike with a weapon or unarmed strike. The text you’re quoting again uses that “attack roll” distinction. I would argue that this “making an attack” structure text is more about the order of operations than the definition of what an Attack is. That definition is elsewhere.
I think you’ve got reasonable doubt from that block of text, but overall following the definitions more strongly supports what I’m arguing. As with all things it is gonna come down to DM discretion, and WOTC has never released anything that wasn’t a little nebulous. If our goal as a DM is to help balance CME, I have gotta say, it specifically uses “attack” where other spells use “attack roll” and that attack definition would suggest that its martial attacks only.
End of the day, man it’s good to be back getting semantic in the threads about a game I love, gang.
It's talking about attacks. Making an attack includes spell attacks. It's written right there. I'm quoting a text that talks about what it is to "make an attack"; which is what CME says. You are quoting texts that describe what the Attack action is, an Attack roll, and a Spell attack. If we want to know what an "attack" is, then we look for the definition of "attack". You go the glossary, it tells you page 25, you go to page 25, it says that attacking with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell is an attack.
It comes down to DM discretion in the sense that, if they follow the PHB, they'll rule that a spell attack is an attack. If they rule like you say then they're houseruling. I don't know what's so complicated. Read the text that I quoted again. It's very specifically describing what making an attack means, and it includes spells. What's so complicated about that?
Balancing has nothing to do with this. Not allowing spell attacks to work with CME for balance purposes is fine, but it's houseruling.
Actually, using your own quote:
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
It says that an attack roll represents making an attack with a weapon, Unarmed Strike, or a spell. So, if you make an attack roll it means that you made an attack, which is what procs CME. How is this even remotely difficult to understand?
thats an attack roll, not an attack, separately defined.
it talks “about” attacks, it does not define them. They have a definition for that. It talks about the order of operations for making an attack, and acknowledges that it is the same order that is used for spell attack rolls. Which are separately defined.
you’re cherry picking a piece of text that isn’t intended to define anything, but speaks purely to how to order various actions. If you want to find what is classified as an “Attack” vs an “Attack Roll” they have definitions for those both. Using the verbiage they have defined, that appears in both forms in different spells, CME procs off of “Attacks” not “Spell Attack Rolls.” You’re ignoring definitions expressly written into this book to be used with the orders and interactions throughout in order to reverse engineer a separate definition for what an attack is from a block of text not intended to define anything.
It's very simple. You say I'm cherry picking a piece of text that isn't intended to define anything? Fine, let's go to the one that does. We're trying to define what procs CME. The spell description of CME says "any attack you make". Great, now we need to define what it means to "make an attack". Well, the most obvious section is the one titled "Making an Attack". That section very explicitly included spell attacks.
You, on the other side, are quoting the Attack action section, which is completely irrelevant. You're also quoting the section Attack roll, also irrelevant. The description of CME never mentions the Attack action nor Attack rolls. It only mentions Making an Attack, so that's the term you should be looking at. And that description includes spell attacks, it's clear as day.
We need a jury of impartial cleric mains here.
You are relying heavily on page 25 and let’s have a look.
MakinganAttack
When you take the Attack action, you make an attack.Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make anattack . Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make anattack roll as part of a spell, anattack has the following structure:
“When you take the attack action you make an attack” Taking the attack action is making an attack.
“Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make anattack.” You may make an attack using your bonus action or reaction in some cases.
“Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make anattack roll as part of a spell, anattack has the following structure.” Or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure.
This does not define what an attack is, it outlines a structure for making an attack, one that is also used for spell attack rolls. It does however reaffirm that taking the attack action IS making an attack. When discussing spells however it again refers to the Spell Attack Roll, before returning the the intended structure or making an attack, it does not anywhere say “when you make a spell attack roll you make an attack” as we see with the attack action above in the same text.
What on earth is going on in this thread? Why are you pedantically arguing about obvious well established things? If you make any kind of attack roll that thing that triggered it was an attack. The only place there is any possible ambiguity is Grappling because Grappling is now part of the unarmed strike rules but does not involve an attack roll. But even there I think it's pretty clear it is not considered "an attack" since there is no attack roll involved.
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Hello all, I want to talk about a rework spell comming on 2024 player's handbook, that I think is going to be problematic in the future on tables:
It has too much damage potential for Valor Bards (level 10), Bladesingers and Moondruids with 2 (or more attacks per turn). Because the upcast is waaay to high with 2d8 for each spell slot level above level 4.
And can get even more crazy if you grab a level of Warlock (Eldritch Blast) or Fighter (Nick Mastery) or both, for more attacks on turn.
But just for sake of Simplicity lets compare straight level 12 Battlemaster Fighter (Using 1 Manouvers/Round) vs level 12 Character Valor Bard 11/Fighter 1 to grab Nick Mastery and Two Weapon Fighting Style.
Both using:
1) 20 Dexterity (so +5 on Damage, and same hit chance);
1) 1d6 Weapon on Main Hand + Scimitar (Nick) on Secondary Hand;
2) Two Weapons Fighting Style;
4) Dual Wilder Feat and spending Bonus action each turn in order to make extra attack.
Fighter Level 12:
1st Attack [with Manouver damage]
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+1d10+5 = Average 14
DPR: 9.55
2nd Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+5 = Average 8.5
DPR: 5,7
3rd Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+5 = Average 8.5
DPR: 5,7
4th Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+5 = Average 8.5
DPR: 5,7
5th Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6 = Average 3.5
DPR: 2,45
FIGHTER TOTAL DPR: 29.10
Bard 11/Fighter 1:
Concentrating on 6th Level Spell Conjure Minor Elementals (+6d8/Attack)
1st Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+6d8+5 = Average 35.5
DPR: 24.6
2nd Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+6d8+5 = Average 35.5
DPR: 24.6
3rd Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+6d8+5 = Average 35.5
DPR: 24.6
4th Attack
60% Chance Hit 30% Miss 5% Crit
Damage 1d6+6d8 = Average 30.5
DPR: 21.35
FIGHTER TOTAL DPR: 95.15
29.10 vs 95.15 is a MASSIVE difference, even if you consider that the Fighter could potently do more damage using let's say the Charger Feat or Spending more Manouvers or Action Surge. it still has a loooong way to get near the Bard damage.
My Suggestion and what I will use on my game as a Houserule for Conjure Minor Elementals: The upcast just add an extra 1d8 instead of 2d8. That way, on the same scenario the Bard would be doing a still amazing 69.95 DPR on level 11 upcasting this spell to level 6. Still amazing damage, but it require concentration, 10 minutes duration and an action to set up so it has drawbacks.
Also, another argument I have against the power level of this spell is compare it to Spirit Shroud. Which is a solid spell already.
100% is based on math and I did not have the time to test yet, so i may be wrong on this one.
What are you guys thoughts on this Spell: It is fine or it need to be toned down?
I think you are right that the spell is over-tuned especially when combined with multi-hitting spells.
But thankfully I think your maths is over-selling this a little… as you have acknowledged the first turn the Bard will have to do absolutely nothing, whilst concentrating on a spell and putting a huge target on their back.
Also if we assume combat will last four turns…
Champion Fighter 11 Barbarian 1
Feats: Tough (Background), Dual Wielder (lv4), ASI for 20str (lv6) and Fighting Initiate: Two Weapon Fighting (lv8)
Fighting Styles: Duelling, Thrown Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Fighting
This combo lets you throw 1x Light Hammer and 4x Handaxe a turn (after first turn for rage +2 damage bonus) with all but the last bonus action gaining +11 damage on a hit (that one wouldn’t have ability mod, so just +6)
We’ll be using 1x Light Hammer to get the Nick mastery and the rest Handaxes to get the Vex Mastery (which with Heroic Inspiration each turn means that even if we use an opportunity attack with the last Vex from the turn before… we can still have advantage on all attacks)
With a +9 to hit against 18ac (60%)… but bearing in mind advantage this is actually (84%) and we crits on 19s and 20s (19% chance to crit)
1st Turn: 50.6825
1x Light Hammer: ((1d4+11)x0.84)+(2.5x0.19)=11.815
3x Handaxe: 3(((1d6+11)x0.84)+(3.5x0.19))=38.8675
2nd Turn (Action Surge): 98.755
1x Light Hammer: ((1d4+11)x0.84)+(2.5x0.19)=11.815
6x Handaxe: 6(((1d6+11)x0.84)+(3.5x0.19))=77.735
1x Handaxe: (Bonus Action, no ability mod):
((1d6+6)x0.84)+(3.5x0.19)=9.205
3rd and 4th Turn: 59.8875 each
1x Light Hammer: ((1d4+11)x0.84)+(2.5x0.19)=11.815
3x Handaxe: 3(((1d6+11)x0.84)+(3.5x0.19))=38.8675
1x Handaxe: (Bonus Action, no ability mod):
((1d6+6)x0.84)+(3.5x0.19)=9.205
Total damage over four turns: 269.2125
So over four turns… the Bard still comes ahead (285 damage), but bear in mind that the Bard is within 15ft of the enemy and never losing concentration.
Total damage over three turns: 209.325
If the combat lasted three turns, the Bard does 190.3 so the Fighter wins out, and the only expense they have expended is their Action Surge which comes back on a Short Rest.
Yeah it is bit ovesold I agree with you, but that does not make the spell on a good place in therms of balance the way a look. My think is even if it is an action the 10 minutes make it easy to cast before Combat MOST of the times.
Also thanks for joining the discussion! And your math looks solid.
And as you said, on multi-hit spells like Scorching Ray this spell is even crazier.
Yeah, this is where the combo does become dangerous, a fifth level Scorching Ray would give six attacks I believe. You can get crazy high white room numbers this way… BUT it is blowing through resources which might be needed for more control heavy spells.
Yeah the spell combo is a bit of a problem, especially at casual tables… but I don’t think it’s game breaking
Btw I sorted my maths out on my first post, it was better than I thought
I think that the base level spell is totally fine. The first upcast is still alright; my main problem is when you start upcasting using level 6+ spell slot.
I will probably still homebrew in my games the upcast as extra 1d8 instead of 2d8.
Yikes I just thought of a bigger problem build, I think I’ll post a full breakdown in the Fighter forum:
Bugbear (Surprise Attack: +2d6 per hit against a creature who hasn’t gone yet)
Origin Feat: Alert (Ruined Background)
Champion Fighter X | Ranger 1
17 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 13 Wis, 8 Cha
Fighter Feats: (Lv1) Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting, (Lv4) Dual Wielder (for just in case you don’t need to move the Hunter’s Mark), (lv6) ASI: 20 Strength, (lv7) Fighting Style: Duelling and (lv8) Fighting Initiate: Two-Weapon Fighting
With a +9 to hit against 18ac (60%)… but bearing in mind advantage this is actually (84%) and we crits on 19s and 20s (19% chance to crit)
1st Turn: 152.83
Bonus Action: Hunter’s Mark
Action: 6x Handaxe (Action Surge): 6((((4d6=14)+9)x0.84)+((4d6=14) x0.19))=131.88
Action (Nick): 1x Light Hammer: (((1d4+3d6=13)+9)x0.84)+((1d4+3d6=13) x0.19)=20.95
Each subsequent turn: 58.05 (68.62 if Hunter’s Mark doesn’t need to move)
Bonus Action: Moving Hunter’s Mark
Action: 3x Handaxe: 3((((2d6=7)+9)x0.84)+((2d6=7)x0.19))=44.31
Action (Nick): 1x Light Hammer: (((1d4+1d6=6)+9)x0.84)+((1d4+1d6=6) x0.19)=13.74
or:
Fey Touched +1 Int (Hunter’s Mark)
2 level dip Artificer (x1st level SS)
Returning Weapon (+1 weapon, Handaxe)
Could go for a third level and grab Battlesmith to instead max out Intellegence, if that way inclined
Thrown weapons still have the problem that you only get one attack with each physical weapon, so you need to be carrying around an absurd number of weapons and you get very little benefit from magic weapons. So it's super weak at level 20 when you expect to have magical weapons.
Yeah, true unless you get any Artificer levels, Giant Barbarian, or a thrown magical item
The 2024 PHB glossary makes a distinction between Attack, Spell Attack Roll and Attack Roll. Hex and hunters mark both use “attack roll” verbiage, CME uses attack, which in the glossary is described as a weapon attack or unarmed strike. CME shouldn’t proc off of spell attacks.
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
Spell Attack
A spell attack is an attack roll made as part of a spell or another magical effect. See alsochapter 7 (“Casting Spells”).
CME
You conjure spirits from the Elemental Planes that flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. Until the spell ends, any attack you make deals an extra 2d8 damage when you hit a creature in the Emanation. This damage is Acid, Cold, Fire, or Lightning (your choice when you make the attack).
HEX
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
HUNTERS MARK
You magically mark one creature you can see within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
thats up to the DM to decide, i for one read it that it appeals also to the attacks of a scorching ray, and even if not, you will still have the problem of valor Bard & Bladesinger with 1 lvl dip of Warlock and weapon Mastery
twf with nick weapon = 3 attacks ( attack, extra attack, nick attack )
if you take the dual wielder feat you get another attack as a bonus action
as a valor bard or bladesinger you can replace one of your attacks with a cantrip ( eldritch blast )
now we are at 7 attacks
now we get max lvl ( w/o Sorcerer for scorching ray ) 17 valor bard / 2 ftr / 1 warlock
which gives us action surge or 7 attacks + 6 attacks ( action surge ) = 13 attacks, take that with a 9th lvl cme each hitting for 1d6 + 12d8 + 5 ( dex mod ) with 60% hit chance ( ignoring crits )
63 ( avg dmg ) x 0.6 = 32 / hit x 13 = 416 +/- a couple for eldritch blast
you could also add in a 5th lvl bestow curse ( no conc needed +1d8 ) and all of that is w/o magic items ....
that spell is so broken not even the change of +1d8 / spell lvl will fix it, the only way to fix it would be +1d8 / 2 spell lvls just like spirit shroud .....
Eldritch blast wouldn’t proc conjure minor elementals damage. Scorching ray wouldn’t proc conjure minor elementals damage. The wording is there. Even if it weren’t, both instances require spacing inside of 15 feet but outside of 5 feet so as to not have disadvantage. The set up is a pretty unique swathe of circumstances that should be rewarded by large damage numbers.
it takes two full turns to come online. It’s concentration based. In many situations that same valour bard is getting more damage out of a fireball from magical secrets than it is a conjure minor elementals. You guys need to breathe, it’s not a problem.
every once in a while your player will complete the set up, do a huge chunk of damage and feel great, that’s a good thing. More often than not, concentration, counter spell, spacing, low hp mobs or villains intelligent enough to leave a combat before dying will prevent the issue.
But also:
Action surge doesn’t double magic: “You can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action, except the Magicaction.”
and
Nick doesn’t double: “When you make the extra attack of the Lightproperty, you can make it as part of the Attackaction instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.”
I’m starting to worry you lot aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at?
Seems like a lot of fun with a Soul knife though.
CME works with spell attacks.
Making an Attack, page 25: When you take the Attack action, you make an attack. Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack. Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure..."
I’m starting to worry you aren’t even reading this thing. Where are my fellow DMs at? ;)
Alright now I’m excited. I come here for the legaleaze baby. That whether is in acknowledgment of the structure of the action, but if you follow that “Attack” definition we see the same glossary heading outlining an attack as a strike with a weapon or unarmed strike. The text you’re quoting again uses that “attack roll” distinction. I would argue that this “making an attack” structure text is more about the order of operations than the definition of what an Attack is. That definition is elsewhere.
I think you’ve got reasonable doubt from that block of text, but overall following the definitions more strongly supports what I’m arguing. As with all things it is gonna come down to DM discretion, and WOTC has never released anything that wasn’t a little nebulous. If our goal as a DM is to help balance CME, I have gotta say, it specifically uses “attack” where other spells use “attack roll” and that attack definition would suggest that its martial attacks only.
when you’re interpreting texts that self contradict you have to decide as a community which information supersedes what, and I wanna vote for definitions superseding texts that reference those definitions to outline operations.
End of the day, man it’s good to be back getting semantic in the threads about a game I love, gang.
It's talking about attacks. Making an attack includes spell attacks. It's written right there. I'm quoting a text that talks about what it is to "make an attack"; which is what CME says. You are quoting texts that describe what the Attack action is, an Attack roll, and a Spell attack. If we want to know what an "attack" is, then we look for the definition of "attack". You go the glossary, it tells you page 25, you go to page 25, it says that attacking with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or spell is an attack.
It comes down to DM discretion in the sense that, if they follow the PHB, they'll rule that a spell attack is an attack. If they rule like you say then they're houseruling. I don't know what's so complicated. Read the text that I quoted again. It's very specifically describing what making an attack means, and it includes spells. What's so complicated about that?
Balancing has nothing to do with this. Not allowing spell attacks to work with CME for balance purposes is fine, but it's houseruling.
Actually, using your own quote:
Attack Roll
An attack roll is a D20 Test that represents making an attack with a weapon, an Unarmed Strike, or a spell. See also chapter 1 (“D20 Tests”).
It says that an attack roll represents making an attack with a weapon, Unarmed Strike, or a spell. So, if you make an attack roll it means that you made an attack, which is what procs CME. How is this even remotely difficult to understand?
thats an attack roll, not an attack, separately defined.
it talks “about” attacks, it does not define them. They have a definition for that. It talks about the order of operations for making an attack, and acknowledges that it is the same order that is used for spell attack rolls. Which are separately defined.
you’re cherry picking a piece of text that isn’t intended to define anything, but speaks purely to how to order various actions. If you want to find what is classified as an “Attack” vs an “Attack Roll” they have definitions for those both. Using the verbiage they have defined, that appears in both forms in different spells, CME procs off of “Attacks” not “Spell Attack Rolls.” You’re ignoring definitions expressly written into this book to be used with the orders and interactions throughout in order to reverse engineer a separate definition for what an attack is from a block of text not intended to define anything.
It's very simple. You say I'm cherry picking a piece of text that isn't intended to define anything? Fine, let's go to the one that does. We're trying to define what procs CME. The spell description of CME says "any attack you make". Great, now we need to define what it means to "make an attack". Well, the most obvious section is the one titled "Making an Attack". That section very explicitly included spell attacks.
You, on the other side, are quoting the Attack action section, which is completely irrelevant. You're also quoting the section Attack roll, also irrelevant. The description of CME never mentions the Attack action nor Attack rolls. It only mentions Making an Attack, so that's the term you should be looking at. And that description includes spell attacks, it's clear as day.
We need a jury of impartial cleric mains here.
You are relying heavily on page 25 and let’s have a look.
MakinganAttack
When you take the Attack action, you make an attack.Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack . Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure:
“When you take the attack action you make an attack” Taking the attack action is making an attack.
“Some other actions, Bonus Actions, and Reactions also let you make an attack.” You may make an attack using your bonus action or reaction in some cases.
“Whether you strike with a Melee weapon, fire a Ranged weapon, or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure.” Or make an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has the following structure.
This does not define what an attack is, it outlines a structure for making an attack, one that is also used for spell attack rolls. It does however reaffirm that taking the attack action IS making an attack. When discussing spells however it again refers to the Spell Attack Roll, before returning the the intended structure or making an attack, it does not anywhere say “when you make a spell attack roll you make an attack” as we see with the attack action above in the same text.
What on earth is going on in this thread? Why are you pedantically arguing about obvious well established things? If you make any kind of attack roll that thing that triggered it was an attack. The only place there is any possible ambiguity is Grappling because Grappling is now part of the unarmed strike rules but does not involve an attack roll. But even there I think it's pretty clear it is not considered "an attack" since there is no attack roll involved.