Since the release of the Experts UA, we have seen Rangers and Bards move from Known spells to Prepared spells. This grants them a lot of versatility. Whatever else we might think of the change, it is a boost to their power in that regard.
That only leaves the Mage class group with any restrictions on spells. Sorcerers and Warlocks have a short list of Known spells, which has always been widely seen as a limitation for them. And Wizards only have access to as many spells as their DM makes available in the world.
So what would everyone like to see happen to these 3 classes in the future UA?
Personally I think the limits that Known spells limit placed on Sorcerers and Warlocks fits the theme of their class. Though I do feel that they both need access to a few more. The bloodline origin and patron should grant some bonus spells that are always known.
For Wizards, I think I would like them to consider any spells in their spellbook as always Prepared, as long as they have the book on them, and study it each day. I know it could be overpowered, but I think it fits them, and world set them apart from other classes in a unique way.
Alternatively, I could see them having only their ritual spells count as always Prepared at least, since they can always read them from their spellbooks. And then have them prepare other spells as normal. This compromise gives them great utility, but might not be too strong overall. They will always be limited by their DM for availability.
What do you think would be best for these 3 classes?
The Arcane spell list is the largest in the game. Simply granting access to all the spells like clerics or druids would clearly be overkill, and besides, there should be a difference between how wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks access spells. I'd say sorcerers might have a limitation on available schools of magic, just like Bard, but inverted, with subclasses granting access to additional schools. Don't know what to think about warlocks, their casting mechanic is likely to face bigger changes.
Agreed, the Arcane list is massive. I think that's probably why all of the arcane casters had such limitations in the first place. Sorcerers and Warlocks with a small number of Known spells, and Wizards limited by the individual DM directly.
The Wizards were a somewhat strange decision to leave the control almost completely in DM hands. One character could end the game with only spells they get to add to their book for free each level. And another could end with nearly all of them. This probably leads to a wide range of experiences with them. And there's not a lot of guidance for new DMs to get that balance right.
If all of the Mage classes remain as they are, they're going to feel like the most restricted spellcasters out there. Even if they have a big list to choose from, only ever knowing a few spells from the list will give a different impression. I think you're right, that they might restrict schools for Sorcerers and maybe Warlocks, then open other schools based on your subclass.
Agreed, the Arcane list is massive. I think that's probably why all of the arcane casters had such limitations in the first place. Sorcerers and Warlocks with a small number of Known spells, and Wizards limited by the individual DM directly.
The Wizards were a somewhat strange decision to leave the control almost completely in DM hands. One character could end the game with only spells they get to add to their book for free each level. And another could end with nearly all of them. This probably leads to a wide range of experiences with them. And there's not a lot of guidance for new DMs to get that balance right.
If all of the Mage classes remain as they are, they're going to feel like the most restricted spellcasters out there. Even if they have a big list to choose from, only ever knowing a few spells from the list will give a different impression. I think you're right, that they might restrict schools for Sorcerers and maybe Warlocks, then open other schools based on your subclass.
You also have to remember that Wizards get to add six spells to their book at Level 1, and two for free each level. Even if the DM gives them nothing in the way of spells, that's still 24 spells at 10th level, which is huge compared to the number of spells Sorcerers and Warlocks know at the same level.
So while the DM does have more control over what Wizards can access in their spell list, a Wizard player can completely ignore that and still play the class just fine.
Yes that's true. But also by comparison the ranger will have over 50 spells to choose from every day at level 10. And they are only a half caster, using the short Primal spell list, with a school restriction. Which puts the base Wizard options at half as much as a gish, and the Sorcerer and Warlock at about a quarter of the options.
Based on what we've seen so far, the Ranger might be the most versatile class in the game.
My point was only that the gap keeps getting wider with more classes moving to Prepared spells. And I was curious what people expected to see changed for the Mages, if anything. This one aspect of spell selection might not even be an issue for some people, and that's cool to hear too.
That's a fair point too. There are a lot of things to balance between classes, and some of them aren't immediately obvious. It's the unspoken things that lead to so many differences in player's perceptions on classes.
So do you think that the Mage classes will be largely unchanged in regards to spell selection and preparation?
I had this thought before, but for Wizards, increasing the number of spells that can be ritually cast and including a base class ability to create short lived spell scrolls for emergency use from the spell book might work to power creep their versatility in just the right way, so instead of keeping feather fall on your prepared spells that day, you could make a 24 hour duration scroll of feather fall at the end of your long rest because the party is climbing up a tower and jumping out the window might be a viable means of escape. (also, as an interesting thought experiment, since a wizard can conceptually take any spell from the list or learn any spell from their list over time then them having access to ALL arcane spells in their spellbook cant be unbalanced since the chance of any wizard having any given spell at any time in that book is non-zero, it seems counter intuitive at first, but its like Schrödinger's cat.)
For Sorcerers I think spell school limitations like bards work thematically and I don't really envision a world without them getting a spells automatically known list for each subclass. I would love some way of manipulating magic directly instead of via spells and metamagic but I just dont see that as viable this edition.
Warlocks are certainly the interesting one. Their Pact Casting Mechanic is already enough of a change to make you look at spells entirely differently, but in my heart of hearts, I feel like they should really just have a unique list of Eldritch spells that they alone gain access to. I mean, they had to make a damned DEAL for those spells, they should be something that would tempt Wizards. I could even see a case where there's no 'spell casting' and they just get a combination of 'at will invocations' and 'once per day arcanums' to use as class abilities. Might even dial back some of their multiclass shenanigans.
To be honest, the change in bard to use prepared spells is one of main concerns with the changes, even with the school limitations.
Just doesn't feel right to me, and leaves me wondering where its going to leave sorcerers and wizards. E.g how will these classes stand out as primary arcane casters when the bard ends up with more flexibility than the wizard who is restricted by spellbook?
Plus..the "feels" of it. I've always imagined bard magic as being tidbits of knowledge they pick up on their travels. Like specific recipes they just know. Whereas wizards, with their more advanced arcane knowledge learn how to write these spells (recipes) down in their recipe book. Err... I mean spellbook. Thus allowing a greater repertoire.
I had this thought before, but for Wizards, increasing the number of spells that can be ritually cast and including a base class ability to create short lived spell scrolls for emergency use from the spell book might work to power creep their versatility in just the right way, so instead of keeping feather fall on your prepared spells that day, you could make a 24 hour duration scroll of feather fall at the end of your long rest because the party is climbing up a tower and jumping out the window might be a viable means of escape. (also, as an interesting thought experiment, since a wizard can conceptually take any spell from the list or learn any spell from their list over time then them having access to ALL arcane spells in their spellbook cant be unbalanced since the chance of any wizard having any given spell at any time in that book is non-zero, it seems counter intuitive at first, but its like Schrödinger's cat.)
For Sorcerers I think spell school limitations like bards work thematically and I don't really envision a world without them getting a spells automatically known list for each subclass. I would love some way of manipulating magic directly instead of via spells and metamagic but I just dont see that as viable this edition.
Warlocks are certainly the interesting one. Their Pact Casting Mechanic is already enough of a change to make you look at spells entirely differently, but in my heart of hearts, I feel like they should really just have a unique list of Eldritch spells that they alone gain access to. I mean, they had to make a damned DEAL for those spells, they should be something that would tempt Wizards. I could even see a case where there's no 'spell casting' and they just get a combination of 'at will invocations' and 'once per day arcanums' to use as class abilities. Might even dial back some of their multiclass shenanigans.
I feel like anything that takes longer than 1 action/bonus action/reaction to cast should have the ritual tag. Honestly, there are a lot of spells that should be rituals that aren't, and it's frustrating. I don't say that because of the spell slots, I say that because I want more spells accessible though the ritual caster feat.
Haha, I agree. I love rituals. Not for power, but for the opportunities they bring to the game. Definitely one of the most underutilized great ideas in DnD.
Can’t speak to the warlock but the sorceror should stay a know caster not prepared. They should also have between 20-25 known spells by L20. The L4 ritual caster feat is also unclear as to whether you are choosing 1 spell list and taking 2 ritual spells known or are getting 6 rituals - 2 from each of the 3 spell lists. For ritual spells we could use more or have many utility spells labeled as ritual.I don’t expect the Wizard to change much - its powerful enough as is and other classes need to be brought up closer to it.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Currently in 5e, 5 classes prepare spells:
Artificer
Cleric
Druid
Paladin
Wizard (limited to those in spellbook)
Since the release of the Experts UA, we have seen Rangers and Bards move from Known spells to Prepared spells. This grants them a lot of versatility. Whatever else we might think of the change, it is a boost to their power in that regard.
That only leaves the Mage class group with any restrictions on spells. Sorcerers and Warlocks have a short list of Known spells, which has always been widely seen as a limitation for them. And Wizards only have access to as many spells as their DM makes available in the world.
So what would everyone like to see happen to these 3 classes in the future UA?
Personally I think the limits that Known spells limit placed on Sorcerers and Warlocks fits the theme of their class. Though I do feel that they both need access to a few more. The bloodline origin and patron should grant some bonus spells that are always known.
For Wizards, I think I would like them to consider any spells in their spellbook as always Prepared, as long as they have the book on them, and study it each day. I know it could be overpowered, but I think it fits them, and world set them apart from other classes in a unique way.
Alternatively, I could see them having only their ritual spells count as always Prepared at least, since they can always read them from their spellbooks. And then have them prepare other spells as normal. This compromise gives them great utility, but might not be too strong overall. They will always be limited by their DM for availability.
What do you think would be best for these 3 classes?
The Arcane spell list is the largest in the game. Simply granting access to all the spells like clerics or druids would clearly be overkill, and besides, there should be a difference between how wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks access spells. I'd say sorcerers might have a limitation on available schools of magic, just like Bard, but inverted, with subclasses granting access to additional schools. Don't know what to think about warlocks, their casting mechanic is likely to face bigger changes.
Agreed, the Arcane list is massive. I think that's probably why all of the arcane casters had such limitations in the first place. Sorcerers and Warlocks with a small number of Known spells, and Wizards limited by the individual DM directly.
The Wizards were a somewhat strange decision to leave the control almost completely in DM hands. One character could end the game with only spells they get to add to their book for free each level. And another could end with nearly all of them. This probably leads to a wide range of experiences with them. And there's not a lot of guidance for new DMs to get that balance right.
If all of the Mage classes remain as they are, they're going to feel like the most restricted spellcasters out there. Even if they have a big list to choose from, only ever knowing a few spells from the list will give a different impression. I think you're right, that they might restrict schools for Sorcerers and maybe Warlocks, then open other schools based on your subclass.
Yes that's true. But also by comparison the ranger will have over 50 spells to choose from every day at level 10. And they are only a half caster, using the short Primal spell list, with a school restriction. Which puts the base Wizard options at half as much as a gish, and the Sorcerer and Warlock at about a quarter of the options.
Based on what we've seen so far, the Ranger might be the most versatile class in the game.
My point was only that the gap keeps getting wider with more classes moving to Prepared spells. And I was curious what people expected to see changed for the Mages, if anything. This one aspect of spell selection might not even be an issue for some people, and that's cool to hear too.
That's a fair point too. There are a lot of things to balance between classes, and some of them aren't immediately obvious. It's the unspoken things that lead to so many differences in player's perceptions on classes.
So do you think that the Mage classes will be largely unchanged in regards to spell selection and preparation?
I had this thought before, but for Wizards, increasing the number of spells that can be ritually cast and including a base class ability to create short lived spell scrolls for emergency use from the spell book might work to power creep their versatility in just the right way, so instead of keeping feather fall on your prepared spells that day, you could make a 24 hour duration scroll of feather fall at the end of your long rest because the party is climbing up a tower and jumping out the window might be a viable means of escape. (also, as an interesting thought experiment, since a wizard can conceptually take any spell from the list or learn any spell from their list over time then them having access to ALL arcane spells in their spellbook cant be unbalanced since the chance of any wizard having any given spell at any time in that book is non-zero, it seems counter intuitive at first, but its like Schrödinger's cat.)
For Sorcerers I think spell school limitations like bards work thematically and I don't really envision a world without them getting a spells automatically known list for each subclass. I would love some way of manipulating magic directly instead of via spells and metamagic but I just dont see that as viable this edition.
Warlocks are certainly the interesting one. Their Pact Casting Mechanic is already enough of a change to make you look at spells entirely differently, but in my heart of hearts, I feel like they should really just have a unique list of Eldritch spells that they alone gain access to. I mean, they had to make a damned DEAL for those spells, they should be something that would tempt Wizards. I could even see a case where there's no 'spell casting' and they just get a combination of 'at will invocations' and 'once per day arcanums' to use as class abilities. Might even dial back some of their multiclass shenanigans.
To be honest, the change in bard to use prepared spells is one of main concerns with the changes, even with the school limitations.
Just doesn't feel right to me, and leaves me wondering where its going to leave sorcerers and wizards. E.g how will these classes stand out as primary arcane casters when the bard ends up with more flexibility than the wizard who is restricted by spellbook?
Plus..the "feels" of it. I've always imagined bard magic as being tidbits of knowledge they pick up on their travels. Like specific recipes they just know. Whereas wizards, with their more advanced arcane knowledge learn how to write these spells (recipes) down in their recipe book. Err... I mean spellbook. Thus allowing a greater repertoire.
I feel like anything that takes longer than 1 action/bonus action/reaction to cast should have the ritual tag. Honestly, there are a lot of spells that should be rituals that aren't, and it's frustrating. I don't say that because of the spell slots, I say that because I want more spells accessible though the ritual caster feat.
Haha, I agree. I love rituals. Not for power, but for the opportunities they bring to the game. Definitely one of the most underutilized great ideas in DnD.
Can’t speak to the warlock but the sorceror should stay a know caster not prepared. They should also have between 20-25 known spells by L20. The L4 ritual caster feat is also unclear as to whether you are choosing 1 spell list and taking 2 ritual spells known or are getting 6 rituals - 2 from each of the 3 spell lists. For ritual spells we could use more or have many utility spells labeled as ritual.I don’t expect the Wizard to change much - its powerful enough as is and other classes need to be brought up closer to it.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.